14:33:32 RRSAgent has joined #dap 14:33:32 logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/01/27-dap-irc 14:33:34 RRSAgent, make logs world 14:33:34 Zakim has joined #dap 14:33:36 Zakim, this will be DAP 14:33:36 ok, trackbot; I see UW_DAP()10:00AM scheduled to start in 27 minutes 14:33:37 Meeting: Device APIs and Policy Working Group Teleconference 14:33:37 Date: 27 January 2010 14:34:01 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2010Jan/0189.html 14:34:17 Chair: Robin_Berjon, Frederick_Hirsch 14:34:27 Present: Robin_Berjon, Frederick_Hirsch 14:37:12 darobin has joined #dap 14:37:57 Regrets: Paddy_Byers, John_Morris, Laura_Arribas, David_Rogers, Marcin_Hanclik 14:39:57 Regrets+ Marengo_Marco, Claes_Nilsson 14:41:06 Regrets+ Arve_Bersvendsen 14:54:44 fhirsch has joined #dap 14:54:46 nwidell has joined #dap 14:56:23 AnssiK has joined #dap 14:57:27 UW_DAP()10:00AM has now started 14:57:35 +[IPcaller] 14:57:41 zakim, [IPcaller] is fjh 14:57:41 +fjh; got it 14:59:40 +??P7 14:59:49 +AnssiK 14:59:50 Claes has joined #dap 14:59:57 +maxf 15:00:33 Zakim, ??P7 is me 15:00:33 +darobin; got it 15:00:35 + +358.504.86aaaa 15:00:55 Present+ Robin_Berjon 15:01:11 +nwidell 15:01:24 zakim, aaaa is ilkka 15:01:24 +ilkka; got it 15:01:26 there's the BONDI meeting at the same time, hence the regrets 15:01:38 Present+ Ilkka_Oksanen 15:01:43 Present+ Niklas_Widell 15:02:14 zakim, who is here? 15:02:14 On the phone I see fjh, darobin (muted), AnssiK, maxf, ilkka, nwidell 15:02:15 On IRC I see Claes, AnssiK, nwidell, fhirsch, darobin, Zakim, RRSAgent, tlr, maxf, blassey, fjh, ilkka, shepazu, dom, trackbot 15:02:17 Zakim, pick scribe 15:02:17 I don't understand 'pick scribe', darobin 15:02:24 zakim, call thomas-781 15:02:24 ok, tlr; the call is being made 15:02:24 Dzung_Tran has joined #dap 15:02:25 mmmmm, it can do it :) 15:02:25 +Thomas 15:02:31 Present+ Dzung_Tran 15:02:32 zakim, I am thomas 15:02:32 ok, tlr, I now associate you with Thomas 15:02:35 zakim, mute me 15:02:35 Thomas should now be muted 15:02:38 Present+ ThomasRoessler 15:03:06 + +04610801aabb 15:03:23 zakim, aabb is claes 15:03:23 +claes; got it 15:03:26 AnssiK has joined #dap 15:03:45 +Dom 15:03:48 Present+ Dominique_Hazael-Massieux 15:04:04 zakim, who is here? 15:04:04 On the phone I see fjh, darobin (muted), AnssiK, maxf, ilkka, nwidell, Thomas (muted), claes, Dom 15:04:06 On IRC I see AnssiK, Dzung_Tran, Claes, nwidell, fhirsch, darobin, Zakim, RRSAgent, tlr, maxf, blassey, fjh, ilkka, shepazu, dom, trackbot 15:04:09 zakim, mute me 15:04:09 Dom should now be muted 15:04:30 zakim, aabb is me 15:04:30 sorry, Claes, I do not recognize a party named 'aabb' 15:04:47 zakim, aabb is me 15:04:47 sorry, Claes, I do not recognize a party named 'aabb' 15:05:03 for some reason nwidell is not on the victims list! 15:05:08 Present+ Claes_Nilsson 15:05:09 Present+ Brad_Lassery 15:05:16 Niklas 15:05:24 I sccribed at F2F 15:05:30 I can do it 15:05:31 Brad is also not on the scribes list 15:05:51 +[Mozilla] 15:05:54 [regrets from me for next two weeks] 15:05:56 Claes1 has joined #dap 15:06:11 scribe nwidell 15:06:14 Present Claes_Nilsson 15:06:28 ScribeNick: nwidell 15:06:29 ok thanks 15:06:38 ScribeNick: nwidell 15:07:04 Agenda ok 15:07:10 Announcements: 15:07:15 The Contacts API has now made it officially as First Public 15:07:21 -> http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/WD-contacts-api-20100121/ Contacts API FPWD 15:07:22 Working Draft: http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/WD-contacts-api-20100121/ 15:07:23 ack me 15:08:13 Minutes from January 20th 15:08:14 20 Jan 15:08:16 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2010Jan/att-0167/minutes-2010-01-20.html 15:08:41 Suresh has joined #dap 15:08:53 Topic: Policy 15:08:55 Present+ first_last 15:09:06 Present+ Suresh 15:09:08 Present+ Suresh_Chitturi 15:09:22 s/Present+ first_last// 15:09:22 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2010Jan/0168.html 15:09:44 no concentration:-) 15:09:50 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2010Jan/0185.html 15:10:47 fjh: we need to make a decision on how to continue with security 15:11:12 + +1.972.373.aacc 15:11:14 q+ to propose that the next step on this would be a concrete API proposal from REST-proponents 15:11:19 s/security/ the Lest vs API issue, please review discussions on the list 15:11:20 ISSUE-66? 15:11:20 ISSUE-66 -- Investigation around Virtual Web Devices / REST-ful oriented APIs -- OPEN 15:11:20 http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/issues/66 15:11:22 ack me 15:11:22 dom, you wanted to propose that the next step on this would be a concrete API proposal from REST-proponents 15:11:22 ack dom 15:12:07 dom: It is not clear how REST-ful APIs would help. We need a concrete REST proposal 15:12:25 ... and then make a decision. 15:12:52 fjh: no decision/resolution on this call 15:13:17 ISSUE-66: could use a concrete API proposal to see how the various obstacles that have been evoked would be handled 15:13:17 ISSUE-66 Investigation around Virtual Web Devices / REST-ful oriented APIs notes added 15:13:30 thanks dom 15:13:52 ACTION: Robin to contact Mark about a concrete LREST proposal 15:13:52 Created ACTION-88 - Contact Mark about a concrete LREST proposal [on Robin Berjon - due 2010-02-03]. 15:14:20 action-85? 15:14:20 ACTION-85 -- Paddy Byers to provide his thoughts on LREST based on experience from BONDI's earlier discussions on the same -- due 2010-01-27 -- PENDINGREVIEW 15:14:20 http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/actions/85 15:14:22 fjh: Please look on the list so we can have a decision soon 15:14:23 close ACTION-85 15:14:23 ACTION-85 Provide his thoughts on LREST based on experience from BONDI's earlier discussions on the same closed 15:14:30 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2010Jan/0187.html 15:14:48 fjh: Concerned in progress in security 15:15:06 goal to publish FPWD of security requirements, what needs to be added 15:15:17 action-16? 15:15:17 ACTION-16 -- Bryan Sullivan to help review/compare device capabilities and features -- due 2009-11-02 -- OPEN 15:15:17 http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/actions/16 15:15:29 action-46? 15:15:29 ACTION-46 -- Daniel Coloma to provide input of capability definition and semantics -- due 2009-11-10 -- OPEN 15:15:29 http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/actions/46 15:16:01 fjh: We need progress on these actions (16+46) 15:16:04 +AnssiK.a 15:16:12 action-45? 15:16:12 ACTION-45 -- David Rogers to provide use case with threat model scenarios -- due 2009-11-10 -- OPEN 15:16:12 http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/actions/45 15:16:22 action-48? 15:16:22 ACTION-48 -- Suresh Chitturi to propose a definition for API access control, and a possible model for policy enforcement -- due 2009-11-10 -- OPEN 15:16:22 http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/actions/48 15:16:35 action-79? 15:16:35 ACTION-79 -- Paddy Byers to integrate his use cases in policy requirements -- due 2010-01-13 -- OPEN 15:16:35 http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/actions/79 15:16:41 action-77? 15:16:41 ACTION-77 -- John Morris to provide a discussion of requirements for privacy -- due 2010-01-19 -- OPEN 15:16:41 http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/actions/77 15:17:09 fjh: We need to have progress on security use cases: 15:17:58 -AnssiK 15:17:59 -> http://dev.w3.org/2009/dap/policy-reqs/ Policy requirements editors draft 15:18:30 suresh: We have not decided how to use features in assoc. with policies 15:18:43 ACTION-48 due 2010-02-10 15:18:43 ACTION-48 Propose a definition for API access control, and a possible model for policy enforcement due date now 2010-02-10 15:19:15 Will complete action-48 by Feb 10 15:19:16 fjh: We need to have something before f2f 15:20:00 Sysinfo, ISSUE-63, encrypted attribute, 15:20:06 ISSUE-63? 15:20:06 ISSUE-63 -- network API: "encrypted" property is meaningless -- RAISED 15:20:06 http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/issues/63 15:20:09 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2010Jan/0171.html 15:20:18 issue-63? 15:20:18 ISSUE-63 -- network API: "encrypted" property is meaningless -- RAISED 15:20:18 http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/issues/63 15:20:51 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2010Jan/0177.html MaxF take on encrypted attribute 15:20:59 fjh: recaps discussion on issue-63 15:21:55 [isn't that backward though? shouldn't we remove it until it gets properly defined?] 15:22:00 I'm happy to, yes 15:22:05 q+ 15:22:06 max: will update according to consensus 15:22:12 I think just remove it for now 15:22:14 ack thomas 15:22:15 [conversely we could leave it in to get feedback] 15:22:55 tlr: Wants to remove encrypted due to risk of misuse (more harm than benefit) 15:23:04 [I would remove it, and maybe add an editors note on getting feedback around "secure connection"] 15:23:13 [works for me] 15:23:18 works for me too 15:23:59 ... until there is an useful definition of secure channel. More specification is needed 15:24:22 q+ to say that there's no longer a list of available networks, only current 15:24:25 ... to indicate how the encrypted channel relates to what the app is using. 15:25:06 maxf, I've had my computer on several network links for a number of times 15:25:16 s/for a/a/ 15:25:20 tlr: I mean through the API 15:25:28 s/tlr:/tlr, 15:25:33 PROPOSED RESOLUTION: remove encrypted attribute from Network interface in sysinfo 15:25:43 proposed resolution: remove encrypted property from API 15:26:06 "PROPOSED": does that mean I should edit? 15:26:12 or wait for minute approval? 15:26:46 fjh: Prefer to remove right away 15:26:53 ok, I'll edit 15:27:02 done 15:27:06 ISSUE-63: we remove the encrypted attribute from network interface before FPWD 15:27:06 ISSUE-63 network API: "encrypted" property is meaningless notes added 15:27:09 close ISSUE-63 15:27:09 ISSUE-63 network API: "encrypted" property is meaningless closed 15:27:54 RESOLUTION: remove encrypted attribute from Network interface in sysinfo 15:28:00 Topic: API 15:28:03 s/ RESOLUTION/ RESOLUTION/ 15:28:22 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2010Jan/0170.html CfC for SysInfo FPWD 15:28:32 darobin: CofC SysInfo objections? 15:28:51 I recommend we add additional text regarding status of document in FPWD, 15:28:58 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2010Jan/0192.html Claes question on completeness of scope of SysInfo for FPWD 15:29:10 Claes: maybe we should add a few more things 15:29:19 Implementers should be aware that this document is not stable. Implementers who are not taking part in the discussions are likely to find the specification changing out from under them in incompatible ways. Vendors interested in implementing this document before it eventually reaches the Candidate Recommendation stage should join the aforementioned mailing lists and take part in the discussions. 15:29:41 darobin: We can certainly add things later 15:29:43 this is possible additional boilerplate text for all our documents 15:29:58 darobin: we have flexibility 15:30:06 +1 to fjh provided boilerplate 15:30:30 Claes: would like to add a few more sensor apis, wants to be sure that we can add them later 15:31:05 darobin: encourages a proposal on the additional apis, or at least log an issue 15:32:02 fjh: proposes some extra boilerplate text to indicate that document might change 15:32:52 tlr, can you take the action of getting SysInfo published as FPWD? I can probably take care of the transition request, but probably not of the publication itself 15:33:00 RESOLUTION: continue with CofC for SysInfo 15:33:10 ACTION: dom to request transition of Sysino to FPWD 15:33:10 Created ACTION-89 - Request transition of Sysino to FPWD [on Dominique Hazaƫl-Massieux - due 2010-02-03]. 15:33:17 darobin: calendar/messaging 15:33:26 dom, ok 15:33:31 q+ 15:33:31 s/continue with CofC for SysInfo/publish SysInfo as FPWD/ 15:33:36 q- 15:33:38 darobin: please provide feeback 15:33:50 ack me 15:33:58 oops sorry 15:34:08 ack thomas 15:34:27 sysinfo link - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2010Jan/0170.html 15:34:28 (Robin) 15:34:36 tlr: looking at calendar. Different from vcalendar format in not useful way 15:34:42 Calendar draft http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2010Jan/0182.html 15:34:59 ACTION: thomas to deal with publication of SysInfo as FPWD 15:34:59 Created ACTION-90 - Deal with publication of SysInfo as FPWD [on Thomas Roessler - due 2010-02-03]. 15:35:10 tlr: what should be the relationship between vcard/contacts and vcalendar/Calendar. 15:35:20 q+ 15:35:22 http://dev.w3.org/2009/dap/calendar/ 15:35:23 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2010Jan/0198.html Dom's comments on Calendar API (including points on recurrence) 15:35:23 ack Suresh 15:35:30 ... if we don't get alignment we might end in big trouble. 15:36:13 suresh: studied what currents implementations do instead of the focus on specs 15:36:33 ... tried to follow similar model as contacts, find common intersection 15:36:56 q+ 15:37:03 ... wrt compatibilities we need to look at the differences between proposal and vcalendar 15:37:19 ack thomas 15:37:22 ... but comments (from mail) are valid observations. 15:38:06 tlr: (soapbox) I don't want to built in incompatibilities 15:38:49 q+ 15:38:53 ack me 15:39:07 ... (didn't get the last part) 15:39:45 darobin: intersection what is specified/what is available 15:40:20 robin: intersection of what is available and compatible subset of specifications 15:40:45 suresh: we will look into vcalendar, but also look at icalendar 15:40:54 q+ to also suggest taking this to the W3C/IETF liaison 15:41:16 ... will provide some feedback on the differences 15:41:24 ack thomas 15:41:24 Thomas, you wanted to also suggest taking this to the W3C/IETF liaison 15:41:24 [should we raise on issue on data model differences with ical (possible vcard too)?] 15:41:27 ACTION: Suresh to investigate how to produce an intersection of existing APIs that is also a compatible subset of vCalendar/vCard 15:41:27 Created ACTION-91 - Investigate how to produce an intersection of existing APIs that is also a compatible subset of vCalendar/vCard [on Suresh Chitturi - due 2010-02-03]. 15:41:48 dom, yes 15:41:52 ISSUE: difference in data model between Contacts/Calendar APIs and vCard/vCalendar 15:41:52 Created ISSUE-71 - Difference in data model between Contacts/Calendar APIs and vCard/vCalendar ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/issues/71/edit . 15:42:28 ACTION: tlr to give a heads up to the IETF/W3C liaison for review and input from IETF around PIM 15:42:28 Created ACTION-92 - Give a heads up to the IETF/W3C liaison for review and input from IETF around PIM [on Thomas Roessler - due 2010-02-03]. 15:42:44 ACTION-92 due 2010-03-03 15:42:44 ACTION-92 Give a heads up to the IETF/W3C liaison for review and input from IETF around PIM due date now 2010-03-03 15:43:14 darobin: That summarizes API topics 15:43:25 zakim, who is here? 15:43:25 On the phone I see fjh, darobin, maxf, ilkka, nwidell, Thomas, claes, Dom, [Mozilla], +1.972.373.aacc, AnssiK.a 15:43:27 On IRC I see Suresh, Claes1, AnssiK, Dzung_Tran, nwidell, fhirsch, darobin, Zakim, RRSAgent, tlr, maxf, blassey, fjh, ilkka, shepazu, dom, trackbot 15:43:49 Messaging draft available http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2010Jan/0183.html 15:43:51 messaging: 15:43:56 [I read Messaging API, didn't have any real comments] 15:44:37 suresh notes messaging and contacts need to be consistent, integrated 15:44:42 q+ 15:45:06 and the same with Calendar and Messaging 15:45:13 ack Thomas 15:45:24 darobin: fix consistency later in the process 15:45:40 s/later/a little bit later/ 15:45:42 tlr: one of the patterns to use is to use URIs as soon as possible 15:46:21 ... e.g SMS URI and SMS api use together. 15:46:26 ISSUE: usage of URIs for sms, tel:, etc in PIM APIs 15:46:26 Created ISSUE-72 - Usage of URIs for sms, tel:, etc in PIM APIs ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/issues/72/edit . 15:46:31 q+ 15:46:38 ack nwidell 15:46:39 zakim, mute me 15:46:40 Thomas should now be muted 15:46:42 q+ to ask for clarification on the uri issue 15:47:29 (I think we already had an issue for the uri schemes discussion: ISSUE-54) 15:47:31 ISSUE-54? 15:47:31 ISSUE-54 -- What messaging use cases cannot be fulfilled by existing URI schemes (mailto, sms, mms)? -- RAISED 15:47:31 http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/issues/54 15:47:44 [shall I close the dup ISSUE-72?] 15:47:53 q+ 15:47:56 ack fjh 15:47:56 fjh, you wanted to ask for clarification on the uri issue 15:48:06 issue-72 15:48:07 issue-72? 15:48:07 ISSUE-72 -- Usage of URIs for sms, tel:, etc in PIM APIs -- RAISED 15:48:07 http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/issues/72 15:48:12 [ok, that's a different perspective indeed] 15:48:21 ack thomas 15:49:16 [ISSUE-54 is SMS.send("foo") versus text robin] 15:49:55 q? 15:50:24 Topic: AoB 15:50:44 tlr clarifies that ISSUE-54 relates to handing control to another app, versus ISSUE-72 and ability of APIS to work with URIs 15:50:59 thanks fjh 15:51:18 -darobin 15:51:18 darobin: gentle reminder to do reviews 15:51:19 -ilkka 15:51:20 -Thomas 15:51:21 -fjh 15:51:21 -Dom 15:51:23 -claes 15:51:25 -maxf 15:51:26 - +1.972.373.aacc 15:51:29 rrsagent, generate minutes 15:51:29 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/01/27-dap-minutes.html fjh 15:51:30 -nwidell 15:51:30 AnssiK has left #dap 15:51:34 -[Mozilla] 15:51:52 -AnssiK.a 15:51:54 UW_DAP()10:00AM has ended 15:51:55 Attendees were fjh, AnssiK, maxf, darobin, +358.504.86aaaa, nwidell, ilkka, Thomas, +04610801aabb, claes, Dom, [Mozilla], +1.972.373.aacc 15:52:39 Regrets- Claes_Nilsson 15:52:49 rrsagent, generate minutes 15:52:49 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/01/27-dap-minutes.html fjh 16:01:22 close action-88 16:01:22 ACTION-88 Contact Mark about a concrete LREST proposal closed 16:01:37 RRSAgent, stop