Chatlog 2010-11-30

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14:54:50 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #sparql
14:54:50 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/11/30-sparql-irc
14:54:52 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:54:52 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #sparql
14:54:54 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 77277
14:54:54 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 6 minutes
14:54:55 <trackbot> Meeting: SPARQL Working Group Teleconference
14:54:55 <trackbot> Date: 30 November 2010
14:54:56 <LeeF> zakim, this will be SPARQL
14:54:56 <Zakim> ok, LeeF; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 6 minutes
14:55:08 <Zakim> SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has now started
14:55:15 <Zakim> +??P6
14:55:25 <cbuilara> Zakim, +??p6 is me
14:55:26 <Zakim> sorry, cbuilara, I do not recognize a party named '+??p6'
14:55:38 <cbuilara> Zakim, ??P6
14:55:38 <Zakim> I don't understand '??P6', cbuilara
14:55:48 <cbuilara> Zakim, ??P6 is me
14:55:48 <Zakim> +cbuilara; got it
14:55:54 <Zakim> + +1.617.553.aaaa
14:56:02 <LeeF> zakim, aaaa is me
14:56:02 <Zakim> +LeeF; got it
14:56:05 <NicoM> NicoM has joined #sparql
14:56:28 <Zakim> +??P9
14:56:35 <AndyS> zakim, ??P9 is me
14:56:35 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
14:57:12 <Zakim> +kasei
14:57:38 <Zakim> +??P11
14:58:01 <NickH> zakim, ??P11 is me
14:58:01 <Zakim> +NickH; got it
14:58:49 <Zakim> + +49.911.973.4.aabb
14:59:04 <NicoM> Zakim, +49 is me
14:59:04 <Zakim> +NicoM; got it
14:59:09 <LeeF> Chair: LeeF
14:59:24 <LeeF> Regrets: SteveH
15:00:02 <LeeF> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2010OctDec/0316.html
15:00:07 <Zakim> +OlivierCorby
15:00:21 <MattPerry> MattPerry has joined #sparql
15:00:23 <kasei> Zakim, who is talking?
15:00:34 <Zakim> kasei, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: AndyS (17%)
15:00:56 <kasei> very strage sounding jack hammers :)
15:01:04 <LeeF> ok, guess not then :)
15:01:06 <bglimm> bglimm has joined #sparql
15:01:11 <LeeF> zakim, who's on the phone?
15:01:11 <Zakim> On the phone I see cbuilara, LeeF, AndyS, kasei, NickH, NicoM, OlivierCorby
15:01:17 <Zakim> +MattPerry
15:01:21 <LeeF> Scribenick: cbuilara
15:01:23 <LeeF> Scribe: Carlos
15:02:11 <cbuilara> I can't hear anything
15:03:11 <LeeF> topic: Admin
15:03:24 <LeeF> PROPOSED: Approve minutes from http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2010-11-23
15:03:44 <Zakim> +AxelPolleres
15:03:46 <cbuilara> LeeF: shorcuts, ask for feedback
15:04:04 <cbuilara> Leef: ask for implementation experience about update shorcuts
15:04:22 <LeeF> RESOLVED: Approve minutes from http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2010-11-23
15:04:50 <LeeF> Next meeting: Tuesday December 7, 2010 - usual time and place
15:04:58 <pgearon_> pgearon_ has joined #sparql
15:05:02 <cbuilara> LeeF: next meeting 7th December
15:05:16 <LeeF> regrets next week: cbuilara
15:05:26 <OlivierCorby> regrets also
15:05:43 <AlexPassant> regrets for me next week as well
15:05:55 <cbuilara> LeeF: 28th week of
15:06:21 <cbuilara> LeeF: tomorrow working session on protocol document
15:06:27 <Zakim> + +44.186.528.aacc
15:06:27 <Zakim> -AndyS
15:06:42 <Zakim> + +1.540.841.aadd
15:06:45 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:06:48 <cbuilara> LeeF: goal: have a protocol proposal for the group
15:06:52 <Zakim> +Sandro
15:06:55 <bglimm> Zakim, +44.186.528.aacc is me
15:06:55 <Zakim> +bglimm; got it
15:06:55 <AlexPassant> Zakim: IPcaller is me
15:07:01 <pgearon_> Zakim: aadd is me
15:07:05 <Zakim> +??P31
15:07:06 <sandro> (sorry I'm late)
15:07:11 <AlexPassant> Zakim: +IPcaller is me
15:07:14 <cbuilara> LeeF: look at the entailment decision for next week
15:07:17 <AndyS> zakim, ??P31 is me
15:07:17 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
15:07:19 <AxelPolleres> next week... entailment decisions
15:07:26 <LeeF> zakim, who's on the phone?
15:07:26 <Zakim> On the phone I see cbuilara, LeeF, kasei, NickH, NicoM, OlivierCorby, MattPerry, AxelPolleres, bglimm, +1.540.841.aadd, [IPcaller], Sandro, AndyS
15:07:36 <LeeF> zakim, aadd is pgearon
15:07:36 <Zakim> +pgearon; got it
15:07:38 <AlexPassant> Zakim, [IPcaller] is me
15:07:38 <Zakim> +AlexPassant; got it
15:08:30 <LeeF> topic: which functions?
15:08:41 <Zakim> -AlexPassant
15:09:12 <LeeF> PROPOSED: SPARQL 1.1 Function Library includes all of the functions listed at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2010OctDec/0188.html except for fn:error and the DateTime functions
15:09:45 <LeeF> PROPOSED: SPARQL 1.1 Function Library includes all of the functions listed at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2010OctDec/0188.html except for fn:error and the DateTime functions and including RAND() and RAND(X)
15:09:47 <Zakim> +AlexPassant
15:10:38 <kasei> q+
15:10:42 <LeeF> ack kasei
15:10:55 <AndyS> CONCAT has turned out *potentially* different.
15:11:18 <pgearon_> q+
15:11:25 <cbuilara> kasei: date time functions are useful, but not necessarily with keywords
15:11:31 <LeeF> ack pgearon
15:11:52 <cbuilara> pgearon: everybody is going to support date/time, I want see them in
15:12:43 <cbuilara> AndyS: we need to provide keywords, testing to see where the boundary is here
15:13:19 <LeeF> PROPOSED: SPARQL 1.1 Function Library includes all of the functions listed at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2010OctDec/0188.html except for fn:error and including RAND() and RAND(X)
15:13:50 <cbuilara> LeeF: is anybody who feels that should not include these date time functions?
15:13:55 <LeeF> (silence)
15:14:02 <NickH> :-D
15:14:19 <LeeF>  fn:round-half-to-even
15:14:30 <cbuilara> LeeF: dodgy ones are fn:round-half-to-even
15:14:34 <LeeF> s/LeeF/AndyS
15:15:42 <cbuilara> AndyS: dodgyness: in applications type float cannot be intuitive
15:15:49 <AndyS> http://www.w3.org/TR/xpath-functiofn:round-half-to-evenns/#func-round-half-to-even
15:16:02 <AndyS> http://www.w3.org/TR/xpath-functions/#func-round-half-to-even
15:16:08 <cbuilara> LeeF: anybody has experinece with that round-half-to-even?
15:16:21 <cbuilara> s/experinece/experience
15:16:34 <kasei> was the proposal to implement both the one and two-arg forms?
15:17:28 <AxelPolleres> anyone really wanting round-half-to-even?
15:17:35 <cbuilara> LeeF: the proposal would be to include all forms, all related functions of fn form
15:18:11 <cbuilara> AndyS: omitt it
15:18:13 <AxelPolleres> +1 omit
15:18:16 <pgearon_> +1 omit
15:18:23 <OlivierCorby> +1 omit
15:18:26 <cbuilara> LeeF: ample support for omit
15:18:31 <NickH> +1 omit
15:18:36 <LeeF> PROPOSED: SPARQL 1.1 Function Library includes all of the functions listed at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2010OctDec/0188.html except for fn:error, fn:round-half-to-even and including RAND() and RAND(X)
15:19:36 <ericP> ±1
15:19:48 <cbuilara> AndyS: the operators are already there, the question is whether you can call it
15:20:02 <AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/query-1.1/rq25.xml#OperatorMapping
15:20:49 <cbuilara> ANdyS: the ones missing are dates ones
15:21:01 <cbuilara> s/ANdyS/AndyS
15:21:10 <AxelPolleres> q+
15:21:15 <LeeF> ack AxelPolleres
15:21:41 <Zakim> +Chimezie_Ogbuji
15:21:45 <cbuilara> LeeF: leave it as it is, comparison support, add date time functions
15:21:50 <LeeF> PROPOSED: SPARQL 1.1 Function Library includes all of the functions listed at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2010OctDec/0188.html except for fn:error, fn:round-half-to-even, the op:* and including RAND() and RAND(X)
15:22:29 <AndyS> http://www.w3.org/TR/xpath-functions/#func-compare
15:22:43 <chimezie> chimezie has joined #sparql
15:22:50 <cbuilara> LeeF: I'd like to include it, opinions?
15:22:53 <AxelPolleres> kind of a coinflip decision...
15:23:00 <chimezie> Zakim, mute me
15:23:00 <Zakim> Chimezie_Ogbuji should now be muted
15:23:16 <AxelPolleres> the version without collation can be emulated with IF( ... < ... 
15:23:36 <cbuilara> LeeF: any implementors have an opinion
15:23:57 <pgearon_> +q
15:24:12 <LeeF> ack pgearon
15:24:40 <LeeF> PROPOSED: SPARQL 1.1 Function Library includes all of the functions listed at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2010OctDec/0188.html except for fn:error, fn:round-half-to-even, the op:*, and fn:compare and including RAND() and RAND(X)
15:24:43 <cbuilara> pgearon: I'd put it in, happy not to require to implementors
15:24:50 <pgearon_> +q
15:24:56 <LeeF> ack pgearon
15:25:33 <chimezie> +1
15:25:34 <AlexPassant> might be nice
15:25:48 <LeeF> pgearon: what about a SHA1 function?
15:25:53 <cbuilara> pgearon: wondering if SHA1 one should be part of the function library?
15:25:55 <AndyS> http://commons.apache.org/codec/apidocs/org/apache/commons/codec/digest/DigestUtils.html
15:25:55 <AlexPassant> md5 may be useful as well
15:26:05 <chimezie> 128 bit length?
15:26:14 <AlexPassant> especially for UPDATE (e.g. inserting passwords in a rdf store)
15:26:17 <cbuilara> LeeF: useful thing
15:26:25 <AlexPassant> q+
15:26:29 <cbuilara> LeeF: but not sure if we require it
15:26:32 <kasei> LeeF, no.
15:26:52 <LeeF> kasei: thinks it's useful, but shouldn't be required.
15:26:55 <AlexPassant> q-
15:27:14 <LeeF> AndyS: what would it return?
15:27:46 <kasei> I'd imagine you'd get out of it the ability to query for foaf:mbox_sha1sum based on an foaf:mbox value.
15:28:24 <cbuilara> LeeF: would anybody be unhappy including SHA1?
15:28:32 <AlexPassant> sha1 only or also md5 ?
15:29:09 <cbuilara> pgearon: send an email to the list with the proposal about SHA1 and md5
15:29:26 <LeeF> PROPOSED: SPARQL 1.1 Function Library includes all of the functions listed at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2010OctDec/0188.html except for fn:error, fn:round-half-to-even, the op:*, and fn:compare and including RAND() and RAND(X)
15:29:43 <Zakim> -OlivierCorby
15:29:49 <cbuilara> LeeF: any addition to this proposal? if there is ample support we will ammend the list
15:30:08 <AxelPolleres> seconded
15:30:08 <AndyS> seconded
15:30:13 <cbuilara> LeeF: changes to this proposal?
15:30:23 <Zakim> +OlivierCorby
15:30:26 <cbuilara> LeeF: any abstention or reject?
15:30:28 <LeeF> RESOLVED: SPARQL 1.1 Function Library includes all of the functions listed at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2010OctDec/0188.html except for fn:error, fn:round-half-to-even, the op:*, and fn:compare and including RAND() and RAND(X), no objections or abstentions
15:31:00 <LeeF> topic: keywords and URIs
15:31:05 <cbuilara> LeeF: next keywords and URIs
15:32:07 <cbuilara> LeeF: do all of these functions get their keywords in the SPARQL syntaxt and if not can we get keywords? good to have keywords for all functions? opinions?
15:32:10 <AxelPolleres> +1 for keyqords
15:32:13 <AxelPolleres> q+
15:32:17 <LeeF> ack AxelPolleres
15:32:38 <bglimm> Zakim, mute me
15:32:38 <Zakim> bglimm should now be muted
15:33:18 <cbuilara> AxelPolleres: we expect that implementations support for functions, strongly support for funcitons to be accessible by keywords
15:33:43 <kasei> AxelPolleres, how is this different from the xsd constructor functions we already require but don't have keywords?
15:33:52 <LeeF> q?
15:33:53 <AndyS> Some possible names: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2010OctDec/0283.html
15:33:53 <cbuilara> LeeF: SPARQL users do not realize of all the functions they have available
15:35:03 <cbuilara> LeeF: Axel is in favor, Kasei has objections
15:35:06 <AndyS> Yes - I'd put in names as per emaikl (not DateTime ones 'cos I can't think of names)
15:35:13 <LeeF> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2010OctDec/0283.html
15:35:22 <pgearon_> +q
15:35:28 <LeeF> ack pgearon
15:35:43 <cbuilara> pgearon: rather not include a particular prefix
15:35:57 <cbuilara> pgearon: just say date, day
15:36:16 <cbuilara> pgearon: it should be common for all queries
15:36:31 <cbuilara> LeeF: not in favor
15:36:36 <kasei> pgearon, like virtuoso's bif: prefix?
15:36:51 <AndyS> +1 to LeeF - principle is URIs - else keywords
15:37:31 <AxelPolleres> implicit prefixes need some more things to define... although I am not  strongly opposing that, that would cost more time to agree than we have, I am afraid... keywords are the shorter route, it seems
15:37:58 <cbuilara> LeeF: any other proposal?
15:38:11 <kasei> I'd support keywords for everything for simplicity as long as the keywords remain \w+ (with no dashes, underscores) including dateTime functions.
15:38:14 <chimezie> Zakim, unmute me
15:38:14 <Zakim> Chimezie_Ogbuji should no longer be muted
15:38:21 <AxelPolleres> the keywords would just be the function names with  fn: stripped off.
15:38:36 <cbuilara> chimezie: any criteria on whihc functions have keywords?
15:38:41 <AndyS> Axel - see email - not quite.
15:38:55 <cbuilara> LeeF: multiword ones
15:39:25 <AxelPolleres> CamelCase?
15:39:41 <kasei> possible dateTime functions without multiwords: YEAR(), MONTH(), DAY(), HOURS(), MINUTES(), SECONDS(), TIMEZONE()
15:40:08 <AxelPolleres> +1 to kasei's, sounds fine to me
15:40:13 <LeeF> straw poll: (1) keywords as per AndyS's mail (excludes date time functions)  (2) keywords for all (some keywords not yet specified anywhere)
15:40:26 <chimezie> 1
15:40:28 <cbuilara> LeeF: strawpoll, two choices 1- keywords as per AndyS 2- keywords for all some not specified anywhere
15:40:31 <AxelPolleres> 2 ... kasei's proposal on IRC seems just fine
15:40:34 <sandro> 0 can't decide
15:40:42 <LeeF> 0
15:40:44 <cbuilara> 0
15:40:44 <AndyS> 0 - don't care
15:40:47 <MattPerry> 0
15:40:53 <AndyS> 2
15:41:09 <kasei> 0 - neutral after this discussion
15:41:11 <pgearon_> 2
15:41:15 <bglimm> 0
15:41:17 <OlivierCorby> 1
15:41:20 <AlexPassant> 0
15:41:53 <cbuilara> OlivierCorby: maybe we align with xquery
15:42:15 <AxelPolleres> In xquery, I can use the fn: functions without prefix, BTW.
15:42:25 <cbuilara> OlivierCorby: problem: introducing more and more keyword, maybe to align to xquery
15:43:36 <cbuilara> LeeF: slight preference to include keywords for all of this
15:43:43 <AndyS> ?? Xquery uses base URI resolution to make URIs of name without ":"
15:44:21 <LeeF> PROPOSED: SPARQL 1.1 includes keywords for all functionsin function library, as per suggestions in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2010OctDec/0283.html and using YEAR, MONTH, DAY, HOURS, MINUTES, SECONDS, TIMEZONE for the date time accessor functions
15:44:45 <LeeF> PROPOSED: SPARQL 1.1 includes keywords for all functionsin function library, as per suggestions in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2010OctDec/0283.html and using YEAR, MONTH, DAY, HOURS, MINUTES, SECONDS, TIMEZONE for the date time accessor functions and RAND
15:44:56 <pgearon_> seconded
15:45:24 <LeeF> RESOLVED: SPARQL 1.1 includes keywords for all functionsin function library, as per suggestions in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2010OctDec/0283.html and using YEAR, MONTH, DAY, HOURS, MINUTES, SECONDS, TIMEZONE for the date time accessor functions and RAND
15:45:25 <cbuilara> LeeF: anybody objects or abstain?
15:45:33 <NickH> yay
15:46:03 <kasei> no, but we've recently got this: http://www.w3.org/ns/sparql#
15:46:04 <LeeF> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2010OctDec/0283.html
15:46:06 <cbuilara> LeeF: what URIs to use? SPARQL 1.0 has well defined URIs?
15:46:12 <cbuilara> AndyS: no
15:46:19 <AxelPolleres> Andy, does Xquery say something about default for the BASE URI to fn:  (... at least more than one XQuery processr I played around with did that)?
15:46:56 <cbuilara> AndyS: all SPARQL 1.0 in SPARQL 1.1 with their own namespace
15:47:34 <AndyS> Axel - would need to check the details for XQ formal spec.
15:47:36 <LeeF> zakim, who's talking?
15:47:46 <Zakim> LeeF, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: LeeF (80%), Sandro (84%)
15:47:47 <chimezie> Zakim, mute me
15:47:47 <NickH> Lots of echo!
15:47:49 <Zakim> Chimezie_Ogbuji should now be muted
15:47:58 <LeeF> zakim, mute sandro please
15:47:58 <Zakim> Sandro should now be muted
15:48:26 <LeeF> http://www.w3.org/ns/sparql#
15:48:55 <cbuilara> LeeF: use http://www.w3.org/ns/sparql# namespace for SPARQL 1.0 functions, any objection? 
15:49:08 <AndyS> q+ to ask about mapping to F&O (can wait)
15:49:31 <LeeF> sandro: is that the same as service description?
15:49:38 <LeeF> kasei: no, not the same - similar
15:49:38 <AxelPolleres> andy, hmmm, in http://www.w3.org/TR/xquery-semantics/ I didn't find anything indicating that...
15:49:43 <LeeF> sandro: should it be sparql-functions#?
15:49:58 <AndyS> Axel - try the grammar/syntax.
15:50:24 <kasei> service description namespace is: http://www.w3.org/ns/sparql-service-description
15:50:33 <LeeF> sandro: or sparql-function# ?
15:50:46 <LeeF> AndyS: need prefixes also for entailment regimes, ... what else?
15:51:01 <cbuilara> LeeF: unclear when naming aggregates
15:51:03 <bglimm> profiles in ent. regimes (OWL EL, RL, QL)
15:51:16 <bglimm> that's used in the service descriptions
15:51:45 <cbuilara> AndyS: put all service descriptions in one wikipage
15:51:51 <cbuilara> AndyS: all prefixes
15:51:51 <LeeF> AndyS: Can someone pull namespace issues together in one place?
15:51:59 <AxelPolleres> we have yet another namespace for ent-regiems, BTW, right?
15:52:13 <cbuilara> kasei: I can try to sumarize
15:52:37 <AxelPolleres> items that need URIs and which namespace we currently use.
15:52:51 <LeeF> ACTION: Greg to summarize what items we need URIs for and what URI prefixes we're currently using
15:52:51 <trackbot> Created ACTION-338 - Summarize what items we need URIs for and what URI prefixes we're currently using [on Gregory Williams - due 2010-12-07].
15:53:25 <LeeF> PROPOSED: All SPARQL 1.0 and SPARQL 1.1 functions have URIs in a SPARQL-owned namespace to be determined
15:54:03 <AndyS> q-
15:54:17 <kasei> +1 LeeF
15:54:32 <kasei> q+
15:54:33 <cbuilara> LeeF: any objection
15:54:37 <LeeF> ack kasei
15:54:49 <AndyS> LeeF: Simplist to have all functions in one space
15:55:26 <AxelPolleres> +1
15:55:26 <AndyS>  FYI: Can call aggs by URI currently
15:55:30 <LeeF> RESOLVED: All SPARQL 1.0 and SPARQL 1.1 functions have URIs in a SPARQL-owned namespace to be determined
15:56:22 <cbuilara> LeeF: remaining issues, simple literal, access string stuff
15:56:42 <cbuilara> LeeF: remaining: string concatenation
15:56:50 <cbuilara> LeeF: latests proposals from AndyS
15:56:54 <LeeF> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2010OctDec/0283.html -- has a proposal for how to handle simple literals, xsd:strings, and language tags in concat
15:57:00 <AndyS> If we have CONCAT, I'm happy to drop overloading "+"
15:57:13 <LeeF> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2010OctDec/0302.html - proposes not to require overloading + for concatenation
15:57:24 <AxelPolleres> "CONCAT("a"^^xsd:string, "b") -> "ab"^^xsd:string (?? choice point)" ...
15:57:45 <AxelPolleres> the coin flip is basically whetherr to default to return type plain lit, or string, isn't it?
15:57:50 <cbuilara> LeeF: people to catch up in the mail threads, comments please
15:58:48 <chimezie> bye
15:58:50 <Zakim> -Chimezie_Ogbuji
15:58:51 <Zakim> -LeeF
15:58:51 <Zakim> -MattPerry
15:58:51 <bglimm> bye
15:58:52 <Zakim> -AxelPolleres
15:58:53 <Zakim> -AlexPassant
15:58:56 <Zakim> -bglimm
15:58:57 <MattPerry> \quit
15:58:57 <Zakim> -Sandro
15:58:57 <Zakim> -pgearon
15:58:58 <Zakim> -OlivierCorby
15:58:59 <Zakim> -AndyS
15:59:01 <Zakim> -NicoM
15:59:05 <Zakim> -cbuilara
15:59:07 <Zakim> -NickH
15:59:09 <Zakim> -kasei
15:59:11 <Zakim> SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has ended
15:59:13 <Zakim> Attendees were cbuilara, +1.617.553.aaaa, LeeF, AndyS, kasei, NickH, +49.911.973.4.aabb, NicoM, OlivierCorby, MattPerry, AxelPolleres, +1.540.841.aadd, Sandro, bglimm, pgearon,
15:59:16 <Zakim> ... AlexPassant, Chimezie_Ogbuji
16:00:22 <OlivierCorby> OlivierCorby has left #sparql
16:12:15 <cbuilara> cbuilara has joined #sparql
16:16:24 <AxelPolleres_> AxelPolleres_ has joined #sparql
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