Chatlog 2010-05-11

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13:56:14 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #sparql
13:56:14 <RRSAgent> logging to
13:56:16 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
13:56:16 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #sparql
13:56:18 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 77277
13:56:18 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
13:56:19 <LeeF> zakim, this will be SPARQL
13:56:19 <trackbot> Meeting: SPARQL Working Group Teleconference
13:56:19 <Zakim> ok, LeeF; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
13:56:19 <trackbot> Date: 11 May 2010
13:56:24 <LeeF> Agenda:
13:56:53 <LeeF> agenda+ Administration
13:57:00 <LeeF> agenda+ Negation survey
13:57:08 <LeeF> agenda+ Document reviews and readiness
13:57:14 <LeeF> agenda+ Dedicated telecons?
13:57:16 <LeeF> agenda+ AOB?
13:58:20 <Zakim> SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has now started
13:58:20 <LeeF> kasei, do we have any need to talk about the naming issues more on today's TC?
13:58:28 <Zakim> +??P18
13:58:35 <AndyS> zakim, ??P18 is me
13:58:35 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
13:58:44 <Zakim> +Lee_Feigenbaum
13:58:59 <kasei> I think only if sandro has more to say (and he's not here today, right?)
13:59:21 <Zakim> + +49.238.aaaa
13:59:47 <Zakim> + +1.518.276.aabb
13:59:49 <OlivierCorby> Zakim, 49.238.aaaa is me
13:59:49 <Zakim> sorry, OlivierCorby, I do not recognize a party named '49.238.aaaa'
13:59:56 <kasei> we could discuss namedgraph vs. namedgraphdescription, but that seems less interesting..
14:00:00 <kasei> Zakim, aabb is me
14:00:02 <Zakim> +kasei; got it
14:00:14 <OlivierCorby> Zakim, aaaa is me
14:00:14 <Zakim> +OlivierCorby; got it
14:00:28 <LeeF> Regrets: MattPerry, Souri
14:00:44 <kasei> Zakim, mute me
14:00:44 <Zakim> kasei should now be muted
14:00:54 <AndyS> kasei - what do you think?  /me will go with what the editor suggests (evenifnamedgraphdescriptionisverylong)
14:01:07 <Zakim> +??P27
14:01:09 <kasei> AndyS, ick! :)
14:01:18 <bglimm> Zakim, ??P27 is me
14:01:19 <Zakim> +bglimm; got it
14:01:20 <LeeF> minutes from last week are at -
14:01:27 <kasei> I prefer just NamedGraph, but NamedGraphDescription certainly seems more accurate.
14:01:32 <bglimm> Zakim, mute me
14:01:32 <Zakim> bglimm should now be muted
14:01:53 <Zakim> + +03539149aacc
14:02:02 <AxelPolleres> trackbot, start meeting
14:02:04 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:02:06 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 77277
14:02:06 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start 2 minutes ago
14:02:07 <trackbot> Meeting: SPARQL Working Group Teleconference
14:02:07 <trackbot> Date: 11 May 2010
14:02:14 <LeeF> zakim, this is SPARQL
14:02:14 <Zakim> ok, LeeF; that matches SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM
14:02:26 <LeeF> zakim, aacc is AxelPolleres
14:02:26 <Zakim> +AxelPolleres; got it
14:02:31 <LeeF> zakim, who's on the phone?
14:02:31 <Zakim> On the phone I see AndyS, Lee_Feigenbaum, OlivierCorby, kasei (muted), bglimm (muted), AxelPolleres
14:02:44 <AndyS> Could explain in the text that it describes.  It's a pun we use all the time thing and pattern for thing - we talk about triples in a query
14:02:48 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
14:02:48 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
14:02:50 <Zakim> +Ivan
14:03:20 <kasei> did anyone understand the openlink BINDINGS issue email?
14:03:26 <kasei> AndyS - yes, true.
14:03:36 <LeeF> kasei, I asked that it be sent to the WG mailing list, and then I'll give it a close read
14:03:52 <AxelPolleres> scribe: Axel Polleres
14:04:41 <AxelPolleres> LeeF: main goal is to check documents for publication, and secondly collect big issues and schedule
14:05:09 <AxelPolleres> ... dedicated task forces/telecons on these issues (Andy's suggestion)
14:05:31 <LeeF> zakim, next agendm
14:05:32 <Zakim> I don't understand 'next agendm', LeeF
14:05:33 <LeeF> zakim, next agendum
14:05:33 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Administration" taken up [from LeeF]
14:05:38 <AxelPolleres> topic: Admin
14:05:43 <LeeF> minutes from last week -
14:05:50 <LeeF> PROPOSED: Approve minutes at
14:06:13 <LeeF> RESOLVED: Approve minutes at
14:06:27 <LeeF> next meeting is one week from today May 18
14:06:31 <ivan> regrets for me
14:06:36 <LeeF> Sandro to scribe next week
14:06:44 <ivan> I will be at a meeting in Stockholm
14:06:45 <AxelPolleres> sandro to scribe next week.
14:07:17 <Zakim> + +1.312.863.aadd
14:07:19 <AxelPolleres> other admin issues?
14:07:29 <pgearon> Zakim, aadd is me
14:07:30 <Zakim> +pgearon; got it
14:07:44 <AxelPolleres> Lee: rdb2rdf to publish use cases/requirements soon...
14:07:58 <pgearon> hi
14:07:59 <AlexPassant> AlexPassant has joined #sparql
14:08:13 <AxelPolleres> ... rdb2rdf discuss whether SPARQL2SQL is a goal or not.
14:08:20 <LeeF> zakim, close agendum
14:08:20 <Zakim> I don't understand 'close agendum', LeeF
14:08:24 <LeeF> zakim, next agendum
14:08:24 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Negation survey" taken up [from LeeF]
14:08:30 <Zakim> +??P14
14:08:36 <AlexPassant> Zakim, ??P14 is me
14:08:36 <AxelPolleres> topic: negation survey
14:08:38 <Zakim> +AlexPassant; got it
14:08:43 <LeeF> web survey on negation at
14:09:29 <AxelPolleres> Lee: one response per organisation
14:09:49 <AxelPolleres> ... please agree and reply by monday next week.
14:10:35 <AxelPolleres> ... if appropriate add rationale to your answers, but not obligatory.
14:10:35 <LeeF> zakim, next agendum
14:10:35 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Document reviews and readiness" taken up [from LeeF]
14:10:50 <AxelPolleres> topic: Document reviews and readiness
14:11:37 <AxelPolleres> lee: we look at actually publishing end of next week, all docs that are ready, not necessarily all.
14:11:50 <AxelPolleres> subtopic: query
14:11:52 <AxelPolleres> Lee: matt did a review.
14:11:56 <LeeF> MattPerry's review of query document:
14:12:48 <AxelPolleres> ... looks like no real blockers for publishing in those comments, but some things should be sorted before publication.
14:13:19 <AndyS>
14:13:25 <AxelPolleres> Andy: I expected this publication to be rather a snapshot.
14:13:47 <AxelPolleres> Lee: we won't neglect those comments.
14:14:00 <AxelPolleres> Andy: TODOs have been added.
14:14:16 <LeeF> PROPOSED: Publish SPARQL 1.1 Query as a Working Draft
14:14:26 <ivan> +1
14:14:27 <bglimm> +1
14:14:27 <AxelPolleres> +1
14:14:39 <OlivierCorby> +1
14:14:40 <LeeF> RESOLVED: Publish SPARQL 1.1 Query as a Working Draft
14:14:47 <AxelPolleres> Lee: anyone wants to abstain or object?
14:14:51 <AxelPolleres> no one...
14:15:31 <LeeF> ACTION: Lee to remove old working draft snapshots from CVS
14:15:31 <trackbot> Created ACTION-233 - Remove old working draft snapshots from CVS [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2010-05-18].
14:15:33 <AxelPolleres> Lee: Editors please check as far as possible the pubrules, will take over overall coordination.
14:15:41 <LeeF> ACTION: Lee to coordinate prep and publication of working drafts
14:15:41 <trackbot> Created ACTION-234 - Coordinate prep and publication of working drafts [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2010-05-18].
14:15:56 <AxelPolleres> subtopic: update
14:16:28 <AxelPolleres> Lee: my review will be done this week, hope to decide to publish next week
14:16:56 <LeeF> return codes discussion:
14:17:03 <AxelPolleres> Paul: ... discussion about partial LOAD.
14:17:26 <chimezie> chimezie has joined #sparql
14:17:34 <AndyS> We do say "failure => stop, no further operations attempted"?
14:17:34 <bglimm> Zakim, bglimm has bglimm, chimezie
14:17:34 <Zakim> +bglimm, chimezie; got it
14:17:41 <chimezie> Zakim, who is on the phone?
14:17:41 <Zakim> On the phone I see AndyS, Lee_Feigenbaum, OlivierCorby, kasei (muted), bglimm (muted), AxelPolleres, Ivan, pgearon, AlexPassant
14:17:43 <AxelPolleres> ... not sure what/how much to say about success/failure here. 
14:17:43 <Zakim> bglimm has bglimm, chimezie
14:18:18 <chimezie> Zakim, who is here?
14:18:18 <Zakim> On the phone I see AndyS, Lee_Feigenbaum, OlivierCorby, kasei (muted), bglimm (muted), AxelPolleres, Ivan, pgearon, AlexPassant
14:18:22 <Zakim> bglimm has bglimm, chimezie
14:18:24 <Zakim> On IRC I see chimezie, AlexPassant, Zakim, RRSAgent, LeeF, bglimm, OlivierCorby, AndyS, AxelPolleres, ivan, iv_an_ru, pgearon, karl, kasei, sandro, trackbot
14:18:53 <AxelPolleres> Lee: we had discussed different failure codes for different failure conditions for protocol
14:19:03 <AndyS> q+
14:19:08 <LeeF> ack AndyS
14:19:08 <AxelPolleres> ... do people think we need that or just success/failure?
14:19:36 <pgearon> +q
14:19:40 <LeeF> ack pgearon
14:20:09 <AxelPolleres> Andy: don't mind more sophisticated failure, but some systems may have difficulties determining partial load 
14:20:44 <AxelPolleres> andy, did I get that right?
14:21:18 <LeeF> AndyS: some systems would have a lot of trouble telling one failure cause from another
14:21:35 <AxelPolleres> Andy: we can make some suggestions
14:22:10 <AxelPolleres> q+ 
14:22:29 <AxelPolleres> Lee: think simple approach is better for the moment
14:22:47 <LeeF> ack AxelPolleres
14:23:08 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: What was Andy's suggestion?
14:23:13 <LeeF> q?
14:24:59 <AxelPolleres> Lee: on the protocol level, we have only two overall failures "it's your fault" or "it's my fault" ... more detailed information typically not in HTTP, but in a (rather human readable) messagein the payload of the response.
14:25:47 <AxelPolleres> LeeF: let's leave it to success failure, but we could give some recommendations on how to specify errors in more detail
14:26:17 <AxelPolleres> Paul: I'll do it in a day or do, or otherwise keep it in mind. 
14:26:30 <AxelPolleres> subtopic: service description
14:26:49 <AxelPolleres> LeeF: We have a review from Birte. 
14:26:23 <bglimm> I reviewed it
14:26:30 <bglimm> it's ready I would say
14:26:51 <LeeF> review from birte:
14:27:40 <AxelPolleres> ... one issue which is stil discussed on the mailinglist concerning naming.
14:27:47 <LeeF> PROPOSED: Publish SPARQL 1.1 Service Description as Working Draft
14:27:48 <AxelPolleres> ... but we should be ready to publish.
14:27:50 <ivan> +1
14:27:51 <bglimm> +1
14:27:53 <AxelPolleres> +1
14:27:57 <chimezie> +1
14:27:57 <OlivierCorby> +1
14:28:08 <LeeF> RESOLVED: Publish SPARQL 1.1 Service Description as Working Draft
14:28:30 <AxelPolleres> subtopic: http-update
14:28:39 <AxelPolleres> Lee: not discussed last week.
14:28:41 <chimezie> i don't think we did
14:28:57 <chimezie> I need feedback about the updates
14:29:03 <chimezie> regarding Kjetl's comments
14:29:10 <chimezie> primarily
14:29:07 <AxelPolleres> Lee: chime, is it good to be published?
14:29:28 <AxelPolleres> ... we need a reviewer.
14:29:53 <chimezie>
14:30:06 <chimezie> was my overview of the updates and there was some more back and forth in the thread
14:30:27 <AxelPolleres> ... open, rewording for ISSUE-49
14:31:16 <chimezie> I also need to incorporate text regarding fragments in URIs and Base URI resolution also discussed in other threads
14:31:22 <chimezie> but that was a less contenious issue IMHO
14:31:23 <AxelPolleres> ... reviewer should check the document with respect to the latest changes in response to that mail-thread.
14:31:31 <kasei> i can look over it
14:31:48 <chimezie> I will work the changes into the editor's draft 
14:31:53 <LeeF> ACTION: Greg to review HTTP Uniform Protocol for Managing RDF Graphs
14:31:53 <trackbot> Created ACTION-235 - Review HTTP Uniform Protocol for Managing RDF Graphs [on Gregory Williams - due 2010-05-18].
14:32:10 <chimezie> yes
14:32:28 <AxelPolleres> Lee: Chime, you want to include changes for this publication still?
14:32:28 <chimezie> okay
14:32:34 <AxelPolleres> Chime: yes.
14:32:47 <AxelPolleres> subtopic: Entailment
14:32:50 <bglimm> Ent. reg. is ready for review
14:33:05 <bglimm> from my point it's in a good state
14:33:08 <AxelPolleres> Lee: no reviewer yet.
14:33:26 <bglimm> Peter Patel Schneider reviewed it
14:33:46 <bglimm> he mainly looked at the OWL part
14:34:24 <AxelPolleres> ivan: I can do a review, not sure that's the best, I was quite involved.
14:34:36 <LeeF> ACTION: Ivan to review SPARQL 1.1 Entailment document for WD publication readiness
14:34:36 <trackbot> Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - Ivan
14:34:36 <trackbot> Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. ivan, imikhail)
14:34:39 <AxelPolleres> ... will go through it tomorrow.
14:34:46 <LeeF> ACTION: ivan to review SPARQL 1.1 Entailment document for WD publication readiness
14:34:46 <trackbot> Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - ivan
14:34:46 <trackbot> Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. ivan, imikhail)
14:34:58 <LeeF> ACTION: ivan herman to review SPARQL 1.1 Entailment document for WD publication readiness
14:34:58 <trackbot> Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - ivan
14:34:58 <trackbot> Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. ivan, imikhail)
14:35:01 <LeeF> ACTION: herman to review SPARQL 1.1 Entailment document for WD publication readiness
14:35:01 <trackbot> Created ACTION-236 - Review SPARQL 1.1 Entailment document for WD publication readiness [on Ivan Herman - due 2010-05-18].
14:35:35 <AxelPolleres> subtopic: federated query
14:35:57 <AxelPolleres> Lee: some open questions still
14:36:20 <ivan> q+
14:36:22 <AxelPolleres> ... will clarify with Eric, we hold off from publishing right now.
14:36:28 <LeeF> ack ivan
14:37:34 <AxelPolleres> Lee: group thinks that fed query SERVICE should be optional. but BINDINGS is something maybe more important for query.
14:37:54 <AxelPolleres> ... I had assumed that it will be a separate document.
14:38:01 <AxelPolleres> q+
14:38:34 <LeeF> ack AxelPolleres
14:38:53 <AndyS> A brutal C&P and we could add to query doc as an appendix for now.
14:40:28 <LeeF> straw poll: federated query as own doucment or in query document
14:40:36 <pgearon> +1 for query
14:40:40 <chimezie> +1 own document
14:40:41 <kasei> 0
14:40:42 <AxelPolleres> Axel: remember we said that we should publish for now as own document, but could later include it (since all queries may be refused)
14:40:44 <bglimm> +1 own
14:40:44 <AndyS> 0 don't mind
14:40:51 <OlivierCorby> 0
14:40:56 <AlexPassant> 0
14:40:58 <LeeF> +1 own
14:41:01 <ivan> +0.5 for query
14:41:25 <AxelPolleres> 0 separate for now and include later (like propertypaths), seems fine to me but means extra hurdle of FPWD
14:42:02 <AxelPolleres> Lee: anything more about the document itself?
14:42:03 <LeeF> LeeF: I'll talk to Eric about it and propose approach to publishing fed query this week on mailing list
14:42:10 <LeeF> zakim, next agendum
14:42:10 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Dedicated telecons?" taken up [from LeeF]
14:42:51 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: Talk to Eric also about the discussion re: variables in SERVICE
14:42:57 <AxelPolleres> Lee: will check with Eric about the minutes two weeks ago.
14:43:32 <AxelPolleres> ... regarding variables for SERVICE, some remark should have been added at least to the doc.
14:44:00 <AxelPolleres> topic: issues and schedule 
14:44:07 <LeeF> potential topics:
14:44:10 <LeeF> * update formal model
14:44:19 <AxelPolleres> Lee: we collect topics and organis dedicated telconfs.
14:44:27 <LeeF> * property paths open questions (duplicates, cycles, negated paths)
14:44:37 <LeeF> * building test cases
14:45:45 <AxelPolleres> * Dminus entailment (probably this is a minor/time allowed one)
14:46:07 <bglimm> D Entailment without RDFS entailments
14:46:26 <bglimm> call
14:46:39 <bglimm> but muted (sitting in a loud hotel lobby)
14:47:05 <LeeF> Who would try to attend a dedicated TC on an update formal model?
14:47:08 <pgearon> +1
14:47:09 <AxelPolleres> +1
14:47:11 <LeeF> +1
14:47:13 <AndyS> +1
14:47:48 <LeeF> Who would try to attend a dedicated TC on property paths open issues?
14:47:57 <ivan> +1
14:47:59 <LeeF> +1
14:47:59 <kasei> +1
14:47:59 <pgearon> +1
14:48:01 <OlivierCorby> +1
14:48:01 <AndyS> +1
14:48:05 <AlexPassant> +1
14:48:05 <AxelPolleres> +1
14:48:07 <bglimm> +1 
14:48:15 <chimezie> 0.5 (not certain)
14:48:41 <LeeF> Who would try to attend a dedicated TC for building out test cases?
14:48:44 <LeeF> +1
14:48:45 <AxelPolleres> +1
14:48:46 <kasei> +1 time permitting
14:48:48 <AndyS> +1
14:48:48 <bglimm> +1
14:48:57 <OlivierCorby> +1
14:49:09 <AndyS> (but not *doing* all test cases)
14:49:25 <AxelPolleres> LeeF: will try to set up doodle or alike
14:49:55 <LeeF> Who would try to attend a dedicated TC for Dminus entailment?
14:49:57 <ivan> +1
14:49:58 <AxelPolleres> +1
14:49:58 <bglimm> +1
14:50:02 <chimezie> +1
14:50:31 <LeeF> zakim, next agendum
14:50:31 <Zakim> agendum 5. "AOB?" taken up [from LeeF]
14:50:31 <ivan> :-)
14:50:41 <AxelPolleres> topic: AOB
14:51:14 <bglimm> bye
14:51:14 <chimezie> good bye
14:51:17 <Zakim> -bglimm
14:51:18 <ivan> zakim, drop me
14:51:18 <Zakim> Ivan is being disconnected
14:51:18 <Zakim> -Ivan
14:51:19 <pgearon> ciao
14:51:24 <Zakim> -kasei
14:51:26 <Zakim> -OlivierCorby
14:51:27 <Zakim> -Lee_Feigenbaum
14:51:32 <AxelPolleres> Lee: next week, we will finish WD's conversation and other  issues arising on the mailinglist. adjourned.
14:51:35 <Zakim> -AndyS
14:51:38 <Zakim> -pgearon
14:51:47 <AxelPolleres> rrsagent, make records public
14:52:02 <AxelPolleres> regrets: Matthew Perry
14:52:45 <AxelPolleres> chair: Lee Feigenbaum
14:53:01 <AxelPolleres> rrsagent, make records public