15:23:26 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdfa
15:23:26 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/01/21-rdfa-irc
15:23:28 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdfa
15:23:33 <manu-home> zakim, this will be rdfa
15:23:33 <Zakim> ok, manu-home; I see SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM scheduled to start in 37 minutes
15:23:45 <manu-home> Meeting: RDFa in XHTML Task Force
15:24:45 <manu-home> Regrets: Mark_Birbeck, Ben_Adida
15:25:04 <manu-home> Present: Manu_Sporny, Ivan_Herman, Shane_McCarron, Steven_Pemberton
15:25:21 <manu-home> rrsagent, make logs public
15:25:28 <manu-home> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:25:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/01/21-rdfa-minutes.html manu-home
15:25:56 <manu-home> Chair: Manu Sporny
15:28:08 <manu> scribenick: manu
15:28:55 <manu> s/manu-home/manu/g
15:29:12 <manu> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:29:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/01/21-rdfa-minutes.html manu
15:30:23 <manu> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2010Jan/0053.html
15:30:38 <manu> Previous: http://www.w3.org/2010/01/14-rdfa-minutes.html
16:01:11 <Steven> Steven has joined #rdfa
16:01:19 <Steven> zakim, who is here?
16:01:19 <Zakim> SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has not yet started, Steven
16:01:20 <Zakim> On IRC I see Steven, Zakim, RRSAgent, manu, ivan
16:01:35 <Steven> scribe: steven
16:01:58 <Steven> Chair: Manu
16:02:08 <manu> Thanks Steven - everything should be setup
16:02:16 <manu> for you to scribe :) -- thanks for scribing :)
16:02:34 <Zakim> SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has now started
16:02:36 <Steven> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2010Jan/0053
16:02:41 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
16:02:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/01/21-rdfa-minutes.html Steven
16:02:41 <Zakim> +??P34
16:02:44 <manu> zakim, I am ??P34
16:02:44 <Zakim> +manu; got it
16:03:11 <Steven> scribenick: Steven
16:03:18 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-mobile
16:03:18 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
16:03:20 <Zakim> +Steven
16:03:38 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
16:03:38 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
16:03:40 <Zakim> +Ivan
16:03:47 <Zakim> +ShaneM
16:05:24 <Steven> Manu: We may not have quorum today, so we won't be able to talk about everything
16:06:25 <Steven> Steven: Tesco, the largest UK retailer has started using RDFa, see rdfa.info for a link to an example
16:07:01 <Steven> Manu: We know the person who did hProduct, he's at Best Buy
16:07:22 <Steven> ... in charge of their future web stuff
16:07:56 <Steven> Ivan: Yahoo has announced it will join the WG
16:08:18 <manu> s/Yahoo/A large company/g
16:08:46 <Steven> ... we have 4 days to go
16:08:53 <Steven> ... before the deadline
16:09:08 <Steven> Topic: Action items
16:09:10 <manu> http://www.w3.org/2010/01/14-rdfa-minutes.html#ActionSummary
16:09:20 <Steven> ACTION: ShaneM to identify the requirements for html2ps and see about getting reSpec to support them.
16:09:29 <Steven> -- continues
16:09:48 <Steven> Shane: I've been contacting Robin, still on it
16:10:08 <Steven> ACTION:  Manu to get in touch with LibXML developers about TC 142.
16:10:14 <Steven> -- continues
16:10:27 <Steven> ACTION:  Mark to generate spec text for @token and @prefix
16:10:32 <Steven> -- continues
16:10:40 <Steven> Manu: Mark hopes to have that done by tomorrow
16:10:52 <Steven> ACTION:  Mark to generate spec text for pulling in external vocabulary documents
16:10:56 <Steven> -- continues
16:11:12 <Steven> Topic: RDFa Community Updates
16:11:26 <Steven> Manu: Toby Inkster has asked to become an invited expert
16:11:36 <Steven> ... people support this
16:11:52 <Steven> ... Toby has done a number of semweb parsers
16:11:58 <ivan> q+
16:12:03 <Steven> ... I've worked with him in microformats
16:12:08 <Steven> ... good guy
16:12:14 <Steven> ... on the rdfa-tf mailing list
16:12:21 <Steven> ... he's very thorough
16:12:37 <manu> ack ivan
16:16:39 <ShaneM> ShaneM has joined #rdfa
16:17:15 <Zakim> +ShaneM.a
16:17:17 <Zakim> -ShaneM
16:17:17 <Steven> [Discussion of invited expert process]
16:17:27 <ShaneM> zakim, ShaneM.a is ShaneM
16:17:27 <Zakim> +ShaneM; got it
16:19:54 <Steven> Manu: Mediawiki discussion
16:20:09 <Steven> ... big discussion
16:20:37 <Steven> ... people saying microdata should be used for license information
16:20:45 <Steven> ... lots of misconceptions
16:20:53 <Steven> ... some FUD
16:21:08 <Steven> ... I responded
16:21:46 <Steven> ... End result is that the mediawiki people are discussing their own syntax
16:21:56 <ivan> q+
16:22:27 <Steven> Ivan: There is a semantic media wiki already
16:22:39 <Steven> ... not easy to use
16:22:47 <Steven> ... but once set up, decent
16:23:04 <manu> Here's the discussion: http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/wiki/wikitech/186906?do=post_view_threaded
16:23:08 <Steven> ... the issue for us is not the syntax they use, but the generated HTML
16:23:26 <Steven> ... which *is* relevant
16:23:41 <Steven> ack ivan
16:23:50 <Steven> Ivan: A wider issue
16:24:32 <Steven> ... what is the difference between microdata and the version of RDFa we are discussing?
16:24:56 <Steven> ... Can't we reconcile these things?
16:25:05 <Steven> ... with microdata as a subset of RDFa
16:25:09 <Steven> Manu: Good point
16:25:20 <Steven> ... microdata is changing
16:25:28 <Steven> ... maybe three things that are different
16:25:47 <Steven> ... so wikimedia people said, well if they are so similar, it doesn't matter which we choose
16:26:22 <Steven> Ivan: We need some cool-headed people to try and reconcile them and get rid of the stupid religious discussion
16:26:46 <Steven> Manu: CURIEs, how to express datatypes, and one other thing
16:26:52 <Steven> ... those are the differences
16:27:17 <Steven> Manu: and we need default prefixing
16:30:15 <Steven> Manu: Danbri volunteered to do a comparison of microdata and RDFa
16:30:42 <manu> ACTION: Manu to contact Dan Brickley to discuss Microdata to RDFa mapping.
16:31:24 <Steven> Manu: microdata supports fully qualified names
16:31:55 <Steven> ... with a mapping mechanism, but everything is hardcoded, with only three vocabularies
16:32:04 <Steven> .... otherwise you have to use the full URI
16:32:09 <ShaneM> wow - that's *MUCH* better than RDFa.    NOT
16:32:32 <Steven> Ivan: RDFa 1 microdata 0
16:32:53 <Steven> Manu: The short name is hardcoded
16:33:02 <ShaneM> q+ to ask about vocabs in microdata
16:33:50 <manu> ack shanem
16:33:50 <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to ask about vocabs in microdata
16:34:22 <Steven> Ivan: We need to address the issue of hardcoded names
16:34:34 <Steven> Shane: I think that is already addressed.
16:35:12 <Steven> Shane: So the vocabs are not extensible
16:35:26 <Steven> Manu: No. To get a new vocab in is to update HTML5
16:35:48 <Steven> Shane: But the whole point of RDFa is extensibility and discoverability
16:36:27 <Steven> Ivan: So to do microdata, I have to check the HTML5 list weekly and update the implementation? That is absolutely unrealistic
16:36:54 <Steven> Manu: You have to understand a lot about the semweb to understand these points
16:37:49 <Steven> ... some of the wikimedia people don't understand why a page needs inbedded semantics
16:38:24 <Steven> ... HTML5 people haven't grasped the extensible vocabulary concept properly yet
16:39:07 <Steven> Shane: There are so many examples!
16:39:16 <Steven> Manu: I've tried to point them to them
16:41:32 <ShaneM>                    foaf                        dc                        owl                        rdf                        rdfs                        skos                        xsd                        dbp                        d2rq                        sioc        
16:41:57 <manu> We could pre-define those in RDFa 1.1
16:42:07 <manu> that would make some WHAT WG folks happy
16:42:08 <Steven> Manu: We can hardcode some prefixes for the most used cases
16:42:54 <Steven> Manu: Subtopic HTML WG discussion
16:43:13 <Steven> ... next draft for HTML+RDFa is ready to go, and will be published I think
16:43:24 <Steven> ... some objections to the microdata spec
16:43:33 <Steven> ... from a couple of people
16:43:57 <Steven> ... who are asking why W3C has two solutions for this
16:44:03 <Steven> ... both are saying use RDFa
16:44:17 <Steven> ... and one says that the HTML WG shouldn't even be looking at it
16:47:41 <Steven> Topic: RDFa vocabs
16:47:48 <Steven> Ivan: I did send a comment
16:48:20 <Steven> ... there are some holes in the discussion
16:50:12 <Steven> Ivan: [scribe misses the point]
16:50:45 <Steven> q+
16:51:17 <Steven> Ivan: It is easy for us to understand that 'next' is mapped
16:51:35 <Steven> SHane: I thought we were extending keywords to all places where you can have CURIEs
16:51:40 <Steven> s/SH/Sh/
16:51:50 <Steven> ... I think it eases implementation
16:51:59 <Steven> ... it's about consistency
16:52:15 <Steven> Ivan: It is not a proposal, but a question
16:54:40 <Steven> Shane: I would like this to happen
16:55:03 <Steven> Manu: Having 'next' in @typeof wouldn't make sense
16:55:12 <Steven> ... in @resource maybe
16:55:16 <ivan> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2010Jan/0047.html
16:55:18 <Steven> ... in @property?
16:55:54 <ivan> q+
16:55:55 <Steven> Manu: We can discuss this when the WG starts up
16:56:00 <manu> ack steven
16:56:50 <manu> ack ivan
16:57:11 <Steven> Ivan: The mail above contains my point that was not scribes
16:57:35 <Steven> Ivan: On a related point, there is a discussion going on about a registration mechanism for rel/rev/role
16:57:49 <Steven> .... Mark Nottingham is proposing it
16:58:32 <Steven> http://www.mnot.net/drafts/draft-nottingham-http-link-header-01.txt
16:58:56 <Steven> Manu: I din't realise it was progrssing
16:59:02 <Steven> s/ss/ess/
16:59:08 <Steven> s/din/didn/
16:59:27 <Steven> Shane: I have been participating in that discussion
17:00:14 <Steven> ... saying that the rel values were described in HTML4, and we (XHTML WG) has put them in a registry (http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/vocab)
17:00:24 <Steven> s/has/have/
17:00:50 <Steven> Ivan: I don't know where this will end, Harry Halpin has an action item in W3C to follow up
17:01:55 <manu> Steven: Our values of @rel are much more widely usable.
17:01:58 <Steven> STeven: Mnot's version is for http link vlaues
17:02:23 <Steven> Ivan: It will come into our vocab discussion
17:02:31 <Steven> ADJOURN
17:02:34 <Zakim> -ShaneM
17:02:37 <Zakim> -manu
17:02:37 <Zakim> -Steven
17:02:43 <ivan> ivan has left #rdfa
17:02:44 <manu> Manu: Perhaps we need to have something that is jointly run by W3C, IETF and IANA
17:02:49 <ShaneM> ShaneM has left #rdfa
17:03:03 <Steven> rrsagentm who is here?
17:03:06 <Steven> yes
17:03:11 <Steven> rrsagent, who is here?
17:03:11 <RRSAgent> I'm logging.  Sorry, nothing found for 'who is here'
17:03:19 <Steven> zakim, who is here?
17:03:19 <Zakim> On the phone I see Ivan
17:03:20 <Zakim> On IRC I see Steven, Zakim, RRSAgent, manu
17:03:24 <Steven> zakim, drop Ivan
17:03:24 <Zakim> Ivan is being disconnected
17:03:25 <Zakim> SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has ended
17:03:28 <Zakim> Attendees were manu, Steven, Ivan, ShaneM
17:03:34 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
17:03:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/01/21-rdfa-minutes.html Steven
17:04:33 <Steven> s/Toby Inkster/Someone/
17:04:44 <Steven> s/Toby//
17:06:22 <Steven> s|scribe misses the point|http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2010Jan/0047.html|
17:06:27 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
17:06:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/01/21-rdfa-minutes.html Steven
17:07:05 <Steven> s/ST?St/
17:07:10 <Steven> s/ST/St/
17:07:24 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
17:07:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/01/21-rdfa-minutes.html Steven
17:07:49 <Steven> s/ST/St/
17:07:52 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
17:07:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/01/21-rdfa-minutes.html Steven
17:08:18 <Steven> s/vlaues/values
17:08:21 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
17:08:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/01/21-rdfa-minutes.html Steven