20:00:40 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #svg
20:00:40 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/02/04-svg-irc
20:00:42 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
20:00:42 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #svg
20:00:44 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
20:00:44 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see GA_SVGWG()3:00PM already started
20:00:45 <trackbot> Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
20:00:45 <trackbot> Date: 04 February 2010
20:01:06 <pdengler> pdengler has joined #svg
20:01:35 <Zakim> +??P1
20:01:42 <ed> Zakim, ??P1 is me
20:01:42 <Zakim> +ed; got it
20:02:42 <pdengler> is this the correct suite? http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Test/20061213/htmlObjectHarness/full-color-prof-01-f.html
20:03:02 <Zakim> +Shepazu
20:03:15 <ed> http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/test/harness/
20:03:41 <ChrisL> ChrisL has joined #svg
20:08:00 <Zakim> +ChrisL
20:12:24 <ChrisL> Scribe: Patrick
20:12:32 <ChrisL> Scribenick: pdengler
20:12:38 <ChrisL> Chair: Erik
20:12:46 <pdengler> ed: Proposed agenda items
20:13:08 <pdengler> http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/test/harness/
20:13:10 <pdengler> http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/test/harness/
20:13:13 <pdengler> anthony: #1 Test suites.  These have been updated 
20:13:50 <shepazu> s/anthony: #1 Test suites.  These have been updated/ed: #1 Test suites.  These have been updated/
20:13:50 <pdengler> pdengler: Should we push out test suites for XHTML
20:14:26 <pdengler> shepazu: Is Microsoft thinking about supporting XHTML mime type and extension?
20:14:33 <pdengler> anthony: pdengler : really?
20:14:59 <ChrisL> s/anthony/chris/
20:15:48 <ChrisL> zakim, mute shepazu
20:15:48 <Zakim> Shepazu should now be muted
20:15:59 <ChrisL> zakim, unmute shepazu
20:15:59 <Zakim> Shepazu should no longer be muted
20:16:01 <ChrisL> :)
20:16:21 <pdengler> ed: Is is possible to move the harness to XHTML 
20:16:37 <ChrisL> yes, no problem
20:16:40 <pdengler> ChrisL: We can serve XHTML with no problem
20:18:20 <Zakim> +??P3
20:18:32 <ChrisL> zakim, ??P3 is anthony
20:18:32 <Zakim> +anthony; got it
20:18:46 <pdengler> ed: Who can we get to make another harness....
20:19:05 <pdengler> anthony: Is that the only thing left?
20:19:18 <pdengler> ed: No. XHTML should be trivial.
20:19:43 <pdengler> ed: Many references images were missing or incorrect. Have you done updates on those?
20:19:51 <pdengler> anthony: No, haven't done that
20:20:23 <pdengler> shepazu: Is it different betwen XHML and HTML?
20:20:31 <pdengler> ChrisL: Shouldn't be
20:21:17 <pdengler> action: anthony Create XHTML harness for test suites
20:21:17 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2721 - Create XHTML harness for test suites [on Anthony Grasso - due 2010-02-11].
20:21:35 <pdengler> action: anthony Fix up references images and missing images on test suites
20:21:35 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2722 - Fix up references images and missing images on test suites [on Anthony Grasso - due 2010-02-11].
20:22:37 <pdengler> ed: Issue : Changes in spec vs. changes in errata
20:22:47 <pdengler> topic: Changes in spec vs. changes in errata
20:23:31 <pdengler> ed: Was reading the process document regarding how to proceed with eratta. It does seem we need to keep them up to date as well as get reviews.
20:24:05 <pdengler> ChrisL: Groups must collected feedback and 'should' do so in timely manner. 
20:24:30 <pdengler> ChrisL: One method is to mark proposed eratta and approved errata but no one (?) has ever done it
20:25:10 <pdengler> ChrisL: Review is done by publishing the whole entire document; changes need to be marked for reviewers
20:25:27 <Zakim> -Shepazu
20:25:33 <pdengler> pdengler: Is the appending up to date?
20:25:42 <Zakim> +Shepazu
20:25:48 <pdengler> ed: Should be.  And there should be links to the SVC change logs
20:25:51 <ChrisL> s/Review is/Other way is to get review/
20:26:08 <ChrisL> s/SVC.CVS/
20:27:46 <pdengler> shepazu: I don't know if it's useful to maintain the eratta seperately except as a transtional thing
20:28:29 <pdengler> ChrisL: We were using that process but then we started moving them directly into the spec.  
20:29:15 <pdengler> shepazu: Before move on can we cover anthony's gradient issue
20:29:33 <pdengler> topic: Proposed working for gradient rendering
20:29:36 <ed> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2010Feb/0005.html
20:30:17 <ed> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2010Feb/0006.html
20:30:35 <pdengler> anthony: Read this and kind of agree with this.  If you read the parts about which order things are applied.
20:31:12 <pdengler> shepazu: What is the gradient normal
20:31:21 <pdengler> ed: perpendicular (90 degrees)
20:31:32 <ed> s/ed/CL/
20:32:33 <pdengler> ed: it's 90 degrees in it's own coordinate system, but if you skew it should no longer be normal
20:32:52 <ed> s/ed:/CL:/
20:33:06 <pdengler> anthony: Will make this clearer
20:35:20 <pdengler> shepazu: make sense to align for illustrator
20:35:37 <pdengler> ed: Haven't heard about this issue, but we will fix it
20:36:07 <pdengler> ChrisL: All of the editors do it the same way, and some of the viewers do it the same, some do it different
20:36:35 <ed> s/haven't heard about this issue/haven't seen any bugreports on this issue/
20:40:10 <pdengler> ChrisL: Will revise wording on gradients next week
20:40:54 <pdengler> ed: topic: read-only vs. non read-only IDLs
20:41:27 <ed> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2010Feb/0008.html (point #3a)
20:42:03 <pdengler> pdengler: Seem to be inconsitencies here.
20:42:27 <pdengler> ed: Would have been good to have Cameron here.
20:43:23 <pdengler> ed: Not suppose to be able write to animated values, which is what the IDL is trying to express.  
20:44:13 <pdengler> ed: if you find other places, send a pointer and we will look at those
20:44:50 <pdengler> ed: mutable/immutable would be clearer but not sure if IDL allows this to be expressed
20:46:03 <pdengler> pdengler: We will investigate this on our side and if we find anything still as an issue, we will get back
20:46:37 <pdengler> shepazu: keep in mind WebIDL for 2.0 will help remove these inconsistencies
20:48:05 <pdengler> topic:Line caps drawing on zero length lines 
20:48:35 <ed> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2010Feb/0010.html
20:48:59 <shepazu> agenda+ CSS @style spec comments
20:49:14 <pdengler> pdengler: If we make the adjustment to the spec that Erik suggested "update F.5 section to also say that 'butt' linecaps means nothing is drawn"
20:50:39 <pdengler> action: pdengler update sectoin on line caps (F.5) do read that reflect nothing is drawn for 'butt' linecaps
20:50:39 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2723 - Update sectoin on line caps (F.5) do read that reflect nothing is drawn for 'butt' linecaps [on Patrick Dengler - due 2010-02-11].
20:51:52 <pdengler> ed: topic: CSS spec changes
20:52:53 <pdengler> shepazu: the CSS working group has the style spec for the 'style' attribute; how to parse unit-less values
20:53:05 <pdengler> shepazu: Did you (ChrisL) send the response
20:53:41 <ChrisL> ACTION-2718?
20:53:41 <trackbot> ACTION-2718 -- Chris Lilley to write wording about unitless property values for CSS Styling Attributes Level 1 spec -- due 2010-02-01 -- OPEN
20:53:41 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2718
20:54:38 <pdengler> shepazu: Things like stroke-width, if you use a unit, that's defined in the coordinate space (root), it could have unpredictable events.  
20:55:10 <ed> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/filters.html#EnableBackgroundProperty
20:56:00 <pdengler> shepazu: Comments are due on the 6th (or 8th)
20:56:03 <ed> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/painting.html#FillOpacityProperty
20:56:04 <pdengler> ChrisL: I will get them in
20:56:44 <ed> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/propidx.html
20:58:33 <pdengler> ChrisL: Discussion with CSS group wasn't as fruitful this time as they had other items on their agena
20:59:33 <pdengler> ChrisL: Didn't get to any stuff that applies to SVG. These are on wednesday
21:00:10 <pdengler> pdengler: Is there a list of SVG specifics that we want to discuss with CSS?
21:00:14 <eseidel> eseidel has joined #svg
21:00:32 <pdengler> shepazu: We should put this on a wiki page for CSS collaborations.  This is the stuff the task for should be covering
21:01:05 <anthony> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/FX-Taskforce
21:02:36 <pdengler> shepazu: There are folks in css trying to push forward items like animation, but they are not really actively engaged
21:03:38 <pdengler> shepazu: There are folks on the FX working group that will help push this forward; we will be isolate folks who specialize in graphics and move forward more quickly
21:04:00 <pdengler> pdengler: Isn't tranisitions moving along
21:04:19 <pdengler> ChrisL: It is. 
21:04:46 <pdengler> shepazu: We can have some say on how they apply to SVG as this is not yet articulated
21:05:07 <pdengler> ed: I should publish some examples I made for SVG Open with CSS transitions and SVG
21:06:25 <pdengler> topic: 'symbol' and 'display: none' clarification 
21:06:43 <ed> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2010Feb/0011.html
21:07:27 <pdengler> ed: Display should be respected and the spec is clear, except for x,y; firefox and webkit respect them anyway
21:08:54 <pdengler> ChrisL: The idea was to define a symbol indepdenent of how it was going to use; where you have no edit control (i.e. symbol library)
21:09:51 <pdengler> shepazu: neither symbol nor marker necessarily makes sense in that context
21:10:09 <pdengler> ChrisL: Original thiking was a single SVG file with symbols in them
21:10:43 <pdengler> ChrisL: Fragment was made mandatory, but shouldn't have had to
21:11:04 <ChrisL> ISSUE: non mandatory fragments on use
21:11:04 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-2303 - Non mandatory fragments on use ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2303/edit .
21:11:21 <pdengler> shepazu: suppose you had a file full of symbols and you wanted to reference just one of them, you would still have to download the whole file
21:12:08 <pdengler> shepazu: at what point does it make sense to split them up? these could be good recommendations for external references.
21:12:59 <pdengler> pdengler: Isn't SVG fonts just another symbol/marker
21:13:14 <pdengler> ChrisL: Yes, SVG fonts is just another use case of symbol/marker
21:13:44 <pdengler> ed: It does give it some new behavior for textual representation
21:14:05 <pdengler> shepazu: Now looking out, how can we cut things down to simplify implementations
21:14:19 <pdengler> ChrisL: needs analysis as sometimes you find specifics that are required
21:14:49 <pdengler> shepazu: Let's look at the differences between nested SVG, symbol and marker, e.g. and we might find the Symbol and marker are just short hands for nested SVG
21:15:43 <pdengler> ChrisL: If we are talking about refactoring, the number of times you use markers is low, and if you want markers, you should have a polymarker elements for example
21:15:49 <ChrisL> I updated ISSUE-2303 to add some details, and assigned it to SVG Core 2.0
21:17:36 <ChrisL> (discussion on markers and symbols and interactivity)
21:18:35 <pdengler> topic: Further error processing clarifications in XHTML for example
21:18:40 <ed> http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/ua-tests/bold-italic-strikethrough-element-inherit.xhtml
21:19:28 <pdengler> ed: Think it's more of XHTML/HTML 
21:19:51 <pdengler> ChrisL: Not necessariy; could be style issue. 
21:20:56 <ChrisL>  <b> is the same as <span style="font-weight: bold"> so should inherit the same way
21:21:09 <pdengler> ChrisL: This scenario, really being a style issue should behave in this manner (inherit appropriately)
21:21:57 <pdengler> ChrisL: Think about strike through on <textPath>. you have to calculate geometries if you want a smooth strike-through
21:22:11 <pdengler> ed: Not sure what happens if you do vertical text
21:22:52 <pdengler> ChrisL: Underdefined for non-horizontal text
21:23:13 <pdengler> shepazu: does there exist another convention for strike through for vertical text? Find out if they use strike through
21:23:30 <pdengler> ChrisL: Japanesese has some examples here
21:24:54 <pdengler> topic: SVGElementInstance mixed support
21:25:33 <pdengler> ed: not deprecated.  it needs to be correctly implemented (as has been done in opera and webkit). I you have test cases that shows inconsistencies, that would be a good thing to contribute
21:25:53 <pdengler> shepazu: (still on the older topic) Japanese has double-strike through
21:27:05 <pdengler> ed: only way to get to these is through correspondingElement to get the actual elements referenced
21:28:21 <pdengler> action: pdengler Update spec on Minor Correction to DOM language http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/publish/svgdom.html#RelationshipWithDOM2Events
21:28:22 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2724 - Update spec on Minor Correction to DOM language http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/publish/svgdom.html#RelationshipWithDOM2Events [on Patrick Dengler - due 2010-02-11].
21:29:07 <pdengler> ed: topic SVGSVGElement 'width' and 'height'
21:30:28 <shepazu> ACTION-4?
21:30:28 <trackbot> ACTION-4 does not exist
21:31:03 <pdengler> anthony: save SVGSVGElement 'width' and 'height' for next telcon
21:31:13 <shepazu> ACTION-2724?
21:31:13 <trackbot> ACTION-2724 -- Patrick Dengler to update spec on Minor Correction to DOM language http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/publish/svgdom.html#RelationshipWithDOM2Events -- due 2010-02-11 -- OPEN
21:31:13 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2724
21:31:34 <ChrisL> zakim, list attendees
21:31:34 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been +1.425.868.aaaa, ed, Shepazu, ChrisL, anthony
21:31:47 <ChrisL> zakim, aaaa is Patrick
21:31:47 <Zakim> +Patrick; got it
21:31:50 <ChrisL> zakim, list attendees
21:31:50 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been +1.425.868.aaaa, ed, Shepazu, ChrisL, anthony, Patrick
21:32:04 <ChrisL> rrsagent, make minutes
21:32:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/04-svg-minutes.html ChrisL
21:33:26 <Zakim> -ChrisL
21:33:38 <Zakim> -ed
21:33:43 <Zakim> -anthony
21:34:08 <Zakim> -Patrick
21:34:18 <Zakim> -Shepazu
21:34:19 <Zakim> GA_SVGWG()3:00PM has ended
21:34:20 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.425.868.aaaa, ed, Shepazu, ChrisL, anthony, Patrick
21:35:55 <ChrisL> Patrick I sent out the minutes for you
21:36:25 <ChrisL> The only trick is to append .text to the html URI to get a plain text version
21:36:32 <ChrisL> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/04-svg-minutes.html,text
22:01:02 <eseidel> eseidel has joined #svg