16:29:43 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #CSS
16:29:43 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/02/10-CSS-irc
16:31:47 <glazou_sick> Zakim, this will be Style
16:31:47 <Zakim> ok, glazou_sick; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 29 minutes
16:31:58 <glazou_sick> RRSAgent, make logs public
16:33:11 <plinss> plinss has joined #css
16:54:01 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
16:54:08 <Zakim> + +1.408.398.aaaa
16:54:33 <dsinger_> dsinger_ has joined #css
16:54:47 <dsinger_> zakim, who is here?
16:54:47 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.408.398.aaaa
16:54:48 <Zakim> On IRC I see dsinger_, plinss, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou_sick, shepazu, anne, szilles, CesarAcebal, TabAtkins, Bert, karl, Hixie, fantasai, trackbot, krijnh, Lachy, arronei
16:55:29 <Zakim> + +1.858.216.aabb
16:55:39 <plinss> zakim, aabb is me
16:55:39 <Zakim> +plinss; got it
16:55:48 <dethbakin> dethbakin has joined #css
16:55:49 <dsinger_> zakim, mute dsinger_
16:55:49 <Zakim> sorry, dsinger_, I do not know which phone connection belongs to dsinger_
16:56:18 <plinss> zakim, aaaa is dsinger_
16:56:18 <Zakim> +dsinger_; got it
16:56:18 <dsinger_> Zakim, 398.aaaa is dsinger_
16:56:19 <Zakim> sorry, dsinger_, I do not recognize a party named '398.aaaa'
16:56:25 <sylvaing> sylvaing has joined #css
16:56:33 <plinss> rrsagent, make logs public
16:56:40 <oyvind> oyvind has joined #css
16:56:43 <dsinger_> zakim, mute dsinger_
16:56:43 <Zakim> dsinger_ should now be muted
16:56:56 <dsinger_> Zakim, thank you
16:56:57 <Zakim> you are very welcome, dsinger_
16:56:57 <Zakim> + +95089aacc
16:57:05 <glazou_sick> Zakim: aacc is me
16:57:11 <Zakim> + +1.617.650.aadd
16:57:12 <glazou_sick> Zakim, aacc is me
16:57:12 <Zakim> +glazou_sick; got it
16:57:33 <dethbakin> +1.617.650.aadd is me
16:57:48 <Zakim> + +1.206.324.aaee
16:57:56 <sylvaing> Zakim, aaee is sylvaing
16:57:56 <Zakim> +sylvaing; got it
16:59:45 <Zakim> -dsinger_
17:00:17 <Zakim> + +1.408.636.aaff
17:00:31 <smfr> smfr has joined #css
17:00:45 <Zakim> +dsinger_
17:01:03 <dsinger_> dsinger_ has joined #css
17:01:17 <plinss> zakim, who is on the phone?
17:01:17 <Zakim> On the phone I see plinss, glazou_sick, +1.617.650.aadd, sylvaing, +1.408.636.aaff, dsinger_
17:01:24 <dsinger_> zakim, mute dsinger_
17:01:24 <Zakim> dsinger_ should now be muted
17:01:30 <plinss> zakim, aadd is dethbakin
17:01:30 <Zakim> +dethbakin; got it
17:01:40 <smfr> Zakim, aaff is me
17:01:40 <Zakim> +smfr; got it
17:01:47 <dsinger_> zakim, who is here?
17:01:47 <Zakim> On the phone I see plinss, glazou_sick, dethbakin, sylvaing, smfr, dsinger_ (muted)
17:01:50 <Zakim> On IRC I see dsinger_, smfr, oyvind, sylvaing, dethbakin, plinss, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou_sick, shepazu, anne, szilles, CesarAcebal, TabAtkins, Bert, karl, Hixie, fantasai,
17:01:53 <Zakim> ... trackbot, krijnh, Lachy, arronei
17:01:53 <Zakim> + +34.60.940.aagg
17:02:19 <CesarAcebal> zakim, aagg is me.
17:02:19 <Zakim> +CesarAcebal; got it
17:02:45 <Zakim> + +1.281.712.aahh
17:02:50 <dbaron> dbaron has joined #css
17:02:51 <TabAtkins> Zakim, aahh is me.
17:02:51 <Zakim> +TabAtkins; got it
17:03:08 <Zakim> +Bert
17:03:10 <Zakim> +[Mozilla]
17:03:16 <ChrisL> ChrisL has joined #css
17:03:26 <CesarAcebal> acebal@uniovi.es
17:03:27 <Zakim> +??P25
17:03:32 <dbaron> Zakim, [Mozilla] has dbaron
17:03:32 <Zakim> +dbaron; got it
17:04:20 <Zakim> +ChrisL
17:04:27 <Zakim> -CesarAcebal
17:04:53 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
17:04:54 <TabAtkins> Scribenick: TabAtkins
17:04:56 <bradk> bradk has joined #css
17:05:03 <arronei> zakim, microsoft is me
17:05:03 <Zakim> +arronei; got it
17:05:13 <TabAtkins> plinss: Anything extra for the agenda?
17:05:36 <TabAtkins> Topic: CSS 2.1 test suite
17:05:41 <TabAtkins> plinss: Anything interesting?
17:05:48 <TabAtkins> fantasai: Just fixing glitches in some of the publications
17:05:57 <TabAtkins> arronei: I'll send in a few more errors I found.  Simple stuff.
17:06:05 <TabAtkins> fantasai: Any progress on metadata?
17:06:11 <TabAtkins> arronei: I started it, but got sidetracked.
17:06:28 <TabAtkins> fantasai: I put up documentation on reftests on the wiki: what it is, how to write one
17:06:46 <TabAtkins> fantasai: There no reftests in the alpha right now, because there's no sensical indexing method right now.
17:07:17 <TabAtkins> fantasai: Plan for the next day or two is to list everything that's wrong with build scripts so we can fix them.
17:07:30 <TabAtkins> ChrisL: Since we can't have reftests at the moment, should we still be making them?
17:07:41 <TabAtkins> fantasai: Yes, it's a good format, and we'll get it published.
17:08:03 <Zakim> + +1.650.275.aaii
17:08:12 <TabAtkins> fantasai: You can write a test that is both a reftest and a self-describing test.
17:08:42 <plinss> zakim, aaii is bradk
17:08:42 <Zakim> +bradk; got it
17:09:02 <TabAtkins> plinss: Anything else in the test suite?
17:09:20 <TabAtkins> Topic: FtF - reconfirming dates
17:09:29 <dsinger_> Yes
17:09:29 <TabAtkins> plinss: Current have March 29 - 31.  Still the plan?
17:09:49 <TabAtkins> ChrisL: I thought that one was fine, but the *next* one had a request to change it?
17:09:53 <TabAtkins> fantasai: Yeah, we did.
17:10:06 <TabAtkins> glazou_sick: I wanted it on the agenda so the SVGWG would know about the firm date we have.
17:10:16 <dsinger_> zakim, unmute dsinger_
17:10:16 <Zakim> dsinger_ should no longer be muted
17:10:44 <TabAtkins> dsinger_: How do I get the official announcement out about location/suggestion to stay?  How do I get peopel to announce they're coming so I can arrange everything?
17:10:59 <TabAtkins> ChrisL: Just do a ??? form, it's easy.  And you'll be on the CC list so you'll see when people register.
17:11:09 <dbaron> s/??? form/WBS form/
17:11:13 <TabAtkins> fantasai: Or just email the WG and say "respond if you're coming".
17:11:23 <TabAtkins> glazou_sick: If you could publish a list of hotels asap, it would help.
17:11:35 <TabAtkins> plinss: There's a page on the w3c server with a bunch of pertinent information from previous meetings.
17:11:36 <glazou_sick> sylvaing: you can  dream :)
17:11:55 <smfr> sylvaing: bring your cheque book
17:12:01 <TabAtkins> dsinger_: I assume it'll be a small enough group we can do lunch in the cafeteria.
17:12:06 <TabAtkins> ChrisL: Sounds fine.
17:12:58 <TabAtkins> plinss: and if we do a joint meeting with SVG, can you handle that on site?
17:13:04 <TabAtkins> dsinger_: How many people are likely to join us?
17:13:18 <TabAtkins> glazou_sick: I think Doug said the SVGWG was fairly small, maybe 6-7 people
17:13:24 <TabAtkins> dsinger_: Ok.
17:13:42 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
17:13:43 <TabAtkins> plinss: Do we want to set the 31st as the joint meeting?
17:13:52 <TabAtkins> glazou_sick: I suggest we ask the SVGWG what's most convenient.
17:13:57 <dsinger_> zakim, mute dsinger_
17:13:57 <Zakim> dsinger_ should now be muted
17:13:59 <TabAtkins> plinss: We're okay with dedicating one day of our meeting?
17:14:03 <TabAtkins> glazou_sick: Yes, I think so.
17:14:21 <TabAtkins> plinss: Elika, can you set up a wiki page for the agenda, so we can start posting suggested topics?
17:14:27 <TabAtkins> fantasai: Will do.
17:14:49 <TabAtkins> Topic: Richard Ishida editor for ruby
17:14:52 <TabAtkins> several: in favor
17:14:57 <sylvaing> very in favor
17:15:10 <TabAtkins> ChrisL: Not only would he be a good editor, but he'll make tests and write tutorials and such.
17:15:30 <TabAtkins> glazou_sick: Does Richard know about it? ^_^
17:15:49 <TabAtkins> fantasai: Is the ruby spec on dev.w3.org, or doees it need to be moved?
17:15:57 <howcome> howcome has joined #css
17:16:00 <TabAtkins> Bert: I think it's already there, but he knows how to move it if necessary.
17:16:04 <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/cupertino-2010
17:16:25 <TabAtkins> ChrisL: I'm sure he doesn't have a huge patent portfolio, but still, might as well have him join.
17:16:45 <TabAtkins> Resolved: Richard Ishida will be editor of CSS Ruby spec.
17:17:09 <TabAtkins> Topic: Doug Shepers about deprecating DOMActivate event
17:17:11 <plinss> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2010JanMar/0009.html
17:17:16 <TabAtkins> plinss: Shepers sent an email a while back.
17:17:39 <dbaron> s/Shepers/Schepers/g
17:18:12 <TabAtkins> ChrisL: How does that affect CSS directly?  Are there any pseudoclass defs that explicitly mention DOMActivate?
17:18:23 <TabAtkins> plinss: There's a note about a potential issue with the :active pseudoclass.
17:18:30 <TabAtkins> plinss: But I don't believe it's the same concept.
17:18:54 <TabAtkins> plinss: Not hearing any objections, so I assume we should just say "Go for it"?
17:19:24 <TabAtkins> Resolved: approve deprecating DOMActivate
17:19:27 <TabAtkins> Topic: CSS3 values
17:19:38 <TabAtkins> plinss: One thing we were etalking about is accepting scinot in numbers
17:19:52 <TabAtkins> ChrisL: That relates to a response I made about the style attribute.
17:20:11 <TabAtkins> plinss: And they were saying it would be nice to accept scinot across the board rather than special-casing it for SVG.
17:20:24 <TabAtkins> ChrisL: I agree.  Special-casing is harder to work than just doing it everywhere.
17:20:43 <TabAtkins> plinss: There were some questions about precision, and roundtripping, and so on.  I think it makes sense to allow scinot across the board.
17:21:01 <TabAtkins> Bert: I don't see why we need scinot in, say, typography.
17:21:08 <TabAtkins> plinss: It will probably come in handy in transforms.
17:21:18 <TabAtkins> sylvaing: I don't quite see the use-case either.
17:21:28 <TabAtkins> plinss: Do you see sufficient harm in including it?
17:21:47 <TabAtkins> s/sylvaing/howcome/
17:21:56 <dsinger> dsinger has joined #css
17:22:01 <TabAtkins> howcome: There's a compatibility issue.  Can someone point me to a use-case?
17:22:02 <dbaron> In CSS1 and CSS2, '3.6e-10' is a dimension, where '3.6' is the number and 'e-10' is the unit :-)
17:22:13 <Zakim> + +1.408.996.aajj
17:22:18 <TabAtkins> smfr: [Gives example with transformations]
17:22:20 <dsinger> zakiom aajj is [apple]
17:22:29 <dsinger> zakim, [apple] has dsinger
17:22:29 <Zakim> sorry, dsinger, I do not recognize a party named '[apple]'
17:22:42 <TabAtkins> howcome: What does this look like?  2.6e4 or the like?
17:22:45 <TabAtkins> smfr: Yes.
17:23:06 <Zakim> -dsinger_
17:23:07 <TabAtkins> howcome: The notation has nothing to do with the precision.  It has to do with what people type.  I don't think people have to type e4 or whateveer.
17:23:16 <TabAtkins> ChrisL: Are you going to object?
17:23:34 <TabAtkins> howcome: I'm not going to object *yet*, but I'm not sure of the use-case.
17:23:56 <dbaron> It also means reading things like '2.6e4em'
17:24:25 <TabAtkins> plinss: The only thing it really precludes is us ever having a unit named "e".
17:24:34 <TabAtkins> dbaron: Or starting with e and followed by numeric characters.
17:24:45 <TabAtkins> howcome: My issue is really readability.  I don't think it's intuitive.
17:25:52 <TabAtkins> plinss: The use-case isn't really when it's like 2.6e-4, it's like 2.6e-30, which is way easier to read than .00000...26
17:26:01 <TabAtkins> bert?: In what cases is that not 0?
17:26:07 <dsinger> is allowing scientific notation *harmful*?
17:26:12 <TabAtkins> plinss: In matrix transforms it's not equivalent.
17:26:16 <dsinger> it may be unusual, but does that matter?
17:27:15 <TabAtkins> ChrisL: We've already had apple and mozilla already say they want to do it to harmonize CSS and SVG.
17:28:02 <TabAtkins> [argument about readability of scinot]
17:28:23 <TabAtkins> sylvaing: We have a way of writing large numbers.  When you get large enough it's no longer comfortable to use normal numbers.
17:28:24 <dbaron> I'd note there were a few fun (though far from insurmountable) issues with implementing scientific notation  (see Mozilla bug 302971):  it requires more pushback in the tokenizer than anything else does (with the possible exception of URL, depending on how you implement it); according to SVG it's only allowed for <number> and not <integer>; 
17:28:39 <TabAtkins> fantasai: My problem is that SVG and CSS have two different syntaxes.  I don't care about the details as much.
17:28:52 <TabAtkins> glazou_sick: Proposal is to add scinot to values in CSS.
17:28:56 <dbaron> If my memory is correct, the issue with SVG and CSS accepting different syntaxes applies only to SVG attributes and not actually CSS in SVG.
17:29:25 <TabAtkins> fantasai: If it's an issue with SVG attributes only, I don't think it's as much of an issue.
17:29:51 <TabAtkins> ChrisL: No, you can do things like put it in a style attribute, and it's weird for people to mix it with normal CSS and not be able to use notation broadly.
17:30:01 <TabAtkins> fantasai: But if it's not there yet, it's not an issue yet.
17:30:27 <TabAtkins> ChrisL: It is there yet.  The problem is that the Style Attribute spec now disallows it, but before it was allowed to mix the notations.
17:30:31 <TabAtkins> ChrisL: It's a blocking issue for SVG.
17:30:56 <TabAtkins> ChrisL: 1) allow it everywhere, anywhere there's a number 2) disallow it
17:31:16 <TabAtkins> fantasai: Anywhere there's a number, or numbers and dimensions
17:31:33 <TabAtkins> dbaron: There's 3 things: number, integer, and dimension. SVG doesn't allow it for integer, but doees for the other two.
17:31:55 <TabAtkins> ChrisL: If CSS wants to allow it for all 3, I'd be willing to take a change request back to SVG to harmonize it.
17:32:00 <TabAtkins> dbaron: I'd rather avoid it for integers.
17:32:14 <TabAtkins> glazou_sick: 1) Allow it only where it's permitted. 2) Allow it where SVG does. 3) Disallow it.
17:33:01 <TabAtkins> ChrisL: ONly allow it where the individual property says it's allowed.  Second option is to allow it everywhere that takes a number/dimension.
17:33:20 <TabAtkins> glazou_sick: In favor of 2
17:33:22 <dbaron> (1) is allow it when the property says it's permitted, and (2) is allowing it for all <number> / <dimension>
17:33:25 <TabAtkins> ChrisL: 2 for me as well
17:33:27 <TabAtkins> plinss: 2
17:33:38 <sylvaing> 2
17:33:42 <bradk> 1
17:33:42 <TabAtkins> smfr, tabatking: 2
17:33:44 <arronei> 2
17:33:50 <dbaron> I think if we allow it we should do (2).
17:34:15 <bradk> 2 is OK with me, but I think 1 would be more intuitive
17:34:16 <TabAtkins> howcome: I don't think we should allow it.  I think it's more readable and easier to parse.
17:34:18 <TabAtkins> howcome: 3
17:34:27 <Bert> 3 (It's just too costly, there are tons of implementations of CSS...)
17:34:35 <dethbakin> 2
17:34:59 <TabAtkins> ChrisL: Brad, would you be happy with 2?
17:35:06 <dbaron> s/tabatking/tabatkins/
17:35:15 <TabAtkins> bradk: 2 is fine
17:35:23 <TabAtkins> fantasai: This is for css3 only, right?
17:35:40 <TabAtkins> ChrisL: It would be for css3 only, but currently the style attribute for *any* language says you must align with css2.
17:35:45 <TabAtkins> fantasai: We'll deal with that separately.
17:36:00 <TabAtkins> Bert: What do you mean "css3 only"? This is a grammar question, not a property question.
17:36:03 <sylvaing> so we are implicitly OK with 'new' style sheets tripping up older UAs right ? since the new values will not be limited to new features such as transforms...
17:36:26 <TabAtkins> fantasai: What I mean is, I'm strongly against changing the css2.1 grammar to allow scinot.  I want it in a new css3 grammar.
17:36:42 <TabAtkins> Bert: The grammar in css2.1 says it's *the* grammar for CSS.
17:36:43 <fantasai> s/ want/'m ok with/
17:37:04 <TabAtkins> ChrisL: Right, the forward-compatible grammar allows it, css2.1 will disallow it.  We've had those problems before.
17:37:14 <TabAtkins> Bert: No, we only have 1 *core* grammar.
17:38:26 <TabAtkins> sylvaing: Once you make the change you'll have UAs failing stylesheets with the new value.
17:38:52 <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: Yeah, but that happens with any new property.  Legacy UAs will just drop that property.
17:39:05 <TabAtkins> sylvaing: I hate to point it out, but IE6 is still out there.
17:39:18 <TabAtkins> Bert: There are other implementations.
17:39:44 <TabAtkins> glazou_sick: I don't like that the first SVG harmonization effort is sidetracked by a large discussion over this small issue.
17:39:47 <TabAtkins> fantasai: It's not small.
17:39:54 <fantasai> and it's not the first
17:40:39 <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: Still not seeing why this is any differenet from a new property being dropped in legacy UAs.
17:40:56 <TabAtkins> sylvaing: It's not just new properties.  I could do width:100e1px and have it ignored in old browsers.  Is that fine?
17:41:17 <TabAtkins> howcome: Is this change worth what you get back from it?
17:41:29 <TabAtkins> howcome: This is a huge change in the core, and I don't see that it's worth it.
17:41:38 <TabAtkins> glazou_sick: If you look at new pages using transformations, it's a big deal.
17:41:58 <TabAtkins> ChrisL: Are we saying that Apple should go home with it's transitions spec because it requires us redefining the value of "number"?
17:42:13 <TabAtkins> howcome: It's a change for *everywhere*, though.  It's a huge change, and I don't think it's worth it for everything.
17:42:28 <TabAtkins> sylvaing: So you want it only for the properties that specifically need it?
17:42:34 <TabAtkins> howcome: I think that's a more reasonable proposition.
17:42:51 <TabAtkins> sylvaing: You'll have to look at a property when you parse a number?
17:43:03 <TabAtkins> Bert: You have to do that already, like with an+b
17:43:16 <TabAtkins> sylvaing: Right, but it doesn't require you to look at the context.
17:43:26 <glazou_sick> glazou
17:43:37 <TabAtkins> Bert: You can say in the grammar that we can find a specific use-case for that property.
17:44:06 <TabAtkins> ChrisL: So you're proposal, Bert, is to change SVG to something new so you don't have to change CSS?
17:44:19 <TabAtkins> Bert: SVG is an xml spec, css isn't.
17:44:40 <TabAtkins> ChrisL: Then I'll take that back to the SVG, and we'll drop saying that the style attribute spec is for SVG.
17:45:00 <TabAtkins> dsinger: I think the objection is "scinot is ugly and I don't want to see it".
17:45:39 <fantasai> Bert: That's one objection, the main one is that it requires changing the core grammar
17:46:06 <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: All the UAs that handle SVG *already* handle the notation.
17:46:55 <TabAtkins> ChrisL: If particular-property is required, that's okay.  But we can't just say something new that requires changing all of SVG.
17:47:12 <fantasai> glazou says something about millions of users
17:47:24 <fantasai> howcome: Nobody's asking for scinot in the width property.
17:47:38 <sylvaing> i understand that the new notation can be used as a css level hack. (I raised it). but if the alternative is property-specific grammar and preserving arbitrary differences between SVG and CSS, it's a risk worth taking imo
17:47:48 <fantasai> howcome: If it's per-property, then that's easier to swallow
17:48:14 <TabAtkins> [discussion about required stability of the grammar]
17:48:34 <glazou_sick> The Keepers of The Temple are back 
17:48:51 <TabAtkins> howcome: Bert points out that the Core Grammar has been stable, it's one of the core pillars.  You need really good arguments to change it, and I haven't seen them.
17:49:36 <TabAtkins> ChrisL: Where do we go from here?  9 votes for option 2, 2 votes for option 3.  There's a lot hanging on this.  Changing the CSS grammar, or requiring SVG to use a slightly different Style Attribute with subtle differences.
17:49:42 <TabAtkins> sylvaing: Is this something we want to discuss ftf?
17:50:02 <glazou_sick> CesarAcebal: you just rejoined the WG apparently :-) welcome back :-)
17:50:12 <TabAtkins> fantasai: There are a lot of things that SVG allow sin their syntax and 5 years later we find out about it.
17:50:36 <TabAtkins> howcome: There's a consensus route, where we ejust allow it in properties that specifically allow it.
17:50:36 <fantasai> s/syntax/syntax that's incompatible with CSS/
17:50:47 <TabAtkins> sylvaing: That's specific grammars.  Is that okay with you?
17:51:14 <TabAtkins> howcome: I don't think that's something new, with the specific grammars we use in different properties.
17:51:36 <TabAtkins> smfr: Then you need a new length, in addition to a new number.  It will spiral out of control.
17:51:58 <TabAtkins> plinss: The other side of your argument is that I dont' know if it will make Bert happy.  Bert, would you accept scinot in specific properties?
17:52:12 <TabAtkins> Bert: I don't like it, but I wouldn't object if it was localized enough.  I don't know where you'd need it, but sure.
17:52:14 <CesarAcebal> Thank you, Daniel! :) Yes, fortunately I was able to talk to my representative and (rarely being the University of Oviedo) this time he acted quickly to solve the error. ;) 
17:52:31 <TabAtkins> ChrisL: So you don't see any place where you need it?
17:52:45 <TabAtkins> Bert: The argument you gave, that I hear, is all about getComputedStyle.
17:53:12 <TabAtkins> plinss: People would like to have something from getComputedStyle and roundtrip it back to a stylesheet.
17:53:39 <TabAtkins> fantasai: Just have getComputedStyle return something proper for roundtripping
17:54:08 <TabAtkins> fantasai: We discussed this a few weeks ago and concluded that we should specify a minimum accuracy.  The first round will have some truncating, but after that there's no problem.
17:54:18 <TabAtkins> smfr: The problem is that you may end up with a long series of 0s.
17:54:47 <TabAtkins> dsinger: You'll be given a number in scinot, and you'll convert it to a number *wrongly*.  It woudl be better to auto-translate it.
17:55:15 <TabAtkins> Bert: I'd still like to see an example of where this is needed.
17:55:17 <ChrisL2> ChrisL2 has joined #css
17:55:28 <TabAtkins> Bert: Even if I dont' use it, it's still there.  It's on the books.
17:55:40 <ChrisL2> rrsagent, here
17:55:40 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2010/02/10-CSS-irc#T17-55-40
17:55:47 <TabAtkins> howcome: It can be used in harmful ways, for obfuscation or as a switch for browser compatibility.
17:56:20 <TabAtkins> smfr: I talked about getComputedStyle when I first brought it up, but the real problem is that there's no number value api that doens't involve converting through a string.
17:56:39 <TabAtkins> smfr: We don't strictly need scinot, but it's good to have it roundtrip through javascript.
17:57:00 <TabAtkins> howcome: I think we should define that api.
17:57:08 <TabAtkins> ChrisL2: That fixes that part of the problem, but not all of it.
17:57:21 <TabAtkins> plinss: A very important part of the proposal is harmonization with SVG, and that's very important.
17:57:36 <TabAtkins> plinss: This is the very first thing we're getting into here, we're going to say "No"?
17:57:39 <Zakim> -glazou_sick
17:57:49 <TabAtkins> howcome: So are you saying that we'll just say "yes" to every single harmonization effort?
17:58:03 <Zakim> +glazou_sick
17:58:05 <TabAtkins> dsinger: Right, but if the w3c was moderately consistent about what is a "number".
17:58:32 <TabAtkins> plinss: We're not talking about svg coming up with a "foobar" property, that we can just say "Eh, keep it yourself".  We're talking about SVG having to define a new language.
17:59:00 <TabAtkins> sylvaing: What is the benefit for authors and implementors to have different grammars for numbers?
17:59:10 <TabAtkins> sylvaing: What is the difference?  Why not use the supersete?
17:59:22 <TabAtkins> howcome: Because you make it more difficult to implement CSS.
17:59:55 <TabAtkins> sylvaing: It's already implemented, though.
18:00:06 <TabAtkins> howcome: Yeah, that's an argument for Opera, but not for everyone.
18:00:15 <glazou_sick> TabAtkins: I want that to be minuted !!! :-)
18:00:25 <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: The only major browser that doesn't do SVG is IE, and sylvaing is in favor.
18:00:39 <TabAtkins> Bert: We're not talking about browsers, we're talking about CSS.
18:00:47 <Zakim> -[Apple]
18:01:01 <TabAtkins> width: 0x64px;
18:01:15 <fantasai> that's hex, Tab
18:01:19 <TabAtkins> Bert: If we harmonize the language, CSS would become an xml language.  There will always be important details.
18:01:35 <ChrisL2> strawman, no-one suggested that
18:01:56 <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: But I don't think "how to write a number" is something that people expect to be different between languages.
18:02:13 <TabAtkins> sylvaing: I still want to answer to what the benefit is for authors to ahve them work differently.
18:02:42 <TabAtkins> sylvaing: Why should it be different?  It's confusing for authors.
18:03:12 <TabAtkins> howcome: I think the pain is minor to when people read stylesheets that used scinot to create browser-switches.
18:03:24 <TabAtkins> plinss: I don't think obfuscation is a strong enough argument.
18:03:33 <TabAtkins> howcome: I think the browser-switch is strong.
18:03:41 <TabAtkins> howcome: It's a change in the core grammar.
18:03:52 <Zakim> -dethbakin
18:03:54 <glazou_sick> bye dethbakin 
18:04:02 <TabAtkins> sylvaing: I understand that, but if the problem is having property-specific grammars, I think it's worse.
18:04:16 <glazou_sick> plinss: discussion going nowhere at this point
18:04:24 <dethbakin> dethbakin has left #css
18:04:30 <TabAtkins> howcome: We see the problem that IE comments has caused.
18:04:55 <TabAtkins> plinss: This isn't going to be resolved.  We'll pick it up later.
18:05:10 <TabAtkins> howcome: I still think best is to use it where we need it.
18:05:19 <TabAtkins> sylvaing: We should get SVG into this conversation as well.
18:05:40 <Zakim> -smfr
18:05:41 <Zakim> -ChrisL
18:05:45 <Zakim> -sylvaing
18:05:46 <TabAtkins> glazou_sick: Can ChrisL write it up, since he has interests on both sides?
18:05:46 <Zakim> -arronei
18:05:47 <Zakim> -[Mozilla]
18:05:48 <Zakim> -plinss
18:05:50 <Zakim> -Bert
18:05:51 <Zakim> -glazou_sick
18:05:58 <Zakim> -bradk
18:06:00 <Zakim> -fantasai
18:06:02 <TabAtkins> Resolved: ChrisL will summarize the discussion about scinot on www-style.
18:06:05 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
18:06:07 <Zakim> -TabAtkins
18:06:08 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
18:06:10 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.408.398.aaaa, +1.858.216.aabb, plinss, dsinger_, +95089aacc, +1.617.650.aadd, glazou_sick, +1.206.324.aaee, sylvaing, +1.408.636.aaff, dethbakin, smfr,
18:06:14 <Zakim> ... +34.60.940.aagg, CesarAcebal, +1.281.712.aahh, TabAtkins, Bert, dbaron, fantasai, ChrisL, arronei, +1.650.275.aaii, bradk, [IPcaller], +1.408.996.aajj, dsinger
18:06:14 <ChrisL2> zakim, list attendees
18:06:14 <Zakim> sorry, ChrisL2, I don't know what conference this is
18:13:10 <glazou_sick> glazou_sick has left #css
18:21:53 <fantasai> dbaron: You tend to make a lot of useful and interesting notes on IRC.
18:22:06 <sylvaing> yes, he does
18:22:14 <dbaron> yeah, when it's not possible to get a word in on the phone
18:22:14 <sylvaing> ..and not just on IRC
18:22:16 <fantasai> dbaron: I suggest biasing a little more towards speaking up
18:22:22 <fantasai> :)
18:22:48 <fantasai> maybe you just have to be a little more agressive about getting airtime?
18:27:17 <shepazu> shepazu has joined #css
18:30:46 <dbaron> I think lately I've done a bit too much of calling in to meetings where most of the other people are there in-person.  It's much harder to interrupt in that situation.
19:05:24 <smfr> smfr has left #css
19:13:49 <fantasai> shepazu: Where does SVG allow scientific notation?
19:14:19 <fantasai> shepazu: just in SVG properties in SVG style attrs? In all properties in SVG style attrs? In all SVG properties everywhere? In all properties linked to an SVG document? Other?
19:14:53 <shepazu> fantasai: I would have to confirm, but I think it's anywhere we allow an SVG-Length
19:15:25 <fantasai> what's an SVG-Length?
19:16:36 <CesarAcebal> CesarAcebal has left #css
19:17:57 <fantasai> shepazu: Here's a better question,
19:18:13 <fantasai> shepazu: which version of SVG allows scientific notation in properties (as opposed to attributes)?
19:18:24 <fantasai> shepazu: because I'm not finding that in 1.1
19:18:44 <shepazu> fantasai: sorry... distracted by telcon while in noisy Apple store... can we follow up by email?
19:19:08 <fantasai> shepazu: sure
19:29:59 <Lachy> Lachy has joined #css
19:30:07 <Lachy> Lachy has joined #css
19:39:48 <fantasai> Bert: Can you look into why the .htaccess for Test/CSS2.1/20100127 is not able to set charset headers?
19:52:57 <Bert> Oh, yes, I saw you message. I'll try, fantasai.
19:58:15 <anne> anne has left #css
20:25:26 <Bert> Fantasai, I think I fixed it.
20:25:32 <Bert> AddDefaultCharset only applies to text/html and text/plain, not to application/xhtml+xml or text/css.
20:25:38 <Bert> I added "AddCharset utf-8 .xht .css" for those files.
20:25:47 <Bert> But for that, I had to reduce the strength of a rule in a higher directory.
20:35:03 <Zakim> Zakim has left #CSS
21:06:13 <fantasai> Bert: I think reducing the strength of the higher rule was the important bit, the explicit Shift_JIS is now taking effect too
21:06:42 <fantasai> Bert: Thanks
21:07:35 <Bert> OK, I didn't test all the thousands of files :-) but if you find an error let me know.
21:07:56 <Bert> (I may not see it tonight, but my computer stays on.)
21:28:27 <fantasai> hehe, ok :)
22:12:38 <Lachy> Lachy has joined #css
22:14:25 <shepazu> shepazu has joined #css