Chatlog 2010-06-01

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09:57:00 <LeeF> Chair: LeeF
09:57:00 <LeeF> Regrets: Axel, Alex, Souri, SteveH
09:57:00 <sandro> scribe: sandro
09:57:00 <sandro> rrsagent, make log public
09:57:00 <sandro> meeting: SPARQL Working Group
09:57:00 <Zakim> SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has now started
09:57:00 <Zakim> +??P4
09:58:00 <Zakim> +??P5
09:58:00 <NicholasHumfrey> zakim, ??P4 is me
09:58:00 <Zakim> +NicholasHumfrey; got it
09:58:00 <Zakim> +Lee_Feigenbaum
09:58:00 <AndyS> zakim, ??P5 is me
09:58:00 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
09:58:00 <Zakim> +OlivierCorby
09:58:00 <Zakim> +Sandro
09:59:00 <LeeF> zakim, who's on the phone?
09:59:00 <Zakim> On the phone I see NicholasHumfrey, AndyS, Lee_Feigenbaum, OlivierCorby, Sandro
09:59:00 <Zakim> +kasei
10:00:00 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
10:00:00 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
10:00:00 <Zakim> +Ivan
10:00:00 <Zakim> +MattPerry
10:00:00 <Zakim> -MattPerry
10:00:00 <chimezie> Zakim, passcode?
10:00:00 <Zakim> the conference code is 77277 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), chimezie
10:01:00 <Zakim> +MattPerry
10:01:00 <Zakim> +Chimezie_Ogbuji
10:01:00 <Zakim> +pgearon
10:02:00 <chimezie> Zakim, mute me
10:02:00 <Zakim> Chimezie_Ogbuji should now be muted
10:02:00 <LeeF> zakim, who's on the phone?
10:02:00 <Zakim> On the phone I see NicholasHumfrey, AndyS, Lee_Feigenbaum, OlivierCorby, Sandro, kasei (muted), Ivan, MattPerry, pgearon, Chimezie_Ogbuji (muted)
10:02:00 <sandro> zakim, list attendees
10:02:00 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been NicholasHumfrey, Lee_Feigenbaum, AndyS, OlivierCorby, Sandro, kasei, Ivan, MattPerry, Chimezie_Ogbuji, pgearon
10:03:00 <sandro> lee: not a big agenda today, but let's try to make progress on all our issues
10:03:00 <Zakim> +dcharbon2
10:03:00 <LeeF> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2010-06-01
10:03:00 <sandro> lee: we should have time for extra matters, if they come up.
10:03:00 <LeeF> PROPOSED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2010-05-25
10:04:00 <LeeF> RESOLVED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2010-05-25
10:04:00 <LeeF> Next meeting: 2010-06-08 @ 15:00 UK / 10:00 EST (scribe: Steve Harris) 
10:04:00 <chimezie> i will be out next tuesday
10:05:00 <Zakim> +??P25
10:06:00 <sandro> lee: I'm hoping to advertise this next round a lot better.    we're just a round or two from last call.
10:06:00 <AndyS> +1 to more feedback - last call is *last* call :-)
10:07:00 <sandro> sandro: if someone is only going to review it once, then just last call
10:07:00 <Zakim> + +1.540.412.aaaa
10:08:00 <sandro> lee: I don't want a repeat of DAWG's three last calls!
10:08:00 <Zakim> -pgearon
10:08:00 <pgearon> Zakim, aaaa is me
10:08:00 <Zakim> +pgearon; got it
10:08:00 <sandro> sandro: Okay, then in the publicity now, highlight whatever is likely to be controvercial.
10:08:00 <sandro> lee: yeah, I was going to contact the editors to talk about that.
10:09:00 <LeeF> sandro: AC reps encouraged to give feedback on RIF PR if interested
10:11:00 <AndyS> q+
10:12:00 <LeeF> ack AndyS
10:13:00 <sandro> sandro: I think linked data has turned the corner and is rolling downhill in the govt space now
10:13:00 <NicholasHumfrey> I will pass things on to other SPARQL users in the BBC
10:13:00 <sandro> lee: Any particular groups we should contact there?
10:13:00 <kasei> I can send the draft pointers to the data.gov group for comments.
10:13:00 <sandro> sandro: I can't think of any right now.   I suggest a blog post and careful use of twitter to get the word out,
10:14:00 <sandro> (rdb2rdf stuff missed)
10:15:00 <AndyS> AndyS: maybe data.gov.uk (Government Linked Data Kernel Project)
10:15:00 <sandro> Lee: Dedicate call on something planned, did scheduling poll.
10:15:00 <LeeF> Monday, June 7th
10:15:00 <LeeF> at 10am ET / 3pm UK time
10:15:00 <sandro> topic: #  HTTP RDF Update dedicate TC scheduling 
10:15:00 <sandro> lee: all interested parties be there.
10:16:00 <AndyS> Is this HTTP update or all update?
10:16:00 <sandro> lee: This is specifically HTTP update, not "all update".
10:17:00 <sandro> topic: Property paths dedicated TC
10:17:00 <sandro> lee: very successful.    thanks Andy for the suggestion of these dedicated TCs.
10:17:00 <sandro> lee: we got consensus around all the issues
10:17:00 <LeeF> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2010AprJun/0285.html
10:18:00 <sandro> lee: I'd like to run through these proposals and get WG approval now.
10:18:00 <Zakim> +bglimm
10:18:00 <LeeF> PROPOSED: The ^ inverse path operator is strictly a unary operator.
10:19:00 <LeeF> . /^
10:20:00 <AndyS> q+
10:20:00 <LeeF> ack AndyS
10:20:00 <sandro> sandro: Could this change be adopted back into n3 ?
10:20:00 <LeeF> AndyS: N3 doesn't use forward slash (/) anyway for paths, it uses !
10:20:00 <LeeF> ... so the differences in syntax are already there
10:21:00 <LeeF> ...  N3 uses ^ both as unary reverse operator and as a combining operator
10:21:00 <sandro> andy: n3 uses ! instead of / so there are differences there anyway.     n3 uses ^ in a different way, both in paths and in an binary sense, where we're not using it.
10:21:00 <LeeF> ... SPARQL WG prefers single combining syntax (/) and operator (^) for reversing
10:22:00 <kasei> +1
10:22:00 <bglimm> +1
10:22:00 <sandro> +0
10:22:00 <pgearon> abstain
10:22:00 <AndyS> +0
10:22:00 <ivan> 0
10:22:00 <OlivierCorby> +1
10:22:00 <dcharbon2> 0
10:22:00 <MattPerry> +1
10:23:00 <sandro> lee: do we need more +1s than +0s?
10:23:00 <LeeF> RESOLVED: The ^ inverse path operator is strictly a unary operator, with sandro, AndyS, ivan, dcharbon2, pgearon abstaining
10:23:00 <sandro> sandro: no, it's okay
10:23:00 <LeeF> PROPOSED: Property paths do not preserve the order of underlying graph structures (no change to spec).
10:24:00 <sandro> lee: To returns list items in order using property paths would require deep changes to the algebra, etc.
10:25:00 <sandro> ivan: I am disappointed that this is a problem that SPARQL 1.1 cannot solve.
10:25:00 <sandro> lee: We all wish we had a solution.
10:25:00 <AndyS> Needs more than SPARQL to solve!
10:26:00 <MattPerry> +1
10:26:00 <AndyS> +1
10:26:00 <pgearon> +1
10:26:00 <bglimm> +1
10:26:00 <ivan> 0
10:26:00 <ivan> 0 :-(
10:26:00 <sandro> +0 sounds okay, but I don't really understand the issues
10:26:00 <OlivierCorby> +1
10:26:00 <LeeF> RESOLVED: Property paths do not preserve the order of underlying graph structures (no change to spec), ivan, sandro abstaining
10:27:00 <sandro> thanks, pgearon, but the real problem is that I don't have time to think about it.
10:27:00 <LeeF> PROPOSED: Postpone (beyond this WG) any work on returning the length of a matched property path.
10:28:00 <sandro> +1
10:28:00 <bglimm> +1
10:28:00 <pgearon> +1
10:28:00 <AndyS> +1
10:28:00 <MattPerry> +1
10:28:00 <LeeF> RESOLVED: Postpone (beyond this WG) any work on returning the length of a matched property path.
10:28:00 <OlivierCorby> +1
10:28:00 <LeeF> PROPOSED: The cardinality of solutions to fixed-length paths is the same as the cardinality of solutions to the path expanded into
10:28:00 <LeeF> triple patterns (with all variables projected); the cardinality of solutions to variable-length paths is the cardinality of solutions
10:28:00 <LeeF> via paths that do not repeat nodes; the cardinality of solutions to paths combining fixed and variable length (elt{n,} ) is a combination
10:28:00 <LeeF> of the fixed definition plus the variable definition for paths longer than the fixed length.
10:30:00 <sandro> PROPOSED: Cardinality of solutions to property paths is as in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2010AprJun/0285
10:30:00 <AndyS> And see also Birte's http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2010AprJun/0293
10:31:00 <sandro> lee: Note this does not affect the answers you get, just the cardinality of the answers.
10:31:00 <LeeF> {n,}
10:32:00 <sandro> +1
10:32:00 <bglimm> So what is the cardinality of query with BGP a r+ ?x ?  on graph:  a r b. b r c . b r d. ? 2? because the path uses b twice, but it is still a different path for a to c and a to d. 
10:32:00 <LeeF> PROPOSED: Cardinality of solutions to property paths is as in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2010AprJun/0285
10:32:00 <bglimm> Zakim, unmute me
10:32:00 <Zakim> bglimm should no longer be muted
10:34:00 <LeeF> b r b.
10:34:00 <sandro> lee: ?x bound to c and d, each soln has card 1.
10:34:00 <sandro> (really, lee, where are you goging?   :-)
10:34:00 <sandro> chime: resonsible for detecting cycles and excluding paths that use them
10:35:00 <sandro> lee: yes
10:35:00 <sandro> +1
10:36:00 <LeeF> PROPOSED: Cardinality of solutions to property paths is as in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2010AprJun/0285
10:36:00 <sandro> lee: obviously if new information is unearthed in the future, we can revisit these decisions.   But let's move forward now unless someone sees an actual problem.
10:36:00 <AndyS> +1
10:36:00 <bglimm> +1
10:36:00 <OlivierCorby> +1
10:36:00 <dcharbon2> +1
10:36:00 <MattPerry> +1
10:36:00 <pgearon> +1
10:36:00 <LeeF> RESOLVED: Cardinality of solutions to property paths is as in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2010AprJun/0285
10:37:00 <sandro> (it seems to me that one needs to keep track of cycles anyway.)
10:38:00 <LeeF> PROPOSED: Property paths include an operator to negate paths consisting of URIs and reverse URIs only.
10:38:00 <sandro> lee: I missed the discussion of this next one, about negating paths of URIs only -- no negation of +/*
10:38:00 <AndyS> Yes - accurate
10:39:00 <LeeF> PROPOSED: Property paths include an operator to negate paths consisting of URIs and reverse URIs only; more complex paths (such as those including * or +) cannot be negated
10:39:00 <AndyS> Douglas Reid / BBN / http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2010Feb/0000.html
10:39:00 <sandro> +1
10:39:00 <AndyS> +1
10:39:00 <MattPerry> +1
10:39:00 <OlivierCorby> +1
10:39:00 <ivan> +1
10:39:00 <bglimm> 0 (I am scared of path negation)
10:39:00 <dcharbon2> +1
10:39:00 <pgearon> +1
10:39:00 <LeeF> RESOLVED: Property paths include an operator to negate paths consisting of URIs and reverse URIs only; more complex paths (such as those incliuding * or +) cannot be negated, bglimm abstaining
10:40:00 <LeeF> ?s :p{0} ?o
10:40:00 <sandro> lee: is this bound to every node in the data set?   every node in the universe?   nothing?
10:41:00 <sandro> (I think: every node/pair in the dataset.)
10:41:00 <LeeF> zakim, who's on the phone?
10:41:00 <Zakim> On the phone I see NicholasHumfrey, AndyS, Lee_Feigenbaum, OlivierCorby, Sandro, kasei (muted), Ivan, MattPerry, Chimezie_Ogbuji, dcharbon2, ??P25, pgearon, bglimm (muted)
10:41:00 <sandro> lee: anything else on property paths?   no....
10:42:00 <bglimm> I would say that ?s :p{0} ?o is every pair of nodes in the graph
10:42:00 <sandro> lee: no point in talking about Steve's issue on the WHERE part of sparql update, with SERVICE, since Steve isn't here.
10:43:00 <sandro> right, I think so too, bglimm 
10:43:00 <LeeF> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2010AprJun/0267.html
10:43:00 <sandro> lee: anyone have any progress on Steve's query issue here?
10:43:00 <sandro> topic: SPARQL Update and SERVICE  (move this up)
10:44:00 <sandro> pgearon: I think it would be fine!
10:44:00 <sandro> pgearon: Since they occur one after the other, it would see the deletion.
10:44:00 <sandro> lee: please reply to Steve on the mailing list.
10:44:00 <sandro> topic: Open Issues
10:45:00 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/open
10:45:00 <ivan> q+
10:45:00 <LeeF> ack ivan
10:46:00 <bglimm> Zakim, unmute me
10:46:00 <Zakim> bglimm should no longer be muted
10:46:00 <sandro> ivan: should we talk about which URIs to use, for the entailment regimes and for import
10:46:00 <bglimm> http://www.w3.org/ns/entailment/RDF is wrong for describing RDF entailment in SDs?
10:47:00 <bglimm> Zakim, unmute me
10:47:00 <Zakim> bglimm was not muted, bglimm
10:47:00 <sandro> sandro: RIF will review the published version and give its feedback in general, and on the URIs in specific.
10:48:00 <bglimm> The namespace and URI used for rif:imports is still under discussion within the group
10:48:00 <bglimm> Should that entailment URI be http://www.w3.org/ns/entailment/RIF instead, since the choice between Core, BLD, or PLD does not mean a difference in entailment semantics but rather a difference in syntactic subsets of RIF?
10:48:00 <sandro> sandro: if the URIs are reasonable straw proposals, then leave them.    if we know they're bad, then use example.org.
10:48:00 <bglimm> These are the 2 ed notes we have for RIF
10:49:00 <sandro> chime: we could use entailment/rif and change the note to clarify
10:49:00 <sandro> ivan: but for import we have nothing in mind.
10:49:00 <sandro> ivan: Okay.
10:51:00 <sandro> lee: so are we changing entailment regimes doc today, or not?
10:51:00 <sandro> chime: Yes, change from rdf-core (rif-core?) to rif
10:52:00 <bglimm> http://www.w3.org/ns/entailment/RDF-RIF-Core is the URI to describe the RIF regime in SDs
10:52:00 <bglimm> That I guess should be changed
10:53:00 <bglimm> Zakim, mute me
10:53:00 <Zakim> bglimm should now be muted
10:53:00 <sandro> sandro: for the webmaster, it seems like we should prepare something like: sparql/round_nnn/WD-sparql-update-20100601/(all the files there)
10:53:00 <AndyS> Can I start editing rq25 again now?
10:54:00 <AndyS> There is an HTML copy anyway.
10:54:00 <sandro> lee: Yes, you can start editing rq25 again.
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