15:49:17 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rif
15:49:17 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/01/05-rif-irc
15:49:36 <csma> zakim, this will be rif
15:49:36 <Zakim> ok, csma; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 11 minutes
15:50:12 <csma> Meeting: RIF telecon 5 January 10
15:50:22 <csma> Chair: Christian de Sainte Marie
15:50:48 <csma> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2010Jan/0000.html
15:51:41 <csma> csma has changed the topic to: #rif 5 Jan RIF telecon; agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2010Jan/0000.html
15:52:25 <csma> Regrets: LeoraMorgenstern, JosDeBruijn, HassanAitKaci
15:52:44 <csma> RRSagent, make minutes
15:52:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/01/05-rif-minutes.html csma
15:52:53 <csma> RRSagent, make log public
15:53:08 <csma> zakim, clear agenda
15:53:08 <Zakim> agenda cleared
15:53:23 <csma> item+ Admin
15:53:36 <csma> agendum Admin
15:53:49 <csma> agendum+ Admin
15:54:09 <csma> agendum+ Liaisons
15:54:28 <csma> agendum+ Actions review
15:54:46 <csma> agendum+ Public comments
15:55:08 <csma> agendum+ XML syntax of Import
15:55:12 <Harold> Harold has joined #rif
15:55:31 <csma> agendum+ BLD equality/NAU pb
15:55:52 <csma> agendum+ Implementations
15:56:16 <csma> agendum+ Test cases
15:56:28 <csma> agendum+ AOB (next meeting)
16:01:44 <mdean> mdean has joined #rif
16:02:00 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
16:02:07 <Zakim> + +49.715.22.aaaa
16:02:07 <AdrianP> AdrianP has joined #rif
16:02:09 <StellaMitchell> StellaMitchell has joined #rif
16:02:24 <Zakim> +Sandro
16:02:35 <Harold> zakim, +49.715.22.aaaa is me
16:02:35 <Zakim> +Harold; got it
16:02:58 <Zakim> +Stella_Mitchell
16:03:10 <Zakim> + +49.08.aabb
16:03:20 <Zakim> +Mike_Dean
16:03:26 <csma> zakim, aabb is me
16:03:26 <Zakim> +csma; got it
16:03:29 <Zakim> +??P55
16:03:39 <AdrianP> Zakim, ??P55 is me
16:03:39 <Zakim> +AdrianP; got it
16:04:07 <ChrisW> ChrisW has joined #rif
16:04:09 <csma> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:04:09 <Zakim> On the phone I see Harold, Sandro, Stella_Mitchell, csma, Mike_Dean, AdrianP
16:04:16 <ChrisW> running late
16:04:19 <ChrisW> be there in a min
16:05:22 <ChrisWelty> ChrisWelty has joined #rif
16:05:54 <csma> Scribe: Adrian Paschke
16:06:02 <csma> scribenick: AdrianP
16:06:10 <csma> next item
16:06:25 <MichaelKifer> MichaelKifer has joined #rif
16:06:38 <csma> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Dec/att-0010/RIF-Telecon-8-Dec-2009.htm
16:06:54 <csma> PROPOSED: Approve minutes from December 8
16:07:02 <Zakim> +[IBM]
16:07:07 <ChrisWelty> zakim, ibm is temporarily me
16:07:07 <Zakim> +ChrisWelty; got it
16:07:26 <Zakim> +MichaelKifer
16:07:26 <AdrianP> RESOLVED: Approve minutes from December 8
16:07:30 <csma> RESOLVED: approve minutes from December 8
16:07:56 <csma> next item
16:08:26 <Gary_Hallmark> Gary_Hallmark has joined #rif
16:09:13 <Zakim> +Gary
16:09:15 <Zakim> +Sandro.a
16:12:33 <AdrianP> csma: alignment of OMG PRR to W3C RIF
16:13:48 <AdrianP> csma: PRR might reuse the RIF namespace to define conflict resolution
16:15:39 <Harold> Maybe there is a parallel to entailment regimes: conflict resolution strategies could be located at one point for others to reuse.
16:15:55 <csma> next item
16:17:24 <AdrianP> close action-963
16:17:24 <trackbot> ACTION-963 Put BUiltins-String on agenda next time closed
16:17:48 <AdrianP> close action-962
16:17:48 <trackbot> ACTION-962 Contact Stella about regenerating XML for BUiltins_string closed
16:18:30 <Zakim> -Sandro
16:19:20 <sandro> zakim, Sandro.a is Sandro
16:19:20 <Zakim> +Sandro; got it
16:19:57 <AdrianP> close action-957
16:19:57 <trackbot> ACTION-957 Send cd3 closed
16:20:08 <AdrianP> close action-956
16:20:08 <trackbot> ACTION-956 Move hexbinary TC with base64binary closed
16:20:24 <AdrianP> close action-954
16:20:24 <trackbot> ACTION-954 Submit implementation report closed
16:20:49 <AdrianP> close action-953
16:20:49 <trackbot> ACTION-953 Contact josderoo about implementation report and test case submission for eye closed
16:21:45 <AdrianP> close action-950
16:21:45 <trackbot> ACTION-950 Send response cd2 closed
16:21:57 <AdrianP> close action-949
16:21:57 <trackbot> ACTION-949 Send response DM3 closed
16:23:09 <AdrianP> close action-932
16:23:09 <trackbot> ACTION-932 Send the response to W Laun closed
16:27:33 <csma> next items
16:27:42 <csma> next item
16:28:32 <csma> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-comments/2009Nov/0001.html
16:30:17 <AdrianP> csma: we need Jos on the call for this
16:30:42 <csma> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-comments/2009Dec/0006.html
16:31:32 <AdrianP> action csma to update public comment list
16:31:32 <trackbot> Created ACTION-964 - Update public comment list [on Christian de Sainte Marie - due 2010-01-12].
16:31:44 <csma> next item
16:32:21 <Harold> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Dec/0011.html
16:33:23 <AdrianP> Harold: answer to Sandro's question about active links 
16:33:54 <AdrianP> Harold: active IRI which needs to be dereferenced
16:35:28 <AdrianP> Harold: implied goals are useful, in particular for distributed rule bases
16:35:46 <AdrianP> Harold: second part of this mail is about the syntax
16:36:18 <csma> q?
16:36:58 <AdrianP> Sandro: need to understand the semantic difference between both rif:iri and rif:link
16:37:45 <AdrianP> Sandro: feels to be too heavy weight to use const
16:38:11 <AdrianP> csma: Const was defined for rule
16:39:27 <AdrianP> Sandro: import is like a built-in
16:39:44 <AdrianP> Harold: the IRI in import needs to be actively dereferenced
16:40:31 <AdrianP> Harold: we do not formalize the semantics for dereferencing
16:41:37 <AdrianP> Sandro: you don't like a pure IRI?
16:42:34 <AdrianP> a pure IRI would violate the syntactic principle of RIF
16:43:12 <AdrianP> Harold: if we embedd the IRI directly in the role tag we violate the syntactic design of RIF. So we need a type tag like Const
16:45:00 <AdrianP> csma: you would prefer to have Const in profile and location?
16:45:21 <AdrianP> Harold: yes, Const of type rif:iri or rif_link
16:45:24 <sandro> PROPOSED: Import's location and profile will be Const of type rif:iri
16:46:01 <csma> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/meeting/2009-04-16#resolution_7
16:46:07 <sandro> PROPOSED: Import's location and profile will be Const of type rif:iri (this overturns a previous resolution, http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/meeting/2009-04-16#resolution_7 )
16:46:08 <AdrianP> also importing RDF and OWL as in SWC uses Const rif:iri
16:46:12 <AdrianP> +1
16:46:18 <Harold> +1
16:46:25 <sandro> +1
16:46:36 <mdean> +1
16:46:40 <csma> 0
16:46:44 <ChrisWelty> +1
16:47:09 <sandro> Harold: In the PS, you cannot see the difference.    It only shows up in the XML.
16:47:31 <sandro> Gary, do you have a vote?
16:48:02 <Gary> 0
16:50:24 <AdrianP> ChrisW: it puts the Const into the domain
16:51:23 <csma> q?
16:51:35 <AdrianP> Michael: constants and the String URI for importing are different things
16:52:21 <Harold> Outside the context of Import, <Const type="&rif;iri">IRI</Const>
16:52:37 <Harold> and <Const type="&rif;iri">IRI2</Const>
16:52:52 <Harold> are not equal.
16:53:35 <Harold> It is no problem that both could link to the same document within Import.
16:53:37 <ChrisWelty> harold, in BLD consts are not contextual
16:54:53 <AdrianP> Harold: what happens in import is outside in the model theory
16:55:25 <AdrianP> ChrisW: if you equate two const IRIs they are equal
16:56:51 <AdrianP> ChrisW: model theory defines the semantics of const and the semantics of const in import is different
16:57:15 <AdrianP> Harold: that why I propose const of type rif:link
16:57:21 <AdrianP> Michael: yes, that was ok
16:57:39 <ChrisWelty> i change my vote to abstain
16:57:41 <Harold> My proposal using <Const type="&rif;link">IRI</Const>
16:57:47 <Harold> avoid these questions.
16:58:04 <sandro> I think rif:link raises about 30 more questions that we're not prepared to answer.
16:58:06 <ChrisWelty> that does not avoid it
16:59:10 <AdrianP> michael: original proposal was anyURI
17:00:17 <AdrianP> Harold: we already have different types of constants
17:00:51 <Harold> My first email had proposed <Link> elements.
17:01:00 <csma> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Nov/0056.html
17:03:04 <AdrianP> there are LP language which allow to CONSULT distributed knowledge bases
17:03:18 <sandro> <Import location="...." profile="...">
17:03:20 <AdrianP> consult behaves like import
17:03:37 <sandro> <Import location="...." profile="...">
17:04:20 <AdrianP> Harold: Document can have an base attribute
17:04:47 <Harold> Yes, this would be fully striped.
17:05:00 <sandro> Portland solution:   <Import><location>...</location><profile>...</profile></Import>
17:05:44 <AdrianP> Michael: problem of striping
17:06:36 <Harold> We already have a similar XML attribute in <Document xml:base="http://example.com/people#">.
17:06:37 <AdrianP> Sandro: if we do not stripe, parses needs to know about this exception
17:07:01 <AdrianP> Sandro: that is why I lean towards using Const
17:07:30 <AdrianP> Sandro: the other reason is that we might want to import within a rule
17:07:33 <sandro> sandro: These are fine.  The reason I prefer Const type=rif:iri slightly is to avoid the parser having to know about Import.
17:07:48 <AdrianP> Harold: that what I mean with implicational goal, called assume
17:08:11 <sandro> Portland solution:   <Import><location>...</location><profile>...</profile></Import>
17:10:18 <AdrianP> Michael: why not <Import location=".." profile=" .. "/>?
17:10:27 <sandro> (Not really recorded, but Chris and Michael sound fairly opposed to the above PROPOSED.)
17:10:40 <ChrisWelty> does the "Portlant solution" have const inside the location?
17:11:09 <AdrianP> csma: does not preserve stripping
17:11:17 <AdrianP> Harold: like in Const
17:11:37 <AdrianP> Sandro: Const has special treatment, since they are a the leafes of the tree
17:11:58 <AdrianP> Harold: would introduce a completely new violation
17:12:10 <sandro> PROPOSED: use  <Import location=".." profile=" .. "/>
17:12:36 <Harold> +1
17:12:37 <sandro> -0 mostly procedurally, and because it's using attributes for the first time
17:12:41 <MichaelKifer> +1
17:12:48 <Harold> (the second time)
17:12:55 <csma> 0
17:13:00 <Gary> 0
17:13:03 <mdean> 0
17:13:06 <ChrisWelty> 0 really don't care
17:13:22 <sandro> (by procedually, I mean it's very very late to be making this kind of change.)
17:13:26 <Harold> Document(
17:13:26 <Harold>   Base(<http://example.com/people#>)
17:13:28 <AdrianP> +0 (for more expressive languages we need further types of imports even allowing variables as arguments for meta reasoning)
17:13:43 <Harold> becomes
17:13:44 <Harold> <Document
17:13:44 <Harold>     xml:base="http://example.com/people#"
17:14:24 <sandro> (I don't count xml:base as our first attribute)
17:15:47 <csma> RESOLVED: use <Import location='xs:anyURI' profile='xs:anyURI'/> (this overturns a previous resolution, http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/meeting/2009-04-16#resolution_7 )
17:16:30 <AdrianP> action Harold to change syntax in BLD and FLD
17:16:30 <trackbot> Created ACTION-965 - Change syntax in BLD and FLD [on Harold Boley - due 2010-01-12].
17:16:43 <AdrianP> action csma to change syntax in PRD
17:16:43 <trackbot> Created ACTION-966 - Change syntax in PRD [on Christian de Sainte Marie - due 2010-01-12].
17:17:07 <AdrianP> action josb to change syntax in SWC
17:17:07 <trackbot> Created ACTION-967 - Change syntax in SWC [on Jos de Bruijn - due 2010-01-12].
17:17:41 <Harold> (don't think SWC uses any XML syntax)
17:17:51 <csma> next item
17:19:55 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/TR/rif-bld/#Mapping_of_the_Rule_Language
17:21:25 <AdrianP> Sandro: I'm not okay with the previous resolution, looking at the candidate recommendation there is no Const
17:21:34 <AdrianP> Harold: χbld(loc1)
17:21:51 <AdrianP> Michael: it is not even defined in this table
17:22:13 <AdrianP> Harold: in the earlier table it is defined
17:22:29 <AdrianP> Harold: http://www.w3.org/TR/rif-bld/#Mapping_of_the_Condition_Language
17:23:22 <Harold> "unicodestring"^^symspace  maps to  <Const type="symspace">unicodestring</Const>
17:23:55 <sandro> Portland solution:   <Import><location>...</location><profile>...</profile></Import>
17:24:11 <AdrianP> Didn't we say that the XML syntax is not fully defined and might change?
17:24:17 <Harold> XSD:
17:24:17 <Harold>   <xs:element name="location">
17:24:17 <Harold>     <xs:complexType>
17:24:17 <Harold>       <xs:sequence>
17:24:17 <Harold>         <xs:element name="Const" type="ANYURICONST.type"/>   <!-- type="&xs;anyURI" -->
17:24:19 <Harold>       </xs:sequence>
17:24:20 <Harold>     </xs:complexType>
17:24:22 <Harold>   </xs:element>
17:25:31 <sandro> Sandro: I can't think of any way to justify changing from subelements to attributes, in a Candidate Recommendation.
17:27:33 <AdrianP> Sandro: How to explain this change to the world?
17:28:00 <Harold> Right now there is an inconsistency between the 
17:28:10 <Harold> XSDs of BLD and PRD 
17:28:28 <sandro> +1 extend tjhe meeting 15 miniutes
17:28:29 <MichaelKifer> +1
17:28:33 <Harold> +1
17:28:37 <AdrianP> +1
17:28:47 <mdean> +1
17:28:52 <csma> RESOLVED: extend by 15mn
17:29:13 <Harold> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Dec/0013.html
17:29:26 <AdrianP> Michael: problem is the how the semantics of named arguments is defined
17:29:27 <MichaelKifer> f(a->b c->b) = f(c->d a->b)
17:30:11 <AdrianP> Michael: this kind of implicit equality is there even if we remove equality in the head
17:30:19 <AdrianP> csma: but it is already there
17:30:28 <Harold> These equalities are implied by our use of bags (multisets) in the semantics.
17:30:37 <Harold> So, this may be fine.
17:30:45 <AdrianP> Michael: if we decide to have it, it will force us to change the semantics of named arguments
17:31:00 <AdrianP> Harold: we already use bags which implies equality
17:31:08 <MichaelKifer> f(a->b c->b) <-> f(c->d a->b)
17:31:34 <AdrianP> Michael: can change the semantics and introduce such tautologies
17:32:13 <AdrianP> ChrisW: isn't it easier to remove named arguments
17:32:39 <AdrianP> csma: removing named arguments would be a substantial change
17:33:08 <csma> q?
17:33:27 <AdrianP> Harold: bag implies equations, but they are built-ins equations
17:34:34 <AdrianP> Michael: equality in the head was made at risk because it is hard to implement
17:35:03 <AdrianP> Michael: if we allow this implicit equality we have the same problem
17:35:54 <AdrianP> Harold: implementation is to build the normal form, you create a  lexiographic ordering 
17:37:36 <AdrianP> Michael: ok
17:37:55 <AdrianP> csma: close the discussion about nau and equality
17:37:56 <Harold> Our special axiomatic unconditional equations (which could be oriented for normalization into canonical forms -- e.g. using the lexicographic order of the argument names).
17:38:10 <Harold> No real problem,
17:38:23 <Harold> because we don't explicitly axiomatize them with Equal.
17:39:49 <Harold> We keep it implicit within what the bags of our semantics mean.
17:39:54 <MichaelKifer> f(a->b c->d) = f(c->d a->b)
17:40:39 <AdrianP> csma: already written the arguments are an unordered set
17:40:56 <AdrianP> csma: already written in the spec that the arguments are an unordered set
17:42:38 <AdrianP> UNDO; RESOLVED: use <Import location='xs:anyURI' profile='xs:anyURI'/> (this overturns a previous resolution, http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/meeting/2009-04-16#resolution_7 )
17:42:38 <csma> PROPOSED: undo previous resolution
17:42:43 <sandro> +1
17:42:45 <ChrisWelty> +1
17:42:45 <Harold> +1
17:42:46 <AdrianP> +1
17:42:50 <csma> +1
17:42:52 <mdean> +1
17:43:00 <MichaelKifer> +1
17:43:21 <ChrisWelty> PROPOSED: Exercise every day
17:43:27 <sandro> csma: typical SHORT LIVED new years resolution: 10 minutes.
17:43:59 <AdrianP> csma: next meeting Jan, 19th
17:44:02 <csma> Next meeting 19 January
17:44:11 <ChrisWelty> zakim, list attendees
17:44:11 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Sandro, Harold, Stella_Mitchell, +49.08.aabb, Mike_Dean, csma, AdrianP, ChrisWelty, MichaelKifer, Gary
17:44:17 <ChrisWelty> rrsagent, make minutes
17:44:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/01/05-rif-minutes.html ChrisWelty
17:44:20 <Zakim> -MichaelKifer
17:44:21 <Zakim> -Gary
17:44:25 <Zakim> -Mike_Dean
17:44:27 <Zakim> -Harold
17:44:29 <Zakim> -Stella_Mitchell
17:44:58 <MichaelKifer> MichaelKifer has left #rif
17:45:02 <Zakim> -AdrianP
17:45:08 <ChrisWelty> zakim, who is on the phone?
17:45:08 <Zakim> On the phone I see csma, ChrisWelty, Sandro
17:51:07 <Zakim> -ChrisWelty
17:51:09 <Zakim> -Sandro
17:51:10 <Zakim> -csma
17:51:11 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
17:51:12 <Zakim> Attendees were Sandro, Harold, Stella_Mitchell, +49.08.aabb, Mike_Dean, csma, AdrianP, ChrisWelty, MichaelKifer, Gary