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14:34:56 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/01/13-dap-irc
14:34:58 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:34:58 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #dap
14:35:00 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be DAP
14:35:00 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see UW_DAP()10:00AM scheduled to start in 25 minutes
14:35:01 <trackbot> Meeting: Device APIs and Policy Working Group Teleconference
14:35:01 <trackbot> Date: 13 January 2010
14:35:17 <dom> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2010Jan/0092.html
14:35:27 <dom> Chair: Frederick_Hirsch, Robin_Berjon
14:35:40 <dom> Regrets: John_Morris
14:37:31 <dom> Regrets+ Laura_Arribas
14:40:34 <paddy> paddy has joined #dap
14:47:56 <fhirsch> fhirsch has joined #dap
14:51:46 <fjh> fjh has changed the topic to: DAP code 3279 agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2010Jan/0092.html register attendance with Present+ first_last, update handle with zakim, aaaa is handle
14:51:56 <fjh> Present: Frederick_Hirsch, Robin_Berjon
14:52:19 <marengo> marengo has joined #dap
14:53:05 <Zakim> UW_DAP()10:00AM has now started
14:53:12 <Zakim> +??P3
14:53:15 <marengo> Zakim, mute me
14:53:15 <Zakim> sorry, marengo, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
14:53:24 <marengo> Present+ Marco_Marengo
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14:55:34 <Dzung_Tran> Present+ Dzung_Tran
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14:56:11 <Zakim> + +1.978.250.aaaa
14:56:31 <paddy> Present+ Paddy_Byers
14:56:39 <Dzung_Tran> Regrets, I can only be on for 40mins today.
14:56:47 <paddy> zakim, +1.978.250.aaaa is paddy
14:56:47 <Zakim> +paddy; got it
14:57:51 <Zakim> +AnssiK
14:57:55 <fhirsch> zakim, what is the code?
14:57:55 <Zakim> the conference code is 3279 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), fhirsch
14:58:01 <paddy> ScribeNick: paddy
14:58:25 <AnssiK> Present+ Anssi_Kostiainen
14:58:38 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:58:49 <fhirsch> zakim, [IPcaller] is fjh
14:58:50 <Zakim> +fjh; got it
14:59:09 <Claes> Claes has joined #dap
14:59:46 <Zakim> +ilkka
14:59:51 <wonsuk> wonsuk has joined #dap
14:59:59 <ilkka> Present+ Ilkka_Oksanen
15:00:11 <Zakim> +??P13
15:00:17 <wonsuk> Present+ Wonsuk_Lee
15:00:17 <darobin> Zakim, ??P13 is me
15:00:17 <Zakim> +darobin; got it
15:00:27 <darobin> Present+ Robin_Berjon
15:00:47 <Zakim> +claes
15:01:05 <Zakim> +Dom
15:01:18 <dom> Present+ Dominique_Hazael-Massieux
15:01:31 <Claes> Present+ Claes_Nilsson
15:01:49 <dom> zakim, drop ??P3
15:01:49 <Zakim> ??P3 is being disconnected
15:01:51 <Zakim> -??P3
15:02:38 <richt> richt has joined #dap
15:02:41 <darobin> Regrets+ Dzung Tran
15:02:45 <darobin> Regrets+ Max Froumentin
15:03:11 <Zakim> +richt
15:03:16 <Zakim> +wonsuk
15:03:20 <paddy> Topic: approval of minutes from 16 January
15:03:21 <richt> Present+ Richard_Tibbett
15:03:28 <fjh> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2010Jan/att-0036/minutes-2010-01-06.html
15:03:43 <paddy> RESOLUTION: minutes from 6 January are approved
15:03:52 <paddy> Topic: Editorial update
15:03:58 <drogersuk> drogersuk has joined #dap
15:04:03 <paddy> fjh: any editors got any updates?
15:04:04 <Zakim> +nwidell
15:04:14 <paddy> Topic: Policy
15:04:25 <paddy> fjh: sent message to TAG as discussed
15:04:31 <Zakim> +??P29
15:04:32 <fjh> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2010Jan/0041.html
15:04:34 <nwidell> nwidell has joined #dap
15:04:35 <paddy> .. TAG acknowledged it and some discussion on list
15:04:49 <fjh> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2010Jan/0067.html
15:04:52 <drogersuk> present+ David_Rogers
15:05:03 <dom> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2010Jan/0086.html Noah's response suggesting defining extensibility points for privacy
15:05:08 <nwidell> Present+ Niklas_Widell
15:05:19 <fjh> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2010Jan/0086.html (
15:05:24 <paddy> .. Noah suggested using "extensibility point" for privacy
15:05:38 <paddy> .. could allow different means of passing privacy information as a general direction
15:05:42 <paddy> .. anyone any thoughts on this?
15:05:59 <paddy> .. Next step is to get into more detail, define use cases etc
15:06:11 <paddy> .. will leave this discussion to list
15:06:19 <fjh> Virtual web services
15:06:34 <paddy> .. Other topic is virtual web services and there has been some discussion of this on list
15:06:46 <fjh> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2010Jan/0061.html 
15:06:52 <marcin> marcin has joined #dap
15:06:58 <paddy> .. I thought the approach suggesting using OAuth or other web-based authentication mechanisms
15:07:02 <marcin> Present+ Marcin_Hanclik
15:07:12 <fjh> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2010Jan/0068.html
15:07:20 <paddy> darobin: I thought OAuth was mentioned as something used on web generally, not necessarily solution for local case
15:07:36 <paddy> .. I don't think Mark was proposing this for the local case
15:07:46 <dom> -> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2009/09/apis-on-the-web.html John Kemp's early work on JavaScript using HTTP-like APIs
15:07:50 <paddy> fjh: richt asked whether or not it is necessary to actually run a web server
15:08:01 <Zakim> + +49.208.829.0.aabb
15:08:03 <paddy> .. I think the answer was no, there are alternative implementations
15:08:11 <marcin> Zakim, aabb is marcin
15:08:11 <Zakim> +marcin; got it
15:08:18 <paddy> .. I don't have a clear picture of what's being proposed
15:08:23 <Zakim> + +39.011.228.aacc
15:08:26 <Zakim> +Suresh
15:08:28 <paddy> .. darobin do you have a better understanding?
15:08:42 <marengo> zakim, +39.011.228.aacc is marengo
15:08:42 <Zakim> +marengo; got it
15:08:51 <paddy> darobin: I think the idea was to provide the same functionality as a normal API but exposed via XHR or similar
15:08:53 <marengo> Zakim, mute me
15:08:53 <Zakim> marengo should now be muted
15:09:02 <Suresh> Suresh has joined #dap
15:09:05 <paddy> .. like using a RESTful service, except that it's local
15:09:12 <Suresh> Present+ first_last
15:09:21 <paddy> .. happy to take on an action to flesh out what Mark said so it can be discussed in more detail
15:09:34 <paddy> fjh: wanted to be explicit that it is different from defining a JS API
15:09:43 <darobin> ACTION: Robin to flesh out Mark's device as local web service proposal, using a Geo-based example
15:09:43 <trackbot> Created ACTION-81 - Flesh out Mark's device as local web service proposal, using a Geo-based example [on Robin Berjon - due 2010-01-20].
15:09:50 <dom> s/first_last/Suresh_Chitturi/
15:09:53 <paddy> .. I don't think it removes the requirement to define a policy framework (question)
15:10:09 <paddy> .. want to be clear on how much we are proposing changing what is already being discussed
15:10:21 <dom> [any objection to me raising an issue to match that discussion?]
15:10:23 <paddy> darobin: will try to address as much as possible by fleshing out an example
15:10:38 <Suresh> q+
15:10:42 <paddy> fjh: any further coomments on this?
15:10:47 <fhirsch> ack suresh
15:11:33 <paddy> suresh: my initial reaction is that there are various things to discuss such as what does it mean to the approach we took so far
15:11:48 <paddy> .. is it truly that all the functionality we are interested in can be abstracted as a web service
15:11:51 <dom> q+ to suggest creating an issue
15:11:59 <paddy> .. does it have an implication on how a Web Runtime is designed to operate?
15:12:20 <paddy> .. I think we need to understand the implications in a lot more depth before we can know how to take it forward
15:12:31 <dom> q+ to note that Firefox's geolocation API implementation is backed by a... Web service (last I checked)
15:12:49 <paddy> .. if we are in a situation in which this model only addresses a subset of APIs in our charter, then will we end up with multiple approaches?
15:12:54 <paddy> .. I think we have to be very careful
15:12:55 <fhirsch> ack dom
15:12:55 <Zakim> dom, you wanted to suggest creating an issue and to note that Firefox's geolocation API implementation is backed by a... Web service (last I checked)
15:12:57 <paddy> fjh: agree
15:13:15 <paddy> dom: we should definitely create an issue to document the outcome of the discussion
15:13:18 <fhirsch> q+ to ask about timeline
15:13:40 <darobin> ISSUE: Investigation around Virtual Web Devices
15:13:40 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-66 - Investigation around Virtual Web Devices ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/issues/66/edit .
15:13:41 <paddy> .. second point is that from memory the Firefox implementation of geolocation is based on a web service
15:13:52 <paddy> .. that's interesting in relation to this proposal
15:14:17 <richt> for the future I think web services = RESTful web apis
15:14:26 <paddy> .. ie it is a RESTful server (internally making GET requests and getting geolocation data back)
15:14:30 <darobin> q?
15:14:45 <fhirsch> ack fjh
15:14:48 <paddy> darobin: entered action and issue already
15:14:51 <fhirsch> ack Frederick_Hirsch
15:14:51 <Zakim> Frederick_Hirsch, you wanted to ask about timeline
15:15:06 <paddy> fjh: what is the timeline for this analysis?
15:15:20 <paddy> we want to do this issue investigation but don't want to stall existing work
15:15:27 <paddy> .. so what is our timeline on this?
15:15:49 <paddy> darobin: share concern, so the intent is that this investigation will take 1-2 weeks
15:16:00 <paddy> .. a few days to write up, 10 days or so discussion
15:16:15 <paddy> .. at that point at least we can decide whether or not it merits deeper investigation
15:16:20 <richt> to record my view, I think XHR is one implementation option for the current JS API but that does not disallow other methods of implementation
15:16:32 <paddy> fjh: anything else to discuss on policy?
15:16:37 <marcin> NAP: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2009Oct/0092.html
15:16:41 <paddy> Topic: API segment
15:17:02 <paddy> darobin: first item is whether or not we agree to publish contacts as FPWD
15:17:14 <paddy> .. no objections to CFP last week
15:17:21 <dom> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2010Jan/0038.html CfC for publishing contacts as FPWD
15:17:25 <paddy> .. so are there any objections here?
15:17:25 <richt> q+ on outstanding editorial updates
15:17:35 <paddy> RESOLUTION: publish contacts as FPWD
15:17:52 <paddy> richt: although no objections, there are some updates pending
15:18:02 <fjh> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2010Jan0083.html
15:18:03 <paddy> .. do we publish as-is, or fix editorial issues first?
15:18:16 <paddy> darobin: aren't they just minor?
15:18:23 <fhirsch> q+
15:18:27 <paddy> richt: mostly minor
15:18:31 <darobin> ack richt 
15:18:31 <Zakim> richt, you wanted to comment on outstanding editorial updates
15:18:35 <dom> q+
15:18:43 <paddy> darobin: why not fix minor issues first and then publish in next few days
15:19:07 <paddy> fjh: was wondering about status of editorial comments, we should do the non-controversial ones
15:19:11 <fhirsch> ack Frederick_Hirsch
15:19:17 <paddy> richt: edits in progress but not uploaded yet
15:19:30 <paddy> .. attribute naming etc can be worked on after FPWD
15:19:35 <darobin> ack dom
15:19:47 <fhirsch> zakim, who is making noise?
15:19:58 <Zakim> fhirsch, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: darobin (25%), Dom (80%)
15:20:26 <paddy> dom: should I be waiting for signal from richt to transition to FPWD?
15:20:42 <fhirsch> Publications only happen on Tuesdays and Thursdays, correct
15:20:44 <paddy> richt: I will send update over next few days, and then it will transition to FPWD
15:21:00 <paddy> don: I don't think there is any problem, no need to wait for next week's call
15:21:01 <tlr> zakim, call thomas-781
15:21:01 <Zakim> ok, tlr; the call is being made
15:21:02 <Zakim> +Thomas
15:21:09 <tlr> zakim, I am thomas
15:21:11 <Zakim> ok, tlr, I now associate you with Thomas
15:21:11 <tlr> zakim, mute me
15:21:12 <paddy> .. but when do I know when the doc is ready?
15:21:14 <Zakim> Thomas should now be muted
15:21:28 <dom> ACTION: Dom to request transition of Contacts API as First Public Working Draft when pinged by Robin
15:21:28 <trackbot> Created ACTION-82 - Request transition of Contacts API as First Public Working Draft when pinged by Robin [on Dominique Hazaël-Massieux - due 2010-01-20].
15:21:31 <paddy> darobin: I will work with richt on ReSpec issues etc and will ping dom when done
15:21:42 <darobin> ACTION: Robin to ping Dom when Contacts FPWD is ready
15:21:42 <trackbot> Created ACTION-83 - Ping Dom when Contacts FPWD is ready [on Robin Berjon - due 2010-01-20].
15:22:10 <paddy> darobin: next topic is encouraging people to discuss capture API
15:22:15 <darobin> -< http://www.w3.org/mid/6B36E0FB-64A7-4E81-8639-67DB7FCDD7E3@robineko.com
15:22:42 <fhirsch> action-74?
15:22:42 <trackbot> ACTION-74 -- Robin Berjon to send an email to list summarising the options for <input> or not in Capture -- due 2009-12-16 -- CLOSED
15:22:42 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/actions/74
15:22:43 <paddy> .. to summarise, there has been a debate about using <input>, new API, <device> proposal etc
15:22:44 <Dzung_Tran> Should we keep the capture API simple for version 1.0 or extended to cover some advanced use cases
15:22:51 <paddy> .. so a bit of a topic that's been all over the place
15:23:01 <paddy> .. so have come up with a rough proposal for 3 docs:
15:23:14 <paddy> .. 1) simple capture, not embedded
15:23:24 <paddy> .. 2) embeded viewfinder use case
15:23:38 <paddy> .. 3) streaming use case
15:23:44 <dom> q+
15:23:51 <paddy> .. encourage people to jump into the thread and comment
15:23:56 <paddy> .. are there any comments now?
15:24:10 <paddy> dom: I guess this proposal is that current proposal for capture is moot?
15:24:23 <paddy> darobin: not completely, but it would need to be changed a lot?
15:24:32 <paddy> dom: where would it fit in your 3 docs?
15:24:59 <paddy> darobin: probably in the second doc, some aspects would be relevant such as start, stop etc, except architected differently
15:25:18 <paddy> .. next topic is "where does it all hang off of?"
15:25:27 <paddy> .. most list discussion was in favour of option (1)
15:25:44 <paddy> .. to clarify, this was the one with navigator.device.<api>.<method>
15:26:04 <richt> q+
15:26:05 <paddy> .. people found it clearer, more extensible, less conflict with other existing properties of navigator
15:26:08 <AnssiK> I'm questioning whether device is something we're happy with, instead of service or something else
15:26:10 <dom> q-
15:26:14 <paddy> ..  any objections to (1)?
15:26:20 <paddy> richt: agree with (1)
15:26:31 <paddy> .. but proposed using a name different from "device"
15:26:44 <paddy> .. would prefer to rename to something more generic
15:26:50 <paddy> .. sent email to the list to that effect
15:26:55 <dom> ISSUE-44?
15:26:55 <trackbot> ISSUE-44 -- What do APIs hang off of? -- RAISED
15:26:55 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/issues/44
15:27:12 <Suresh> Naming discussion is not easy:-)
15:27:17 <darobin> ack richt 
15:27:25 <paddy> darobin: saw email, wary of getting into unwelcome discussion of irrelevant and arbitrary issues
15:27:32 <paddy> .. we can split into two separate decisions
15:27:49 <paddy> .. 1) do we resolve to go with (1), irrespective of the name
15:27:53 <marcin> FWIF: navigator.service.* could handle device and network APIs
15:27:55 <paddy> .. 2) what the property name is
15:27:55 <dom> window.navigator.universe-and-everthing
15:28:08 <dom> s/evert/everyt/
15:28:22 <drogersuk> +1 on option 1
15:28:22 <Suresh> deviceService?
15:28:27 <paddy> darobin: does anyone object to resolution to go with (1)?
15:28:50 <drogersuk> (assuming option 1 was option 1 from the email)
15:28:59 <paddy> RESOLUTION: to go with option (1) for "where does it all hang off of?" but without a decision yet on the specific property name
15:29:02 <darobin> 1. Service object, simple method, inside device e.g. navigator.device.dahut.graze()
15:29:41 <paddy> darobin: will raise an issue for naming of "device" part or do people not want to get into discussion?
15:29:53 <paddy> marcin: need a resolution as much as possible
15:29:59 <AnssiK> I'd prefer a short and simple name, thus prefer e.g. service over deviceService
15:30:03 <paddy> .. agreement on something is more important on what the actual name uis
15:30:14 <richt> RE: naming, my proposal (still option 1) is: navigator.service.dahut.graze()
15:30:16 <paddy> darobin: will raise an issue that can be resolved next week
15:30:21 <paddy> .. ok?
15:30:35 <darobin> ISSUE: in navigator.device, should "device" be "service" or something else?
15:30:35 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-67 - In navigator.device, should "device" be "service" or something else? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/issues/67/edit .
15:31:07 <paddy> darobin: next topic is Max' action-80 on sys info but lets defer since Max is not here
15:31:16 <dom> close ISSUE-44
15:31:16 <trackbot> ISSUE-44 What do APIs hang off of? closed
15:31:18 <paddy> .. so is there anything else anyone wishes to discuss?
15:31:32 <richt> thanks, bye
15:31:33 <paddy> .. ajourned
15:31:34 <Zakim> -Thomas
15:31:36 <Zakim> -fjh
15:31:37 <Zakim> -Suresh
15:31:37 <Zakim> -Dom
15:31:38 <Zakim> -claes
15:31:39 <Zakim> -richt
15:31:40 <marcin> thanks & bye
15:31:40 <AnssiK> AnssiK has left #dap
15:31:40 <nwidell> quit
15:31:41 <Zakim> -darobin
15:31:43 <Zakim> -marengo
15:31:45 <Zakim> -marcin
15:31:47 <Zakim> -paddy
15:31:49 <Zakim> -AnssiK
15:31:51 <Zakim> -wonsuk
15:31:53 <Zakim> -??P29
15:31:53 <fhirsch> y
15:31:55 <Zakim> -ilkka
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15:32:01 <fhirsch> rrsagent, generate minutes
15:32:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/01/13-dap-minutes.html fhirsch
15:32:04 <Zakim> -nwidell
15:32:05 <Zakim> UW_DAP()10:00AM has ended
15:32:07 <Zakim> Attendees were paddy, AnssiK, fjh, ilkka, darobin, claes, Dom, richt, wonsuk, nwidell, +49.208.829.0.aabb, marcin, Suresh, marengo, Thomas
15:35:49 <Zakim> UW_DAP()10:00AM has now started
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15:36:00 <Zakim> -??P2
15:36:01 <Zakim> UW_DAP()10:00AM has ended
15:36:01 <Zakim> Attendees were 
15:36:16 <Zakim> UW_DAP()10:00AM has now started
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15:36:23 <Zakim> +arve
15:36:41 <dom> arve, call has already been adjourned
15:36:51 <Zakim> -arve
15:36:52 <Zakim> UW_DAP()10:00AM has ended
15:36:52 <Zakim> Attendees were arve
15:37:00 <arve> ah
15:37:03 <arve> explains a bit
15:37:14 <arve> I got stuck behind no less than two accidents on my way home
15:38:31 <dom> ouch
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15:46:23 <dom> darobin, I'm thinking I could actually make the transition request for the Contacts API now; it's only the publication request that needs the final version — you're ok with that?
15:46:32 <arve> yup - makes what would ordinarily have been a 30-35 minute ride home one hour ten
15:55:20 <darobin> dom: yes, right, please go ahead!
15:55:26 <dom> ok, thx
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