IRC log of rdfa on 2010-01-28

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:48:00 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #rdfa
15:48:00 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/01/28-rdfa-irc
15:48:04 [manu]
zakim, this will be rdfa
15:48:04 [Zakim]
ok, manu; I see SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM scheduled to start in 12 minutes
15:48:09 [manu]
Meeting: RDFa in XHTML Task Force
15:48:14 [manu]
Chair: Manu Sporny
15:48:18 [manu]
Scribe: Mark Birbeck
15:48:30 [manu]
Present: Manu_Sporny, Ivan_Herman
15:48:34 [manu]
Regrets: Ben_Adida
15:49:26 [manu]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2010Jan/0063.html
15:49:57 [manu]
Previous: http://www.w3.org/2010/01/21-rdfa-minutes.html
15:50:02 [manu]
rrsagent, make logs public
15:50:05 [manu]
rrsagent, draft minutes
15:50:05 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/01/28-rdfa-minutes.html manu
15:53:03 [manu]
ACTION: Manu to create basic RDFa API document.
15:53:21 [manu]
ACTION: Manu to test CORS support in latest browsers.
15:53:55 [manu]
s/in latest browsers/for RDFa vocabs in latest browsers/g
15:54:00 [manu]
rrsagent, draft minutes
15:54:00 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/01/28-rdfa-minutes.html manu
15:54:17 [markbirbeck]
markbirbeck has joined #rdfa
15:54:51 [manu]
Present+ Mark_Birbeck
15:55:57 [ivan]
we shall see
15:56:16 [manu]
rrsagent, draft minutes
15:56:16 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/01/28-rdfa-minutes.html manu
15:56:46 [markbirbeck]
Sure Manu.
15:56:51 [markbirbeck]
Calling in a mo'.
15:56:57 [ShaneM]
ShaneM has joined #rdfa
15:57:01 [Steven]
Steven has joined #rdfa
15:57:02 [manu]
scribenick: markbirbeck
15:58:46 [ivan]
zakim, dial ivan-voip
15:58:46 [Zakim]
ok, ivan; the call is being made
15:58:47 [Zakim]
SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has now started
15:58:47 [Zakim]
+Dialer
15:58:48 [Zakim]
-Dialer
15:58:53 [ivan]
????
15:58:54 [Zakim]
SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has ended
15:58:55 [Zakim]
Attendees were Dialer
15:59:03 [ivan]
zakim, dial ivan-voip
15:59:03 [Zakim]
ok, ivan; the call is being made
15:59:05 [Zakim]
SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has now started
15:59:06 [Zakim]
+Ivan
15:59:25 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
15:59:35 [markbirbeck]
zakim, codes?
15:59:35 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, markbirbeck.
15:59:41 [markbirbeck]
zakim, code?
15:59:41 [Zakim]
the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck
15:59:51 [manu]
zakim, I am IPcaller
15:59:51 [Zakim]
ok, manu, I now associate you with [IPcaller]
16:00:15 [Zakim]
+ +0208761aaaa
16:00:25 [markbirbeck]
zakim, i am aaaa
16:00:26 [Zakim]
+markbirbeck; got it
16:01:20 [Steven]
zakim, dial steven-617
16:01:20 [Zakim]
ok, Steven; the call is being made
16:01:22 [Zakim]
+Steven
16:01:58 [Steven]
zakim, mute me
16:01:58 [Zakim]
Steven should now be muted
16:02:07 [Steven]
ack me
16:03:05 [markbirbeck]
Topic: Action Items
16:03:19 [manu]
http://www.w3.org/2010/01/21-rdfa-minutes.html
16:03:48 [markbirbeck]
ACTION: Manu to contact Dan Brickley to discuss Microdata to RDFa mapping.
16:03:57 [markbirbeck]
--done
16:04:32 [markbirbeck]
Dan has been talking to Hixie on WHATWG mailing-list to see what the overlap between Microdata and RDFa is.
16:05:03 [markbirbeck]
There seems to be a feeling that Microdata is at the very least a subset of RDFa.
16:05:43 [markbirbeck]
It may be possible to create a profile to use XSLT to map from one to the other.
16:06:04 [markbirbeck]
ACTION: Manu to get in touch with LibXML developers about TC 142.
16:06:08 [markbirbeck]
--continues
16:06:30 [markbirbeck]
ACTION: Manu to get in touch with LibXML developers about TC 142.
16:06:41 [markbirbeck]
ACTION: Mark to generate spec text for @token and @prefix
16:06:48 [markbirbeck]
--continues
16:06:53 [Zakim]
+ShaneM
16:07:01 [markbirbeck]
ACTION: Mark to generate spec text for pulling in external vocabulary documents
16:07:06 [markbirbeck]
--continues
16:07:36 [markbirbeck]
ACTION: ShaneM to identify the requirements for html2ps and see about getting reSpec to support them.
16:07:40 [markbirbeck]
--continues
16:11:36 [manu]
zakim, who is making noise?
16:11:48 [Zakim]
manu, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: [IPcaller] (18%), markbirbeck (47%), Ivan (55%)
16:11:49 [ivan]
http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/
16:12:03 [manu]
zakim, mute markbirbeck
16:12:03 [Zakim]
markbirbeck should now be muted
16:12:14 [markbirbeck]
It's traffic outside.
16:12:24 [markbirbeck]
I don't see why I'm echoing though.
16:13:16 [markbirbeck]
Right. :) Traffic is making noise, but I don't see why it causes echo.
16:17:13 [markbirbeck]
great news though. :)
16:17:37 [markbirbeck]
Topic: RDFa Community Updates
16:17:50 [markbirbeck]
Manu: Had a chance to read Benji's comments?
16:18:50 [markbirbeck]
... Benji wrote blog-post that was quite critical of RDFa community.
16:19:27 [markbirbeck]
... He feels that pushing Microdata is a better option for adoption.
16:20:06 [markbirbeck]
... His past posts of the years are along much the same lines, that the solution should be a collection of tokens, a la Microformats.
16:20:39 [ivan]
q+
16:20:40 [markbirbeck]
... We should take his comments seriously, since he represents an identifiable set of concerns.
16:21:30 [markbirbeck]
Ivan: We did discuss the possibility of defining Microdata as a profile of RDFa, and I would be in favour of that.
16:21:51 [markbirbeck]
... But this post talks of removing things that it doesn't seem possible to remove, such as @resource.
16:22:10 [Steven]
q+
16:22:11 [markbirbeck]
... He doesn't really give an argument for removal.
16:22:16 [Steven]
ack ivan
16:22:43 [markbirbeck]
... Same goes for ranting against CURIEs -- we're working on that and there's not much more we can say.
16:23:06 [markbirbeck]
... The idea that one set of attribute names is better than another is really a matter of faith.
16:23:29 [markbirbeck]
... Whilst we don't care that much about the attribute names, a big problem is existing deployments.
16:23:31 [manu]
ack steven
16:23:32 [markbirbeck]
q+
16:24:00 [markbirbeck]
Steven: I've been working on RDFa for at least 7 years, and it's not as if it suddenly popped out of nowhere.
16:24:10 [markbirbeck]
... It had discussion, use-cases, etc.
16:24:29 [markbirbeck]
... Microdata comes out of nowhere, but somehow it's presented that RDFa-proponents are in the wrong.
16:24:59 [markbirbeck]
... Appreciate the work of bridge-building, but we have to remember that no-one was asking for Microdata.
16:25:05 [ivan]
q+
16:25:11 [markbirbeck]
zakim, unmute me
16:25:11 [Zakim]
markbirbeck should no longer be muted
16:25:18 [manu]
ack markbirbeck
16:25:32 [Steven]
zakim, mute me
16:25:32 [Zakim]
Steven should now be muted
16:25:51 [manu]
Mark: I missed the call on Microdata profiles - I think I agree with Steven, I'm not sure I understand what the benefit is.
16:26:30 [manu]
Mark: We've been working on this for years and Microdata is in flux - and is progressively getting closer and closer to RDFa.
16:27:00 [manu]
Mark: I don't mind the dialog, but we risk damaging deployment if we change all the attribute names.
16:27:12 [manu]
Mark: It's sort of religious - one attribute is better than another.
16:27:18 [manu]
Mark: but there is another way to view this.
16:27:41 [manu]
Mark: Changing rel to itemprop may be a bad change - @rel and @rev already has a place in HTML.
16:27:54 [manu]
Mark: We've been very careful to re-use pre-existing semantic elements in HTML.
16:28:49 [manu]
Mark: Microdata duplicates @rel and @rev - so there is a problem here - that new attributes are being defined for old concepts.
16:29:28 [Steven]
zakim, mute mark
16:29:28 [Zakim]
markbirbeck should now be muted
16:29:28 [manu]
zakim, mute markbirbeck
16:29:29 [Zakim]
markbirbeck was already muted, manu
16:30:32 [manu]
q+ to discuss harm that continued bike-shedding may cause.
16:30:41 [manu]
zakim, I am [IPcaller]
16:30:41 [Zakim]
ok, manu, I now associate you with [IPcaller]
16:30:49 [markbirbeck]
Ivan: Changing attribute names is out of the question.
16:30:51 [manu]
zakim, who is on the queue
16:30:51 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'who is on the queue', manu
16:30:55 [manu]
zakim, who is on the queue?
16:30:55 [Zakim]
I see ivan, [IPcaller] on the speaker queue
16:31:07 [manu]
zakim, I am +IPcaller
16:31:07 [Zakim]
sorry, manu, I do not see a party named '+IPcaller'
16:31:14 [markbirbeck]
... On the other hand I don't mind about building bridges.
16:31:26 [Steven]
zakim, who is on the phone?
16:31:26 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Ivan, [IPcaller], markbirbeck (muted), Steven (muted), ShaneM
16:31:32 [Steven]
zakim IP is Manu
16:31:37 [Steven]
zakim, IP is Manu
16:31:37 [Zakim]
sorry, Steven, I do not recognize a party named 'IP'
16:31:47 [Steven]
zakim, [IP is manu
16:31:47 [Zakim]
+manu; got it
16:31:51 [Steven]
q?
16:31:58 [ivan]
ack ivan
16:32:09 [Steven]
ack [
16:32:09 [Zakim]
[IPcaller], you wanted to discuss harm that continued bike-shedding may cause.
16:32:29 [markbirbeck]
Manu: I'm increasingly concerned about discussions with people like Wikipedia.
16:33:03 [markbirbeck]
... The problem was that although we know the background to Microdata popping up from nowhere, the outside world doesn't.
16:33:28 [markbirbeck]
... They just see a 'fight' going on.
16:33:39 [markbirbeck]
... I think it's harming adoption.
16:34:52 [markbirbeck]
... If others implement a Microdata API in the browser, then that could affect adoption.
16:35:30 [markbirbeck]
q+
16:36:09 [manu]
ack markbirbeck
16:37:49 [manu]
Mark: I don't know if a GRDDL-approach, mapping Microdata to RDFa would work... we've had that discussion before.
16:38:13 [manu]
Mark: I think we should focus on RDFa API and getting RDFa out there more.
16:38:32 [ShaneM]
I don't think the transform can be isomorphic.
16:38:33 [ivan]
q+
16:38:42 [manu]
Mark: RDFa and Microdata are fundamentally not equal.
16:39:20 [manu]
Mark: This is the same thing that happened with Microformats - RDFa kept going and I think Microformats are coming to an end soon.
16:39:36 [manu]
ack ivan
16:39:38 [markbirbeck]
zakim, mute me
16:39:38 [Zakim]
markbirbeck should now be muted
16:39:57 [manu]
q+
16:39:57 [markbirbeck]
Ivan: Wiki would be a good place to start on some of these ideas.
16:40:50 [markbirbeck]
... (That was response to Mark saying that we should get on and document some of our ideas on RDFa API.)
16:40:52 [manu]
+1
16:41:16 [markbirbeck]
... If as Mark says, that RDFa is superior to Microdata, then we should be explaining this.
16:42:15 [ShaneM]
pre-defined prefixes simplifies immediately
16:42:18 [manu]
ack manu
16:42:24 [markbirbeck]
... If someone doesn't want the full functionality of RDFa it should be clear how to use it.
16:43:12 [markbirbeck]
Shane would like it minuted that he is paying attention.
16:43:49 [manu]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2010Jan/0059.html
16:43:50 [markbirbeck]
Topic: RDFa vocabs
16:44:24 [markbirbeck]
Sorry...was foolishly following previous minutes!
16:44:38 [ivan]
q+
16:44:54 [manu]
s/RDFa vocabs/Pre-loading prefixes/g
16:44:58 [markbirbeck]
Topic: RDFa prefix pre-loading
16:45:18 [markbirbeck]
Ivan: At a theoretical and technical level, these things are not totally unrelated.
16:45:44 [ShaneM]
+1
16:45:54 [markbirbeck]
... They shouldn't need to be presented as being distinct.
16:45:59 [markbirbeck]
zakim, unmute me
16:45:59 [Zakim]
markbirbeck should no longer be muted
16:46:27 [manu]
Mark: One of the things on the vocab front is this gradual rejection that follow-your-nose is everything.
16:46:57 [manu]
Mark: The idea that everything must be able to be worked out on the fly by default - you need to support follow-your-nose
16:47:15 [manu]
Mark: But saying that stuff is predefined isn't necessarily a bad thing - we shouldn't be scared of doing that.
16:47:54 [manu]
Mark: This is where Microdata and Microformats falls down - they don't have the follow-your-nose mechanism.
16:47:59 [manu]
Mark: RDFa does.
16:48:12 [manu]
Mark: as long as you can ensure that the two co-exist, then why not pre-load prefixes?
16:48:42 [manu]
Ivan: Then we largely agree, right?
16:49:19 [manu]
Mark: The downside to this follow-your-nose is that it is used as an argument against pre-defined vocabs.
16:49:43 [Steven]
zakim, mute mark
16:49:43 [Zakim]
markbirbeck should now be muted
16:49:48 [manu]
Ivan: Google uses the same mechanism... but it has been said all along that a processor would cache a bunch of these namespaces.
16:49:59 [manu]
q+
16:50:15 [manu]
Ivan: caching is a fundamental part of the web.
16:50:21 [manu]
ack manu
16:50:24 [markbirbeck]
Ivan: Not disimilar to an editor caching DTDs.
16:50:26 [ShaneM]
I want to do this RIGHT NOW
16:51:17 [markbirbeck]
Manu: But which vocabularies would we put into the spec? Which ones have longevity?
16:51:28 [markbirbeck]
... Top 20 from CC?
16:51:32 [markbirbeck]
q+
16:51:40 [markbirbeck]
s/CC/prefixcc/
16:51:40 [ivan]
ack ivan
16:51:55 [ShaneM]
q+ to talk about the process for picking vocabs
16:52:13 [markbirbeck]
zakim, unmute me
16:52:13 [Zakim]
markbirbeck should no longer be muted
16:52:14 [manu]
ack mark
16:52:31 [manu]
Mark: I think we shouldn't be scared of doing this - not do this now.
16:52:50 [manu]
Mark: We should certainly think all of this stuff through... there isn't a principle that we shouldn't have to pre-define things.
16:53:08 [markbirbeck]
<html>
16:53:08 [markbirbeck]
<head profile="http://rdf.data-vocabulary.org/profile/2009">
16:53:08 [markbirbeck]
...
16:53:09 [markbirbeck]
</head>
16:53:09 [markbirbeck]
<body>
16:53:10 [markbirbeck]
<div typeof="Person">
16:53:11 [markbirbeck]
<span property="name">John Smith</span>
16:53:13 [markbirbeck]
<span property="nickname">Smithy</span>
16:53:15 [markbirbeck]
<span property="url">http://www.example.com</span>
16:53:17 [markbirbeck]
<span property="affiliation">ACME</span>
16:53:19 [markbirbeck]
<span rel="address">
16:53:21 [markbirbeck]
<span property="locality">Albuquerque</span>
16:53:23 [markbirbeck]
</span>
16:53:25 [markbirbeck]
<span property="title">Engineer</span>
16:53:27 [markbirbeck]
<a href="http://darryl-blog.example.com/" rel="friend">Darryl</a>
16:53:29 [markbirbeck]
</div>
16:53:31 [markbirbeck]
</body>
16:53:33 [markbirbeck]
</html>
16:54:18 [manu]
Mark: This approach might be better - since it's encapsulated in a @profile attribute.
16:54:39 [manu]
Mark: That is better than Microformats and it's scalable.
16:54:49 [Steven]
zakim, mute mark
16:54:49 [Zakim]
markbirbeck should now be muted
16:55:16 [manu]
unmute, mark
16:55:16 [Steven]
ack mark
16:56:44 [manu]
Mark: This would allow RDFa processors to understand the URL to mean something special.
16:57:17 [manu]
Mark: It's a key to tell the authors that their data would be processed in a particular way.
16:57:45 [ivan]
zakim, mute mark
16:57:45 [Zakim]
markbirbeck should now be muted
16:58:03 [manu]
Mark: Maybe we should defer the pre-loaded prefixes until we can have this discussion
16:58:19 [manu]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:58:19 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/01/28-rdfa-minutes.html manu
16:58:22 [manu]
q+
16:58:24 [markbirbeck]
Mark: Not intending to take the discussion in other direction, just trying to point out that there may be something even better than fixing prefix values.
16:58:28 [manu]
ack ShaneM
16:58:29 [Zakim]
ShaneM, you wanted to talk about the process for picking vocabs
16:59:08 [markbirbeck]
Shane: But people forget to use @profile, or they don't have access to <head>, etc.
16:59:10 [ivan]
q+
16:59:15 [manu]
ack manu
16:59:30 [manu]
+1 to Shane's comment
16:59:33 [markbirbeck]
... So having the ability to use "dc" or "foaf" without having to define it, would be very useful.
16:59:43 [markbirbeck]
... Let's just do this now.
16:59:53 [ShaneM]
rule one for picking prefixes. vocabs defined by the W3C are predefined.
17:00:23 [Zakim]
-ShaneM
17:00:25 [markbirbeck]
Bye everyone.
17:00:25 [Zakim]
-Ivan
17:00:29 [Zakim]
-markbirbeck
17:00:30 [Zakim]
-Steven
17:00:30 [Zakim]
-manu
17:00:31 [Zakim]
SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has ended
17:00:34 [Zakim]
Attendees were Ivan, [IPcaller], +0208761aaaa, markbirbeck, Steven, ShaneM, manu
17:00:39 [manu]
me Mark - I'll clean up the minutes
17:00:47 [markbirbeck]
Great...thanks Manu.
17:00:48 [manu]
zakim, draft minutes
17:00:48 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'draft minutes', manu
17:00:54 [manu]
rrsagent, draft minutes
17:00:54 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/01/28-rdfa-minutes.html manu
17:01:06 [markbirbeck]
Note that omitting @profile is a red herring.
17:01:17 [manu]
how so?
17:01:27 [markbirbeck]
People raise it, and say that no-one ever used @profile in Microformats.
17:01:30 [markbirbeck]
That's true.
17:01:36 [manu]
ahh, yes
17:01:38 [manu]
I see your point
17:01:46 [markbirbeck]
But in RDFa if you miss out all the namespaces you're scuppered anyway.
17:01:57 [manu]
The reason they didn't use it was because it had no effect on processing.
17:02:00 [markbirbeck]
So there's already a basic requirement on authors to add something.
17:02:05 [markbirbeck]
Yes, exactly.
17:02:33 [markbirbeck]
But if you miss out the Google namespace in your RDFa, you won't get indexed properly.
17:02:40 [markbirbeck]
Same in Yahoo!.
17:03:03 [markbirbeck]
So all we're saying is instead of adding 10 URIs, just add one.
17:03:04 [manu]
The #seo people will definitely make a point of it
17:03:15 [markbirbeck]
A point of getting it right?
17:03:19 [manu]
yes
17:03:23 [markbirbeck]
Exactly.
17:03:38 [markbirbeck]
Anyone interested in providing information for some consumer will want to get it right.
17:03:55 [manu]
rrsagent, draft minutes
17:03:55 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/01/28-rdfa-minutes.html manu
17:04:01 [ShaneM]
but....
17:04:23 [manu]
Present+ Shane_McCarron, Steven_Pemberton
17:04:24 [markbirbeck]
Control over <head> is a fair point though.
17:04:29 [markbirbeck]
Shane is right there.
17:04:31 [ShaneM]
profile goes on the html element. or the head. I can never remember. xmlns can go anywhere. and we had a requirement that you need to be able to do this stuff anywhere.
17:04:32 [manu]
true
17:04:36 [ShaneM]
thanks
17:04:42 [markbirbeck]
Yes, I agree with you there.
17:04:55 [markbirbeck]
But we also discussed having <div profile="...">
17:05:05 [markbirbeck]
That would be a nice feature anyway.
17:05:30 [manu]
scribenick+ manu
17:05:34 [manu]
rrsagent, draft minutes
17:05:34 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/01/28-rdfa-minutes.html manu
17:29:56 [manu]
rrsagent, bye
17:29:56 [RRSAgent]
I see 8 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2010/01/28-rdfa-actions.rdf :
17:29:56 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Manu to create basic RDFa API document. [1]
17:29:56 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/01/28-rdfa-irc#T15-53-03
17:29:56 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Manu to test CORS support in latest browsers. [2]
17:29:56 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/01/28-rdfa-irc#T15-53-21
17:29:56 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Manu to contact Dan Brickley to discuss Microdata to RDFa mapping. [3]
17:29:56 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/01/28-rdfa-irc#T16-03-48
17:29:56 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Manu to get in touch with LibXML developers about TC 142. [4]
17:29:56 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/01/28-rdfa-irc#T16-06-04
17:29:56 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Manu to get in touch with LibXML developers about TC 142. [5]
17:29:56 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/01/28-rdfa-irc#T16-06-30
17:29:56 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Mark to generate spec text for @token and @prefix [6]
17:29:56 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/01/28-rdfa-irc#T16-06-41
17:29:56 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Mark to generate spec text for pulling in external vocabulary documents [7]
17:29:56 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/01/28-rdfa-irc#T16-07-01
17:29:56 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: ShaneM to identify the requirements for html2ps and see about getting reSpec to support them. [8]
17:29:56 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/01/28-rdfa-irc#T16-07-36
17:29:59 [manu]
zakim, bye
17:29:59 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #rdfa