18:59:59 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #webapps
18:59:59 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/02/03-webapps-irc
19:00:01 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
19:00:01 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #webapps
19:00:03 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be DOM3
19:00:03 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see IA_WebApps(DOM3)2:00PM scheduled to start now
19:00:04 <trackbot> Meeting: Web Applications Working Group Teleconference
19:00:04 <trackbot> Date: 03 February 2010
19:00:07 <smaug> just a second
19:00:10 <Zakim> IA_WebApps(DOM3)2:00PM has now started
19:00:11 <Zakim> +Shepazu
19:00:38 <smaug> shepazu: I think some emails I sent also to G.Smith
19:01:36 <Zakim> +??P0
19:01:49 <smaug> Zakim, ??P0 is Olli_Pettay
19:01:49 <Zakim> +Olli_Pettay; got it
19:03:32 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
19:03:52 <Travis> Travis has joined #webapps
19:19:12 <Travis> scribe: travis
19:19:16 <Travis> scribeNick: travis
19:19:29 <Travis> Topic: Resize Event issues
19:19:53 <Travis> <summary> IE fires a lot of resize events as users manipulate the browser frame.
19:20:12 <Travis> ... previous versions of Gecko were more conservative (fired one resize after an interval)
19:20:31 <Travis> ... new versions of Gecko attempt to fire resize as quickly as possible.
19:20:55 <Travis> ... To prevent issues, a first resize event is dispatched synchronously, and subsequent events are async.
19:21:02 <Travis> smaug: (something like that)
19:22:41 <timeless_mbp> timeless_mbp has joined #webapps
19:36:11 <Travis> travis: The resize event is async.
19:36:50 <Travis> ... We should recommend that it be fired before paint, but not make it a hard requirement (otherwise, it's not really testable).
19:37:15 <Travis> Topic: zoom
19:37:30 <Travis> shepazu: most browsers allow a "page zoom."
19:37:41 <Travis> ... different from text size changes
19:42:13 <smaug> 3663
19:42:44 <Zakim> +Josh_Soref
19:46:15 <Nikunj> Nikunj has joined #webapps
19:46:29 <timeless_mbp> window.screen.pixelDepth ?
19:46:43 <Travis> (something like that)
19:47:27 <timeless_mbp> hrm, nope :(
19:48:15 <smaug> timeless_mbp: http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/dom/interfaces/base/nsIDOMWindowUtils.idl#404
19:48:20 <smaug> only for chrome for now
19:48:34 <timeless_mbp> cute
19:49:02 <Travis> screen.deviceXDPI and screen.logicalXDPI and screen.systemXDPI. 
19:49:59 <smaug> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=416226
19:51:31 <Travis> IE's documentation on how to do this stuff: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc849094(VS.85).aspx
19:52:12 <Travis> Also, a blog post on the subject: http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2008/03/25/internet-explorer-8-and-adaptive-zoom.aspx
19:54:19 <Travis> timeless_mbp: With my device, I zoom in and the browser gives me more detail because the viewport is effectively busy.
19:54:36 <Travis> ... There are ways already without a zoom event to get more detail...
19:55:31 <Travis> ... Afraid of authors hard-coding particular experiences into certain DPIs.
20:00:48 <Travis> shepazu: My point of view: as a developer, I want to push the envelope and use resize to build those experiences.
20:01:28 <timeless_mbp> http://issues.hudson-ci.org/browse/HUDSON-5457
20:01:41 <timeless_mbp> the text at the bottom of the image attachment comes to mind
20:01:53 <Travis> shepazu: I'll put something in the editor's draft and you can review it and we'll discuss.
20:02:04 <Travis> travis: I would love to see scenarios from SVG as well...
20:02:04 <timeless_mbp> http://issues.hudson-ci.org/secure/attachment/19079/trend.png
20:02:57 <Travis> shepazu: A scenario: inline SVG in HTML and zoom just SVG. Makes sense to be element-level zoom at that point.
20:03:59 <timeless_mbp> we can right click :)
20:04:06 <timeless_mbp> ... in mobile
20:04:15 <smaug> yeah, N900 right click works pretty well 
20:04:18 <Travis> timeless_mbp: From a mobile browser POV, specific zoom on one part of the page means more UI, which means more real-estate and complexity for the end-user.
20:04:43 <Travis> shepazu: If there's a use-case out there we should at least consider it for the spec.
20:05:28 <Travis> smaug: Is the SVG zoom something else than page-level zoom? If so, then browsers can use SVG zoom to fullfill those use cases.
20:05:45 <timeless_mbp> s/fullfill/fulfill/
20:06:29 <timeless_mbp> http://www.romancortes.com/blog/pure-css-coke-can/
20:06:32 <Travis> shepazu: Will we get the same set of questions from CSS (CSS transforms) when they try to use scalar transforms.
20:09:32 <Travis> shepazu: Let's drop this topic for now...
20:13:25 <timeless_mbp> Topic: reentrancy
20:13:43 <timeless_mbp> Travis: ... ie is the wild west
20:14:11 <timeless_mbp> ... firefox only seems to allow two levels deep for event reentrancy
20:14:25 <timeless_mbp> smaug: sometimes this is a js engine recursion limit
20:14:35 <timeless_mbp> ... sometimes ~144 nested events
20:14:44 <timeless_mbp> ... was this mutation events?
20:15:07 <timeless_mbp> Travis: yes... using synchronous event handlers triggered from mutation events
20:15:17 <timeless_mbp> smaug: we do have mutation guards
20:15:33 <timeless_mbp> ... if the dom gets into a strange state, we just stop doing things (firing events)
20:15:46 <timeless_mbp> shepazu: it's not that you have a policy on events, it's that you have a threshold ?
20:16:05 <Travis> Topic: Mutation Events and Re-entrancy
20:16:28 <timeless_mbp> smaug: this relates to pages being really evil with mutation events
20:16:40 <timeless_mbp> ... it was the source of many security issues many years ago
20:16:42 <Travis> travis: Wondering how many levels of re-entrancy to allow, and whether we should spec this?
20:17:28 <Travis> Action: Travis to create a test page for mutation event re-entrancy
20:17:28 <trackbot> Created ACTION-484 - Create a test page for mutation event re-entrancy [on Travis Leithead - due 2010-02-10].
20:18:22 <smaug> Event recursion test http://mozilla.pettay.fi/moztests/events/event_loop.html
20:18:34 <Travis> (Thanks!)
20:18:45 <smaug> not for mutation events 
20:18:50 <smaug> but just some generic event
20:22:07 <Travis> timeless_mbp: Reason I'm calling in is because of Nokia's interest in gesure events.
20:22:39 <timeless_mbp> s/gesure/gesture/
20:28:31 <smaug> timeless_mbp: you cause some strange echo :/
20:33:59 <Zakim> -Olli_Pettay
20:34:02 <Zakim> -Josh_Soref
20:50:12 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
20:50:19 <Zakim> -Shepazu
20:50:21 <Zakim> IA_WebApps(DOM3)2:00PM has ended
20:50:23 <Zakim> Attendees were Shepazu, Olli_Pettay, [Microsoft], Josh_Soref
20:50:36 <shepazu> trackbot: end telcon
20:50:36 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
20:50:36 <Zakim> sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
20:50:37 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
20:50:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/03-webapps-minutes.html trackbot
20:50:38 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
20:50:38 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/03-webapps-actions.rdf :
20:50:38 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Travis to create a test page for mutation event re-entrancy [1]
20:50:38 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/03-webapps-irc#T20-17-28