IRC log of rif on 2010-01-05

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:49:17 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #rif
15:49:17 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/01/05-rif-irc
15:49:36 [csma]
zakim, this will be rif
15:49:36 [Zakim]
ok, csma; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 11 minutes
15:50:12 [csma]
Meeting: RIF telecon 5 January 10
15:50:22 [csma]
Chair: Christian de Sainte Marie
15:50:48 [csma]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2010Jan/0000.html
15:51:41 [csma]
csma has changed the topic to: #rif 5 Jan RIF telecon; agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2010Jan/0000.html
15:52:25 [csma]
Regrets: LeoraMorgenstern, JosDeBruijn, HassanAitKaci
15:52:44 [csma]
RRSagent, make minutes
15:52:44 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/01/05-rif-minutes.html csma
15:52:53 [csma]
RRSagent, make log public
15:53:08 [csma]
zakim, clear agenda
15:53:08 [Zakim]
agenda cleared
15:53:23 [csma]
item+ Admin
15:53:36 [csma]
agendum Admin
15:53:49 [csma]
agendum+ Admin
15:54:09 [csma]
agendum+ Liaisons
15:54:28 [csma]
agendum+ Actions review
15:54:46 [csma]
agendum+ Public comments
15:55:08 [csma]
agendum+ XML syntax of Import
15:55:12 [Harold]
Harold has joined #rif
15:55:31 [csma]
agendum+ BLD equality/NAU pb
15:55:52 [csma]
agendum+ Implementations
15:56:16 [csma]
agendum+ Test cases
15:56:28 [csma]
agendum+ AOB (next meeting)
16:01:44 [mdean]
mdean has joined #rif
16:02:00 [Zakim]
SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
16:02:07 [Zakim]
+ +49.715.22.aaaa
16:02:07 [AdrianP]
AdrianP has joined #rif
16:02:09 [StellaMitchell]
StellaMitchell has joined #rif
16:02:24 [Zakim]
+Sandro
16:02:35 [Harold]
zakim, +49.715.22.aaaa is me
16:02:35 [Zakim]
+Harold; got it
16:02:58 [Zakim]
+Stella_Mitchell
16:03:10 [Zakim]
+ +49.08.aabb
16:03:20 [Zakim]
+Mike_Dean
16:03:26 [csma]
zakim, aabb is me
16:03:26 [Zakim]
+csma; got it
16:03:29 [Zakim]
+??P55
16:03:39 [AdrianP]
Zakim, ??P55 is me
16:03:39 [Zakim]
+AdrianP; got it
16:04:07 [ChrisW]
ChrisW has joined #rif
16:04:09 [csma]
zakim, who is on the phone?
16:04:09 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Harold, Sandro, Stella_Mitchell, csma, Mike_Dean, AdrianP
16:04:16 [ChrisW]
running late
16:04:19 [ChrisW]
be there in a min
16:05:22 [ChrisWelty]
ChrisWelty has joined #rif
16:05:54 [csma]
Scribe: Adrian Paschke
16:06:02 [csma]
scribenick: AdrianP
16:06:10 [csma]
next item
16:06:25 [MichaelKifer]
MichaelKifer has joined #rif
16:06:38 [csma]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Dec/att-0010/RIF-Telecon-8-Dec-2009.htm
16:06:54 [csma]
PROPOSED: Approve minutes from December 8
16:07:02 [Zakim]
+[IBM]
16:07:07 [ChrisWelty]
zakim, ibm is temporarily me
16:07:07 [Zakim]
+ChrisWelty; got it
16:07:26 [Zakim]
+MichaelKifer
16:07:26 [AdrianP]
RESOLVED: Approve minutes from December 8
16:07:30 [csma]
RESOLVED: approve minutes from December 8
16:07:56 [csma]
next item
16:08:26 [Gary_Hallmark]
Gary_Hallmark has joined #rif
16:09:13 [Zakim]
+Gary
16:09:15 [Zakim]
+Sandro.a
16:12:33 [AdrianP]
csma: alignment of OMG PRR to W3C RIF
16:13:48 [AdrianP]
csma: PRR might reuse the RIF namespace to define conflict resolution
16:15:39 [Harold]
Maybe there is a parallel to entailment regimes: conflict resolution strategies could be located at one point for others to reuse.
16:15:55 [csma]
next item
16:17:24 [AdrianP]
close action-963
16:17:24 [trackbot]
ACTION-963 Put BUiltins-String on agenda next time closed
16:17:48 [AdrianP]
close action-962
16:17:48 [trackbot]
ACTION-962 Contact Stella about regenerating XML for BUiltins_string closed
16:18:30 [Zakim]
-Sandro
16:19:20 [sandro]
zakim, Sandro.a is Sandro
16:19:20 [Zakim]
+Sandro; got it
16:19:57 [AdrianP]
close action-957
16:19:57 [trackbot]
ACTION-957 Send cd3 closed
16:20:08 [AdrianP]
close action-956
16:20:08 [trackbot]
ACTION-956 Move hexbinary TC with base64binary closed
16:20:24 [AdrianP]
close action-954
16:20:24 [trackbot]
ACTION-954 Submit implementation report closed
16:20:49 [AdrianP]
close action-953
16:20:49 [trackbot]
ACTION-953 Contact josderoo about implementation report and test case submission for eye closed
16:21:45 [AdrianP]
close action-950
16:21:45 [trackbot]
ACTION-950 Send response cd2 closed
16:21:57 [AdrianP]
close action-949
16:21:57 [trackbot]
ACTION-949 Send response DM3 closed
16:23:09 [AdrianP]
close action-932
16:23:09 [trackbot]
ACTION-932 Send the response to W Laun closed
16:27:33 [csma]
next items
16:27:42 [csma]
next item
16:28:32 [csma]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-comments/2009Nov/0001.html
16:30:17 [AdrianP]
csma: we need Jos on the call for this
16:30:42 [csma]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-comments/2009Dec/0006.html
16:31:32 [AdrianP]
action csma to update public comment list
16:31:32 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-964 - Update public comment list [on Christian de Sainte Marie - due 2010-01-12].
16:31:44 [csma]
next item
16:32:21 [Harold]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Dec/0011.html
16:33:23 [AdrianP]
Harold: answer to Sandro's question about active links
16:33:54 [AdrianP]
Harold: active IRI which needs to be dereferenced
16:35:28 [AdrianP]
Harold: implied goals are useful, in particular for distributed rule bases
16:35:46 [AdrianP]
Harold: second part of this mail is about the syntax
16:36:18 [csma]
q?
16:36:58 [AdrianP]
Sandro: need to understand the semantic difference between both rif:iri and rif:link
16:37:45 [AdrianP]
Sandro: feels to be too heavy weight to use const
16:38:11 [AdrianP]
csma: Const was defined for rule
16:39:27 [AdrianP]
Sandro: import is like a built-in
16:39:44 [AdrianP]
Harold: the IRI in import needs to be actively dereferenced
16:40:31 [AdrianP]
Harold: we do not formalize the semantics for dereferencing
16:41:37 [AdrianP]
Sandro: you don't like a pure IRI?
16:42:34 [AdrianP]
a pure IRI would violate the syntactic principle of RIF
16:43:12 [AdrianP]
Harold: if we embedd the IRI directly in the role tag we violate the syntactic design of RIF. So we need a type tag like Const
16:45:00 [AdrianP]
csma: you would prefer to have Const in profile and location?
16:45:21 [AdrianP]
Harold: yes, Const of type rif:iri or rif_link
16:45:24 [sandro]
PROPOSED: Import's location and profile will be Const of type rif:iri
16:46:01 [csma]
http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/meeting/2009-04-16#resolution_7
16:46:07 [sandro]
PROPOSED: Import's location and profile will be Const of type rif:iri (this overturns a previous resolution, http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/meeting/2009-04-16#resolution_7 )
16:46:08 [AdrianP]
also importing RDF and OWL as in SWC uses Const rif:iri
16:46:12 [AdrianP]
+1
16:46:18 [Harold]
+1
16:46:25 [sandro]
+1
16:46:36 [mdean]
+1
16:46:40 [csma]
0
16:46:44 [ChrisWelty]
+1
16:47:09 [sandro]
Harold: In the PS, you cannot see the difference. It only shows up in the XML.
16:47:31 [sandro]
Gary, do you have a vote?
16:48:02 [Gary]
0
16:50:24 [AdrianP]
ChrisW: it puts the Const into the domain
16:51:23 [csma]
q?
16:51:35 [AdrianP]
Michael: constants and the String URI for importing are different things
16:52:21 [Harold]
Outside the context of Import, <Const type="&rif;iri">IRI</Const>
16:52:37 [Harold]
and <Const type="&rif;iri">IRI2</Const>
16:52:52 [Harold]
are not equal.
16:53:35 [Harold]
It is no problem that both could link to the same document within Import.
16:53:37 [ChrisWelty]
harold, in BLD consts are not contextual
16:54:53 [AdrianP]
Harold: what happens in import is outside in the model theory
16:55:25 [AdrianP]
ChrisW: if you equate two const IRIs they are equal
16:56:51 [AdrianP]
ChrisW: model theory defines the semantics of const and the semantics of const in import is different
16:57:15 [AdrianP]
Harold: that why I propose const of type rif:link
16:57:21 [AdrianP]
Michael: yes, that was ok
16:57:39 [ChrisWelty]
i change my vote to abstain
16:57:41 [Harold]
My proposal using <Const type="&rif;link">IRI</Const>
16:57:47 [Harold]
avoid these questions.
16:58:04 [sandro]
I think rif:link raises about 30 more questions that we're not prepared to answer.
16:58:06 [ChrisWelty]
that does not avoid it
16:59:10 [AdrianP]
michael: original proposal was anyURI
17:00:17 [AdrianP]
Harold: we already have different types of constants
17:00:51 [Harold]
My first email had proposed <Link> elements.
17:01:00 [csma]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Nov/0056.html
17:03:04 [AdrianP]
there are LP language which allow to CONSULT distributed knowledge bases
17:03:18 [sandro]
<Import location="...." profile="...">
17:03:20 [AdrianP]
consult behaves like import
17:03:37 [sandro]
<Import location="...." profile="...">
17:04:20 [AdrianP]
Harold: Document can have an base attribute
17:04:47 [Harold]
Yes, this would be fully striped.
17:05:00 [sandro]
Portland solution: <Import><location>...</location><profile>...</profile></Import>
17:05:44 [AdrianP]
Michael: problem of striping
17:06:36 [Harold]
We already have a similar XML attribute in <Document xml:base="http://example.com/people#">.
17:06:37 [AdrianP]
Sandro: if we do not stripe, parses needs to know about this exception
17:07:01 [AdrianP]
Sandro: that is why I lean towards using Const
17:07:30 [AdrianP]
Sandro: the other reason is that we might want to import within a rule
17:07:33 [sandro]
sandro: These are fine. The reason I prefer Const type=rif:iri slightly is to avoid the parser having to know about Import.
17:07:48 [AdrianP]
Harold: that what I mean with implicational goal, called assume
17:08:11 [sandro]
Portland solution: <Import><location>...</location><profile>...</profile></Import>
17:10:18 [AdrianP]
Michael: why not <Import location=".." profile=" .. "/>?
17:10:27 [sandro]
(Not really recorded, but Chris and Michael sound fairly opposed to the above PROPOSED.)
17:10:40 [ChrisWelty]
does the "Portlant solution" have const inside the location?
17:11:09 [AdrianP]
csma: does not preserve stripping
17:11:17 [AdrianP]
Harold: like in Const
17:11:37 [AdrianP]
Sandro: Const has special treatment, since they are a the leafes of the tree
17:11:58 [AdrianP]
Harold: would introduce a completely new violation
17:12:10 [sandro]
PROPOSED: use <Import location=".." profile=" .. "/>
17:12:36 [Harold]
+1
17:12:37 [sandro]
-0 mostly procedurally, and because it's using attributes for the first time
17:12:41 [MichaelKifer]
+1
17:12:48 [Harold]
(the second time)
17:12:55 [csma]
0
17:13:00 [Gary]
0
17:13:03 [mdean]
0
17:13:06 [ChrisWelty]
0 really don't care
17:13:22 [sandro]
(by procedually, I mean it's very very late to be making this kind of change.)
17:13:26 [Harold]
Document(
17:13:26 [Harold]
Base(<http://example.com/people#>)
17:13:28 [AdrianP]
+0 (for more expressive languages we need further types of imports even allowing variables as arguments for meta reasoning)
17:13:43 [Harold]
becomes
17:13:44 [Harold]
<Document
17:13:44 [Harold]
xml:base="http://example.com/people#"
17:14:24 [sandro]
(I don't count xml:base as our first attribute)
17:15:47 [csma]
RESOLVED: use <Import location='xs:anyURI' profile='xs:anyURI'/> (this overturns a previous resolution, http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/meeting/2009-04-16#resolution_7 )
17:16:30 [AdrianP]
action Harold to change syntax in BLD and FLD
17:16:30 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-965 - Change syntax in BLD and FLD [on Harold Boley - due 2010-01-12].
17:16:43 [AdrianP]
action csma to change syntax in PRD
17:16:43 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-966 - Change syntax in PRD [on Christian de Sainte Marie - due 2010-01-12].
17:17:07 [AdrianP]
action josb to change syntax in SWC
17:17:07 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-967 - Change syntax in SWC [on Jos de Bruijn - due 2010-01-12].
17:17:41 [Harold]
(don't think SWC uses any XML syntax)
17:17:51 [csma]
next item
17:19:55 [sandro]
http://www.w3.org/TR/rif-bld/#Mapping_of_the_Rule_Language
17:21:25 [AdrianP]
Sandro: I'm not okay with the previous resolution, looking at the candidate recommendation there is no Const
17:21:34 [AdrianP]
Harold: χbld(loc1)
17:21:51 [AdrianP]
Michael: it is not even defined in this table
17:22:13 [AdrianP]
Harold: in the earlier table it is defined
17:22:29 [AdrianP]
Harold: http://www.w3.org/TR/rif-bld/#Mapping_of_the_Condition_Language
17:23:22 [Harold]
"unicodestring"^^symspace maps to <Const type="symspace">unicodestring</Const>
17:23:55 [sandro]
Portland solution: <Import><location>...</location><profile>...</profile></Import>
17:24:11 [AdrianP]
Didn't we say that the XML syntax is not fully defined and might change?
17:24:17 [Harold]
XSD:
17:24:17 [Harold]
<xs:element name="location">
17:24:17 [Harold]
<xs:complexType>
17:24:17 [Harold]
<xs:sequence>
17:24:17 [Harold]
<xs:element name="Const" type="ANYURICONST.type"/> <!-- type="&xs;anyURI" -->
17:24:19 [Harold]
</xs:sequence>
17:24:20 [Harold]
</xs:complexType>
17:24:22 [Harold]
</xs:element>
17:25:31 [sandro]
Sandro: I can't think of any way to justify changing from subelements to attributes, in a Candidate Recommendation.
17:27:33 [AdrianP]
Sandro: How to explain this change to the world?
17:28:00 [Harold]
Right now there is an inconsistency between the
17:28:10 [Harold]
XSDs of BLD and PRD
17:28:28 [sandro]
+1 extend tjhe meeting 15 miniutes
17:28:29 [MichaelKifer]
+1
17:28:33 [Harold]
+1
17:28:37 [AdrianP]
+1
17:28:47 [mdean]
+1
17:28:52 [csma]
RESOLVED: extend by 15mn
17:29:13 [Harold]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Dec/0013.html
17:29:26 [AdrianP]
Michael: problem is the how the semantics of named arguments is defined
17:29:27 [MichaelKifer]
f(a->b c->b) = f(c->d a->b)
17:30:11 [AdrianP]
Michael: this kind of implicit equality is there even if we remove equality in the head
17:30:19 [AdrianP]
csma: but it is already there
17:30:28 [Harold]
These equalities are implied by our use of bags (multisets) in the semantics.
17:30:37 [Harold]
So, this may be fine.
17:30:45 [AdrianP]
Michael: if we decide to have it, it will force us to change the semantics of named arguments
17:31:00 [AdrianP]
Harold: we already use bags which implies equality
17:31:08 [MichaelKifer]
f(a->b c->b) <-> f(c->d a->b)
17:31:34 [AdrianP]
Michael: can change the semantics and introduce such tautologies
17:32:13 [AdrianP]
ChrisW: isn't it easier to remove named arguments
17:32:39 [AdrianP]
csma: removing named arguments would be a substantial change
17:33:08 [csma]
q?
17:33:27 [AdrianP]
Harold: bag implies equations, but they are built-ins equations
17:34:34 [AdrianP]
Michael: equality in the head was made at risk because it is hard to implement
17:35:03 [AdrianP]
Michael: if we allow this implicit equality we have the same problem
17:35:54 [AdrianP]
Harold: implementation is to build the normal form, you create a lexiographic ordering
17:37:36 [AdrianP]
Michael: ok
17:37:55 [AdrianP]
csma: close the discussion about nau and equality
17:37:56 [Harold]
Our special axiomatic unconditional equations (which could be oriented for normalization into canonical forms -- e.g. using the lexicographic order of the argument names).
17:38:10 [Harold]
No real problem,
17:38:23 [Harold]
because we don't explicitly axiomatize them with Equal.
17:39:49 [Harold]
We keep it implicit within what the bags of our semantics mean.
17:39:54 [MichaelKifer]
f(a->b c->d) = f(c->d a->b)
17:40:39 [AdrianP]
csma: already written the arguments are an unordered set
17:40:56 [AdrianP]
csma: already written in the spec that the arguments are an unordered set
17:42:38 [AdrianP]
UNDO; RESOLVED: use <Import location='xs:anyURI' profile='xs:anyURI'/> (this overturns a previous resolution, http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/meeting/2009-04-16#resolution_7 )
17:42:38 [csma]
PROPOSED: undo previous resolution
17:42:43 [sandro]
+1
17:42:45 [ChrisWelty]
+1
17:42:45 [Harold]
+1
17:42:46 [AdrianP]
+1
17:42:50 [csma]
+1
17:42:52 [mdean]
+1
17:43:00 [MichaelKifer]
+1
17:43:21 [ChrisWelty]
PROPOSED: Exercise every day
17:43:27 [sandro]
csma: typical SHORT LIVED new years resolution: 10 minutes.
17:43:59 [AdrianP]
csma: next meeting Jan, 19th
17:44:02 [csma]
Next meeting 19 January
17:44:11 [ChrisWelty]
zakim, list attendees
17:44:11 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Sandro, Harold, Stella_Mitchell, +49.08.aabb, Mike_Dean, csma, AdrianP, ChrisWelty, MichaelKifer, Gary
17:44:17 [ChrisWelty]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:44:17 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/01/05-rif-minutes.html ChrisWelty
17:44:20 [Zakim]
-MichaelKifer
17:44:21 [Zakim]
-Gary
17:44:25 [Zakim]
-Mike_Dean
17:44:27 [Zakim]
-Harold
17:44:29 [Zakim]
-Stella_Mitchell
17:44:58 [MichaelKifer]
MichaelKifer has left #rif
17:45:02 [Zakim]
-AdrianP
17:45:08 [ChrisWelty]
zakim, who is on the phone?
17:45:08 [Zakim]
On the phone I see csma, ChrisWelty, Sandro
17:51:07 [Zakim]
-ChrisWelty
17:51:09 [Zakim]
-Sandro
17:51:10 [Zakim]
-csma
17:51:11 [Zakim]
SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
17:51:12 [Zakim]
Attendees were Sandro, Harold, Stella_Mitchell, +49.08.aabb, Mike_Dean, csma, AdrianP, ChrisWelty, MichaelKifer, Gary