17:01:17 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #RDB2RDF
17:01:17 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/01/12-RDB2RDF-irc
17:01:19 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
17:01:19 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #RDB2RDF
17:01:21 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 7322733
17:01:21 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM scheduled to start now
17:01:22 <trackbot> Meeting: RDB2RDF Working Group Teleconference
17:01:22 <trackbot> Date: 12 January 2010
17:01:46 <Souri> zakim, who is on the phone?
17:01:46 <Zakim> SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM has not yet started, Souri
17:01:48 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Ahmed, Ashok, Seema, Souri, angela_UNITN, whalb, jsequeda, hhalpin, MacTed, mhausenblas, iv_an_ru, trackbot, ericP
17:02:24 <mhausenblas> Chair: Ahmed
17:02:58 <nunolopes> nunolopes has joined #RDB2RDF
17:02:59 <mhausenblas> scribenick: Souri 
17:03:24 <BenSzekely> BenSzekely has joined #RDB2RDF
17:03:24 <Souri> ahmed: happy new year to everybody
17:03:32 <mhausenblas> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdb2rdf-wg/2010Jan/0007.html
17:03:44 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes 
17:03:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/01/12-RDB2RDF-minutes.html mhausenblas
17:03:53 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, make logs public
17:03:59 <nunolopes> Zakim, nunolopes is with mhausenblas
17:03:59 <Zakim> sorry, nunolopes, I do not recognize a party named 'mhausenblas'
17:04:06 <Souri> ahmed: regrets from Marcelo
17:04:19 <Souri> angela: yes
17:04:19 <soeren> soeren has joined #RDB2RDF
17:04:26 <Souri> wolfgang: yes
17:05:48 <Souri> zakim, who is on the phone?
17:05:48 <Zakim> SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM has not yet started, Souri
17:05:49 <Zakim> On IRC I see soeren, BenSzekely, nunolopes, Zakim, RRSAgent, Ahmed, Ashok, Seema, Souri, angela_UNITN, whalb, jsequeda, hhalpin, MacTed, mhausenblas, iv_an_ru, trackbot, ericP
17:06:08 <Souri> mike: minutes approval
17:06:42 <mhausenblas> http://www.w3.org/2009/12/15-RDB2RDF-minutes.html
17:07:01 <mhausenblas> PROPOSAL: Accept the minutes of the 15 December 2009 telecon
17:07:04 <angela_UNITN> +1
17:07:14 <mhausenblas> RESOLUTION: Accept the minutes of the 15 December 2009 telecon
17:07:24 <mhausenblas> actions?
17:07:38 <Souri> Juan?
17:08:08 <mhausenblas> issues?
17:08:11 <Souri> when you speak, please first identify yourself to help me scribe
17:08:22 <mhausenblas> trackbot, issues?
17:08:22 <trackbot> Sorry, mhausenblas, I don't understand 'trackbot, issues?'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
17:08:43 <jsequeda> yes, it was me. When i find out more about the sparql to sql patent from microsoft, I`ll let everybody know
17:08:49 <Souri> ahmed: Oracle SQL-based approach, view definition specified in SQL
17:09:17 <Souri> ahmed: The other approach was to use new RDF vocabulary to specify the views
17:09:36 <MacTed> Zakim, this is 7322733
17:09:36 <Zakim> ok, MacTed; that matches SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM
17:09:37 <Souri> ahmed: how to proceed from here
17:09:47 <MacTed> zakim, who's here?
17:09:47 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P11, angela_UNITN, +043316876aaaa, Seema, Souri, Ashok_Malhotra, ??P22, ??P5, mhausenblas, ??P7, ??P26, +49.322.222.0.aabb, OpenLink_Software
17:09:51 <Zakim> On IRC I see soeren, BenSzekely, nunolopes, Zakim, RRSAgent, Ahmed, Ashok, Seema, Souri, angela_UNITN, whalb, jsequeda, hhalpin, MacTed, mhausenblas, iv_an_ru, trackbot, ericP
17:09:59 <Souri> ahmed: requiring lot of changes in DB cannot be a requirement
17:10:03 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
17:10:03 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
17:10:05 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
17:10:05 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
17:10:06 <mhausenblas> ISSUES?
17:10:08 <whalb> zakim, aaaa is me
17:10:08 <Zakim> +whalb; got it
17:10:15 <Souri> ahmed: but you get a lot of perf out of that
17:10:41 <Souri> ahmed: look deeper to find some support at the client level or config level
17:10:53 <nunolopes> Zakim, nunolopes is with mhausenblas
17:10:53 <Zakim> +nunolopes; got it
17:11:04 <Souri> ahmed: what will the WG do from now on ...
17:11:22 <Souri> ahmed: Linked Data area will be led by Michael 
17:11:32 <hhalpin> q+ Re deadlines
17:11:40 <Souri> ahmed: waiting for Michael to send more on that
17:11:54 <Souri> ahmed: start debating ...
17:11:56 <mhausenblas> ack hhalpin 
17:11:56 <Zakim> hhalpin, you wanted to deadlines
17:12:02 <Ashok> q+
17:12:48 <mhausenblas> Michael: notes that http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/wiki/Use_Cases_and_Requirements exists
17:12:54 <MacTed> (bug report for Zakim / trackbot maintainers -- Zakim doesn't make connection between "this will be" and "this is" and doesn't accept "this is" before start-time ... so trackbot should use "this is" and must say so *after* the session start-time ... or some other fix which accomplishes same)
17:12:58 <Souri> Harry: tight timeframe, just 2 yrs, some proposal should be ready by April
17:13:13 <Souri> Michael: agree with Harry
17:13:27 <hhalpin> Again, should be no problem extending things for a few months, but the main issue is "how to do it"
17:13:32 <Souri> ahmed: use case needs to  come from discussion
17:13:34 <hhalpin> I am a bit neutral on this one...
17:13:52 <hhalpin> hhalpin has changed the topic to: Discussion 
17:13:54 <soeren> q+
17:13:57 <Souri> ahmed: how to go about creating the user cases?
17:14:15 <Souri> ashok: SQL-based approach is not Oracle-specific
17:14:29 <mhausenblas> queue?
17:14:32 <hhalpin> ACTION: hhalpin to update web-page and schedule
17:14:32 <trackbot> Created ACTION-18 - Update web-page and schedule [on Harry Halpin - due 2010-01-19].
17:14:38 <mhausenblas> ack Ashok 
17:14:39 <Souri> ashok: there are other approaches that are very similar: Triplify, UltraWrap
17:14:43 <mhausenblas> actions?
17:15:01 <mhausenblas> issues?
17:15:21 <Souri> ashok: Gather all these groups (Triplify, Oracle, Ultrawrap) together to write a document
17:16:12 <Souri> orri: agree, SQL-based style could be the most aligned to DB
17:16:48 <Souri> orri: challenge on impl side would be to take the sparql and rewrite it into sql 
17:17:08 <Souri> ... worried about the efficiency of the translation
17:17:27 <Souri> ashok: is sparql-to-sql translation relevant for this WG?
17:17:31 <mhausenblas> queue?
17:17:40 <mhausenblas> ack soeren 
17:17:59 <Souri> soren: strongly support those parts that are not covered by database systems
17:18:16 <Souri> ... how sparql query can access the data stored in the database tables
17:18:22 <hhalpin> We should take the most minimal starting point, but one that can extended. Perhaps the mapping first from tables and views, and then if we have time, then see what we can do re SPARQL->SQL mapping.
17:18:41 <Souri> ... one page syntactic description to access the base tables
17:18:46 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:18:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/01/12-RDB2RDF-minutes.html mhausenblas
17:19:04 <Souri> ... would like to see how the translation from sparql to sql would work
17:19:35 <Souri> ... rdbms to rdf on one hand, and sparql query to sql query on the other hand
17:19:54 <Souri> orri: on-the-fly mapping from sparql to sql is more complex
17:20:31 <hhalpin> q+ On doing two -distinct steps, first mapping then possibly SPARQL to SQL
17:20:46 <hhalpin> trackbot, ISSUE-2
17:20:46 <trackbot> Sorry, hhalpin, I don't understand 'trackbot, ISSUE-2'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
17:20:56 <hhalpin> trackbot, ISSUE-2?
17:20:56 <trackbot> Sorry, hhalpin, I don't understand 'trackbot, ISSUE-2?'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
17:20:59 <angela_UNITN> (then sparql endpoints...)
17:21:00 <hhalpin> ISSUE-2?
17:21:00 <trackbot> ISSUE-2 -- R2RML serializations -- OPEN
17:21:00 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/track/issues/2
17:21:06 <Souri> ahmed: mapping rel data to RDF is simpler, but in our env we need on-demand kind of support
17:21:07 <MacTed> Zakim, who's noisy?
17:21:18 <Zakim> MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Ashok_Malhotra (4%)
17:21:20 <Souri> if we don't do on-demand, we have twice the cost
17:21:35 <Souri> orri: if we don't do on-demand, we have twice the cost
17:21:54 <jsequeda> q+ I see two types of on demand RDB2RDF: when the user has write access to the DB and they can create a view (oracle, triplify, ultrawrap) OR they do not have write access and will do something like D2R
17:23:14 <Ashok> Souri:  We are thinking of looking at RDB data as RDF data.  Data need not be materialized
17:23:53 <Ashok> ... most impt part is the mapping part so we can help user with writing the SQPARQL query
17:24:08 <hhalpin> Zakim, q?
17:24:08 <Zakim> I see hhalpin on the speaker queue
17:24:11 <mhausenblas> queue?
17:24:18 <jsequeda> q+
17:24:20 <mhausenblas> ack hhalpin
17:24:20 <Zakim> hhalpin, you wanted to doing two -distinct steps, first mapping then possibly SPARQL to SQL
17:24:41 <Souri> Harry: I am hearing consensus from the group to do the mapping first (R2ML language)
17:25:10 <hhalpin> The mapping is declarative...
17:25:19 <Souri> ... then investigate the SPARQL to SQL translation approach.
17:25:27 <hhalpin> I agree that ETL isn't that used.
17:25:32 <Souri> orri: the mapping is most important
17:25:49 <mhausenblas> ack jsequeda 
17:26:10 <Souri> Juan: liked what ahmed said at the beginning about writing a document
17:26:48 <hhalpin> +1 on writing proposal for each "family" of approaches
17:27:11 <Souri> ... would like to see document regarding how to map from RDB to RDF using the two approaches -- SQL-based view def and RDF vocab (such as D2R) based view def
17:28:18 <hhalpin> Souri: Writing a SQL view is one approach, to go with SQL language to specify a query as a view definition, and then use that with some declarative mapping
17:28:36 <hhalpin> Souri: using that to define the mapping, the advantage of that is that the relational data is completely specifiable.
17:29:05 <hhalpin> Souri: the vocabulary-based approach is to add new words with RDF, express the view, but using the RDF as the underlying way to view the relational data.
17:29:17 <mhausenblas> queue
17:29:19 <mhausenblas> queue?
17:29:25 <hhalpin> Souri: So the D2RQ based approach has been popular, but not sure about coverage
17:30:37 <Souri> orri: having considered both SQL and RDF vocab sides, even with the latter with some annotations it is possible to translate
17:30:44 <hhalpin> q+ The syntax in the charter for the mapping should be XML
17:30:53 <hhalpin> q+ The syntax in the charter for the mapping 
17:31:41 <hhalpin> q+ syntax
17:32:07 <mhausenblas> ack hhalpin
17:32:32 <Souri> soren: the query that defines the view does not need to be standardized, its only the mapping of view cols, names to RDF terms
17:32:37 <Souri> souri: fully agree
17:33:20 <Souri> harry: the mapping could be specified as XML
17:33:25 <hhalpin> so we can outline how to do the SQL transformation, then we can do the mapping via the XML file.
17:33:39 <hhalpin> s/SQL transformation/SQL to get view
17:33:58 <Souri> ahmed: do you kind of agree with Souri's point?
17:34:03 <soeren> +1
17:34:05 <angela_UNITN> +1
17:34:08 <Souri> Michael: sounds ok to me
17:34:09 <hhalpin> I mean, the real question would be could the XML file also be used for more D2RQ ETL sort of things
17:34:33 <Souri> ashok: looks fine, the only question is we are speaking of two approaches, right?
17:35:11 <hhalpin> I would agree, but not sure of the details, as I haven't implemented any of this myself yet.
17:35:14 <Souri> ... there does not look like any conflict.
17:35:19 <Souri> ahmed: summarize
17:35:44 <Souri> ashok: rel to rdf vs. sparql-to-sql?
17:36:41 <hhalpin> q+
17:36:58 <Souri> ahmed: converging into sql-based views and then mapping the names (view, view-col, constraint) to RDF terms
17:37:02 <mhausenblas> ack hhalpin 
17:37:56 <hhalpin> so what I am saying is that it's unclear if we need the view, although that's obviously the sensible way to do this!
17:38:56 <Souri> harry: can we just use XML to do the mapping?
17:39:21 <hhalpin> and debate over the listserv as well :)
17:39:23 <Souri> Michael: propose give one week to the WG members to think about it
17:39:27 <hhalpin> We can create a W3C WBS poll
17:39:36 <Souri> ... may be a proposal to consider
17:39:39 <hhalpin> but I'd like a bit more clarity about what options to put in the poll
17:39:42 <hhalpin> or the exact questions
17:39:48 <hhalpin> before I volunteer to make the poll.
17:39:55 <Souri> Harry: a poll would make a lot of sense
17:40:56 <Souri> Michael: the wording needs to be created for a poll. Souri?
17:41:02 <Souri> souri: I'll do it.
17:41:27 <Souri> Michael: draft it on the wiki? or whichever is better ...
17:41:46 <Souri> how do I do action?
17:42:02 <mhausenblas> ACTION: Souri to draft a wording for the basic direction the WG takes
17:42:02 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Souri
17:42:02 <Zakim> - +49.322.222.0.aabb
17:42:27 <mhausenblas> ACTION: hhalpin to put Souri's draft into a WBS poll and notify the WG
17:42:27 <trackbot> Created ACTION-19 - Put Souri's draft into a WBS poll and notify the WG [on Harry Halpin - due 2010-01-19].
17:42:49 <Souri> soren: eric ...?
17:42:54 <hhalpin> EricP is definitely a SPARQL->SQL translation 
17:43:04 <soeren> I can not hear anything anymore :-(
17:43:15 <Souri> ashok: do not get very hung up on the XML requirement
17:43:50 <hhalpin> no worries ashok, I just want a public draft, I am happy to XML-ize whatever language people use.
17:44:11 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
17:44:12 <Souri> $souri to do create a proposal text about the sql-based approach that the WG may want to vote on
17:44:44 <mhausenblas> actions?
17:45:23 <Souri> ahmed: XML is not a critical issue today, agree with ashok
17:45:47 <mhausenblas> Michael: I agree with Ashok
17:45:56 <Souri> ahmed: any situation where creating a view is not possible
17:46:33 <Souri> orri: in some cases in practice it is not obvious, but can be done
17:47:24 <Souri> ahmed: like that comment, mapping language is another level, Does the vendor need to know the exact RDF to RDF mapping?
17:47:30 <Souri> orri: no
17:47:40 <Souri> ahmed: so it can be done either way
17:47:51 <Souri> ahmed: vendor specific features
17:48:10 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:48:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/01/12-RDB2RDF-minutes.html mhausenblas
17:48:14 <Souri> ... any thoughts? at what level primarily the support should be present?
17:48:38 <Souri> Soren: you can use vendor-specific extensions may be used to define the view
17:49:09 <Souri> ahmed: some vendors have sql extensions beyond standard, we should allow
17:49:38 <Souri> soren: Triplify solves this problem by allowing users to define output processing functions
17:50:09 <Souri> ... functions can for example translate html to text and so on
17:50:33 <Souri> orri: the functions should be reversible?
17:50:47 <Souri> soren: why reversible?
17:53:27 <hhalpin> Works for me!
17:53:57 <Souri> souri: reversible is good for performance, but not essential
17:54:10 <hhalpin> I would like to return to some draft proposals...
17:54:24 <hhalpin> It can be changed, and can be very very drafty, that's OK.
17:54:32 <Souri> ahmed: send the text to the WG via email and then we refine it and finally post it for a poll
17:54:43 <Souri> ahmed: timeframe for first draft
17:54:53 <Souri> ashok: first draft by April
17:55:05 <hhalpin> q+
17:55:07 <Souri> ahmed: when would it be posted? May or June?
17:55:11 <hhalpin> q- syntax
17:56:00 <Souri> ashok: depends upon the kind of agreement or disagreement on the first draft. Estimate for posting about 3 months after the first draft is created.
17:56:12 <Souri> orri: do we need a requirement doc?
17:56:20 <Souri> ashok: highly recommended
17:56:51 <Souri> Harry: clarifying ... first draft need not be a complete agreement, more like a heartbeat check
17:57:17 <Souri> ... if we put together a proposal in three months and keep debating that is ok
17:57:39 <Souri> ... requirement document will be a W3C Note
17:57:55 <angela_UNITN> +q
17:58:07 <Souri> ... Use Case doc will need to be created
17:58:25 <hhalpin> q- hhalpin
17:58:48 <hhalpin> I think the use-cases should be available as soon as possible, but the XG report has some use-cases already in it.
17:59:31 <Souri> ... ahmed: can we write the proposal before we have a Use Case document
17:59:44 <Souri> ashok: we can do in parallel
18:00:03 <hhalpin> +1 ahmed
18:00:18 <Souri> ahmed: a set of people will start writing the proposal and share with the group ...
18:00:24 <mhausenblas> Michael: I take care of editing the UC
18:00:49 <hhalpin> Souri: will agree to help draft a proposal.
18:00:57 <mhausenblas> Michael: I will collect stuff from http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/wiki/Use_Cases_and_Requirements
18:00:57 <angela_UNITN> i can write a UC ...i have some questions about that maybe i can discuss with the future UC group
18:01:02 <hhalpin> We need at least 2, ideally 3 editors ASAP.
18:01:14 <Souri> ... who will volunteer? let us decide as a group
18:01:26 <hhalpin> Could we do the write-up on the wiki?
18:01:33 <mhausenblas> yes, hhalpin 
18:01:35 <Zakim> -MacTed
18:01:56 <Souri> ahmed: share with the group as it is written to get feedbacks from the group
18:02:03 <hhalpin> I can help with formatting, no problem.
18:02:07 <Souri> ashok: editing etc.
18:02:18 <hhalpin> In general, we need 2-3 editors.
18:02:44 <Souri> ahmed: let us decide on the participants as a group
18:03:20 <Souri> harry: 2-3 editors, comments from everybody, address the comments, and so on
18:03:41 <Souri> Michael: for the recommendation track need to track and address comments
18:04:06 <Souri> Michael: at least 2-3 editors
18:04:36 <Souri> Michael: ahmed could ask for volunteers ...
18:04:58 <mhausenblas> Topic: AOB
18:05:00 <Souri> Michael: send out email to the group asking for volunteers
18:05:44 <Souri> Michael: next time Mike will chair and send Linked Data related stuff
18:05:55 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
18:05:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/01/12-RDB2RDF-minutes.html mhausenblas
18:05:57 <Zakim> -??P5
18:05:58 <Zakim> -angela_UNITN
18:05:58 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
18:05:59 <Zakim> -??P7
18:05:59 <Zakim> -Souri
18:06:00 <Zakim> -whalb
18:06:00 <Zakim> -Seema
18:06:02 <Zakim> -mhausenblas
18:06:03 <Zakim> -Ashok_Malhotra
18:06:05 <Zakim> -??P11
18:06:25 <mhausenblas> [adjourned]
18:06:25 <Zakim> -??P26
18:06:34 <mhausenblas> Zakim, list attendees
18:06:34 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been angela_UNITN, +043316876aaaa, Seema, Souri, Ashok_Malhotra, mhausenblas, +49.322.222.0.aabb, MacTed, whalb, nunolopes, [IPcaller]
18:06:53 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
18:06:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/01/12-RDB2RDF-minutes.html mhausenblas
18:07:23 <mhausenblas> Zakim, bye
18:07:23 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were angela_UNITN, +043316876aaaa, Seema, Souri, Ashok_Malhotra, mhausenblas, +49.322.222.0.aabb, MacTed, whalb, nunolopes, [IPcaller]
18:07:23 <Zakim> Zakim has left #rdb2rdf
18:07:37 <mhausenblas> actions?
18:08:02 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, bye
18:08:02 <RRSAgent> I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2010/01/12-RDB2RDF-actions.rdf :
18:08:02 <RRSAgent> ACTION: hhalpin to update web-page and schedule [1]
18:08:02 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/01/12-RDB2RDF-irc#T17-14-32
18:08:02 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Souri to draft a wording for the basic direction the WG takes [2]
18:08:02 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/01/12-RDB2RDF-irc#T17-42-02
18:08:02 <RRSAgent> ACTION: hhalpin to put Souri's draft into a WBS poll and notify the WG [3]
18:08:02 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/01/12-RDB2RDF-irc#T17-42-27