IRC log of prov-xg on 2010-01-22

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:27:12 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #prov-xg
15:27:12 [RRSAgent]
logging to
15:27:14 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
15:27:14 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #prov-xg
15:27:16 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 98765
15:27:16 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see INC_PROVXG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 33 minutes
15:27:17 [trackbot]
Meeting: Provenance Incubator Group Teleconference
15:27:17 [trackbot]
Date: 22 January 2010
15:27:31 [Luc]
chair: Yolanda Gil
15:29:35 [Luc]
15:29:52 [Luc]
Scribe: Luc Moreau
15:30:07 [Luc]
ScribeNick: Luc
15:30:29 [Luc]
zakim, save agenda
15:30:29 [Zakim]
the agenda has not been entered yet, Luc
15:31:31 [Luc]
15:32:09 [Luc]
zakim, save agenda (after agenda entered)
15:32:09 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'save agenda (after agenda entered)', Luc
15:32:26 [Luc]
zakim, save agenda
15:32:26 [Zakim]
the agenda has not been entered yet, Luc
15:32:56 [Luc]
zakim, agenda?
15:32:56 [Zakim]
I see nothing on the agenda
15:36:14 [Luc]
zakim, list agenda
15:36:14 [Zakim]
I see nothing on the agenda
15:36:32 [Luc]
zakim, agenda?
15:36:32 [Zakim]
I see nothing on the agenda
15:39:34 [Luc]
rrsagent, set log public
15:40:02 [Luc]
zakim, who is here?
15:40:02 [Zakim]
INC_PROVXG()11:00AM has not yet started, Luc
15:40:03 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, Luc, trackbot
15:47:12 [YolandaG]
YolandaG has joined #prov-xg
15:47:21 [YolandaG]
thanks for doing this Luc!!
15:47:50 [jun]
jun has joined #prov-xg
15:48:46 [Zakim]
INC_PROVXG()11:00AM has now started
15:48:53 [Zakim]
15:49:46 [Luc]
zakim, save agenda
15:49:46 [Zakim]
the agenda has not been entered yet, Luc
15:50:19 [Luc]
15:50:29 [Luc]
chair: Yolanda Gil
15:50:47 [Luc]
zakim, save agenda
15:50:47 [Zakim]
the agenda has not been entered yet, Luc
15:51:29 [Luc]
rrsagent, set log public
15:52:11 [Luc]
zakim, who is here?
15:52:11 [Zakim]
On the phone I see YolandaG
15:52:12 [Zakim]
On IRC I see jun, YolandaG, Zakim, RRSAgent, Luc, trackbot
15:53:11 [Zakim]
15:53:14 [Oleksiy]
Oleksiy has joined #prov-xg
15:53:36 [Luc]
zakim, who is here?
15:53:36 [Zakim]
On the phone I see YolandaG, Betty
15:53:37 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Oleksiy, jun, YolandaG, Zakim, RRSAgent, Luc, trackbot
15:55:05 [Luc]
zakim, who is here?
15:55:05 [Zakim]
On the phone I see YolandaG, Betty
15:55:06 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Oleksiy, jun, YolandaG, Zakim, RRSAgent, Luc, trackbot
15:57:19 [Christine]
Christine has joined #prov-xg
15:57:21 [Zakim]
+ +1.614.764.aaaa
15:57:32 [ssahoo2]
ssahoo2 has joined #prov-xg
15:57:49 [Luc]
zakim, who is here?
15:57:49 [Zakim]
On the phone I see YolandaG, Betty, +1.614.764.aaaa
15:57:50 [Zakim]
On IRC I see ssahoo2, Christine, Oleksiy, jun, YolandaG, Zakim, RRSAgent, Luc, trackbot
15:57:59 [michaelp]
michaelp has joined #prov-xg
15:58:01 [Zakim]
15:58:08 [Zakim]
+ +0012aabb
15:58:34 [cgi-irc]
cgi-irc has joined #prov-xg
15:58:38 [Zakim]
15:58:52 [jun]
zakim, mute me
15:58:59 [Zakim]
jun should now be muted
15:59:33 [keckert]
keckert has joined #prov-xg
15:59:59 [JoseMGP]
JoseMGP has joined #prov-xg
16:00:32 [JoseMGP]
who's on the phone?
16:00:38 [jchenet]
jchenet has joined #prov-xg
16:00:45 [Zakim]
16:00:51 [jcheney]
jcheney has joined #prov-xg
16:01:13 [Zakim]
16:01:17 [jun]
zakim, unmute me
16:01:17 [Zakim]
jun should no longer be muted
16:01:28 [Zakim]
+ +03491334aacc
16:01:32 [ivan]
ivan has joined #prov-xg
16:01:35 [jcheney]
zakim, ??P6 is me
16:01:35 [Zakim]
+jcheney; got it
16:01:46 [Zakim]
+ +1.540.449.aadd
16:01:57 [ivan]
zakim, dial ivan-voip
16:01:57 [Zakim]
ok, ivan; the call is being made
16:01:59 [Zakim]
16:02:31 [Zakim]
16:03:00 [keckert]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
16:03:00 [Zakim]
On the phone I see YolandaG, Betty, michaelp, [IPcaller], +0012aabb, jun, ??P7, jcheney, +03491334aacc, +1.540.449.aadd, Ivan, ??P10
16:03:07 [Luc]
16:03:51 [Zakim]
+ +1.915.747.aaee
16:03:56 [Luc]
user requirement 1 and technical requirement 1
16:04:15 [Luc]
UR1 -> UR16, TR1 -> TR16
16:04:48 [Luc]
16:05:43 [Luc]
16:05:51 [Luc]
16:05:57 [Paulo]
Paulo has joined #prov-xg
16:06:19 [Luc]
are there commonalities with other use cases
16:07:38 [Luc]
how can we share TRs across use cases/dimensions
16:07:52 [Luc]
YolandaG refers to the editors...
16:08:42 [Luc]
iterations are required by editors
16:08:56 [Zakim]
16:08:57 [YolandaG]
16:09:05 [Zakim]
+ +1.937.775.aaff
16:09:18 [Zakim]
+ +1.518.763.aagg
16:09:27 [Luc]
Do we need global IDs for requirements so we can refer to them.
16:10:30 [Luc]
PaulG had proposed URIs for these
16:11:00 [afreitas]
afreitas has joined #prov-xg
16:11:09 [Luc]
zakim, who is here?
16:11:09 [Zakim]
On the phone I see YolandaG, Betty, michaelp, [IPcaller], +0012aabb, jun, ??P7, jcheney, +03491334aacc, +1.540.449.aadd, Ivan, ??P10, +1.915.747.aaee, ??P13, +1.937.775.aaff,
16:11:12 [Zakim]
... +1.518.763.aagg
16:11:13 [Zakim]
On IRC I see afreitas, Paulo, ivan, jcheney, JoseMGP, keckert, michaelp, ssahoo2, Christine, Oleksiy, jun, YolandaG, Zakim, RRSAgent, Luc, trackbot
16:11:30 [Luc]
Action Jim Myers to propose a naming scheme for TR and UR
16:11:30 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - Jim
16:13:34 [Luc]
what if we find a requirement that is not reflected in a use case?
16:13:45 [Luc]
Do we have to modify use cases?
16:15:13 [Zakim]
- +1.518.763.aagg
16:15:17 [Luc]
YolandaG: in the list of requirements, there is no reference to versioning?
16:15:29 [Luc]
The requirements should be made more specific to versioning.
16:16:37 [Zakim]
+ +1.518.763.aahh
16:16:52 [Luc]
If appropriate, make reference to other areas, which have their own requirements.
16:17:54 [Luc]
Flag requirements that may not have been captured by use case, but appear to be relevant to provenance in the current context.
16:18:45 [Luc]
It is recognized that Use Cases will not illustrate all requirements.
16:20:12 [Luc]
With requirement, suggest how original use cases may need to be modified to expose the requirement.
16:20:59 [Luc]
In a first instance, let's not modify the narrative of use cases. We will do it in a second phase.
16:22:17 [Luc]
Final step will be to link requirements to state of the art.
16:22:34 [Zakim]
- +1.937.775.aaff
16:23:02 [Zakim]
+ +1.937.775.aaii
16:23:21 [Luc]
So conclusion, requirements should be as specific to the dimension as possible.
16:23:29 [ssahoo2]
I agree, yolanda
16:23:30 [michaelp]
16:25:31 [YolandaG]
16:26:03 [Luc]
michaelp: requirement to construct the version trail and reconstruct all versions of a particular document
16:26:12 [Luc]
what access points are needed for that?
16:26:42 [Luc]
- Management:Publication (
16:26:53 [Luc]
Management:Publication (
16:27:11 [Luc]
luc didn't have time to look at this week, sorry!
16:27:28 [Zakim]
- +1.518.763.aahh
16:28:19 [Luc]
Jun: Use case: how timely the data is
16:30:39 [Luc]
YolandaG: what does it mean to publish *minimum* provenance information
16:30:40 [Zakim]
+ +1.518.276.aajj
16:31:35 [JoseMGP]
zakim, who is here?
16:31:35 [Zakim]
On the phone I see YolandaG, Betty, michaelp, [IPcaller], +0012aabb, jun, ??P7, jcheney, +03491334aacc, +1.540.449.aadd, Ivan, ??P10, +1.915.747.aaee, ??P13, +1.937.775.aaii,
16:31:38 [Zakim]
... +1.518.276.aajj
16:31:39 [Zakim]
On IRC I see afreitas, Paulo, ivan, jcheney, JoseMGP, keckert, michaelp, ssahoo2, Christine, Oleksiy, jun, YolandaG, Zakim, RRSAgent, Luc, trackbot
16:32:23 [Luc]
YolandaG: we need the ability to publish provenance with different levels of details
16:32:46 [Deborah]
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16:32:52 [Luc]
YolandaG: the term minimum seems to imply there exists such a minimum and it's unique.
16:33:16 [Luc]
Jun: multiple levels of details also related to scalability
16:33:23 [Deborah]
+1 to different levels of details for provenance. that might correspond to "required" provenance for a particular application
16:34:33 [Paolo]
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16:35:03 [Luc]
Jim mentions this is also present in Accountability, where details relevant to contract are exposed, but not internal information.
16:35:56 [Zakim]
16:36:12 [Luc]
Use:Understanding (
16:36:18 [jun]
zakim, mute me
16:36:18 [Zakim]
jun should now be muted
16:38:09 [Deborah]
suggestion on UR3 - not just SMEs - I have applications that need to be able to provide explanations to different categories of users - not just SMEs
16:38:53 [Deborah]
16:39:09 [ivan]
ack michaelp
16:39:16 [ivan]
ack Deborah
16:39:43 [JoseMGP]
16:39:44 [JoseMGP]
16:39:54 [Paolo]
@deb: agree
16:40:03 [cgi-irc]
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16:40:35 [michaelp]
16:40:59 [Deborah]
and other types of users may have their own special requirements for presentations of the explanations
16:42:00 [YolandaG]
ack JoseMGP
16:42:04 [YolandaG]
ack michaelp
16:42:05 [Luc]
JoseMGP: provenance aware systems should be aware of the users they are interacting with
16:42:48 [JoseMGP]
16:43:03 [Luc]
michaelp: what is regarded/perceived as provenance is domain specific
16:44:17 [Paolo]
I was (as far as I remember)
16:44:19 [ssahoo2]
I think Paolo is there
16:44:26 [Paolo]
yes I can help
16:44:49 [Luc]
16:45:16 [Paolo]
16:45:49 [jun]
zakim, unmute me
16:45:49 [Zakim]
jun should no longer be muted
16:46:11 [YolandaG]
ack JoseMGP
16:46:15 [YolandaG]
ack Paolo
16:46:21 [jun]
16:46:36 [Deborah]
I would add TR 1.4 Applicstions should enable users to be able to annotate trust assessments at varying levels of granularity for web data and allow users to access this annotation
16:46:39 [Deborah]
16:47:19 [JoseMGP]
16:47:33 [Luc]
Paolo: is there a need for aggregation function on provenance?
16:48:39 [Paolo]
16:48:51 [ssahoo2]
+1 for including reasoning
16:49:23 [Paulo]
16:49:24 [Deborah]
+1 for including reasoning or for having some kind of trust calculus. I think this is quite important and i can give a use case if you want
16:50:50 [Luc]
Paolo: should the UC be detailed to the point that it mentions reasoning?
16:51:41 [Luc]
Paolo: it is not clear we can always aggregate provenance of sets of data
16:51:52 [YolandaG]
ack jun
16:52:37 [Luc]
Jun: add UC to dimension: allow users to contribute to trust of data
16:52:53 [ssahoo2]
16:52:58 [Luc]
Requirement for vocabulary for user contributed trust information
16:53:03 [jun]
16:53:41 [Luc]
Deborah: requirement for an explicit annotation of trust (whether calculated or annotated)
16:54:03 [Luc]
Trust required at different levels of granularity: tuple, sets, documents
16:54:25 [JoseMGP]
+1@Deborah's proposal
16:54:31 [YolandaG]
ack Deborah
16:54:33 [Luc]
Deborah: what's your third requirement?
16:54:37 [YolandaG]
ack Paulo
16:55:18 [Luc]
Paulo: trust for what? how is it used? computing trust is nice, but we need to know what the user would want to do with it.
16:55:34 [Deborah]
third requirement is supporting reasoning. I have applications that require trust computation, propagation, and combination methods.
16:55:46 [Luc]
16:56:17 [Deborah]
I have applications that require extensibility for types of trust combination methods (not just standard probabilistic combination)
16:56:51 [Paolo]
16:57:02 [YolandaG]
ack ssahoo
16:57:12 [cgi-irc]
if we expand from trust to general attention (when do I want to be alerted),it is even more clear that th trust/attention metrics have to be extensible/customizable
16:57:33 [Deborah]
+1 for the updating of trust point
16:57:54 [Luc]
ssahoo2: how is trust updated?
16:58:15 [ssahoo2]
16:58:20 [YolandaG]
ack Paolo
16:59:40 [Luc]
Paolo: trust could be presented to the user in the form of confidence
17:00:24 [Luc]
Paulo: but trust has also an element of subjectivity: user-specific rules
17:00:36 [jun]
zakim, mute me
17:00:36 [Zakim]
jun should now be muted
17:01:09 [Luc]
YolandaG: surprised to see 'causal graph' as a requirement. Is it requirement or assumption?
17:01:19 [Paolo]
there was a new use case sent to the list ercently.
17:01:24 [Paolo]
what do we do about it?
17:01:37 [Paolo]
from someone external I think?
17:01:41 [Luc]
F2F meeting at www conference
17:01:56 [Luc]
To take place on 25-26, a day before the conference starts
17:02:14 [Deborah]
i need to do a workshop on monday
17:02:49 [jun]
zakim, unmute me
17:02:49 [Zakim]
jun should no longer be muted
17:03:10 [Zakim]
- +1.518.276.aajj
17:03:44 [Zakim]
17:03:45 [Zakim]
- +1.915.747.aaee
17:03:45 [Zakim]
17:03:47 [Zakim]
17:03:47 [Zakim]
- +1.937.775.aaii
17:03:47 [Zakim]
- +1.540.449.aadd
17:03:50 [Zakim]
17:03:52 [Zakim]
17:03:54 [Zakim]
- +0012aabb
17:03:56 [Zakim]
17:04:00 [Zakim]
17:04:03 [Zakim]
17:04:07 [Zakim]
17:04:10 [Zakim]
17:04:16 [Zakim]
- +03491334aacc
17:04:19 [michaelp]
michaelp has left #prov-xg
17:04:24 [Luc]
zakim, who is here?
17:04:31 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Betty
17:04:36 [Zakim]
On IRC I see cgi-irc, Deborah, afreitas, Paulo, ivan, JoseMGP, YolandaG, Zakim, RRSAgent, Luc, trackbot
17:04:49 [Zakim]
17:04:50 [Zakim]
INC_PROVXG()11:00AM has ended
17:04:52 [Zakim]
Attendees were YolandaG, Betty, [IPcaller], +0012aabb, jun, michaelp, +03491334aacc, jcheney, +1.540.449.aadd, Ivan, +1.915.747.aaee, +1.937.775.aaff, +1.518.763.aagg,
17:04:55 [Zakim]
... +1.518.763.aahh, +1.937.775.aaii, +1.518.276.aajj
17:07:56 [Luc]
trackbot, end telcon
17:07:56 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
17:07:56 [Zakim]
sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
17:07:57 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
17:07:57 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate trackbot
17:07:58 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
17:07:58 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items
17:57:08 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #prov-xg
17:57:08 [RRSAgent]
logging to
17:57:34 [mauro]
rrsagent, draft minutes
17:57:34 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate mauro
17:57:59 [mauro]
rrsagent, make logs public
17:58:27 [mauro]
YolandaG, minutes are available now
17:58:59 [mauro]
rrsagent, bye
17:58:59 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items