IRC log of CSS on 2010-01-13

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:35:31 [RRSAgent]
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/01/13-CSS-irc
16:35:39 [glazou]
Zakim, this will be Style
16:35:39 [Zakim]
ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 25 minutes
16:36:25 [arronei]
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16:42:24 [glazou]
RRSAgent, make logs public
16:53:33 [dethbakin]
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16:59:10 [smfr]
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16:59:15 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
16:59:20 [plinss]
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16:59:22 [Zakim]
+smfr
16:59:57 [Zakim]
+plinss
17:00:07 [Zakim]
+dethbakin
17:00:19 [Zakim]
+TabAtkins
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+[Mozilla]
17:01:02 [Zakim]
+bradk
17:01:27 [glazou]
Zakim, code?
17:01:27 [Zakim]
the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), glazou
17:01:38 [dbaron]
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17:01:45 [Zakim]
+??P11
17:02:06 [plinss]
zakim, this is style
17:02:06 [Zakim]
plinss, this was already Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
17:02:07 [Zakim]
ok, plinss; that matches Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
17:03:01 [glazou]
bridge refuses me, hold on please
17:03:44 [Zakim]
+glazou
17:03:48 [glazou]
finally
17:05:03 [Zakim]
+Bert
17:05:08 [sylvaing]
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+sylvaing
17:06:33 [TabAtkins]
By the way, I'll be in SF tomorrow evening with nothing to do. Anyone in the area want to meet for a late dinner?
17:06:35 [CesarAcebal]
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17:06:52 [sylvaing]
how can you have nothing to do in SF ?
17:07:17 [fantasai]
ScribeNick: fantasai
17:07:42 [fantasai]
Happy New Year everyone
17:07:53 [Zakim]
+CesarAcebal
17:07:53 [ChrisL]
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17:07:58 [TabAtkins]
Because all I'm doing is flying down and waiting for the next day for my interview.
17:08:09 [TabAtkins]
"Late" is relative - I'll arrive about 6:45
17:08:12 [fantasai]
Topic: CSS2.1 Test Suite
17:08:23 [fantasai]
Peter: Calling it done in a few days, see where we are
17:08:48 [bradk]
Not this time Tab. SF is about 35 minute drive for me, but I'm busy tomorrow night.
17:08:52 [Zakim]
+ChrisL
17:09:12 [fantasai]
fantasai: Not all tests are indexable yet -- e.g. hixie's tests don't have metadata
17:09:18 [fantasai]
fantasai: Microsoft's tests are now all indexable
17:10:13 [fantasai]
fantasai: Plan is to publish a snapshot soon so we have a good sense of where we are
17:10:25 [fantasai]
dbaron: So I'm expecting to post a refresh of Mozilla's submissions soon, sometime this week
17:10:31 [dbaron]
aware of issues in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-css-testsuite/2009Sep/0012.html
17:10:36 [fantasai]
dbaron: Boris has some run-in tests that he plans to write and submit
17:11:16 [fantasai]
http://test.csswg.org/source/tools/
17:11:32 [glazou]
TabAtkins: he is still on
17:11:43 [Zakim]
-TabAtkins
17:12:26 [Zakim]
+TabAtkins
17:12:58 [fantasai]
glazou: What's ETA for another snapshot?
17:13:22 [fantasai]
fantasai: I think we'll aim to get that done by the end of next week, but we'll see what issues we run into
17:15:43 [fantasai]
fantasai: I'll be woring with Arron all of next week on the test suite.
17:15:49 [fantasai]
peterl: Do you need help with anything?
17:16:27 [Bert]
s/woring/working/
17:16:27 [fantasai]
fantasai: If we just get the filenames to not conflict, we can use the existing build scripts to throw something up on w3.org
17:17:06 [fantasai]
fantasai: Not ideal, because we can't make .e.g a zipped copy for use on windows (which can't handle that many files in one directory)
17:17:16 [fantasai]
fantasai: Hopefully we get the build scripts fixed up for the beta next month
17:17:32 [ChrisL]
q+ to wonder if adding the xhtml mime type would be easy
17:17:38 [fantasai]
fantasai: Probably some help in reviewing the test suite for missing tests once the index is up..
17:18:14 [ChrisL]
http://test.csswg.org/svn/contributors/microsoft/submitted/Chapter_15/font-001.xht
17:18:16 [fantasai]
http://test.csswg.org/source/approved/css2.1/src/generate/content-counter-002.xht
17:19:17 [fantasai]
Just change 'svn' to 'source' in the url
17:20:12 [fantasai]
Peter: Since this is our top priority, we'll be checking on this every week
17:20:32 [fantasai]
Topic: Feedback on Backgrounds and Borders
17:20:54 [fantasai]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Jan/0109.html
17:20:57 [dbaron]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Jan/0112.html
17:21:31 [fantasai]
fantasai: I suggest adopting Tab's response as official
17:21:39 [fantasai]
Brad: does that include the part about media queries?
17:21:48 [fantasai]
fantasai: Yes. We agreed to do that when dsinger brought it up at the F2F
17:22:04 [fantasai]
Everyone agrees with Tab's response
17:22:09 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: Tab's response is official
17:22:40 [fantasai]
ACTION Daniel Respond that Tab's response is the official WG position
17:22:40 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-201 - Respond that Tab's response is the official WG position [on Daniel Glazman - due 2010-01-20].
17:22:59 [fantasai]
Topic: Absolute Length Units
17:23:05 [fantasai]
(pt vs. px)
17:23:23 [fantasai]
dbaron: Do we have good data on what existing browsers are doing?
17:23:33 [fantasai]
Tab: At least for pt, yes.
17:24:31 [fantasai]
fantasai: Can we get a writeup on the thread? All proposals, with pros and cons, summary of what seems to be the general consensus, who's dissenting and why, what raw data we have, etc.
17:24:51 [fantasai]
ACTION Tab: write up pt px thread
17:24:51 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-202 - Write up pt px thread [on Tab Atkins Jr. - due 2010-01-20].
17:26:11 [fantasai]
Peter: Print drivers can scale and zoom as well. You don't want to redefine units there
17:26:26 [fantasai]
Peter: That scaling happens way after layout is done.
17:26:54 [fantasai]
Peter: I'm objecting to redefining pt so that it is no longer 1/72 of an inch
17:27:13 [fantasai]
Tab: In one of the browsers it's scaled to 4/3px rather than 1/72 in
17:27:33 [fantasai]
Peter: I don't care what defines what in what order, as long as the relationships stay the same
17:27:51 [fantasai]
Peter: We can change the relationship of px to physical units, but not physical units to each other
17:27:56 [fantasai]
Peter: that's just insanity
17:28:27 [fantasai]
...
17:28:35 [fantasai]
Peter: We're talking about the px unit, not a device pixel
17:29:09 [glazou]
+1
17:29:11 [fantasai]
Peter: Allowing the px unit to float and scale and size in relation to the device pixel is what's leading to breakage
17:29:23 [fantasai]
Peter: because device resolutions are dramatically different these days
17:29:37 [fantasai]
Peter: and will continue to change
17:29:42 [ChrisL]
I think the confusion started when Macs often had 72 pixels per inch so 1pc was 1 point. Sometimes people still assert that points and pixels are joined at the hip like that
17:29:57 [fantasai]
Peter: Allowing the px unit to change to try to match a device pixel is what's causing problems
17:30:22 [fantasai]
Bert is really confused now
17:30:40 [fantasai]
s/pc/px/ in Chris's msg
17:31:36 [fantasai]
Tab: Are we saying that CSS px should not be tied to the device pixel in any way?
17:32:01 [fantasai]
Peter: It makes sense in many cases for the UA to round the ratio
17:32:53 [fantasai]
Chris describes the jump from 1px = 1 device pixel to 1px = 2 device pixel
17:33:01 [ChrisL]
they are often rounded to 1:1. Problem is we are approaching the time where the dpi is tweice 96
17:33:03 [fantasai]
Chris and how it creates a disconcerting discontinuity
17:33:47 [fantasai]
dbaron: On mobile devices, the dpi might be twice 96dpi, but people hold them closer so the viewing angle becomes important
17:34:14 [fantasai]
Peter: I think this idea of true inches etc. is also crazy
17:34:45 [fantasai]
...
17:35:00 [fantasai]
Bert: px unit is most useful. It is the only one that is guaranteed to be visible everywhere and sharp
17:35:56 [fantasai]
Peter doesn't like px.
17:36:05 [fantasai]
Peter: Then you have problems with bitmap images
17:36:18 [fantasai]
fantasai: One image pixel is 1px. So it will scale with px
17:37:07 [fantasai]
Tab: And because px rounds to device pixels, it's still sharp
17:37:14 [fantasai]
Peter talks about nextstep
17:37:19 [sylvaing]
..and text is also going sub-pixel...
17:37:34 [fantasai]
Bert: At least on a map, most browsers display pt too small.
17:37:37 [fantasai]
s/map/mac/
17:37:47 [ChrisL]
sylvaing - yes, subpixel positioning is really helping
17:38:19 [fantasai]
Peter: So Tab will post a writeup to www-style. Anyone else have anything?
17:38:31 [fantasai]
Topic: Numeric Precision in CSS Numbers
17:38:55 [fantasai]
Simon: It's not specified how numbers get formatted if there are lots of decimal places
17:39:07 [fantasai]
Simon: Some browsers report that in scientific notation, which doesn't parse back
17:39:13 [ChrisL]
answer is to allow scientific notation
17:39:30 [fantasai]
Simon: I'm looking for how large numbers and numbers with lots of decimal points should be round-tripped.
17:39:42 [dbaron]
I consider the scientific notation seralization that we do to be a bug; I fixed part of it at one point (I forget whether it was the computed style part or the CSSStyleDeclaration part)
17:40:13 [fantasai]
Simon: We don't want to go through text for all our apis
17:40:35 [fantasai]
Tab: Opera doing 2 decimals and WebKit doing 6 is weird
17:41:06 [fantasai]
Simon: Opera seems to be using 16 bits to store the number
17:41:17 [dbaron]
X11 is still limited to 16-bit numbers in many cases
17:41:27 [dbaron]
but that tends not to be a real problem
17:41:31 [fantasai]
Tab doesn't understand why it's not 32bits
17:41:49 [fantasai]
Peter: So did we want to allow scientific notation?
17:42:03 [fantasai]
Chris: SVGWG allows scientific notation; we asked for it from CSS awhile ago, but the answer was no
17:42:41 [fantasai]
Simon: It's important for transforms, you get numbers very close to zero but not quite
17:42:58 [fantasai]
Bert: The precision is another question -- it's about internal representation
17:43:03 [fantasai]
Peter: Several questions
17:43:12 [fantasai]
Peter: Should we define a minimum precision?
17:43:20 [fantasai]
Peter: Should we allow scientific notation?
17:43:58 [fantasai]
Bert: Precision is defined in bits, not in decimals
17:44:18 [fantasai]
fantasai: I don't think there should be a limit on what we allow, but having a minimum makes sense
17:44:38 [fantasai]
Peter: require the browser to be able to round-trip
17:44:44 [arronei]
I really like haveing a minimum definition so I can test interoperability.
17:44:56 [fantasai]
dbaron: I think anything you can produce as output you should accept as input
17:45:09 [fantasai]
dbaron: Things you take as input, you sometimes transform the first time you output them
17:45:37 [fantasai]
dbaron: But anything you produce as output, you should accept as input that generates the same output
17:46:12 [dbaron]
(the second one is saying that parse+serialize is idempotent)
17:46:22 [fantasai]
Bert: If you're adding up numbers, sometimes the order you add them in will affect things
17:46:43 [fantasai]
...
17:47:09 [fantasai]
glazou: Since the browsers sometiems output scientific notation, does that mean we accept scientific notation?
17:47:15 [fantasai]
dbaron: That's a bug
17:47:53 [fantasai]
Chris: Bert, would there be a problem adding scientific notation to CSS?
17:48:20 [fantasai]
Bert: The core grammar would have to change. We try not to change that, because it's a part of the spec we say we will not change
17:48:28 [dbaron]
you can serialize as 0.00000000275465
17:48:29 [fantasai]
Bert: Why do we need them now?
17:49:09 [fantasai]
Simon: transitions and transforms
17:49:43 [fantasai]
dbaron: Anything that you can serialize anything in decimal that you can in scientific notation
17:49:55 [fantasai]
dbaron: You just wind up with a lot of zeros that are not necessarily significant
17:50:14 [fantasai]
Chris: Accepting scientific notation would allow better HTML-SVG-CSS integration
17:50:35 [fantasai]
glazou: We could investigate how to follow dbaron's rules
17:50:49 [fantasai]
glazou: And investigate what it would take to accept scientific notation
17:50:58 [bradk]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_notation#Normalized_notation
17:50:58 [fantasai]
?: It was rejected before
17:51:01 [bradk]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_notation#Normalized_notation
17:51:05 [fantasai]
Chris: Maybe because there wasn't a good argument for it
17:51:16 [fantasai]
glazou: It was rejected before for lack of use case iirc
17:51:16 [bradk]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_notation#E_notation
17:51:56 [fantasai]
...
17:52:12 [fantasai]
Simon: Let's say you apply a transform for rotating 89deg
17:52:31 [fantasai]
Simon: You get a matrix back that has some very small numbers
17:52:44 [fantasai]
Simon: Say you want to print that out as a string
17:53:00 [fantasai]
Sylvain: You want to take that matrix and write it somewhere else
17:53:08 [fantasai]
Bert: Why don't you just write out all the zeroes?
17:53:26 [fantasai]
Simon: You'd get a long string of zeroes
17:54:39 [fantasai]
glazou: Scientific notation wouldn't help in cases where you have e.g. 1.0000something
17:55:15 [fantasai]
RESOVLED: Adopt dbaron's rules.
17:55:30 [dbaron]
s/RESOVLED/RESOLVED/
17:55:41 [fantasai]
ACTION Simon: Write up a proposal for handling dbaron's rules
17:55:41 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-203 - Write up a proposal for handling dbaron's rules [on Simon Fraser - due 2010-01-20].
17:56:31 [ChrisL]
e.g. 2.007e6
17:57:27 [fantasai]
Topic: Style Attribute Grammar
17:57:29 [fantasai]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Jan/0152.html
17:58:58 [fantasai]
glazou: It doesn't change anything
17:59:14 [fantasai]
dbaron: Yes, but grammar patterns tend to be more reusable if they follow the same whitespace patterns
17:59:30 [fantasai]
dbaron: I think ours tend to put whitespace at the end only
17:59:31 [dbaron]
but probably doesn't matter since it's not a complicated production
18:00:08 [fantasai]
ACTION Bert: Review this issue
18:00:09 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-204 - Review this issue [on Bert Bos - due 2010-01-20].
18:00:39 [fantasai]
glazou: Whatever the result, I think we should publish asap
18:01:38 [fantasai]
fantasai: I'm ok with whatever Bert decides on the grammar, and to just decide to publish whatever he decides
18:01:46 [fantasai]
fantasai: The next step is LCWD
18:01:48 [Zakim]
-ChrisL
18:01:52 [Zakim]
-smfr
18:01:54 [Zakim]
-[Mozilla]
18:01:54 [Zakim]
-sylvaing
18:01:55 [Zakim]
-dethbakin
18:01:56 [Zakim]
-CesarAcebal
18:02:06 [Zakim]
-TabAtkins
18:02:23 [Zakim]
-bradk
18:02:41 [TabAtkins]
Just in case anyone missed it earlier, if anyone in the SF area is available for dinner tomorrow evening, I'll be in the area with nothing to do.
18:03:15 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: Publish css-style-attr as LCWD, with whatever Bert decides on the grammar issue. 3 weeks LC period
18:03:25 [Zakim]
-glazou
18:03:27 [Zakim]
-plinss
18:03:29 [Zakim]
-fantasai
18:03:33 [Zakim]
-Bert
18:03:35 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
18:03:36 [Zakim]
Attendees were smfr, plinss, dethbakin, TabAtkins, bradk, David_Baron, fantasai, glazou, Bert, sylvaing, CesarAcebal, ChrisL
18:21:45 [CesarAcebal]
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19:41:18 [dbaron]
fantasai, did you contribute the tests in http://fantasai.inkedblade.net/style/specs/css2.1/tests/min-max-replaced to the test suite already?
21:27:16 [Lachy]
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21:28:38 [fantasai]
dbaron: hixie put them in already, so yes
22:29:00 [dbaron]
Hmmm. I guess I can't contribute all the list bullet positioning tests I wrote since CSS2.1 makes the position of the list bullet explicitly undefined.
22:47:21 [fantasai]
how about you dump them in a css3-lists directory? ;)
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