IRC log of dap on 2010-01-06

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:44:13 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #dap
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logging to
14:44:15 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
14:44:15 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #dap
14:44:17 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be DAP
14:44:17 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see UW_DAP()10:00AM scheduled to start in 16 minutes
14:44:18 [trackbot]
Meeting: Device APIs and Policy Working Group Teleconference
14:44:18 [trackbot]
Date: 06 January 2010
14:44:36 [fjh]
Chair: Robin_Berjon, Frederick_Hirsch
14:44:44 [fjh]
Present: Robin_Berjon, Frederick_Hirsch
14:45:26 [fjh]
14:47:48 [cardona507]
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14:48:46 [tlr]
Present+ ThomasRoessler
14:48:58 [Dzung_Tran]
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14:49:08 [Dzung_Tran]
Present+ Dzung_Tran
14:49:47 [wonsuk]
Present+ Wonsuk_Lee
14:51:43 [darobin]
Present+ Robin_Berjon
14:52:17 [fjh]
Regrets: Anssi Kostiainen, Marco Marengo
14:53:35 [paddy]
Present+ Paddy_Byers
14:54:10 [paddy]
fjh, sorry but my internet connection is going up and down all the time
14:54:22 [paddy]
I will do it next time if it's ok
14:54:48 [paddy]
snowbound, unable to reach office and working from home :)
14:55:41 [fjh]
action: fjh fix Seoul time in agenda to be 24:00
14:55:41 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-78 - Fix Seoul time in agenda to be 24:00 [on Frederick Hirsch - due 2010-01-13].
14:56:22 [paddy]
similarly, agenda says 1400 UTC, I think it is 1500 UTC
14:57:38 [Zakim]
UW_DAP()10:00AM has now started
14:57:45 [Zakim]
14:57:55 [fjh]
zakim, [IPcaller] is fjh
14:57:55 [Zakim]
+fjh; got it
14:57:58 [Zakim]
+ +0148375aaaa
14:58:35 [Zakim]
14:58:47 [fhirsch]
fhirsch has joined #dap
14:58:58 [cardona507]
I am a member of the HTMLwg - but for some reason I am having trouble submitting the form to join this group - It looks like the form expired on new years - any ideas?
14:58:58 [Zakim]
14:59:07 [paddy]
zakim, +0148375aaaa is paddy
14:59:07 [Zakim]
+paddy; got it
14:59:23 [fjh]
tlr can you pls help cardona507?
14:59:51 [cardona507]
I am a student and "invited expert" - I don't represent a company per se
15:00:01 [paddy]
I can scribe until my connection disappears
15:00:26 [fhirsch]
paddy, perhaps you can scribe next week and we can choose someone else for today
15:00:40 [cardona507]
dom - should I send an email to the chairs? and if so where?
15:00:43 [paddy]
ok, thanks
15:00:49 [darobin]
yeah, we don't want a scribe that drops off
15:01:00 [darobin]
or gets caught in an avalanche
15:01:05 [LauraArribas]
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15:01:14 [Zakim]
15:01:28 [cardona507]
thank dom - have a good meeting everyone
15:01:29 [schittur2]
Present+ Suresh_Chitturi
15:01:29 [LauraArribas]
Present+ Laura_Arribas
15:01:31 [dom]
zakim, code?
15:01:32 [tlr]
zakim, call thomas-781
15:01:36 [Zakim]
the conference code is 3279 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.117.370.6152), dom
15:01:40 [tlr]
zakim, I am thomas
15:01:40 [Zakim]
ok, tlr; the call is being made
15:01:45 [tlr]
zakim, mute me
15:01:46 [Zakim]
15:01:52 [Zakim]
ok, tlr, I now associate you with Thomas
15:01:56 [Zakim]
Thomas should now be muted
15:02:10 [Zakim]
15:02:42 [Zakim]
15:02:42 [cardona507]
cardona507 has left #dap
15:02:58 [Zakim]
15:03:05 [dom]
Present+ Dominique_Hazael-Massieux
15:03:07 [jmorris]
jmorris has joined #dap
15:03:17 [dom]
zakim, mute m
15:03:17 [Zakim]
maxf should now be muted
15:03:28 [cardona507]
cardona507 has joined #dap
15:03:41 [jmorris]
present+ John_Morris
15:03:51 [jmorris]
15:03:54 [fhirsch]
zakim, who is here?
15:03:54 [Zakim]
On the phone I see fjh, paddy, darobin (muted), maxf (muted), wonsuk, Thomas (muted), Suresh, Laura_Arribas, Dom
15:03:57 [Zakim]
On IRC I see cardona507, jmorris, schittur2, LauraArribas, fhirsch, Dzung_Tran, Zakim, RRSAgent, fjh, wonsuk, paddy, arve, maxf, darobin, tlr, ilkka, blassey, shepazu, arg, dom,
15:03:59 [Zakim]
... trackbot
15:04:26 [Zakim]
15:05:03 [darobin]
Scribe: John Morris
15:05:08 [darobin]
ScribeNick: jmorris
15:06:10 [fhirsch]
Paddy will scribe next week
15:06:37 [marcin]
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15:06:46 [jmorris]
minutes from dec. 16
15:06:51 [fhirsch]
15:06:53 [jmorris]
topic: minutes approval
15:07:07 [jmorris]
resolution: minutes from 16-dec approved
15:07:13 [jmorris]
topic: policy
15:07:25 [fhirsch]
ReSpec, added refNote and additionalCopyrightHolders
15:07:43 [jmorris]
15:07:45 [fhirsch]
15:08:02 [fhirsch]
15:08:04 [marcin]
Present+ Marcin_Hanclik
15:08:06 [jmorris]
some discussion of document on list
15:08:13 [fhirsch]
15:08:13 [trackbot]
ACTION-63 -- Laura Arribas to review -- due 2009-11-25 -- CLOSED
15:08:13 [trackbot]
15:08:40 [fhirsch]
TAG response
15:08:43 [tlr]
topic: TAG response
15:08:50 [jmorris]
topic: tag response
15:09:04 [fhirsch]
15:09:08 [darobin]
FH: any objection to sending to the TAG?
15:09:10 [darobin]
15:09:12 [fhirsch]
will send this today, given no comment
15:09:14 [tlr]
15:09:20 [jmorris]
resolution: fhirsch to send tag response
15:09:29 [dom]
15:09:29 [trackbot]
ACTION-69 -- Paddy Byers to provide use cases for the policy requirements document -- due 2009-12-11 -- OPEN
15:09:29 [trackbot]
15:09:41 [dom]
-> Policy Use cases from Paddy
15:10:05 [Zakim]
+ +49.208.4.aabb
15:10:17 [marcin]
Zakim, aabb is marcin
15:10:17 [Zakim]
+marcin; got it
15:10:43 [jmorris]
paddy: working on use cases
15:11:02 [jmorris]
how does this relate to policy requirements documents
15:11:48 [jmorris]
fhirsch: these should go into requirements documents
15:12:09 [dom]
+1 on integrating in requirements for now
15:12:25 [wonsuk]
15:12:26 [darobin]
+1 too
15:12:41 [jmorris]
fhirsch: tlr did work on security in apis
15:12:42 [dom]
[I think it would be useful if the use cases distinguished or highlighted which apply to widget vs open web apps]
15:12:50 [tlr]
[+1 to dom]
15:12:55 [darobin]
[me too!]
15:14:45 [jmorris]
paddy: need detail in use cases and derive requirements from them
15:14:57 [jmorris]
need to determine implied requirements in API
15:15:34 [jmorris]
apis should be capable of being used without presumption of trust
15:15:38 [fhirsch]
paddy suggests possible requirement - apis should be capabable of being mediated by policy but not required to be mediated by policy
15:15:43 [dom]
15:15:46 [dom]
ack me
15:15:48 [fhirsch]
ack dom
15:16:31 [fhirsch]
dom asks whether use cases apply to non-trusted environment
15:17:03 [jmorris]
fhirsch: there will always be non-trusted cases
15:17:24 [jmorris]
paddy: there is not always a presumption of trust with web site
15:17:24 [Zakim]
15:17:34 [arve]
Zakim, P6 is me
15:17:34 [Zakim]
sorry, arve, I do not recognize a party named 'P6'
15:17:36 [dom]
[paddy captured well the questions I had in mind]
15:17:42 [jmorris]
with widget, one goes through an install process with some suggestion of trust
15:17:57 [cardona507]
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15:18:14 [jmorris]
paddy: there is a difference between two environments, but the apis should be capable of both environments
15:18:41 [fhirsch]
15:18:44 [Dzung_Tran]
I think we should strive for both environment
15:18:45 [jmorris]
dom: wg should be able to set ground rules for use of APIs in trusted environments
15:19:05 [fhirsch]
15:20:09 [jmorris]
fhirsch: dom put something on the list on this?
15:20:11 [schittur2]
Robin - i dont think i saw one as well
15:20:21 [dom]
zakim, mute me
15:20:21 [Zakim]
Dom should now be muted
15:21:11 [dom]
ACTION: Paddy to integrate his use cases in policy requirements
15:21:11 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-79 - Integrate his use cases in policy requirements [on Paddy Byers - due 2010-01-13].
15:21:12 [jmorris]
fhirsch: paddy should work to integrate use cases in to requirements doc
15:21:40 [dom]
15:21:40 [trackbot]
ACTION-77 -- John Morris to provide a discussion of requirements for privacy -- due 2010-01-19 -- OPEN
15:21:40 [trackbot]
15:22:34 [jmorris]
topic: api issues
15:22:58 [jmorris]
darobin: lots happening
15:23:28 [paddybyers]
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15:23:56 [jmorris]
[very hard time hearing you robin]
15:24:42 [dom]
[I suggest sending the CfC now, with one week review]
15:24:49 [tlr]
15:24:52 [fhirsch]
+1 to DOM
15:24:55 [jmorris]
darobin: should we wait to discuss CfC today or next week?
15:24:57 [dom]
15:24:57 [tlr]
15:24:57 [schittur2]
15:24:58 [fhirsch]
15:25:03 [jmorris]
we will discuss nextr week
15:25:09 [jmorris]
15:25:33 [tlr]
ack maxf
15:25:33 [dom]
zakim, unmute maxf
15:25:37 [maxf]
15:25:37 [Zakim]
maxf was not muted, dom
15:25:39 [Zakim]
15:25:45 [maxf]
15:26:16 [jmorris]
darobin: not much work on other issues in past couple of weeks
15:26:27 [fhirsch]
15:26:27 [jmorris]
[waiting for maxf to return]
15:26:28 [Zakim]
15:26:37 [jmorris]
15:26:59 [jmorris]
maxf: discussions about what to put into each individual property about which we have info
15:27:14 [jmorris]
questions are unlined by general principles....
15:27:25 [jmorris]
are there use cases for properties we are going to include
15:27:30 [tlr]
q+ to attempt framing the higher-level decision
15:27:34 [jmorris]
decisions need to be made on case by case basis
15:27:41 [fhirsch]
15:27:51 [schittur2]
15:28:02 [jmorris]
questions about how much privacy/security sensitivity with each property
15:28:10 [dom]
zakim, mute robin
15:28:10 [Zakim]
sorry, dom, I do not know which phone connection belongs to robin
15:28:14 [dom]
zakim, mute darobin
15:28:14 [Zakim]
darobin should now be muted
15:29:09 [jmorris]
maxf: need to hear from people who care
15:29:12 [tlr]
ack thomas
15:29:14 [Zakim]
Thomas, you wanted to attempt framing the higher-level decision
15:29:24 [jmorris]
tlr: agree with max's framing
15:29:45 [jmorris]
at least for subset of comments, one approach to ask is this in scope for work we want to do
15:30:08 [jmorris]
broad question: do we want to provide info for run time execution environment
15:30:16 [jmorris]
e.g., cpu, etc.
15:30:42 [jmorris]
other comments: network area - do we believe that network is taken as a given
15:30:57 [jmorris]
or do we need more info on network connectivity
15:31:23 [jmorris]
sub issue - detailed info on network can equal location info....
15:31:27 [tlr]
zakjim, mute me
15:31:29 [tlr]
zakim, mute me
15:31:29 [Zakim]
Thomas should now be muted
15:31:36 [jmorris]
15:32:04 [jmorris]
tend agree that properties like cpu, etc., are attributes that vendors do not want to expose
15:32:20 [jmorris]
in practice, unlikely that apps will adjust based on these properties
15:32:31 [dom]
[I think the uses cases are for applications whose role is actually to deal with these low-level details]
15:32:34 [jmorris]
we should focus on more import things like displays, IO
15:32:37 [jmorris]
15:32:59 [dom]
q+ to propose a framing
15:33:00 [tlr]
dom, right -- the question is whether we assume CPU and network are managed by the runtime, or whether we think we're managing them.
15:33:01 [jmorris]
prefer not to expose cpu, other details
15:33:08 [darobin]
ack dom
15:33:09 [Zakim]
dom, you wanted to propose a framing
15:33:09 [jmorris]
15:33:14 [schittur2]
15:33:19 [jmorris]
dom: thanks maxf for work on this....
15:33:28 [darobin]
indeed, thanks maxf!
15:33:38 [fhirsch]
15:33:53 [jmorris]
good way to frame this this for v1 of spec -- we only focus on general purpose application features
15:33:56 [tlr]
thanks maxf!
15:34:17 [jmorris]
and we not focus on cpu and less general purpose properties
15:34:42 [jmorris]
darobin: this could be a separate spec versus a different version
15:34:54 [jmorris]
darobin: agree with dom's framing
15:35:01 [fhirsch]
15:35:13 [tlr]
15:35:16 [jmorris]
maxf: happy to focus on general purpose application features
15:35:25 [Dzung_Tran]
for completeness don't we want to cover CPU, however I am fine with moving it to later version
15:35:59 [jmorris]
maxf: temperature is hard
15:36:17 [dom]
Regrets+ DavidRogers
15:36:17 [fhirsch]
does this principle mean, not include what is marked as "interna"
15:36:21 [jmorris]
don't know how to simply draft with several thermometers
15:36:26 [fhirsch]
15:36:32 [fhirsch]
15:36:44 [tlr]
I'd drop thermo, battery, cpu, fan.
15:36:51 [wonsuk]
+1 for moving general things to later version.
15:37:06 [jmorris]
darobin: might make sense to have more complex thermal but simpler cpu
15:37:15 [Dzung_Tran]
What is so hard about temperature?
15:37:15 [dom]
[I think something should be kept when attached with a "generic" use case]
15:37:44 [tlr]
I'm fine with keeping external temperature, but would drop internal temperature sensors.
15:37:47 [jmorris]
fhirsch: not sure what "general purpose application features" mean
15:37:49 [Dzung_Tran]
Temperature is extremely important in mobile device
15:37:57 [jmorris]
maxf: I could write proposal on list
15:37:59 [schittur2]
15:38:05 [darobin]
ack fhirsch
15:38:10 [tlr]
Dzung, how about commenting on the phone?
15:38:20 [darobin]
ack schittur2
15:38:26 [darobin]
ack schittur
15:38:30 [jmorris]
action: maxf to write to list of properties to drop or simplify
15:38:31 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-80 - Write to list of properties to drop or simplify [on Max Froumentin - due 2010-01-13].
15:38:51 [jmorris]
s/list of/list on/
15:39:03 [Dzung_Tran]
I can't join today, actually I need to drop right now, sorry
15:39:39 [darobin]
15:39:46 [tlr]
ack thom
15:39:53 [schittur2]
Input/Output, Codec support, Network coverage are fairly common and useful properties to have
15:40:11 [jmorris]
tlr: device management applications are not a generic use case
15:40:12 [dom]
zakim, am I muted?
15:40:12 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, dom.
15:40:14 [fhirsch]
not sure resolution is needed, but ok with me - still will have to make decisions of what it means
15:40:16 [dom]
zakim, who's muted?
15:40:16 [Zakim]
I see no one muted
15:40:22 [tlr]
zakim, mute me
15:40:22 [Zakim]
Thomas should now be muted
15:40:39 [schittur2]
Internal, and sensor related properties are very low-level and not general purpose properties
15:40:55 [dom]
"apps not directly targeted at monitoring the said sensors"
15:41:08 [darobin]
PROPOSED RESOLUTION: use a "generic use case"/"apps not directly targeted at monitoring the said sensors" measurement to decide whether something is to be included in SysInfo or not
15:41:23 [tlr]
good enough
15:41:33 [fhirsch]
15:41:46 [darobin]
MF: sounds good
15:41:52 [dom]
[maybe s/SysInfo/SysInfo v1/]
15:42:11 [tlr]
oh, yes, webapps globally reconfiguring the keyboard! That's fun.
15:42:14 [jmorris]
fhirsch: what about keyboard, camera flash? is that general?
15:42:15 [fhirsch]
15:42:38 [tlr]
15:42:42 [tlr]
ack thomas
15:42:44 [jmorris]
darobin: there is a general use case for knowing keyboard type
15:43:03 [jmorris]
tlr: some settings are set-able
15:43:08 [jmorris]
not all are just read-only
15:43:20 [jmorris]
some will lead to misunderstanding
15:43:59 [paddy]
paddy has joined #dap
15:44:01 [jmorris]
tlr: if this value is useful for more than just itself, it may be "generic"
15:44:22 [jmorris]
tlr: cpu fan value may monitor for itself
15:44:50 [darobin]
RESOLUTION: use a "generic use case"/"apps not directly targeted at monitoring the said sensors" measurement to decide whether something is to be included in SysInfo or not
15:44:55 [fhirsch]
in essence resolution says use case driven material can be included, platform specifics not included
15:45:14 [schittur2]
15:45:28 [tlr]
q+ to ask whether to track the "encrypted" piece as issue
15:45:36 [jmorris]
schittur: on calendar api, did sent out draft use cases and requirements
15:45:55 [jmorris]
looking at intersection of different calendar apis
15:46:07 [jmorris]
will send to whole group next week
15:46:11 [jmorris]
or soon after
15:46:19 [darobin]
ack schittur
15:46:20 [schittur2]
15:46:28 [darobin]
ack tlr
15:46:29 [jmorris]
tlr: 2 questions:
15:46:44 [tlr]
ack thom
15:46:44 [Zakim]
Thomas, you wanted to ask whether to track the "encrypted" piece as issue
15:46:51 [jmorris]
encrypted attribute on network interface
15:47:14 [jmorris]
re net interfaces, some sensor data might permit to infer additional info
15:47:24 [fjh]
link to suresh message on calendar use cases -
15:47:26 [jmorris]
such as net interfaces or location
15:47:49 [jmorris]
darobin: open issues on these points
15:47:55 [jmorris]
tlr: will do so
15:47:55 [fhirsch]
+1 to opening issues
15:48:13 [jmorris]
.... singing ...
15:48:25 [wonsuk]
15:48:27 [Zakim]
15:48:28 [Zakim]
15:48:28 [Zakim]
15:48:29 [jmorris]
closing call...
15:48:29 [Zakim]
15:48:29 [Zakim]
15:48:30 [paddy]
15:48:31 [Zakim]
15:48:31 [Zakim]
15:48:33 [Zakim]
15:48:34 [wonsuk]
wonsuk has left #dap
15:48:36 [Zakim]
15:48:38 [Zakim]
15:48:39 [Zakim]
15:48:40 [fhirsch]
rrsagent, generate minutes
15:48:40 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate fhirsch
15:48:57 [Zakim]
15:48:59 [Zakim]
UW_DAP()10:00AM has ended
15:49:01 [Zakim]
Attendees were fjh, darobin, maxf, paddy, wonsuk, Thomas, Suresh, Laura_Arribas, Dom, jmorris, +49.208.4.aabb, marcin, arve
15:51:43 [dom]
Zakim, bye
15:51:43 [Zakim]
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16:15:16 [darobin]
mmmm, I just remembered that if we publish Contacts, we need to publish Core Device
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