IRC log of aapi on 2010-02-09

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to
15:01:21 [Zakim]
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15:01:36 [Andi]
zakim, this will be aapi
15:01:44 [davidb]
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rrsagent, make logs public
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ok, Andi, I see WAI_PFWG(AAPI)10:00AM already started
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rrsagent, make log world
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scribe: Andi
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Meeting: AAPI
15:04:49 [Zakim]
15:04:50 [davidb]
Zakim, who is on phone?
15:04:59 [davidb]
Zakim, Mozilla is David_Bolter
15:05:29 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, davidb.
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+David_Bolter; got it
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chair: Andi
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chair: Cynthia
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15:13:46 [cyns]
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15:14:20 [Andi]
topic: goals and schedule for next draft
15:14:51 [Andi]
AS: 4.7 Actions, 4.8 Events, and 5.0 Special Document Processing need the most work
15:15:15 [Andi]
CS: is WAI-ARIA working to a target date?
15:15:22 [Andi]
AS: no - have to process comments
15:15:53 [Andi]
AS: got about 50 new comments or disagreement with disposition of comments on previous LC draft.
15:16:25 [Andi]
CS: April would be the soonest? Seems doable but do have SXSW in March.
15:16:53 [Andi]
CS: May seems more doable. Can work on these sections in a concentrated way the first two weeks of May.
15:17:31 [Andi]
AS: maybe we should split up the work into smaller pieces to get started before May.
15:20:40 [Andi]
action: all to read UAIG front to back
15:21:22 [Andi]
action: Andi to review all bugs and prioritize the ones that impact the Actions, Events, and Special Document sections
15:22:00 [Andi]
action: Andi to review all bugs and prioritize the ones that we have not dealt with yet at all in the UAIG.
15:22:18 [Andi]
topic: Open issues:
15:24:30 [Andi]
15:24:48 [Andi]
issue 97:
15:25:13 [Andi]
AS: we added a table of defaults when required states/properties not provided
15:26:18 [Andi]
DB: at an abstract level, are we adding attributes to the DOM that aren't there.
15:26:32 [Andi]
CS: was thinking we were just adding attributes to the accessibility API.
15:27:13 [Andi]
DB: so we're saying the UA should act as if the ARIA attributes were provided but not modify the DOM
15:28:24 [Andi]
action: Andi to create a bug to clarify the text around supplying default values for required properties that were not provided
15:28:43 [Andi]
DB: something like "behave as if the following default values were provided"
15:29:07 [Andi]
DB: then issue 97 should be closable
15:30:36 [Andi]
15:32:11 [Andi]
issue 98 ( and 99 (
15:32:51 [Andi]
text at top of 5.3 addresses this - close these
15:33:23 [Andi]
issue 107:
15:36:31 [Andi]
section 4.8.2 currently discusses node changes
15:36:48 [Andi]
DB: would make sense as a caution or alert but don't know if we do that in W3C documents
15:37:42 [Andi]
CS: could add paragraph after the two bullets that discuss node changes
15:39:21 [Andi]
issue 108:
15:40:29 [Andi]
15:40:49 [Andi]
15:41:16 [Andi]
CS: this is about ID's on the accessible tree nodes
15:41:30 [Andi]
CS: could add a bullet to the list in section 4.1
15:42:13 [Andi]
CS: up to the user agent to get this right and authors should be free of having to worry about it
15:42:23 [Andi]
DB: not sure we need to say anything
15:42:36 [Andi]
DB: if others do, I'm fine with that.
15:43:07 [Andi]
CS: every node in the accessibility tree has an ID
15:43:49 [Andi]
DB: in MSAA, you have a bunch of data that specifies an accessible object - use ID to communicate with AT
15:44:21 [Andi]
CS: maybe something about managing IDs in the accessibility tree is the responsibility of the UA, not the author
15:44:41 [Andi]
action: David to talk to Rich for clarification on issue 108
15:45:01 [Andi]
issue 115:
15:46:08 [Andi]
15:47:38 [Andi]
addressed by bullet 4 in the 4.4 Role Mapping
15:47:46 [Andi]
close issue 115 and refer to this section
15:48:05 [Andi]
issue 359:
15:48:52 [Andi]
CS: in API mappings, it would go in description field
15:49:06 [Andi]
CS: valid issue - should deal with before our next draft
15:49:10 [Andi]
DB: think this is AT issue
15:49:39 [Andi]
CS: if aria-describedby points to a big chunk of HTML, how would you pass that in a description field
15:50:27 [Andi]
DB: don't know if we're going to be able to do this for ARIA 1.0
15:51:25 [Andi]
CS: maybe something like "UAs MAY provide a way for the user to navigate to an associated describedby and ATs SHOULD provide such a method."
15:52:21 [Andi]
DB: think this is a good idea but think it would require platform API changes
15:52:26 [Andi]
CS: it's the sort of thing ATs do.
15:52:50 [Andi]
CS: useful for anyone to be able to do
15:53:18 [Andi]
DB: example in e-mail - image that is described by a data grid
15:53:36 [Andi]
CS: AT could navigate it
15:53:44 [Andi]
DB: not sure how AT would know where to do
15:55:08 [Andi]
close this issue with text such as Cynthia suggested above.
15:57:00 [Andi]
issue 379:
15:57:16 [Andi]
CS: don't think we can get IE to change implementation
15:57:26 [Andi]
DB: would rather change implementation than have diverging ones
15:57:55 [Andi]
AS: Apple would disagree with implementing this the way IE has done it
15:58:21 [Andi]
DB: do we even need it in the spec?
15:58:41 [Andi]
CS: the IE implementation is per the advice of the MSAA inventors
15:58:55 [Andi]
CS: conflict caused by IA2
15:59:28 [Andi]
CS: concept of relationships that are other than the tree relationships doesn't exist in MSAA
15:59:37 [Andi]
CS: IA2 has the concept of additional relationships
15:59:49 [Andi]
CS: doesn't map well to MSAA or UIA
16:01:09 [Andi]
CS: pretty sure there's no way in UIA to expose the relationship
16:01:28 [Andi]
DB: think maybe it shouldn't belong in the spec
16:01:34 [Andi]
DB: is anyone using this?
16:03:52 [Andi]
CS: would recommend restructuring HTML so you don't need aria-owns
16:04:05 [Andi]
DB: it's in jquery
16:04:11 [Andi]
CS: that means it's everywhere
16:04:49 [Andi]
CS: specific to one accessibility API - so may not make sense to have it in ARIA at all
16:05:07 [Andi]
DB: would have to argue that the accessibility forecast is worse if we continue with diverging implementations
16:05:31 [Andi]
CS: two of the major APIs don't have this
16:05:41 [Andi]
DB: ATK has a way of exposing any kind of relationship
16:05:47 [Andi]
CS: not sure about Apple
16:05:54 [Andi]
DB: sounds like they do
16:07:03 [Andi]
CS: exists already in IE8 - will be around for a long time
16:07:39 [Andi]
CS: can ask for feature in UIA but don't think would get it
16:10:48 [Andi]
action: David and Cynthia to take the issue of aria-owns to the ARIA TF
16:11:11 [Zakim]
16:11:11 [davidb]
atk relations:
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16:11:16 [Zakim]
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WAI_PFWG(AAPI)10:00AM has ended
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Attendees were Andi_Snow-Weaver, David_Bolter, Cynthia_Shelly
16:12:27 [Andi]
zakim, bye
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rrsagent, make minutes
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I have made the request to generate Andi
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s/issues/98)/issues/98 )/
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rrsagent, make minutes
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I have made the request to generate Andi
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s/98)/98 )/
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rrsagent, make minutes
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I have made the request to generate Andi