Chatlog 2011-01-25

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14:58:09 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #sparql
14:58:09 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/01/25-sparql-irc
14:58:11 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:58:12 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #sparql
14:58:13 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 77277
14:58:14 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
14:58:14 <trackbot> Meeting: SPARQL Working Group Teleconference
14:58:14 <trackbot> Date: 25 January 2011
14:58:17 <LeeF> zakim, this will be SPARQL
14:58:18 <Zakim> ok, LeeF, I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM already started
14:58:19 <LeeF> Chair: LeeF
14:58:21 <LeeF> Scribe: sandro
14:58:24 <LeeF> Scribenick: sandro
14:58:28 <MattPerry> MattPerry has joined #sparql
14:58:30 <LeeF> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2011-01-25
14:58:32 <LeeF> Regrets: Chimezie
14:58:33 <SteveH> Zakim, who's on the phone?
14:58:40 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgearon, +44.208.439.aaaa
14:58:51 <SteveH> Zakim, aaaa is [Garlik]
14:58:56 <Zakim> +[Garlik]; got it
14:58:58 <Zakim> + +1.617.553.aabb
14:59:00 <Zakim> +??P11
14:59:03 <LeeF> zakim, aabb is me
14:59:04 <SteveH> Zakim, [Garlik] is temporarily me
14:59:07 <AndyS> zakim, ??P11 is me
14:59:16 <Zakim> +LeeF; got it
14:59:20 <Zakim> +SteveH; got it
14:59:20 <NickH> NickH has joined #sparql
14:59:22 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
14:59:28 <Zakim> + +33.4.92.38.aacc
14:59:36 <AndyS> zakim, who is speaking?
14:59:47 <ocorby> zakim, aacc is me
14:59:50 <Zakim> +AxelPolleres
14:59:54 <Zakim> +ocorby; got it
14:59:56 <Zakim> AndyS, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: LeeF (73%), AxelPolleres (4%)
14:59:58 <Zakim> + +1.603.897.aadd
15:00:03 <Zakim> +kasei
15:00:06 <MattPerry> zakim, aadd is me
15:00:06 <Zakim> +MattPerry; got it
15:00:09 <Zakim> +sandro
15:00:22 <Zakim> +??P19
15:00:33 <Zakim> +??P21
15:00:33 <NickH> zakim, ??P19 is me
15:00:35 <Zakim> +NickH; got it
15:00:47 <cbuilara> zakim, ??P21 is me
15:00:47 <Zakim> +cbuilara; got it
15:00:54 <LeeF> zakim, who's on the phone? 
15:00:54 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgearon, SteveH, LeeF, AndyS, ocorby, AxelPolleres, MattPerry, kasei, sandro, NickH, cbuilara
15:01:16 <bglimm> Zakim, passcode?
15:01:16 <Zakim> the conference code is 77277 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), bglimm
15:01:20 <sandro> scribe: sandro
15:01:31 <LeeF> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2011-01-25
15:01:36 <LeeF> topic: Admin
15:01:41 <LeeF> PROPOSED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2011-01-18
15:02:17 <sandro> LeeF: main thing last week was what to do with Bindings spec
15:02:20 <AndyS> seconded
15:02:27 <LeeF> RESOLVED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2011-01-18
15:02:31 <sandro> bglimm, keep trying.
15:02:36 <LeeF> Next regular meeting: 2011-02-01 @ 15:00 UK / 10:00 EST (scribe: Greg) 
15:02:59 <sandro> bglimm, different countries wont help with this problem.
15:03:35 <sandro> LeeF: Chime is switching jobs, and wont be able to make telecons, but will still be active in WG via email.
15:03:36 <Zakim> + +44.186.528.aaee
15:03:44 <bglimm> Zakim, +44.186.528.a is me
15:03:51 <bglimm> Zakim, mute me
15:03:51 <Zakim> +bglimm; got it
15:04:08 <Zakim> bglimm should now be muted
15:04:23 <sandro> LeeF: I'd like to a regular pattern for telecons of status checks, converging on Last Call.  Checking on comments, documments, reviews, etc.   That's the agenda today and for the next few weeks.
15:05:07 <LeeF> Regrets: Chimezie, Alex
15:05:35 <NicoM> NicoM has joined #sparql
15:05:42 <AndyS> q+ to suggest we ack comments quickly as it's taking time to deal with them
15:06:24 <sandro> Axel: Anyone willing to take HK2
15:06:28 <AxelPolleres> HK-2 on update ...
15:06:46 <sandro> LeeF: should be an Update editor.  Paul?
15:06:57 <sandro> Paul: I'll give it a try
15:06:59 <Zakim> -pgearon
15:07:02 <LeeF> ack AndyS
15:07:02 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to suggest we ack comments quickly as it's taking time to deal with them
15:07:08 <pgearon> argh. back in a moment.....
15:07:41 <Zakim> +pgearon
15:07:46 <sandro> (should I record this as an action?     Lee: no, we'll just use the wiki page.)
15:09:16 <sandro> sandro: it's possible to automate the "please wait, we're working on it"
15:09:25 <sandro> lee: I don't mind confirming them by hand.
15:09:47 <sandro> lee: let's let all outstanding commenters know they haven't been forgotten, and do it for the future within a few days.
15:09:51 <sandro> (sounds great)
15:09:58 <LeeF> ACTION: Lee to let commenters with open comments know that they're not forgotten
15:09:58 <trackbot> Created ACTION-378 - Let commenters with open comments know that they're not forgotten [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2011-02-01].
15:12:42 <sandro> AndyS: I could use help responding to comments on json document
15:12:44 <sandro> q+
15:12:51 <LeeF> ack sandro
15:13:22 <sandro> sandro: did you mean "substantive" in the sense of "big" or "changes to format" ?
15:13:35 <pgearon> +q
15:13:51 <sandro> lee: I don't think the WG was looking for changes to format.
15:14:11 <sandro> lee: same comments as before -- json format is kinda too verbose since it's XML-inspired.
15:14:20 <sandro> sandro: ah, okay.
15:14:21 <LeeF> ack pgearon
15:14:34 <sandro> lee: not so much "it's broken" as "it would be nice if..."
15:14:51 <sandro> paul: I dont want to see the json format change, but the document is pretty much unacceptable in its current format.
15:15:10 <sandro> paul: I think Richard (cygri) and I agree on the comments
15:15:20 <sandro> lee: it just needs a few hours of wordsmithing.
15:15:48 <sandro> lee: if someone wants to help Andy, that'd be great.    query is more urgent, though.
15:15:55 <AndyS> I'll send "thx for the comments" messages
15:16:13 <sandro> axel: one comment on Uniform HTTP protocol
15:16:20 <sandro> axel: (http delete)
15:16:41 <sandro> axel: two things on uniqueness of blank nodes, and not-exists vs minus.
15:16:46 <sandro> axel: I can draft answers.
15:17:08 <sandro> axel: but someone else please handle the HTTP Delete one.
15:17:16 <sandro> lee: We'll ask Chime to do that one.
15:17:31 <LeeF> ACTION: Lee to ask Chimezie to look at KK-6 and GR-3
15:17:31 <trackbot> Created ACTION-379 - Ask Chimezie to look at KK-6 and GR-3 [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2011-02-01].
15:17:46 <LeeF> topic: Last Call Status
15:17:56 <LeeF> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/To_Last_Call
15:18:30 <sandro> Lee: Service Description has two reviews, responded to, reaching convergence.  In very good shape.
15:18:47 <sandro> greg: a few bits waiting on other docs, or responses from people.
15:18:49 <bglimm> Zakim, unmute me
15:18:49 <Zakim> bglimm should no longer be muted
15:19:04 <sandro> LeeF: Entailment, waiting for reviews from folks who agreed to do it.
15:19:13 <MattPerry> sure
15:19:27 <bglimm> Zakim, mute me
15:19:27 <Zakim> bglimm should now be muted
15:19:34 <sandro> LeeF: Query -- plenty of references about editing continuing
15:19:50 <sandro> Lee: Any idea when it will be ready to review
15:20:12 <sandro> Steve: I'm hoping some time this week (unintelligible)
15:20:33 <sandro> Andy: three things to due.   head-to-tail edit to get references right, and go through formal section to check it.
15:20:41 <sandro> Lee: some time next week?
15:20:47 <sandro> Andy: I can't promise times.
15:21:44 <sandro> Lee: Update?
15:22:07 <sandro> Paul: all recent things mentioned about Update have been done.   But I wouldnt say the document is complete.
15:22:49 <sandro> Lee: need conversation with Alex and you (Paul).   if you have nothing on todo list, then we should have it reviewed.
15:23:30 <SteveH> q+
15:23:46 <LeeF> ack SteveH
15:24:06 <sandro> SteveH: What about Update vs Query vs other stuff on left side of equals?    update=   ?
15:24:20 <sandro> lee: as I recall, we settled on update= I think.
15:24:35 <kasei> q+
15:24:42 <LeeF>  ack kasei
15:24:50 <pgearon> q+
15:25:12 <sandro> greg: We agreed you can have multiple operations, including a query.  So maybe it should be:   request=
15:25:26 <AndyS> ?? last one is a query?  I
15:25:33 <sandro> SteveH: Did we really say the last thing might be a query??
15:25:37 <sandro> Lee: news to me, too!
15:26:04 <LeeF> ack pgearon
15:26:05 <sandro> greg: I thought in transactionality, we said the last thing was you could pull data out, even if it's not really atomic.
15:26:19 <sandro> paul: We were talking about it, but I thought we decided against it.
15:26:26 <sandro> paul: it's not in Update now
15:26:30 <sandro> greg: Okay.
15:27:02 <sandro> paul: Andy commented on Update section 3.1.2 editors note, about graph triples with bnodes.    That's still to be discussed.....
15:27:31 <sandro> lee: please send msg to mailing list
15:27:47 <Zakim> -SteveH
15:27:49 <LeeF> update=<update request>
15:27:54 <LeeF> request=<update request>
15:27:58 <sandro> lee: straw poll on update= vs request= 
15:28:10 <NickH> 0
15:28:23 <NickH> request=
15:28:28 <sandro> request=
15:28:29 <cbuilara> request=
15:28:34 <SteveH> update=
15:28:35 <MattPerry> update=
15:28:36 <AxelPolleres> 0
15:28:38 <kasei> 0
15:28:42 <ocorby> 0
15:28:43 <AndyS> request=
15:28:52 <Zakim> +[Garlik]
15:28:57 <Zakim> -ocorby
15:29:23 <AndyS> (update= is OK - not a strong feeling)
15:29:31 <AxelPolleres> q+
15:29:37 <LeeF> ack AxelPolleres
15:29:56 <bglimm> undecided, tendency to update
15:29:57 <sandro> axel: I kind of like query= [query doc]    update= [update doc] 
15:30:06 <kasei> q+
15:30:10 <LeeF> ack kasei
15:30:14 <sandro> lee: update request === request=
15:30:47 <sandro> greg: because it's form encoding, with a single form....
15:30:57 <sandro> greg: would request= accept a query?
15:31:12 <SteveH> ...we could support both update=(update) request=(either)
15:31:29 <Zakim> + +34.92.38.aaff
15:31:46 <ocorby> zakim, aaff is me
15:31:46 <Zakim> +ocorby; got it
15:32:34 <AndyS> I see that protocol uses "request" more than I remember so I'll go with update=  ["request=" either is worrying]
15:32:48 <sandro> lee: could be query=queries, update=updates, request=anything
15:33:20 <AndyS> q+
15:33:25 <LeeF> ack AndyS
15:33:59 <sandro> AndyS: I'm not keen on a std way of doing both.  I want to keep them as separate as possible.    Worried about injection attacks, etc.
15:34:08 <sandro> lee: what about Greg's web form?
15:34:31 <sandro> AndyS: A processor can offer both at the same endpoint.    I don't want to not know until parsing.
15:34:45 <SteveH> I also have AndyS's concerns
15:35:05 <sandro> LeeF: Even if a processor offers both, that doesn't solve the HTML form use case.
15:35:32 <sandro> AndyS: A form is going to do different things on the results anyway, so it'll need to look at the text anyway.
15:35:43 <SteveH> ...it's actually very hard to get it right, but eay to hack
15:35:43 <kasei> that still will require javascript client-side, right?
15:36:15 <LeeF> straw poll: update=, request=<update only>, request=<either>
15:36:20 <sandro> or server side, kasei, at something between the client and sparql.
15:36:30 <sandro> update=
15:36:37 <SteveH> update=
15:36:40 <MattPerry> upate=
15:36:41 <bglimm> update=
15:36:43 <NickH> update=
15:36:44 <AndyS> update= or request=update.
15:36:49 <AxelPolleres> update=, or request=<update only>, no preference between those two
15:36:57 <pgearon> update=
15:37:08 <kasei> happy to support an update-only term, but want one that supports both.
15:37:56 <LeeF> ISSUE: Does the SPARQL Protocol need a single form parameter that can take either a query string or an update request string?
15:37:56 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-65 - Does the SPARQL Protocol need a single form parameter that can take either a query string or an update request string? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/65/edit .
15:38:12 <SteveH> can we resolve this one?
15:38:59 <LeeF> PROPOSED: SPARQL Protocol uses the form parameter name "update" for update requests 
15:39:21 <SteveH> seconded
15:39:28 <AxelPolleres> +1
15:39:34 <NickH> +1
15:39:36 <LeeF> RESOLVED: SPARQL Protocol uses the form parameter name "update" for update requests
15:40:08 <sandro> Lee: Uniform HTTP Protocol
15:40:31 <sandro> lee: chime just sent a summary of changes.  I need to check with him to see if there are any open issues.   I don't think the thread is totally up to date.
15:40:44 <sandro> lee: I think it's nearly ready for review, but I'll check with Chime
15:40:52 <sandro> lee: we DO need to decide on name for document.
15:41:27 <LeeF> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2011JanMar/0088.html
15:41:31 <sandro> sandro: no process/techincal problems.
15:42:57 <sandro> Lee: note's Chime: My personal preference is 12 and 6
15:43:19 <sandro> lee: "dataset" seems a little confusing since operations deal mostly with graphs.
15:43:44 <sandro> sandro: what was the response to that?
15:44:05 <sandro> lee: while the protocol deals with indiv graphs, they're part of a dataset.
15:44:26 <sandro> lee: when you use graph= you're referencing a graph withing a dataset.
15:44:26 <AndyS> good summary.
15:45:45 <sandro> sandro: if we take "SPARQL 1.1" out, then what about other document titles?
15:45:47 <SteveH>  ?graph= is SPARQL-y
15:45:56 <sandro> Lee: Well, there's no real SPARQL going over the wire here.
15:46:15 <AxelPolleres> would "RESTful RDF Dataset  Protocol" be accepted as yet another alternative?
15:46:32 <sandro> Or "RDF Dataset Protocol" ?
15:46:51 <NickH> RESTful isn't offical terminology?
15:47:29 <sandro> Lee: strawpoll, type in preference
15:47:30 <kasei> 1
15:47:33 <NickH> 8,7
15:47:43 <SteveH> 1,4,5 <- all ok
15:47:50 <AndyS> 6 then 4 or 3
15:47:58 <ocorby> 6
15:48:02 <LeeF> 1,4,5 (i'm with Steve) - analogoous without SPARQL1.1  ok with me too
15:48:05 <cbuilara> 6 or 12
15:48:06 <bglimm> 1
15:48:11 <sandro> 8
15:48:14 <AxelPolleres> 8,2, 12,6
15:48:23 <AxelPolleres> (in that order)
15:48:24 <MattPerry> 6
15:48:47 <pgearon> 12, 6
15:49:47 <SteveH> strawpoll on graph/dataset?
15:49:53 <LeeF> Include SPARQL 1.1 in the name or not?
15:49:58 <SteveH> yes
15:49:59 <bglimm> yes
15:49:59 <kasei> yes
15:50:02 <ocorby> yes
15:50:02 <MattPerry> yes
15:50:03 <LeeF> 0
15:50:03 <sandro> no
15:50:05 <pgearon> no
15:50:07 <AxelPolleres> 0
15:50:07 <cbuilara> 0
15:50:08 <NickH> 0
15:50:14 <AndyS> yes
15:50:39 <LeeF> given that we want to include SPARQL 1.1 branding, please indicate preference of names 1-6
15:50:41 <SteveH> if we have SPARQL 1.1 RDF is a bit redundant
15:50:48 <pgearon> 6, 4
15:50:54 <LeeF> 1,4,5
15:50:55 <SteveH> 1,4,5
15:50:56 <bglimm> 1
15:50:59 <ocorby> 6
15:50:59 <AxelPolleres> 2,6
15:51:02 <cbuilara> 6
15:51:02 <AndyS> 6,4
15:51:02 <kasei> 1
15:51:05 <NickH> 5,4 
15:51:06 <MattPerry> 6
15:51:12 <sandro> 3
15:51:13 <AndyS> 3
15:51:14 <sandro> :-)
15:51:31 <LeeF> 1 - 4 mentions
15:51:36 <LeeF> 2 - 1 mention
15:51:41 <LeeF> 3 - 2 mentions
15:51:47 <LeeF> 4 - 5 mentions
15:51:48 <sandro> (really 0, I think.  I cant decide)
15:51:52 <LeeF> 5 - 3 mentions
15:52:00 <LeeF> 6 - 6 mentions
15:52:54 <SteveH> 4
15:52:55 <sandro> Lee: only 4 and 6: pick one
15:52:56 <kasei> 4
15:52:57 <LeeF> between 6 and 4 which would you prefer?
15:53:01 <LeeF> 4
15:53:05 <bglimm> 4
15:53:07 <sandro> 4
15:53:25 <pgearon> 6
15:53:26 <MattPerry> 6
15:53:26 <cbuilara> 6
15:53:27 <sandro> errr, please change my 4 to a 6, sorry.
15:53:33 <AxelPolleres> 6
15:53:36 <ocorby> 6
15:53:42 <NickH> 4
15:53:57 <AndyS> 64 but really neutral - agreement more important
15:54:27 <sandro> sandro: plus count Chime as a 6.
15:54:49 <SteveH> HTTP is probably redundant
15:54:53 <SteveH> but other than that it's fine
15:55:06 <AxelPolleres> http is in the short name :-)
15:55:08 <sandro> Yeah, I figure people will not bother to say "HTTP" 
15:55:11 <LeeF> SPARQL 1.1 RDF Dataset HTTP Protocol
15:55:17 <LeeF> SPARQL 1.1 RDF Dataset Protocol
15:55:39 <SteveH> RDF is also a bit redundant, but lets not go there :)
15:55:40 <NickH> I think the HTTP bit is important
15:55:56 <AndyS> short name has http in it.
15:56:07 <AndyS> sparql11-http-rdf-update/
15:56:25 <LeeF> strawpoll: include "HTTP" or not?
15:56:33 <NickH> Yes
15:56:37 <sandro> 0
15:56:39 <MattPerry> yes
15:56:39 <SteveH> no, but 0.5
15:56:40 <AndyS> 0
15:56:44 <cbuilara> 0
15:56:45 <kasei> no
15:56:49 <pgearon> 0
15:56:56 <LeeF> 0
15:57:00 <bglimm> 0
15:57:11 <ocorby> yes
15:57:13 <AxelPolleres> if we take out http, then we definitly have to revisit the short name
15:57:28 <SteveH> the short name is odd whatever
15:58:03 <LeeF> PROPOSED: Rename "SPARQL 1.1 Uniform HTTP Protocol for Managing RDF Graphs" to "SPARQL 1.1 RDF Dataset HTTP Protocol"
15:58:11 <kasei> +1
15:58:24 <LeeF> RESOLVED: Rename "SPARQL 1.1 Uniform HTTP Protocol for Managing RDF Graphs" to "SPARQL 1.1 RDF Dataset HTTP Protocol"
16:00:05 <kasei> so are the current bind08.srx results correct?
16:00:47 <kasei> ah, ok. then i don't understand the issue. need to read more about it...
16:00:54 <AndyS> Would be "cp bind-05.srx bind08.srx"
16:01:08 <sandro> lee: Federated Query.  Carlos?
16:01:31 <sandro> ADJOURN
16:01:36 <bglimm> Zakim, unmute me
16:01:38 <AndyS> BINDINGS in rq25 now. Carlos - hope it's not too short.
16:01:40 <SteveH> bye
16:01:45 <MattPerry> bye
16:01:52 <bglimm> bye
16:01:54 <AxelPolleres> bye, thanks.
16:01:57 <NicoM> bye
16:01:58 <cbuilara> I will chek it Andy
16:02:13 <AndyS> Carlos - thanks
16:02:15 <AxelPolleres> AxelPolleres has left #sparql
16:02:43 <Zakim> bglimm should no longer be muted
16:02:53 <Zakim> -LeeF
16:02:55 <Zakim> -sandro
16:03:05 <Zakim> -AxelPolleres
16:03:07 <Zakim> -cbuilara
16:03:11 <Zakim> -ocorby
16:03:13 <Zakim> -AndyS
16:03:17 <Zakim> -[Garlik]
16:03:26 <Zakim> -pgearon
16:03:28 <Zakim> -NickH
16:03:30 <Zakim> -MattPerry
16:03:34 <Zakim> -bglimm
16:20:25 <SteveH> LeeF, do we have world readable logs of this IRC session?
16:30:38 <LeeF> RRSAgent, make logs world
16:30:41 <LeeF> now we do :)
16:30:54 <LeeF> RRSAgent, pointer?
16:30:54 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2011/01/25-sparql-irc#T16-30-54
16:31:32 <SteveH> thanks Lee
16:35:01 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, kasei, in SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM
16:35:06 <Zakim> SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has ended
16:35:07 <Zakim> Attendees were pgearon, +44.208.439.aaaa, +1.617.553.aabb, LeeF, SteveH, AndyS, +33.4.92.38.aacc, AxelPolleres, ocorby, +1.603.897.aadd, kasei, MattPerry, sandro, NickH, cbuilara,
16:35:10 <Zakim> ... +44.186.528.aaee, bglimm, [Garlik], +34.92.38.aaff
18:30:20 <Zakim> Zakim has left #sparql
18:56:12 <SteveH> SteveH has joined #sparql
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