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13:55:06 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #sparql 13:55:06 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/03/22-sparql-irc 13:55:20 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #sparql 13:55:34 <AxelPolleres> Zakim, this will be sparql 13:55:34 <Zakim> ok, AxelPolleres; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes 13:55:57 <AxelPolleres> agenda: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2011-03-22 13:56:03 <AxelPolleres> AxelPolleres has changed the topic to: agenda: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2011-03-22 (AxelPolleres) 13:56:08 <AxelPolleres> chair: Axel Polleres 13:56:14 <AxelPolleres> regrets: Chime 13:59:16 <Zakim> SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has now started 13:59:16 <Zakim> +kasei 13:59:24 <Zakim> +AxelPolleres 13:59:36 <SteveH_> SteveH_ has joined #sparql 13:59:39 <Zakim> +??P5 13:59:40 <Zakim> -??P5 13:59:40 <Zakim> +??P5 13:59:47 <MattPerry> MattPerry has joined #sparql 13:59:51 <cbuilara> zakim, ??P5 is me 13:59:51 <Zakim> +cbuilara; got it 13:59:56 <Zakim> +??P15 14:00:00 <Zakim> + +49.911.973.4.aaaa 14:00:04 <AndyS> zakim, ??P15 is me 14:00:06 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it 14:00:08 <NicoM> zakim, +49 is me 14:00:10 <Zakim> +NicoM; got it 14:00:18 <Zakim> + +22.214.171.124.aabb 14:00:34 <OlivierCorby> zakim, aabb is me 14:00:34 <Zakim> +OlivierCorby; got it 14:00:35 <Zakim> + +1.603.897.aacc 14:00:44 <Zakim> +??P19 14:00:47 <MattPerry> zakim, aacc is me 14:00:48 <Zakim> +MattPerry; got it 14:01:02 <SteveH_> Zakim, ??P19 is me 14:01:06 <Zakim> +SteveH_; got it 14:02:11 <AxelPolleres> Zakim, who is on the phone? 14:02:11 <Zakim> On the phone I see kasei, AxelPolleres, cbuilara, AndyS, NicoM, OlivierCorby, MattPerry, SteveH_ 14:02:36 <AndyS> I'll scribe 14:02:43 <AndyS> ScribeNick: AndyS 14:02:48 <AxelPolleres> topic: Admin 14:02:50 <AndyS> Scribe: Andy Seaborne 14:03:00 <AxelPolleres> PROPOSED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2011-03-15 14:03:16 <AndyS> seconded 14:03:26 <AxelPolleres> RESOLVED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2011-03-15 14:03:55 <Zakim> -SteveH_ 14:04:15 <AxelPolleres> next week back to normal? 14:04:23 <AndyS> Next meeting : Europe on summer time. Meeting 15:00 UK. 14:04:26 <AxelPolleres> Next regular meeting: 2011-03-29 @ 15:00 UK� / 10:00 EST (scribe: Birte) 14:04:43 <Zakim> +LeeF 14:04:57 <AndyS> ScribeNick: LeeF 14:05:15 <AndyS> Scribe: Lee Feigenbaum 14:05:17 <LeeF> topic: Comments 14:05:20 <AxelPolleres> topic: Comments 14:05:24 <Zakim> +??P25 14:05:34 <AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Comments 14:05:35 <SteveH> Zakim, ??P25 is me 14:05:35 <Zakim> +SteveH; got it 14:05:46 <AndyS> I have some drafts ready-to-be-approved. 14:05:55 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: unassigned comments 14:06:01 <LeeF> ...one old one from Jeremy Carrol 14:06:24 <pgearon> pgearon has joined #sparql 14:06:30 <LeeF> ...new comment on federation extension 14:06:46 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: Carlos to dradft an answer for comment WG-1 14:06:46 <trackbot> Created ACTION-413 - Dradft an answer for comment WG-1 [on Carlos Buil Aranda - due 2011-03-29]. 14:06:53 <Zakim> +pgearon 14:07:07 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: one comment by Kjetil is being superceded by other mails from Kjetil 14:07:25 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: there are some draft responses on the mailing list, please send comments / +1s on those draft responses 14:07:28 <AndyS> Andy's outstanding responses: JB-5 (zero responses so far), and SC-1 (has one yes from Axel) 14:07:48 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: re: Gregg Reynolds's comment, Lee says that offlist communication indicates that Gregg does not expect a response from this WG 14:09:12 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: should we reconsider the naming of the dataset protocol document again? alternative would be "graph store protocol" 14:09:23 <AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/CommentResponse:KK-12 14:09:47 <LeeF> AndyS: where is the vote from last time so we can see where things stood? 14:10:03 <AndyS> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2011-01-25 14:10:13 <AxelPolleres> some people replied that we might change the name to "SPARQL 1.1 Graph Store HTTP Protocol 14:10:47 <LeeF> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2011JanMar/0088.html was the list of choices 14:11:34 <LeeF> AndyS: RDF WG is likely to draw a distinction between the graph and the container for the graph 14:11:41 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: I don't think we should adopt their terminology at this point 14:11:52 <LeeF> AndyS: Right, don't know where the terminology will end up, but let's get the framework right 14:12:44 <LeeF> LeeF: I'll email the WG list floating the possibility of renaming the dataset protocol yet again 14:12:57 <LeeF> SteveH: users don't notice the distinction between mutable and non-mutable concepts 14:13:57 <Zakim> +Sandro 14:14:10 <AxelPolleres> topic: to last call 14:14:17 <AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/To_Last_Call 14:14:27 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: query status? 14:14:54 <LeeF> AndyS: I processed Birte and Axel's reviews that pertain to my sections; I'm up to date 14:15:05 <LeeF> SteveH: One note in the document that I need to talk to Andy about. 14:15:41 <Zakim> + +34.92.38.aadd 14:15:41 <LeeF> ... one piece of algebra that is wrong per Birte and haven't yet been able to figure out what is right 14:16:44 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: I also identified a few issues with the aggregate details 14:16:49 <LeeF> SteveH: Haven't yet gotten to those comments 14:16:52 <ericP> you folks don't [plan to] have a 1.1 test harness which does graph bnode isomorphism for the tester, do you? 14:16:55 <ericP> (i ask 'cause RDB2RDF group contemplating such a harness 'cause their implementations don't require isomorphism equivalence other than for testing) 14:17:05 <LeeF> ericP, no plans for that right now 14:17:08 <ericP> tx 14:17:09 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: Lee still has open review 14:17:15 <LeeF> s/open/pending 14:17:24 <AndyS> SPARQL 1.0 does? 14:17:50 <LeeF> SteveH: Not likely to be completed this month. 14:18:15 <LeeF> AndyS: there are still pending reviews from Lee and a bit from Axel 14:18:32 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: mine is OK as is if I don't get to anything else 14:19:42 <LeeF> LeeF: I'll punt on my review rather than hold back the schedule. My review is more likely to focus on editorial clarity and consistency then on the algebra details. 14:19:48 <AxelPolleres> Steve: should be ready by April 8 14:19:52 <LeeF> AndyS: Offer to help SteveH with algebra changes 14:20:06 <LeeF> SteveH: Thanks, quite possibly helpful. 14:20:35 <LeeF> SteveH: Could use help looking at Birte's suggested algebra changes for grouping, hard to figure out precise details 14:20:40 <LeeF> (agreement to take conversation offline) 14:20:42 <AxelPolleres> Zakim, who is on the phone? 14:20:42 <Zakim> On the phone I see kasei, AxelPolleres, cbuilara, AndyS, NicoM, OlivierCorby, MattPerry, LeeF, SteveH, pgearon, Sandro, +34.92.38.aadd 14:20:46 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: update status? 14:21:11 <SteveH> AxelPolleres, yes, I've not read your review yet 14:21:14 <LeeF> pgearon: will spend some time this week 14:21:31 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: Alex says we'll have update on formal semantics 14:22:10 <LeeF> AndyS: there are some yet-unaddressed comments from an earlier review from last August - we need to make sure those aren't lost 14:22:19 <LeeF> pgearon: i can look through that list this afternoon 14:22:35 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: paul to check (andy's) old comments on update 14:22:35 <trackbot> Created ACTION-414 - Check (andy's) old comments on update [on Paul Gearon - due 2011-03-29]. 14:22:55 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: Axel to check back with Alex on update formal semantics 14:22:55 <trackbot> Created ACTION-415 - Check back with Alex on update formal semantics [on Axel Polleres - due 2011-03-29]. 14:23:39 <AxelPolleres> moduylo formal semantics issue, should be ready for LC by first week of April 14:23:55 <LeeF> AndyS: other review? 14:24:01 <LeeF> kasei: Haven't had a chance to start it yet 14:24:19 <LeeF> ... ping me when I should start? 14:24:36 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: axel to ping greg for review as soon as Update formal semantics is ready 14:24:37 <trackbot> Created ACTION-416 - Ping greg for review as soon as Update formal semantics is ready [on Axel Polleres - due 2011-03-29]. 14:24:48 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: protocol? 14:25:21 <LeeF> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/protocol-1.1/Overview2.xml 14:26:25 <AxelPolleres> LeeF: section 2.1 has some updates, would be good to have feedback 14:27:53 <AxelPolleres> so, maybe if specifically the reviewers at least could have a look, comments welcome from everybody. 14:28:03 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: service description? 14:28:19 <LeeF> kasei: held up on editorial issues 14:28:24 <LeeF> ... 1 is based on protocol document 14:28:36 <LeeF> ... other is on empty graph issue, waiting on ACTION-406 for Lee to provide some text 14:28:40 <bglimm> bglimm has joined #sparql 14:28:42 <LeeF> ... minor changes, nothing substantive 14:28:53 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: on protocol document - schedule? 14:29:26 <AxelPolleres> protocol schedule schedule not entirely clear 14:29:35 <Zakim> + +44.186.528.aaee 14:29:39 <AxelPolleres> service description essentially ready for LC 14:29:48 <LeeF> kasei: for protocol dependencies I just need stable links into the document 14:29:51 <bglimm> Zakim, +44.186.528.aaee is me 14:29:51 <Zakim> +bglimm; got it 14:29:56 <LeeF> kasei: ready for LC very very soon then, I hope 14:30:03 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: dataset protocol? 14:30:29 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: there are some comments pending 14:31:44 <AxelPolleres> I made some attempt to summarise our position in the draft response to KK-12 ... 14:31:45 <AndyS> I think bullet one is done. 14:32:04 <AxelPolleres> ... maybe the name change is an issue. 14:32:25 <AndyS> ... and bullet 2 is a change in fundamentals (?) 14:32:30 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: entailment, main problem is still waiting for a review 14:32:38 <LeeF> bglimm: yes, and i might need to add something about property paths 14:32:45 <LeeF> ... because they are different from BGP matching 14:33:00 <LeeF> ... and entailment is not defined for paths that can't be reduced to normal BGPs 14:33:07 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: can we add that to wiki page? 14:33:09 <LeeF> bglimm: yes 14:34:35 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: can we move ahead without other reviews? 14:34:39 <LeeF> LeeF: no process requirement otherwise 14:34:46 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: if we have no more internal reviews, I'd be OK to go ahead 14:34:51 <LeeF> (silence, other than typing) 14:35:19 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: Birte to add aa paragraph in entailment on property paths 14:35:19 <trackbot> Created ACTION-417 - Add aa paragraph in entailment on property paths [on Birte Glimm - due 2011-03-29]. 14:35:32 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: Axel to review proprtey paths paragraph in Entailment 14:35:33 <trackbot> Created ACTION-418 - Review proprtey paths paragraph in Entailment [on Axel Polleres - due 2011-03-29]. 14:35:41 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: federated query status? 14:35:58 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: re: entailment, there is still pending discussion of d-entailment and canonicalization 14:36:06 <LeeF> ... let simmer for a week and see if we get more clarification 14:36:08 <LeeF> ... no traffic 14:36:21 <LeeF> ... we said if we don't get clarification then we might just drop it 14:36:32 <LeeF> bglimm: not sure we accomplish anything by waiting another week 14:37:03 <LeeF> bglimm: either remove it or strengthen it to define a minimum set of datatypes that need to be supported 14:37:09 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: straw poll! 14:37:25 <LeeF> bglimm: could be an option to leave as is, but seems to be agreement that it's not useful in its current form 14:37:43 <AxelPolleres> Strawpoll: +1 change D-entailment towards canonicalization -1 drop D-entailment 14:37:51 <SteveH> 0 14:37:52 <AndyS> +1 canonicalize 14:37:56 <cbuilara> 0 14:37:56 <MattPerry> +1 14:37:56 <bglimm> 0 14:37:57 <kasei> 0.5 14:37:57 <pgearon> +1 14:37:58 <NicoM> 0 14:37:58 <LeeF> -1 (haven't heard of any systems that actually do SPARQL + D-entailment) 14:38:08 <AxelPolleres> 0 14:38:45 <LeeF> bglimm: I would need help defining what data types must be supported 14:38:47 <AxelPolleres> Zakim, who is on the phone? 14:38:47 <Zakim> On the phone I see kasei, AxelPolleres, cbuilara, AndyS, NicoM, OlivierCorby, MattPerry, LeeF, SteveH, pgearon, Sandro, +34.92.38.aadd, bglimm 14:39:02 <LeeF> q+ to ask about canonicalization 14:39:07 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: Matt, could you help? 14:39:10 <LeeF> MattPerry: sure 14:40:27 <LeeF> LeeF: I don't think canonicalization (of data being input to a store) is at issue here. This is about stores that do NOT canonicalize data on the way in but enforce D-entailment rules at query time, and we don't know of any systems that do that 14:41:04 <AndyS> +1 - suggest it is on input; and for datatypes, suggest coverage - not MUST 14:41:40 <AxelPolleres> if you do and don't do canonicalization, you get different answers... that's an entailment regime, and it's done by systems 14:43:36 <LeeF> LeeF: I don't understand how canonicalization of data input has anything to do with entailment at query time 14:43:44 <LeeF> AndyS: the entailment regimes do specify legal graphs for input 14:43:59 <LeeF> bglimm: I'd rather not put in the work if there's no benefit to it 14:44:16 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: I read that Oracle does this 14:44:23 <AndyS> RIOT can canonicalize on input 14:44:35 <LeeF> MattPerry: is there things in D-entailment that would not be captured by doing canonicalization at input time? 14:44:39 <LeeF> bglimm: you also need to do RDFS entailment 14:45:15 <LeeF> MattPerry: I can send out a list of the canonicalization that we do. 14:45:36 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: Matthew to sync with Birte on Datatypes for canonicalisation 14:45:36 <trackbot> Created ACTION-419 - Sync with Birte on Datatypes for canonicalisation [on Matthew Perry - due 2011-03-29]. 14:45:52 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: federated query status? 14:45:58 <bglimm> Zakim, mute me 14:45:58 <Zakim> bglimm should now be muted 14:46:05 <LeeF> cbuilara: applied the comments from Axel and Lee 14:46:07 <AxelPolleres> topic: Fed Query 14:46:10 <LeeF> ... sent email 14:46:19 <LeeF> ... wiki page with the comments of how I handled these comments 14:46:24 <LeeF> ... waiting for answers 14:46:32 <LeeF> ... need to clarify some things 14:46:39 <LeeF> ... from Axel and Lee 14:47:03 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: link to wiki page? 14:47:31 <AxelPolleres> Carlos, add missing issues to Last call page on wiki, please 14:47:34 <AndyS> I'd take the grammar extract out - it's probably out of date. Link to ServiceGraphPattern 14:48:33 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: Carlos to look into removing grammar extracts from Fed query and direclty link to current grammar 14:48:33 <trackbot> Created ACTION-420 - Look into removing grammar extracts from Fed query and direclty link to current grammar [on Carlos Buil Aranda - due 2011-03-29]. 14:48:34 <Zakim> -pgearon 14:48:48 <cbuilara> fed Query review: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/To_Last_Call/Federated_Query_Review 14:49:02 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: JSON results format? 14:49:09 <LeeF> AndyS: no changes yet, concentrating on query 14:49:15 <LeeF> ... JSON can go on a different schedule if need be 14:49:34 <Zakim> +??P13 14:49:39 <bglimm> Zakim, unmute me 14:49:39 <Zakim> bglimm should no longer be muted 14:49:46 <NickH> Zakim, ??P13 is me 14:49:49 <Zakim> +NickH; got it 14:50:37 <AxelPolleres> Birte: entailment... ready by end of first week of april 14:50:37 <LeeF> cbuilara: if comments this week, need 1-2 weeks at most to apply final comments 14:50:46 <bglimm> Zakim, mute me 14:50:46 <Zakim> bglimm should now be muted 14:51:10 <AxelPolleres> Carlos: reaslistic 1st or 2nd week of april (assuming open questions are addressed by Lee and Axel) 14:51:23 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: overview document? 14:51:27 <LeeF> ... Lee and Axel to discuss offline 14:52:24 <LeeF> topic: test cases 14:52:33 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: looking for volunteers to look through test cases and figure out what is ready for approval 14:52:44 <LeeF> ... look through minutes, mailing list, etc. 14:52:55 <MattPerry> Property Path tests are ready as far as I'm concerned 14:53:01 <AndyS> I've added some bad syntax tests recently. 14:53:21 <AxelPolleres> Zakim, pick a victim 14:53:21 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose MattPerry 14:53:24 <LeeF> LeeF: suggest agenda items for next week: property path tests and bad syntax tests 14:53:33 <OlivierCorby> I can contribute to test cases 14:54:17 <Zakim> + +1.540.412.aaff 14:54:28 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: Olivier to look through test cases and provide a summary by next TC 14:54:28 <trackbot> Created ACTION-421 - Look through test cases and provide a summary by next TC [on Olivier Corby - due 2011-03-29]. 14:54:40 <pgearon> Zakim, aaff is me 14:54:40 <Zakim> +pgearon; got it 14:56:19 <LeeF> topic: action review 14:56:28 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: (reviews pending actions) 14:56:55 <kasei> 407 is done 14:57:11 <AxelPolleres> close ACTION-407 14:57:11 <trackbot> ACTION-407 Change conformance section in SD to refer to including "at least" one triple... closed 14:57:27 <LeeF> yes 14:57:52 <AndyS> 408 is done (currently pending) will close. review of 407. 14:58:52 <MattPerry> yes 14:59:05 <AxelPolleres> close ACTION-394 14:59:42 <AxelPolleres> close ACTION-393 14:59:43 <trackbot> ACTION-393 Review query closed 14:59:54 <AxelPolleres> close ACTION-390 14:59:54 <trackbot> ACTION-390 Update comments page closed 15:01:31 <MattPerry> bye 15:01:34 <Zakim> -SteveH 15:01:35 <Zakim> -cbuilara 15:01:37 <Zakim> -NickH 15:01:37 <LeeF> Adjourned. 15:01:39 <Zakim> -Sandro 15:01:43 <Zakim> -bglimm 15:01:47 <Zakim> - +34.92.38.aadd 15:01:49 <Zakim> -MattPerry 15:01:51 <Zakim> -pgearon 15:01:53 <Zakim> -AndyS 15:01:58 <AxelPolleres> ACTIONS upto 397 will be reviewed next time. 15:01:59 <Zakim> -kasei 15:02:04 <AxelPolleres> adjourn 15:02:05 <LeeF> RRSAgent, make logs world # SPECIAL MARKER FOR CHATSYNC. 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