15:48:00 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdfa
15:48:00 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/01/28-rdfa-irc
15:48:04 <manu> zakim, this will be rdfa
15:48:04 <Zakim> ok, manu; I see SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM scheduled to start in 12 minutes
15:48:09 <manu> Meeting: RDFa in XHTML Task Force
15:48:14 <manu> Chair: Manu Sporny
15:48:18 <manu> Scribe: Mark Birbeck
15:48:30 <manu> Present: Manu_Sporny, Ivan_Herman
15:48:34 <manu> Regrets: Ben_Adida
15:49:26 <manu> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2010Jan/0063.html
15:49:57 <manu> Previous: http://www.w3.org/2010/01/21-rdfa-minutes.html
15:50:02 <manu> rrsagent, make logs public
15:50:05 <manu> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:50:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/01/28-rdfa-minutes.html manu
15:53:03 <manu> ACTION: Manu to create basic RDFa API document.
15:53:21 <manu> ACTION: Manu to test CORS support in latest browsers.
15:53:55 <manu> s/in latest browsers/for RDFa vocabs in latest browsers/g
15:54:00 <manu> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:54:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/01/28-rdfa-minutes.html manu
15:54:17 <markbirbeck> markbirbeck has joined #rdfa
15:54:51 <manu> Present+ Mark_Birbeck
15:55:57 <ivan> we shall see
15:56:16 <manu> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:56:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/01/28-rdfa-minutes.html manu
15:56:46 <markbirbeck> Sure Manu.
15:56:51 <markbirbeck> Calling in a mo'.
15:56:57 <ShaneM> ShaneM has joined #rdfa
15:57:01 <Steven> Steven has joined #rdfa
15:57:02 <manu> scribenick: markbirbeck
15:58:46 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
15:58:46 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
15:58:47 <Zakim> SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has now started
15:58:47 <Zakim> +Dialer
15:58:48 <Zakim> -Dialer
15:58:53 <ivan> ????
15:58:54 <Zakim> SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has ended
15:58:55 <Zakim> Attendees were Dialer
15:59:03 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
15:59:03 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
15:59:05 <Zakim> SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has now started
15:59:06 <Zakim> +Ivan
15:59:25 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:59:35 <markbirbeck> zakim, codes?
15:59:35 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, markbirbeck.
15:59:41 <markbirbeck> zakim, code?
15:59:41 <Zakim> the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck
15:59:51 <manu> zakim, I am IPcaller
15:59:51 <Zakim> ok, manu, I now associate you with [IPcaller]
16:00:15 <Zakim> + +0208761aaaa
16:00:25 <markbirbeck> zakim, i am aaaa
16:00:26 <Zakim> +markbirbeck; got it
16:01:20 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
16:01:20 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
16:01:22 <Zakim> +Steven
16:01:58 <Steven> zakim, mute me
16:01:58 <Zakim> Steven should now be muted
16:02:07 <Steven> ack me
16:03:05 <markbirbeck> Topic: Action Items
16:03:19 <manu> http://www.w3.org/2010/01/21-rdfa-minutes.html
16:03:48 <markbirbeck> ACTION: Manu to contact Dan Brickley to discuss Microdata to RDFa mapping.
16:03:57 <markbirbeck> --done
16:04:32 <markbirbeck> Dan has been talking to Hixie on WHATWG mailing-list to see what the overlap between Microdata and RDFa is.
16:05:03 <markbirbeck> There seems to be a feeling that Microdata is at the very least a subset of RDFa.
16:05:43 <markbirbeck> It may be possible to create a profile to use XSLT to map from one to the other.
16:06:04 <markbirbeck> ACTION: Manu to get in touch with LibXML developers about TC 142.
16:06:08 <markbirbeck> --continues
16:06:30 <markbirbeck> ACTION: Manu to get in touch with LibXML developers about TC 142.
16:06:41 <markbirbeck> ACTION: Mark to generate spec text for @token and @prefix
16:06:48 <markbirbeck> --continues
16:06:53 <Zakim> +ShaneM
16:07:01 <markbirbeck> ACTION: Mark to generate spec text for pulling in external vocabulary documents
16:07:06 <markbirbeck> --continues
16:07:36 <markbirbeck> ACTION: ShaneM to identify the requirements for html2ps and see about getting reSpec to support them.
16:07:40 <markbirbeck> --continues
16:11:36 <manu> zakim, who is making noise?
16:11:48 <Zakim> manu, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: [IPcaller] (18%), markbirbeck (47%), Ivan (55%)
16:11:49 <ivan> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/
16:12:03 <manu> zakim, mute markbirbeck
16:12:03 <Zakim> markbirbeck should now be muted
16:12:14 <markbirbeck> It's traffic outside.
16:12:24 <markbirbeck> I don't see why I'm echoing though.
16:13:16 <markbirbeck> Right. :) Traffic is making noise, but I don't see why it causes echo.
16:17:13 <markbirbeck> great news though. :)
16:17:37 <markbirbeck> Topic: RDFa Community Updates
16:17:50 <markbirbeck> Manu: Had a chance to read Benji's comments?
16:18:50 <markbirbeck> ... Benji wrote blog-post that was quite critical of RDFa community.
16:19:27 <markbirbeck> ... He feels that pushing Microdata is a better option for adoption.
16:20:06 <markbirbeck> ... His past posts of the years are along much the same lines, that the solution should be a collection of tokens, a la Microformats.
16:20:39 <ivan> q+
16:20:40 <markbirbeck> ... We should take his comments seriously, since he represents an identifiable set of concerns.
16:21:30 <markbirbeck> Ivan: We did discuss the possibility of defining Microdata as a profile of RDFa, and I would be in favour of that.
16:21:51 <markbirbeck> ... But this post talks of removing things that it doesn't seem possible to remove, such as @resource.
16:22:10 <Steven> q+
16:22:11 <markbirbeck> ... He doesn't really give an argument for removal.
16:22:16 <Steven> ack ivan
16:22:43 <markbirbeck> ... Same goes for ranting against CURIEs -- we're working on that and there's not much more we can say.
16:23:06 <markbirbeck> ... The idea that one set of attribute names is better than another is really a matter of faith.
16:23:29 <markbirbeck> ... Whilst we don't care that much about the attribute names, a big problem is existing deployments.
16:23:31 <manu> ack steven
16:23:32 <markbirbeck> q+
16:24:00 <markbirbeck> Steven: I've been working on RDFa for at least 7 years, and it's not as if it suddenly popped out of nowhere.
16:24:10 <markbirbeck> ... It had discussion, use-cases, etc.
16:24:29 <markbirbeck> ... Microdata comes out of nowhere, but somehow it's presented that RDFa-proponents are in the wrong.
16:24:59 <markbirbeck> ... Appreciate the work of bridge-building, but we have to remember that no-one was asking for Microdata.
16:25:05 <ivan> q+
16:25:11 <markbirbeck> zakim, unmute me
16:25:11 <Zakim> markbirbeck should no longer be muted
16:25:18 <manu> ack markbirbeck
16:25:32 <Steven> zakim, mute me
16:25:32 <Zakim> Steven should now be muted
16:25:51 <manu> Mark: I missed the call on Microdata profiles - I think I agree with Steven, I'm not sure I understand what the benefit is.
16:26:30 <manu> Mark: We've been working on this for years and Microdata is in flux - and is progressively getting closer and closer to RDFa.
16:27:00 <manu> Mark: I don't mind the dialog, but we risk damaging deployment if we change all the attribute names.
16:27:12 <manu> Mark: It's sort of religious - one attribute is better than another.
16:27:18 <manu> Mark: but there is another way to view this.
16:27:41 <manu> Mark: Changing rel to itemprop may be a bad change - @rel and @rev already has a place in HTML.
16:27:54 <manu> Mark: We've been very careful to re-use pre-existing semantic elements in HTML.
16:28:49 <manu> Mark: Microdata duplicates @rel and @rev - so there is a problem here - that new attributes are being defined for old concepts.
16:29:28 <Steven> zakim, mute mark
16:29:28 <Zakim> markbirbeck should now be muted
16:29:28 <manu> zakim, mute markbirbeck
16:29:29 <Zakim> markbirbeck was already muted, manu
16:30:32 <manu> q+ to discuss harm that continued bike-shedding may cause.
16:30:41 <manu> zakim, I am [IPcaller]
16:30:41 <Zakim> ok, manu, I now associate you with [IPcaller]
16:30:49 <markbirbeck> Ivan: Changing attribute names is out of the question.
16:30:51 <manu> zakim, who is on the queue
16:30:51 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is on the queue', manu
16:30:55 <manu> zakim, who is on the queue?
16:30:55 <Zakim> I see ivan, [IPcaller] on the speaker queue
16:31:07 <manu> zakim, I am +IPcaller
16:31:07 <Zakim> sorry, manu, I do not see a party named '+IPcaller'
16:31:14 <markbirbeck> ... On the other hand I don't mind about building bridges.
16:31:26 <Steven> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:31:26 <Zakim> On the phone I see Ivan, [IPcaller], markbirbeck (muted), Steven (muted), ShaneM
16:31:32 <Steven> zakim IP is Manu
16:31:37 <Steven> zakim, IP is Manu
16:31:37 <Zakim> sorry, Steven, I do not recognize a party named 'IP'
16:31:47 <Steven> zakim, [IP is manu
16:31:47 <Zakim> +manu; got it
16:31:51 <Steven> q?
16:31:58 <ivan> ack ivan
16:32:09 <Steven> ack [
16:32:09 <Zakim> [IPcaller], you wanted to discuss harm that continued bike-shedding may cause.
16:32:29 <markbirbeck> Manu: I'm increasingly concerned about discussions with people like Wikipedia.
16:33:03 <markbirbeck> ... The problem was that although we know the background to Microdata popping up from nowhere, the outside world doesn't.
16:33:28 <markbirbeck> ... They just see a 'fight' going on.
16:33:39 <markbirbeck> ... I think it's harming adoption.
16:34:52 <markbirbeck> ... If others implement a Microdata API in the browser, then that could affect adoption.
16:35:30 <markbirbeck> q+
16:36:09 <manu> ack markbirbeck
16:37:49 <manu> Mark: I don't know if a GRDDL-approach, mapping Microdata to RDFa would work... we've had that discussion before.
16:38:13 <manu> Mark: I think we should focus on RDFa API and getting RDFa out there more.
16:38:32 <ShaneM> I don't think the transform can be isomorphic.
16:38:33 <ivan> q+
16:38:42 <manu> Mark: RDFa and Microdata are fundamentally not equal.
16:39:20 <manu> Mark: This is the same thing that happened with Microformats - RDFa kept going and I think Microformats are coming to an end soon.
16:39:36 <manu> ack ivan
16:39:38 <markbirbeck> zakim, mute me
16:39:38 <Zakim> markbirbeck should now be muted
16:39:57 <manu> q+
16:39:57 <markbirbeck> Ivan: Wiki would be a good place to start on some of these ideas.
16:40:50 <markbirbeck> ... (That was response to Mark saying that we should get on and document some of our ideas on RDFa API.)
16:40:52 <manu> +1
16:41:16 <markbirbeck> ... If as Mark says, that RDFa is superior to Microdata, then we should be explaining this.
16:42:15 <ShaneM> pre-defined prefixes simplifies immediately
16:42:18 <manu> ack manu
16:42:24 <markbirbeck> ... If someone doesn't want the full functionality of RDFa it should be clear how to use it.
16:43:12 <markbirbeck> Shane would like it minuted that he is paying attention.
16:43:49 <manu> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2010Jan/0059.html
16:43:50 <markbirbeck> Topic: RDFa vocabs
16:44:24 <markbirbeck> Sorry...was foolishly following previous minutes!
16:44:38 <ivan> q+
16:44:54 <manu> s/RDFa vocabs/Pre-loading prefixes/g
16:44:58 <markbirbeck> Topic: RDFa prefix pre-loading
16:45:18 <markbirbeck> Ivan: At a theoretical and technical level, these things are not totally unrelated.
16:45:44 <ShaneM> +1
16:45:54 <markbirbeck> ... They shouldn't need to be presented as being distinct.
16:45:59 <markbirbeck> zakim, unmute me
16:45:59 <Zakim> markbirbeck should no longer be muted
16:46:27 <manu> Mark: One of the things on the vocab front is this gradual rejection that follow-your-nose is everything.
16:46:57 <manu> Mark: The idea that everything must be able to be worked out on the fly by default - you need to support follow-your-nose
16:47:15 <manu> Mark: But saying that stuff is predefined isn't necessarily a bad thing - we shouldn't be scared of doing that.
16:47:54 <manu> Mark: This is where Microdata and Microformats falls down - they don't have the follow-your-nose mechanism.
16:47:59 <manu> Mark: RDFa does.
16:48:12 <manu> Mark: as long as you can ensure that the two co-exist, then why not pre-load prefixes?
16:48:42 <manu> Ivan: Then we largely agree, right?
16:49:19 <manu> Mark: The downside to this follow-your-nose is that it is used as an argument against pre-defined vocabs.
16:49:43 <Steven> zakim, mute mark
16:49:43 <Zakim> markbirbeck should now be muted
16:49:48 <manu> Ivan: Google uses the same mechanism... but it has been said all along that a  processor would cache a bunch of these namespaces.
16:49:59 <manu> q+
16:50:15 <manu> Ivan: caching is a fundamental part of the web.
16:50:21 <manu> ack manu
16:50:24 <markbirbeck> Ivan: Not disimilar to an editor caching DTDs.
16:50:26 <ShaneM> I want to do this RIGHT NOW
16:51:17 <markbirbeck> Manu: But which vocabularies would we put into the spec? Which ones have longevity?
16:51:28 <markbirbeck> ... Top 20 from CC?
16:51:32 <markbirbeck> q+
16:51:40 <markbirbeck> s/CC/prefixcc/
16:51:40 <ivan> ack ivan
16:51:55 <ShaneM> q+ to talk about the process for picking vocabs
16:52:13 <markbirbeck> zakim, unmute me
16:52:13 <Zakim> markbirbeck should no longer be muted
16:52:14 <manu> ack mark
16:52:31 <manu> Mark: I think we shouldn't be scared of doing this - not do this now.
16:52:50 <manu> Mark: We should certainly think all of this stuff through... there isn't a principle that we shouldn't have to pre-define things.
16:53:08 <markbirbeck>   <html>
16:53:08 <markbirbeck>     <head profile="http://rdf.data-vocabulary.org/profile/2009">
16:53:08 <markbirbeck>       ...
16:53:09 <markbirbeck>     </head>
16:53:09 <markbirbeck>     <body>
16:53:10 <markbirbeck>       <div typeof="Person">
16:53:11 <markbirbeck>         <span property="name">John Smith</span>
16:53:13 <markbirbeck>         <span property="nickname">Smithy</span>
16:53:15 <markbirbeck>         <span property="url">http://www.example.com</span>
16:53:17 <markbirbeck>         <span property="affiliation">ACME</span>
16:53:19 <markbirbeck>         <span rel="address">
16:53:21 <markbirbeck>           <span property="locality">Albuquerque</span>
16:53:23 <markbirbeck>         </span>
16:53:25 <markbirbeck>         <span property="title">Engineer</span>
16:53:27 <markbirbeck>         <a href="http://darryl-blog.example.com/" rel="friend">Darryl</a>
16:53:29 <markbirbeck>       </div>
16:53:31 <markbirbeck>     </body>
16:53:33 <markbirbeck>   </html>
16:54:18 <manu> Mark: This approach might be better - since it's encapsulated in a @profile attribute.
16:54:39 <manu> Mark: That is better than Microformats and it's scalable.
16:54:49 <Steven> zakim, mute mark
16:54:49 <Zakim> markbirbeck should now be muted
16:55:16 <manu> unmute, mark
16:55:16 <Steven> ack mark
16:56:44 <manu> Mark: This would allow RDFa processors to understand the URL to mean something special.
16:57:17 <manu> Mark: It's a key to tell the authors that their data would be processed in a particular way.
16:57:45 <ivan> zakim, mute mark
16:57:45 <Zakim> markbirbeck should now be muted
16:58:03 <manu> Mark: Maybe we should defer the pre-loaded prefixes until we can have this discussion
16:58:19 <manu> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:58:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/01/28-rdfa-minutes.html manu
16:58:22 <manu> q+
16:58:24 <markbirbeck> Mark: Not intending to take the discussion in other direction, just trying to point out that there may be something even better than fixing prefix values.
16:58:28 <manu> ack ShaneM
16:58:29 <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to talk about the process for picking vocabs
16:59:08 <markbirbeck> Shane: But people forget to use @profile, or they don't have access to <head>, etc.
16:59:10 <ivan> q+
16:59:15 <manu> ack manu
16:59:30 <manu> +1 to Shane's comment
16:59:33 <markbirbeck> ... So having the ability to use "dc" or "foaf" without having to define it, would be very useful.
16:59:43 <markbirbeck> ... Let's just do this now.
16:59:53 <ShaneM> rule one for picking prefixes.  vocabs defined by the W3C are predefined.
17:00:23 <Zakim> -ShaneM
17:00:25 <markbirbeck> Bye everyone.
17:00:25 <Zakim> -Ivan
17:00:29 <Zakim> -markbirbeck
17:00:30 <Zakim> -Steven
17:00:30 <Zakim> -manu
17:00:31 <Zakim> SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has ended
17:00:34 <Zakim> Attendees were Ivan, [IPcaller], +0208761aaaa, markbirbeck, Steven, ShaneM, manu
17:00:39 <manu> me Mark - I'll clean up the minutes
17:00:47 <markbirbeck> Great...thanks Manu.
17:00:48 <manu> zakim, draft minutes
17:00:48 <Zakim> I don't understand 'draft minutes', manu
17:00:54 <manu> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:00:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/01/28-rdfa-minutes.html manu
17:01:06 <markbirbeck> Note that omitting @profile is a red herring.
17:01:17 <manu> how so?
17:01:27 <markbirbeck> People raise it, and say that no-one ever used @profile in Microformats.
17:01:30 <markbirbeck> That's true.
17:01:36 <manu> ahh, yes
17:01:38 <manu> I see your point
17:01:46 <markbirbeck> But in RDFa if you miss out all the namespaces you're scuppered anyway.
17:01:57 <manu> The reason they didn't use it was because it had no effect on processing.
17:02:00 <markbirbeck> So there's already a basic requirement on authors to add something.
17:02:05 <markbirbeck> Yes, exactly.
17:02:33 <markbirbeck> But if you miss out the Google namespace in your RDFa, you won't get indexed properly.
17:02:40 <markbirbeck> Same in Yahoo!.
17:03:03 <markbirbeck> So all we're saying is instead of adding 10 URIs, just add one.
17:03:04 <manu> The #seo people will definitely make a point of it
17:03:15 <markbirbeck> A point of getting it right?
17:03:19 <manu> yes
17:03:23 <markbirbeck> Exactly.
17:03:38 <markbirbeck> Anyone interested in providing information for some consumer will want to get it right.
17:03:55 <manu> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:03:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/01/28-rdfa-minutes.html manu
17:04:01 <ShaneM> but....
17:04:23 <manu> Present+ Shane_McCarron, Steven_Pemberton
17:04:24 <markbirbeck> Control over <head> is a fair point though.
17:04:29 <markbirbeck> Shane is right there.
17:04:31 <ShaneM> profile goes on the html element.  or the head.  I can never remember.  xmlns can go anywhere.  and we had a requirement that you need to be able to do this stuff anywhere.
17:04:32 <manu> true
17:04:36 <ShaneM> thanks
17:04:42 <markbirbeck> Yes, I agree with you there.
17:04:55 <markbirbeck> But we also discussed having <div profile="...">
17:05:05 <markbirbeck> That would be a nice feature anyway.
17:05:30 <manu> scribenick+ manu
17:05:34 <manu> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:05:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/01/28-rdfa-minutes.html manu
17:29:56 <manu> rrsagent, bye
17:29:56 <RRSAgent> I see 8 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2010/01/28-rdfa-actions.rdf :
17:29:56 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Manu to create basic RDFa API document. [1]
17:29:56 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/01/28-rdfa-irc#T15-53-03
17:29:56 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Manu to test CORS support in latest browsers. [2]
17:29:56 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/01/28-rdfa-irc#T15-53-21
17:29:56 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Manu to contact Dan Brickley to discuss Microdata to RDFa mapping. [3]
17:29:56 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/01/28-rdfa-irc#T16-03-48
17:29:56 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Manu to get in touch with LibXML developers about TC 142. [4]
17:29:56 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/01/28-rdfa-irc#T16-06-04
17:29:56 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Manu to get in touch with LibXML developers about TC 142. [5]
17:29:56 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/01/28-rdfa-irc#T16-06-30
17:29:56 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Mark to generate spec text for @token and @prefix [6]
17:29:56 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/01/28-rdfa-irc#T16-06-41
17:29:56 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Mark to generate spec text for pulling in external vocabulary documents [7]
17:29:56 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/01/28-rdfa-irc#T16-07-01
17:29:56 <RRSAgent> ACTION: ShaneM to identify the requirements for html2ps and see about getting reSpec to support them. [8]
17:29:56 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/01/28-rdfa-irc#T16-07-36
17:29:59 <manu> zakim, bye
17:29:59 <Zakim> Zakim has left #rdfa