19:53:43 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #ws-ra
19:53:43 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/01/05-ws-ra-irc
19:53:45 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
19:53:45 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #ws-ra
19:53:47 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WSRA
19:53:47 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
19:53:48 <trackbot> Meeting: Web Services Resource Access Working Group Teleconference
19:53:48 <trackbot> Date: 05 January 2010
20:03:21 <Yves> trackbot, start telcon
20:03:24 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
20:03:26 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WSRA
20:03:26 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WS_WSRA()3:30PM scheduled to start in 27 minutes
20:03:27 <trackbot> Meeting: Web Services Resource Access Working Group Teleconference
20:03:27 <trackbot> Date: 05 January 2010
20:21:09 <Katy> Katy has joined #ws-ra
20:23:33 <Katy> april2nd
20:23:47 <Katy> whoops :o)
20:26:50 <li> li has joined #ws-ra
20:27:38 <Zakim> WS_WSRA()3:30PM has now started
20:27:45 <dug> dug has joined #ws-ra
20:27:46 <Zakim> + +984999aaaa
20:27:59 <Zakim> + +0759029aabb
20:28:37 <Zakim> +[IBM]
20:28:52 <dug> zakim, IBM is Dug
20:28:52 <Zakim> +Dug; got it
20:29:21 <Ashok> Ashok has joined #ws-ra
20:29:55 <Bob> Bob has joined #ws-ra
20:30:06 <Zakim> +Ashok_Malhotra
20:30:10 <DaveS> DaveS has joined #ws-ra
20:30:31 <Zakim> +??P18
20:30:41 <dug> zakim, P18 is Bob
20:30:41 <Zakim> sorry, dug, I do not recognize a party named 'P18'
20:31:24 <Zakim> +Tom_Rutt
20:31:29 <Sreed> Sreed has joined #ws-ra
20:31:31 <dug> picts we need picts!
20:31:33 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
20:31:45 <Zakim> +Yves
20:31:45 <Zakim> +li
20:31:56 <Tom_Rutt> Tom_Rutt has joined #ws-ra
20:32:33 <Zakim> +JeffM
20:32:51 <Zakim> + +0207827aacc
20:32:55 <asir> asir has joined #ws-ra
20:33:03 <gpilz> gpilz has joined #ws-ra
20:33:12 <dug> Dec 15:  http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ws-resource-access/2009Dec/0060.html
20:33:30 <Ram> Ram has joined #ws-ra
20:33:35 <Zakim> + +1.571.262.aadd
20:33:54 <Zakim> + +1.408.642.aaee
20:34:19 <Zakim> + +03531803aaff
20:34:20 <dug> bob u on skype ?
20:34:24 <MartinC> MartinC has joined #ws-ra
20:34:46 <Zakim> + +1.408.970.aagg
20:34:53 <Bob> hi
20:35:00 <dug> lo
20:35:05 <fmaciel> fmaciel has joined #ws-ra
20:40:54 <dug> scribe: Dug
20:41:20 <dug> q+
20:41:32 <dug> q-
20:41:38 <dug> Topic: 8176 - new issue
20:42:01 <dug> q+
20:42:21 <gpilz> q+
20:42:33 <Bob> ack dug
20:43:24 <Bob> ack gpi
20:43:33 <dug> Dug discusses the issue and says there is new info: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ws-resource-access/2010Jan/0029.html
20:43:39 <Ram> q+
20:43:43 <dug> Gil: it would be a mistake to not talk about this fault
20:44:23 <dug> ... there is something to clarify
20:44:37 <Bob> ack ram
20:44:51 <dug> Ram: ok with it being accepted as an issue
20:45:12 <dug> ... to Dug's points - he mentions two options
20:45:29 <dug> ... ok with either option
20:46:38 <gpilz> q+
20:46:53 <Bob> ack gpi
20:46:54 <dug> ... transport level faults could be hard to deal with in the spec
20:47:09 <dug> Gil: this is why we specify a particular fault
20:47:19 <dug> ... only 2 states: active or unknown
20:47:33 <dug> q+
20:47:54 <dug> Bob: any objection to accepting the issue?
20:48:04 <dug> ... no objection - its accepted
20:48:06 <dug> q-
20:49:26 <dug> Bob: discuss now?
20:49:30 <Ram> q+
20:49:33 <dug> Dug: I'd prefer to wait until we have a formal proposal
20:49:41 <dug> Gil: words on paper would be good
20:49:42 <Bob> ack ram
20:50:04 <dug> Ram: I like option 2's direction
20:50:09 <dug> Bob: close today?
20:50:15 <dug> Ram: let's discuss some more
20:50:43 <dug> q+
20:50:51 <Bob> ack dug
20:51:12 <dug> Bob: what do other's think?
20:51:28 <dug> Dug: I like option 2 as well, but I'd like it to apply to ws-transfer too
20:52:42 <dug> Topic: 6463
20:52:44 <dug> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6463
20:52:52 <dug> katy: just got proposal - need time to review
20:53:03 <dug> Topic: 8283
20:53:14 <dug> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8283
20:53:45 <dug> q+
20:54:26 <dug> Gil: we're coming to an agreement on generating vs transmitting fault
20:54:43 <Bob> ack dug
20:55:23 <Ram> q+
20:55:44 <dug> Dug: I think we need a firm list of textual changes - it might go beyond just the list of faults at the end
20:55:56 <Bob> ack ram
20:56:27 <dug> Ram: agree with the general direction
20:57:04 <Zakim> - +984999aaaa
20:57:12 <dug> Bob: does the soap processing model provide any guidance?
20:57:28 <Bob> q?
20:57:55 <dug> Bob: we have a proposal from ram
20:58:06 <Zakim> + +984999aahh
20:59:09 <dug> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ws-resource-access/2009Dec/0063.html
20:59:14 <dug> is that it ram?
20:59:17 <gpilz> to which I replied: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ws-resource-access/2009Dec/0077.html
20:59:35 <gpilz> then Ram replied: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ws-resource-access/2009Dec/0086.html
21:00:17 <gpilz> then I replied: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ws-resource-access/2010Jan/0018.html
21:00:24 <dug> q+
21:00:35 <gpilz> to which Ram replied: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ws-resource-access/2010Jan/0019.html
21:00:46 <Bob> ack dug
21:01:46 <dug> Dug: 8176 might need to be addressed first.  Also, does this apply to other specs too?
21:02:27 <dug> Gil: thought he opened up other issues for other specs - but can't find them
21:03:56 <Zakim> -JeffM
21:04:42 <dug> Transfer has a MAY generate
21:05:15 <dug> 8283 has a dependency on 8176
21:06:09 <dug> Topic: 8165
21:06:12 <dug> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8165
21:06:57 <MartinC> ?
21:07:05 <gpilz> zakim, who is noisy?
21:07:17 <Zakim> gpilz, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: +1.408.642.aaee (9%), Dug (38%), ??P18 (53%)
21:08:55 <Ram> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ws-resource-access/2010Jan/0000.html
21:08:58 <Ram> q+
21:09:05 <dug> Dug: discusses the issue
21:09:13 <Bob> ack ram
21:09:25 <dug> q+
21:09:33 <dug> Ram: if we don't define the mechanism then how do we interop?
21:09:47 <Bob> ack dug
21:10:28 <Ram> q+
21:10:38 <Bob> ack ram
21:10:41 <dug> Dug: the creator the EPR will figure it out
21:11:09 <dug> Ram: we should probably say using ref-params is one way to do it
21:11:11 <dug> q+
21:11:31 <Bob> ack dug
21:11:59 <dug> Dug: I'd be ok with some text that say ref-p's would be ok for this purpose, but didn't we remove text like this already?
21:12:22 <dug> Gil: we used to have text that talked about using ref-p's to do correlation to subscriptions
21:12:30 <Tom_Rutt> q+
21:12:41 <Bob> ack tom
21:12:53 <dug> Tom: we should only add text if we're constraining WSA
21:13:20 <dug> ... is it
21:13:21 <gpilz> this is still in WS-Eventing "Note, subscribers wishing to correlate SubscriptionEnd messages with          the subscription to which they apply MAY wish to add a          distinguishing reference parameter to the EndTo EPR.         "
21:13:21 <dug> ?
21:13:23 <dug> Dug: no
21:13:39 <Ram> q+
21:14:05 <Bob> ack ram
21:14:30 <dug> current text: "however, the full subscription manager EPR (Address and Reference Parameters)
21:14:32 <dug> must be unique for each subscription. "
21:15:19 <dug> Dug: perhaps modify the Note Gil pasted to talk about ref-p's
21:15:28 <dug> Bob: any reason we're embedding a user's guide?
21:15:50 <dug> Gil: all specs seem to want to do it
21:16:13 <dug> Ram: wants something similar to the Note about submgr epr
21:17:13 <dug> Dug: I can take a stab at some non-normative text if people want
21:17:24 <gpilz> In some cases, it is convenient for all EPRs issued by a         single event source to address a single Web service and use a         reference parameter to distinguish among the active         subscriptions.         
21:18:15 <Ram> q+
21:18:26 <Bob> ack ram
21:18:28 <dug> Bob: moves to remove the sentence Gil pasted above
21:18:33 <dug> Dave: 2nds
21:18:50 <dug> Ram: why is this text a problem?
21:19:09 <dug> Bob: it provides no new info for this spec or WSA
21:19:12 <Tom_Rutt> q+
21:19:26 <dug> Ram: there's nothing wrong with providing some guidance
21:19:44 <dug> ... EndTo has this text
21:20:08 <dug> Tom: ref-p's should not be used for identification
21:20:09 <DaveS> q+
21:20:23 <Bob> ack dave
21:20:27 <Katy> q+
21:20:32 <Bob> ack tom
21:20:37 <dug> Dave: its this kind of non-normative advice that is not necessary today - perhaps 3 years ago,but not today
21:20:41 <Bob> ack katy
21:20:47 <dug> Katy: +1 to Dave
21:20:52 <dug> q+
21:21:13 <Ram> q+
21:21:21 <Bob> ack ram
21:21:39 <dug> Ram: lots of way to do subscription correlation 
21:21:59 <Tom_Rutt> q+
21:22:14 <Bob> ack dug
21:22:52 <li> q+
21:23:12 <Bob> ack tom
21:23:25 <dug> Dug: the examples use ref-params and talk about - that should be enough
21:23:27 <Ram> q+
21:23:35 <Bob> ack li
21:23:37 <dug> Tom: +1 to Dug - EPR minters have the choice
21:24:11 <dug> Li: if we remove the text the one EPR could identify two subscriptions - will this be conformant?
21:25:35 <Bob> ack ram
21:25:43 <dug> Dug: conformant yes, but a bug
21:26:02 <dug> note that this particular response uses the x:SubID element as a reference parameter to distinguish this subscription EPR from other subscription EPRs.
21:26:19 <dug> Ram: make the example text explicit
21:26:27 <dug> Dug: does the text I pasted address it?
21:26:50 <dug> Ram: that looks fine
21:27:11 <dug> no objection to remove the text Gil pasted
21:27:12 <dug> q+
21:27:22 <Bob> ack dug
21:27:49 <dug> proposal:
21:27:54 <dug> remove: however, the full subscription manager EPR (Address and Reference Parameters) must be unique for each subscription. "
21:27:56 <dug> and
21:28:13 <dug> In some cases, it is convenient for all EPRs issued by a single event source to address a single Web service and use a reference parameter to distinguish among the active subscriptions. 
21:28:26 <dug> from the SubscibeResponse section
21:29:14 <dug> 1st bit of text is from top of 2.4
21:29:20 <dug> 2nd text is from subscribeResponse
21:29:27 <dug> Dug: moves to remove both
21:29:40 <dug> Bob: any objection?
21:29:55 <dug> Resolution: remove ref-p text as discussed above
21:31:00 <asir> :-)
21:32:01 <dug> Topic: 8183
21:32:03 <dug> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8183
21:33:18 <Ram> Ram's proposal: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ws-resource-access/2010Jan/0025.html
21:34:41 <dug> Ram: discussed his proposal
21:34:48 <dug> q+
21:34:55 <Bob> ack dug
21:36:19 <dug> Dug: don't need the last sentence on the Put any more right?
21:37:10 <dug> existing para:
21:37:12 <dug> Implementations MAY use the fault code wst:InvalidRepresentation if the
21:37:14 <dug> presented representation is invalid for the target resource. The replacement
21:37:16 <dug> representation could be considered to be invalid if it does not conform to the
21:37:17 <dug> schema(s) for the target resource or otherwise violates some cardinality or
21:37:19 <dug> type constraint. If an implementation detects that the presented representation
21:37:20 <dug> is invalid it MUST generate a wst:InvalidRepresentation fault. 
21:37:47 <dug> new para:
21:37:49 <dug> Implementations MUST use the fault code wst:InvalidRepresentation if they detect that the presented representation is invalid for the target resource.  The replacement representation could be considered to be invalid if it does not conform to the schema(s) for the target resource or otherwise violates some cardinality or type constraint.
21:38:34 <Bob> q?
21:40:38 <DaveS> If an implementation that performs schema validation on a presented representation detects that the presented representation is invalid for the target resource MUST use the fault code wst:InvalidRepresentation.
21:41:00 <dug> That's for Put
21:41:30 <dug> And Create
21:41:49 <DaveS> s/MUST/it MUST/
21:44:04 <dug> Proposal: modify 1st sentence of Put text with Dave's text. Remove last sentence of Put para. Remove the WSA text from delete.
21:44:59 <dug> Plus: modify Create text with Dave's text - see Ram's note.
21:45:29 <Ram> If an implementation that performs schema validation on a presented representation detects that the presented representation is invalid for the target resource, then the implementation MUST use the fault code wst:InvalidRepresentation.
21:46:07 <dug> Proposal: modify 1st sentence of Put text, and Create text, with Ram's text above. Remove last sentence of Put para. Remove the WSA text from delete.
21:46:57 <dug> Bob: any objection?
21:47:09 <dug> Resolution: resolved with above proposal
21:47:23 <dug> Topic: 8275
21:47:26 <dug> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8275
21:47:39 <dug> q+
21:48:11 <Bob> ack dug'
21:48:19 <Bob> ack dug
21:49:18 <dug> Dug: might be too big of a requirement - full XPath is expensive and it means everyone must support filtering
21:49:26 <dug> Dug: IBM would like more time 
21:49:35 <li> +1
21:50:05 <dug> Bob: any issue ?
21:50:15 <dug> Bob: anything else to discuss?
21:50:30 <dug> Dave: has everyone sent me their name/country for the f2f?
21:50:53 <dug> Bob: will set up a WBS
21:51:05 <dug> Need: name, company and nationality
21:51:32 <dug> Fred: where are the logistics email?
21:51:36 <dug> s/are/is/
21:51:56 <dug> Bob: will update the web page in the morning
21:52:19 <dug> Bob: any other business?
21:52:43 <dug> Meeting adjourned 
21:52:45 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
21:52:48 <Zakim> - +1.571.262.aadd
21:52:49 <Zakim> - +1.408.970.aagg
21:52:49 <Zakim> - +984999aahh
21:52:49 <Zakim> -li
21:52:50 <Zakim> - +0759029aabb
21:52:50 <Zakim> -Ashok_Malhotra
21:52:53 <Zakim> -Tom_Rutt
21:52:54 <Zakim> -Dug
21:52:56 <Zakim> -Yves
21:52:56 <Zakim> -??P18
21:53:02 <Zakim> - +0207827aacc
21:53:07 <gpilz> gpilz has left #ws-ra
21:53:11 <Zakim> - +03531803aaff
21:53:13 <Bob> rrsagent, generate minutes
21:53:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/01/05-ws-ra-minutes.html Bob
21:55:48 <Zakim> - +1.408.642.aaee
21:55:50 <Zakim> WS_WSRA()3:30PM has ended
21:55:52 <Zakim> Attendees were +984999aaaa, +0759029aabb, Dug, Ashok_Malhotra, Tom_Rutt, [Microsoft], Yves, li, JeffM, +0207827aacc, +1.571.262.aadd, +1.408.642.aaee, +03531803aaff,
21:55:54 <Zakim> ... +1.408.970.aagg, +984999aahh
21:58:22 <dug> what's with all of the cvs updates I just got?
21:59:42 <dug> bob?
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22:29:41 <MartinC> MartinC has left #ws-ra