Chatlog 2009-03-17

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<LeeF> Present: SteveH, LukeWM, john-l, AndyS, EricP, LeeF, SimonS, IvanH, Souri, SSchenk1, ywang4, iv_an_ru, Chimezie_Ogbuji, Orri, DaveNewman, kjetil, kasei, Alex
13:30:43 <LeeF>  Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2009-03-17
13:31:27 <LeeF>  Regrets: Axel, Davide, Michele
13:31:42 <LeeF>  Chair: LeeF
13:32:01 <LeeF> Scribenick: john-l
13:58:09 <Zakim> SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has now started
13:58:16 <Zakim> +??P12
13:58:19 <AndyS> But is it standard H.323?
13:58:27 <SteveH> Zakim, ??P12 is [Garlik]
13:58:27 <Zakim> +[Garlik]; got it
13:59:17 <Zakim> +john-l
13:59:20 <Zakim> +??P19
13:59:23 <AndyS> zakim, ??P19 is me
13:59:27 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
13:59:29 <Zakim> +Lee_Feigenbaum
13:59:58 <Zakim> +EricP
14:00:02 <LeeF> zakim, Lee_Feigenbaum is me
14:00:02 <Zakim> +LeeF; got it
14:00:10 <Zakim> + +0491768204aaaa
14:00:33 <LeeF> zakim, mute ericP
14:00:33 <Zakim> EricP should now be muted
14:00:50 <ericP> Zakim, unkute me
14:00:50 <Zakim> I don't understand 'unkute me', ericP
14:00:55 <SSchenk1> Zakim, 0491768204aaaa is me
14:00:55 <Zakim> sorry, SSchenk1, I do not recognize a party named '0491768204aaaa'
14:00:57 <ericP> Zakim, unmute me
14:00:59 <Zakim> EricP should no longer be muted
14:01:01 <ivanh> zakim, dial ivan-voip
14:01:01 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
14:01:09 <Zakim> +Ivan
14:01:18 <john-l> Zakim, aaaa is SSchenk1 
14:01:19 <ywang4> ywang4 has joined #sparql
14:01:20 <LeeF> zakim, aaaa is SSchenk1
14:01:25 <Zakim> +Souri
14:01:31 <Zakim> +SSchenk1; got it
14:01:35 <Zakim> sorry, LeeF, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
14:01:41 <Zakim> +ywang4
14:01:42 <kjetil> I will be semi-present on IRC, may call in later
14:02:00 <Souri> Souri has joined #sparql
14:02:32 <LeeF> zakim, who's here?
14:02:33 <Zakim> On the phone I see [Garlik], john-l, AndyS, LeeF, EricP, SSchenk1, ivanh, Souri, ywang4
14:02:34 <Zakim> On IRC I see Souri, ywang4, LukeWM, SteveH, SSchenk1, AndyS, RRSAgent, Zakim, AndyS_, ivanh, sandro, iv_an_ru, LeeF, KjetilK, AlexPassant, john-l, kjetil, trackbot, ericP
14:02:37 <john-l> Scribe: john-l
<LeeF> topic: introductions
14:04:37 <john-l> SSchenk1: I've done work on SPARQL federation, including recent work on the Billion Triple Challenge.
14:04:38 <Zakim> +iv_an_ru
14:04:46 <john-l> ... Also see the recent introduction on the mailing list.
<LeeF> topic: administrivia
14:05:30 <LeeF> -> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-03-10 minutes from last week
14:05:45 <chimezie> chimezie has joined #sparql
14:06:11 <john-l> LeeF: Note that the straw polls in the minutes are not binding in any way.
14:06:15 <ericP> +1
14:06:18 <ivanh> +1
14:06:24 <LeeF> RESOLVED: accept http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-03-10 
14:06:36 <Zakim> +Chimezie_Ogbuji
14:06:38 <Zakim> +??P51
14:06:47 <john-l> LeeF: Nothing from our liasons, correct?
14:06:51 <LeeF> zakim, ??P51 is Orri
14:06:51 <Zakim> +Orri; got it
14:07:55 <ivanh> zakim, mute me
14:07:55 <Zakim> Ivan should now be muted
14:08:25 <LeeF> topic: Negation
<LeeF> summary: initial straw poll gives (+/0/-): 10/4/-1
14:07:59 <john-l> LeeF: To review, we just want to get the basics of each feature out there, without too much discussion of syntax details in these meetings.
14:08:14 <john-l> ... Discussion should focus on triage.
14:08:24 <john-l> LeeF: First up, Negation.  Chime?
14:08:28 <chimezie> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Feature:Negation
14:08:54 <john-l> chimezie: This feature supports testing when a pattern does not match the active graph.
14:09:12 <john-l> ... We currently do this with OPTIONAL and a bound test.
14:09:16 <SteveH> q+ to talk about !ASK
14:09:25 <ivanh> q+
14:09:30 <john-l> ... But we want to be able to test directly whether a pattern is not matched.
14:09:44 <ericP> +1 to intuitive
14:09:48 <LeeF> q+ to note personal pros & cons
14:09:51 <john-l> ... It would be more intuitive as a first-class operator in the language.
14:10:05 <john-l> ... Examples of different syntax are in the Wiki.
14:10:22 <ericP> i implemented unsaid in algae2
14:10:32 <SteveH> q-   chimezie covered what I was going to talk about, I think
14:10:36 <john-l> ... As to use cases, there are a lot of exclusion criteria in health care informatics queries.
14:10:41 <ericP> (had a different spelling, though, something like "notfound" iirc)
14:10:43 <LeeF> ack steveh
14:10:43 <Zakim> SteveH, you wanted to talk about !ASK
14:11:40 <iv_an_ru> UNSAID become a binary operator right?
14:11:53 <iv_an_ru> {A} UNSAID {B}
14:11:53 <john-l> LeeF: Are there other implementations of Negation out there?
14:12:04 <Souri> Some simplifications on what as parameter for UNSAID: OPTIONAL not needed, UNION not needed, ...
14:12:07 <ivanh> ack ivanh
14:12:07 <AndyS> iv_an_ru: It didn't work like that
14:12:10 <LeeF> q+ Orri
14:12:29 <ericP> q+ i do
14:12:32 <john-l> ivanh: Does anyone remember what was the main issue with this feature from the previous working group?
14:12:33 <chimezie> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/issues#unsaid
14:12:34 <SteveH> IIRC it was not included because of negation as failure concerns
14:12:44 <AndyS> q+
14:12:56 <john-l> LeeF: There may have been an open world/closed world concern.
14:13:01 <LeeF> ack AndyS
14:13:09 <ericP> q- i
14:13:11 <ericP> q- do
14:13:13 <LeeF> q- i
14:13:18 <LeeF> q- do
14:13:19 <john-l> AndyS: We were discussing this before the algebra was introduced, when the issues surrounding failure were more complex.
14:13:28 <chimezie> Zakim, who is here?
14:13:28 <Zakim> On the phone I see [Garlik], john-l, AndyS, LeeF, EricP, SSchenk1, ivanh, Souri, ywang4, iv_an_ru, Chimezie_Ogbuji, Orri
14:13:31 <Zakim> On IRC I see chimezie, Souri, ywang4, LukeWM, SteveH, SimonS, AndyS, RRSAgent, Zakim, AndyS_, ivanh, sandro, iv_an_ru, LeeF, KjetilK, AlexPassant, john-l, kjetil, trackbot, ericP
14:14:04 <ivanh> ack LeeF
14:14:04 <Zakim> LeeF, you wanted to note personal pros & cons
14:14:22 <Zakim> +DaveNewman
14:14:26 <john-l> LeeF: Inevitably, when teaching SPARQL, someone asks for some form of negation.
14:14:50 <AndyS> Another use case: data validation 
14:14:54 <LeeF> ack Orri
14:14:55 <john-l> ... Still, we want to keep the scope of our work small, if possible.
14:15:00 <ericP> q+ to say subselect route is less easy to teach
14:15:28 <LeeF> ericP, but (much?) easier than OPTIONAL+!bound
14:15:30 <john-l> Souri: There are good social web use cases, such as asking about knowing or not knowing certain people.
14:15:37 <LeeF> s/Souri/Orri
14:15:45 <SteveH> ericP, that's a matter of opinion, I think
14:16:08 <Souri> q+
14:16:13 <john-l> ... This has a good mapping to similar SQL concepts.
14:16:16 <ericP> SteveH, i think it's pretty defendable if you take the average joe on the street
14:16:29 <kjetil> Zakim, what is the code?
14:16:29 <Zakim> the conference code is 77277 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), kjetil
14:16:32 <SteveH> ericP, the average joe SPARQL user?
14:16:38 <ericP> there is none
14:16:53 <ericP> q-
14:16:53 <Souri> One of us (Orri and Souri) should change our names!
14:16:54 <Zakim> + +2
14:17:06 <kjetil> Zakim, mute me
14:17:06 <Zakim> sorry, kjetil, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
14:17:24 <LeeF> zakim, +2 is kjetil
14:17:24 <Zakim> +kjetil; got it
14:17:24 <kjetil> Zakim, +2 is me
14:17:25 <Zakim> sorry, kjetil, I do not recognize a party named '+2'
14:17:26 <kjetil> Zakim, mute me
14:17:26 <Zakim> kjetil should now be muted
14:17:30 <LeeF> q?
14:17:31 <dnewman2> dnewman2 has joined #sparql
14:17:38 <LeeF> ack Souri
14:18:18 <john-l> Souri: I approve this feature.  We should focus on keeping this simple, wherever possible.
14:18:57 <john-l> LeeF: Time for a straw poll on negation!
14:19:14 <Souri> +1
14:19:15 <john-l> +1
14:19:16 <SteveH> +1 if a part of subSELECT, -1 otherwise
14:19:16 <kjetil> +0
14:19:17 <LukeWM> 0
14:19:26 <chimezie> +1
14:19:26 <LeeF> zakim, who's here?
14:19:26 <Zakim> On the phone I see [Garlik], john-l, AndyS, LeeF, EricP, SSchenk1, ivanh, Souri, ywang4, iv_an_ru, Chimezie_Ogbuji, Orri, DaveNewman, kjetil (muted)
14:19:29 <Zakim> On IRC I see dnewman2, chimezie, Souri, ywang4, LukeWM, SteveH, SimonS, AndyS, RRSAgent, Zakim, AndyS_, ivanh, sandro, iv_an_ru, LeeF, KjetilK, AlexPassant, john-l, kjetil,
14:19:31 <Zakim> ... trackbot, ericP
14:19:36 <ivanh> +1
14:19:37 <AndyS> +1
14:19:39 <ericP> 0
14:19:40 <dnewman2> +1
14:19:44 <SimonS> +1
14:19:46 <iv_an_ru> 0 if a part of subSELECT, -1 otherwise
14:19:52 <ywang4> +1
14:20:05 <LeeF> Orri: +1
14:20:16 <LeeF> LeeF: 0
14:20:43 <LeeF> topic: Property Paths
<LeeF> summary: initial straw poll gives (+/0/-): 11/3/3
14:20:47 <john-l> LeeF: Now it's Andy's turn to talk about Property Paths.
14:20:49 <AndyS> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Feature:PropertyPaths#Implementation_Experience_in_ARQ
14:21:28 <john-l> AndyS: A property path is a substitute for a property, and has a few additional operators.
14:21:42 <kasei> kasei has joined #sparql
14:21:45 <john-l> ... There are simple ones which are syntactic sugar, and more powerful cases.
14:21:56 <Souri> Souri has joined #sparql
14:22:51 <john-l> ... This does not introduce a new datatype.
14:22:58 <john-l> ... It provides a set of results.
14:23:10 <SteveH> q+
14:23:14 <john-l> ... It indicates whether a path exists, not what that path is.
14:23:45 <LeeF> -> http://esw.w3.org/topic/SPARQL/Extensions/Paths has a bit more info
14:23:55 <chimezie> +q about how much of support for transitivity can be said to be covered by entailment
14:24:04 <chimezie> +q
14:24:17 <john-l> Orri: We allow paths in any expression location, but this is primarily a syntactic difference.
14:24:32 <Zakim> + +1.310.729.aacc
14:24:36 <kasei> Zakim aacc  is me
14:24:54 <LeeF> zakim, aacc is kasei
14:24:54 <Zakim> +kasei; got it
14:25:00 <kasei> Zakim mute me
14:25:03 <john-l> SteveH: Can you say more about the cardinality of the result set?
14:25:26 <john-l> AndyS: ... describes how the variable binding works.
14:25:46 <kasei> Zakim, mute me
14:25:46 <Zakim> kasei should now be muted
14:25:51 <kasei> thanks Lee
14:26:29 <LeeF> q?
14:26:29 <iv_an_ru> I'll vote for PropertyPath syntax for a simple reason: it's easier to implement it once in addition to exixting Virtuoso's transitive subqueries than to explain to beginners how to write that subqueries.
14:26:34 <LeeF> ack SteveH
14:26:34 <ivanh> ack SteveH
14:26:42 <LeeF> ack chimezie
14:26:48 <dnewman2> q+
14:27:17 <john-l> chimezie: What do implementers think about the relationship between property paths and entailment?
14:27:41 <john-l> AndyS: The driving use case is when you want to apply path walking to data when you don't have an inference mechanism.
14:28:10 <LeeF> ack dnewman2
14:28:12 <john-l> ... It can also provide direct answers for certain inference questions.
14:28:53 <john-l> dnewman2: What do you think about an extension to this for ordering the results in a transitive sequence?
14:29:02 <Zakim> + +2
14:29:04 <iv_an_ru> For me, any same-as, inference etc are invisible minor details of path traversal. Say, same-as nodes should not even appear in the resulting path.
14:29:22 <LeeF> zakim, +2 is AlexPassant
14:29:22 <Zakim> +AlexPassant; got it
14:30:00 <john-l> ... The use case I have in mind is doing traceability analysis.
14:30:31 <john-l> ... (A, R, B), (B, R, C), (C, R, D), and I'd like to get back A, B, C, D.
14:30:53 <john-l> AndyS: A reasoner would help you out there.
14:31:07 <john-l> dnewman2: But I won't get the results in path order.
14:32:23 <john-l> LeeF: Use the mailing list!
14:32:40 <john-l> Orri: I've answered this on the mailing list.
14:33:51 <john-l> LeeF: This is not about matching the path itself, but rather providing a feature for traversing a path when querying (that is, indicating whether such a path exists).
14:33:55 <LeeF> q?
14:33:58 <LeeF> ack dnewman2
14:34:00 <AlexPassant> q+ for path and owl:transitivity + ordering 
14:34:02 <LeeF> ack dnewman
14:34:10 <LeeF> ack AlexPassant
14:34:10 <Zakim> AlexPassant, you wanted to discuss path and owl:transitivity + ordering
14:34:16 <dnewman2> q-
14:35:03 <john-l> AlexPassant: How can we maintain ordering when using inference?
14:35:11 <john-l> LeeF: Use the mailing list!
14:35:38 <LeeF> zakim, who's here?
14:35:38 <Zakim> On the phone I see [Garlik], john-l, AndyS, LeeF, EricP, SSchenk1, ivanh, Souri, ywang4, iv_an_ru, Chimezie_Ogbuji, Orri, DaveNewman, kjetil (muted), kasei (muted), AlexPassant
14:35:40 <ivanh> -1 I feel the proper specification for this feature would be too much for this charter...
14:35:40 <SteveH> -1
14:35:41 <Zakim> On IRC I see Souri, kasei, dnewman2, chimezie, ywang4, LukeWM, SteveH, SimonS, AndyS, RRSAgent, Zakim, AndyS_, ivanh, sandro, iv_an_ru, LeeF, KjetilK, AlexPassant, john-l, kjetil,
14:35:42 <john-l> LeeF: Time for a straw poll about property paths.
14:35:42 <dnewman2> +1
14:35:43 <Zakim> ... trackbot, ericP
14:35:45 <john-l> -0
14:35:47 <kjetil> +1
14:35:48 <AlexPassant> +1
14:35:50 <kasei> +1
14:35:50 <chimezie> 0
14:35:58 <LukeWM> +1
14:36:06 <SimonS> +1
14:36:07 <AndyS> +1
14:36:07 <iv_an_ru> +1
14:36:13 <ericP> -1
14:36:20 <Souri> +1 but in simple form only
14:36:26 <LeeF> Orri: +1
14:36:34 <ywang4> +1
14:36:45 <ericP> what about ±0 ?
14:36:53 <LeeF> LeeF: 0
14:37:02 <Souri> What I mean by "simple" is no ordering etc.
<LeeF> topic: path lengths & path-matching variables
<LeeF> summary: initial straw poll gives (+/0/-): 1/6/10
14:37:27 <john-l> LeeF: Next up, path lengths.
14:37:27 <SteveH> URI?
14:37:40 <LeeF> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Feature:PathLength
14:37:43 <iv_an_ru> Souri, I guess that ordering is a separate issue, '*' is The issue :)
14:38:18 <Souri> Souri has joined #sparql
14:38:34 <john-l> AlexPassant: Want to be able to specify how many properties separate two resources.
14:38:55 <john-l> ... Use cases include finding all people who are a certain number of relationships away from others.
14:39:08 <AlexPassant> http://www-sop.inria.fr/edelweiss/software/corese/v2_4_1/manual/next.php
14:39:09 <john-l> ... Implementation links should be on the Wiki.
14:39:27 <john-l> LeeF: Any other implementations?
14:39:49 <john-l> ???: These features could be subsumed by transitive subquery.
14:39:54 <john-l> s/???/Orri/
14:39:55 <LeeF> q?
14:39:59 <iv_an_ru> s/???/Orri
14:40:50 <LeeF> The way I see it from the wiki page, this is about binding paths to the variables, followed by calculating the length of that matched path
14:41:04 <Souri> q+
14:41:16 <LeeF> ack Souri
14:41:17 <iv_an_ru> I don't like an extra datatype that can not be even serialized for debugging
14:42:18 <AlexPassant> fyi, syntax used in the related wiki page is the Corese one, but I don't have a strong opinion on which syntax must be used for that feature 
14:42:18 <john-l> Souri: There could be multiple paths between nodes, and the issue is complicated by inference, which adds triples.
14:42:44 <chimezie> We need to be careful about the fine line between incremental path-based traversal and more general (and more complex) graph-theoretic operators, such as path lenths, shortest paths, transitive closures, etc..
14:42:49 <SteveH> it introduces binding ?vars
14:42:53 <SteveH> in FILTERs
14:43:03 <ericP> i think it's expensive, but that it be well-defined over anything with a (virtual) graph representation
14:43:22 <AndyS> SteveH - where abouts?
14:43:26 <LeeF> q?
14:43:50 <LeeF> zakim, who's here?
14:43:50 <Zakim> On the phone I see [Garlik], john-l, AndyS, LeeF, EricP, SSchenk1, ivanh, Souri, ywang4, iv_an_ru, Chimezie_Ogbuji, Orri, DaveNewman, kjetil (muted), kasei (muted), AlexPassant
14:43:51 <SteveH> AndyS, ah, no, I misread
14:43:54 <Zakim> On IRC I see Souri, kasei, dnewman2, chimezie, ywang4, LukeWM, SteveH, SimonS, AndyS, RRSAgent, Zakim, AndyS_, ivanh, sandro, iv_an_ru, LeeF, KjetilK, AlexPassant, john-l, kjetil,
14:43:54 <john-l> LeeF: Time for a straw poll!
14:43:54 <SteveH> -1
14:43:55 <chimezie> -1
14:43:55 <ericP> -1 (sorry, just want a small and reallistic scope)
14:43:55 <ivanh> -1
14:43:56 <Zakim> ... trackbot, ericP
14:43:56 <LukeWM> -1
14:43:56 <Souri> -1
14:43:57 <john-l> -0
14:43:57 <kasei> -1
14:43:57 <AndyS> -1 to introducing a new datatype
14:43:57 <AlexPassant> +1
14:44:00 <dnewman2> ericP: 0
14:44:01 <iv_an_ru> -1
14:44:02 <kjetil> 0 if propertypaths is done, +1 otherwise
14:44:02 <SimonS> 0
14:44:18 <LeeF> -1
14:44:37 <LeeF> Orri: 0 (very useful but may be difficult to get consensus)
14:44:49 <ywang4> 0
14:45:01 <ywang4> sorry the line was not clear enough..
14:45:35 <LeeF> topic: Aggregates
<LeeF> summary: initial straw poll gives (+/0/-): 16/1/0
14:45:37 <LeeF> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Feature:AggregateFunctions
14:45:37 <john-l> LeeF: Next up: aggregates.
14:46:02 <john-l> ... Take a whole bunch of bindings and group them together.  This is common in SQL.
14:46:11 <john-l> ... Either one big group or subgroups.
14:46:56 <Souri> +1 :-) I had proposed COUNT in SPARQL 1
14:47:10 <john-l> ... This is a very common request when explaining SPARQL.
14:47:30 <john-l> ... Several implementations listed on the Wiki.
14:47:43 <john-l> ... Postponed by SPARQL 2008 due to lack of implementation experience.
14:48:39 <john-l> SteveH: Answering aggregate questions is hard for a couple other reasons, such as dealing with OWL and *what* is being counted.
14:49:04 <ericP> emphatically, we are a graph language
14:49:08 <john-l> LeeF: Do we collapse counts for owl:sameAs?
14:49:13 <LeeF> q?
14:49:16 <iv_an_ru> IMHO, aggregates are unavoidable, the only question is how the end-point should describe user-defined aggregates in its capabilities ;)
14:49:33 <Souri> +q
14:49:44 <john-l> Orri: Aggregates are a must-have.
14:50:03 <kasei> +q to ask about numeric types and agregates
14:50:18 <john-l> ... We have a partial implementation that deals with owl:sameAs.
14:50:19 <LeeF> ack Souri
14:50:48 <chimezie> +q to ask if aggregate champions envision extending SELECT expressions only with aggregate functions or more general expressions
14:50:50 <kasei> Zakim, unmute me
14:50:55 <Zakim> kasei should no longer be muted
14:50:56 <LeeF> ack kasei
14:50:57 <iv_an_ru> There's need in handwritten group by in some cases, but not so often.
14:50:59 <Zakim> kasei, you wanted to ask about numeric types and agregates
14:51:22 <AndyS> q+ to reply to Greg
14:51:31 <Souri> How about HAVING to go with GROUP BY?
14:51:34 <john-l> kasei: How do you deal with datatype mismatch?
14:51:52 <LeeF> ack AndyS
14:51:52 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to reply to Greg
14:52:02 <john-l> Several implementators indicate that they skip non-numbers.
14:52:30 <kasei> Zakim, mute me
14:52:30 <Zakim> kasei should now be muted
14:52:35 <LeeF> ack chimezie
14:52:35 <Zakim> chimezie, you wanted to ask if aggregate champions envision extending SELECT expressions only with aggregate functions or more general expressions
14:52:45 <iv_an_ru> more general
14:52:46 <SteveH> max(xsd:decimal(?x)) is possible
14:53:38 <john-l> LeeF: Aggregate expressions should go with more general scalar expressions.
14:53:43 <LeeF> q?
14:54:15 <john-l> LeeF: Any substantial concerns about aggregates?
14:54:39 <SteveH> it has a strong relation to subSELECTs in the SQL world
14:54:41 <john-l> chimezie: We just need to walk carefully around the open world basis.
14:54:50 <SteveH> and things like CONCAT() coupld be complex in SPARQL
14:55:04 <LeeF> zakim, who's here?
14:55:04 <Zakim> On the phone I see [Garlik], john-l, AndyS, LeeF, EricP, SSchenk1, ivanh, Souri, ywang4, iv_an_ru, Chimezie_Ogbuji, Orri, DaveNewman, kjetil (muted), kasei (muted), AlexPassant
14:55:04 <kasei> +1
14:55:06 <chimezie> +1
14:55:07 <ericP> 0
14:55:07 <LukeWM> +1
14:55:07 <Zakim> On IRC I see Souri, kasei, dnewman2, chimezie, ywang4, LukeWM, SteveH, SimonS, AndyS, RRSAgent, Zakim, AndyS_, ivanh, sandro, iv_an_ru, LeeF, KjetilK, AlexPassant, john-l, kjetil,
14:55:08 <SteveH> +1
14:55:08 <AndyS> +1
14:55:08 <john-l> LeeF: Straw poll time!
14:55:09 <ywang4> +1
14:55:09 <iv_an_ru> +1
14:55:09 <ivanh> +1 with the mild worry about the owl related issues
14:55:09 <Zakim> ... trackbot, ericP
14:55:09 <kjetil> +1
14:55:10 <dnewman2> +1
14:55:12 <john-l> +1
14:55:15 <SimonS> +1 think this is essential
14:55:15 <LeeF> +1
14:55:18 <Souri> +1
14:55:20 <AlexPassant> +1
14:55:24 <LeeF> Orri: +1
14:55:48 <iv_an_ru> I'd cheat and place one more +1 
<LeeF> topic: Update
<LeeF> summary: initial straw poll gives (+/0/-): 13/2/2
14:56:28 <john-l> LeeF: Talk about UPDATE?
14:56:28 <iv_an_ru> +1 for update
14:56:28 <SteveH> q+
14:56:32 <ywang4> +1
14:56:47 <ivanh> ack SteveH
14:56:48 <LeeF> ack SteveH
14:56:57 <ericP> what's wrong with yesterda?
14:57:00 <ericP> y
14:57:03 <john-l> SteveH: We want this... tomorrow.
14:57:21 <ywang4> update is essential anyway
14:57:30 <SteveH> but, I do /not/ want UPDATE in SPARQL, in some other langauge (forgot to say that)
14:57:43 <john-l> LeeF: A separate SPARQL update language is implemented in a number of implementations.
14:57:50 <AndyS> +1 to separate
14:57:53 <john-l> ... There exists a draft specification for this.
14:57:57 <SteveH> we have UPDATE feature, with a syntax that I wont defend
14:57:59 <AndyS> http://www.w3.org/Submission/2008/SUBM-SPARQL-Update-20080715/
14:58:14 <john-l> ... This can exist in a separate recommendation.
14:58:48 <ivanh> q+
14:58:53 <LeeF> ack ivanh
14:59:05 <SteveH> q+ to answer
14:59:09 <john-l> ivanh: Would this be a separate recommendation?
14:59:27 <kjetil> q+
14:59:31 <john-l> SteveH: I want to see it as a separate *language*.
14:59:43 <iv_an_ru> It may be enough to warn that some keywords are "reserved" from update language.
15:00:06 <john-l> ... We need to consider security and other issues which really indicate that it should be a separate language.
15:00:31 <chimezie> +q 
15:00:38 <AndyS> (that was Andy - sorry)
15:00:39 <LeeF> ack SteveH
15:00:39 <Zakim> SteveH, you wanted to answer
15:00:40 <john-l> ... If you only support query, then you should be said to support SPARQL.
15:01:01 <LeeF> ack kjetil
15:01:01 <ivanh> q+
15:01:05 <Souri> I'd prefer SPARUL to be a separate spec.
15:01:05 <ericP> motivated by andy's argument for sparql-compliance if you only do query
15:01:34 <john-l> kjetil: I support separating out the two components.
15:01:39 <ericP> i'm not sure how the grammar will work
15:01:52 <LeeF> q?
15:01:53 <LeeF> ack chimezie
15:01:54 <kjetil> Zakim, mute me
15:01:54 <Zakim> kjetil should now be muted
15:02:05 <iv_an_ru> ericP, read-only sparql endpoint will just report "unauthorised" to all update requests :)
15:02:06 <ericP> LeeF, i have to go. put me down for +1 on update
15:02:23 <john-l> chimezie: Updates could go to the protocol level.
15:02:39 <LeeF> ack ivanh
15:02:39 <john-l> ... The protocol has some hooks that could allow modification.
15:02:39 <SteveH> +1 to whoever just spoke, we do that
15:02:57 <ywang4> +1 again
15:02:58 <Zakim> -EricP
15:03:07 <ywang4> and gotta to leave, thanks guys
15:03:08 <AndyS> EricP - could still have one grammar, two entry points (easier impl for me at least)l
15:03:43 <SimonS> I have to leave. My oppinion is:
15:03:43 <kasei> service descriptions might help sort out endpoints that support update if they end up as two different different components
15:03:47 <SimonS> -1 I think this important, but security is essential. That is quite involved, so better separate it.
15:03:55 <chimezie> i.e., the HTTP verbs cover some of the capabilities that are being proposed as part of the current update language
15:04:22 <LeeF> zakim, who's here?
15:04:24 <LukeWM> +1
15:04:26 <john-l> LeeF: Final straw poll!
15:04:29 <AndyS> Security matters a lot here IMHO
15:04:33 <SteveH> +1
15:04:35 <ivanh> +1 as a separate doc and with a large amount of scare
15:04:36 <kasei> +1
15:04:36 <kjetil> +1 (but separate Rec, this group should do it)
15:04:37 <john-l> +0
15:04:45 <SimonS> SimonS has left #sparql
15:04:49 <Souri> -1, if separated +1
15:04:50 <chimezie> -1 (in its current form)
15:04:55 <SteveH> +1 (IFF it's a seperate language) [correction]
15:04:58 <Zakim> -SSchenk1
15:05:00 <Zakim> On the phone I see [Garlik], john-l, AndyS, LeeF, ivanh, Souri, ywang4, iv_an_ru, Chimezie_Ogbuji, Orri, DaveNewman, kjetil (muted), kasei (muted), AlexPassant
15:05:07 <LeeF> Orri: +1 (security might be implementation-specific)
15:05:12 <AlexPassant> +1 to get an update mechanism, no strong opinion re. included in SPARQL or related doc
15:05:15 <dnewman2> +1
15:05:19 <LeeF> 0
15:05:28 <AndyS> +1 and pref seperate spec
15:05:34 <Zakim> On IRC I see Souri, kasei, dnewman2, chimezie, ywang4, LukeWM, SteveH, AndyS, RRSAgent, Zakim, AndyS_, ivanh, sandro, iv_an_ru, LeeF, KjetilK, AlexPassant, john-l, kjetil, trackbot,
15:05:39 <Zakim> ... ericP
15:06:19 <LeeF> Thanks very much to john-l for scribing!
15:06:25 <Zakim> -Chimezie_Ogbuji
15:06:27 <Zakim> -DaveNewman
15:06:29 <Zakim> -Orri
15:06:31 <Zakim> -ywang4
15:06:32 <LeeF> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:06:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/17-sparql-minutes.html LeeF
15:06:33 <Zakim> -Souri
15:06:35 <Zakim> -[Garlik]
15:06:36 <LeeF> RRSAgent, make logs world
15:06:39 <Zakim> -LeeF
15:06:41 <Zakim> -kjetil
15:06:42 <john-l> LeeF: Do you need me to do anything else?
15:06:43 <Zakim> -iv_an_ru
15:06:45 <Zakim> -Ivan
15:06:47 <Zakim> -AlexPassant
15:06:47 <LeeF> john-l, nope I'll take it from here
15:06:52 <john-l> LeeF: Cool, thanks!
15:06:59 <Zakim> -kasei
15:07:01 <Zakim> -john-l
15:07:09 <Zakim> -AndyS
15:07:13 <Zakim> SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has ended
15:07:15 <Zakim> Attendees were [Garlik], john-l, AndyS, EricP, LeeF, +0491768204aaaa, ivanh, Souri, SSchenk1, ywang4, iv_an_ru, Chimezie_Ogbuji, Orri, DaveNewman, kjetil, +1.310.729.aacc, kasei,
15:07:18 <Zakim> ... AlexPassant
15:08:13 <kasei> kasei has left #sparql
15:10:54 <SteveH_> SteveH_ has joined #sparql
15:11:03 <LukeWM_> LukeWM_ has joined #sparql
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