Chatlog 2011-10-04

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13:55:50 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #sparql
13:55:50 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/10/04-sparql-irc
13:55:52 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
13:55:52 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #sparql
13:55:54 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 77277
13:55:54 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes
13:55:55 <trackbot> Meeting: SPARQL Working Group Teleconference
13:55:55 <trackbot> Date: 04 October 2011
13:55:56 <LeeF> zakim, this will be SPARQL 
13:55:56 <Zakim> ok, LeeF; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes
13:56:03 <LeeF> Chair: AxelPolleres
13:56:26 <LeeF> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2011OctDec/0010.html
13:56:39 <Zakim> SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has now started
13:56:45 <Zakim> +??P2
13:56:55 <NickH> zakim, ??P2 is me
13:56:55 <Zakim> +NickH; got it
13:57:04 <NickH> zakim, mute me
13:57:04 <Zakim> sorry, NickH, muting is not permitted when only one person is present
13:57:09 <NickH> heh
13:57:14 <kasei> ha
13:57:29 <cbuilara> cbuilara has joined #sparql
13:57:29 <LeeF> why in the world would that be?
13:57:30 <Zakim> +kasei
13:57:36 <NickH> zakim, mute me
13:57:36 <Zakim> NickH should now be muted
13:58:10 <LeeF> Regrets: SteveH, Chimezie
13:59:22 <Zakim> +??P4
13:59:31 <cbuilara> zakim, ??P4 is me
13:59:31 <Zakim> +cbuilara; got it
13:59:42 <Zakim> + +1.781.899.aaaa
13:59:51 <sandro> zakim, aaaa is Sandro
13:59:51 <Zakim> +Sandro; got it
13:59:57 <Zakim> +??P19
14:00:04 <Zakim> +Bernard
14:00:07 <AndyS> zakim, ??P19 is me
14:00:07 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
14:00:10 <MattPerry> MattPerry has joined #sparql
14:00:18 <AndyS> kasei - not had a chance yet.
14:00:58 <Zakim> + +1.603.897.aabb
14:00:58 <kasei> AndyS: ok. i'll try to work through it in more depth
14:01:11 <MattPerry> zakim, aabb is me
14:01:11 <Zakim> +MattPerry; got it
14:01:40 <Zakim> + +1.540.841.aacc
14:02:04 <pgearon> Zakim, aacc is me
14:02:07 <Zakim> +pgearon; got it
14:03:25 <Zakim> + +1.617.553.aadd
14:03:29 <LeeF> zakim, aadd is me
14:03:29 <Zakim> +LeeF; got it
14:03:55 <Zakim> +??P29
14:04:16 <LeeF> zakim, who's on the phone?
14:04:16 <Zakim> On the phone I see NickH (muted), kasei, cbuilara, Sandro, AndyS, Bernard, MattPerry, pgearon, LeeF, ??P29
14:04:39 <LeeF> zakim, ??P29 is AxelPolleres
14:04:48 <Zakim> +AxelPolleres; got it
14:05:11 <LeeF> zakim, Bernard is Olivier
14:05:11 <Zakim> +Olivier; got it
14:05:13 <bglimm> bglimm has joined #sparql
14:05:50 <LeeF> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2011OctDec/0010.html
14:06:18 <kasei> I can
14:06:23 <LeeF> scribenick: kasei
14:06:27 <LeeF> topic: admin
14:06:39 <Zakim> + +49.731.502.aaee
14:06:40 <LeeF> PROPOSED: Approve minutes from http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2011-09-27
14:06:56 <bglimm> Zakim, +49.731.502.aaee is me
14:06:56 <Zakim> +bglimm; got it
14:07:00 <bglimm> Zakim, mute me
14:07:00 <Zakim> bglimm should now be muted
14:07:08 <LeeF> RESOLVED: Approve minutes from http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2011-09-27
14:07:36 <LeeF> Next regular meeting: 2011-10-11 @ 15:00 UK / 10:00 EST (scribe: Sandro) 
14:07:45 <Olivier> regrets for next week
14:07:48 <AxelPolleres> AxelPolleres has joined #sparql
14:07:53 <LeeF> next week regrets: axel & olivier
14:08:17 <kasei> topic: liaison with RDF WG
14:08:25 <Olivier> Olivier has joined #sparql
14:08:35 <kasei> AndyS: not much progress... named graphs discussions continue.
14:08:59 <kasei> ... been waiting on concensus on discussion on RDF Datasets
14:09:11 <kasei> ... until entire framework is resolved, wouldn't want to make changes.
14:09:29 <kasei> ... we're not at a point yet where we have to decide.
14:09:37 <kasei> LeeF: I don't think the current wording is a problem.
14:09:48 <kasei> ... hasn't caused problems with implementors.
14:10:07 <LeeF> topic: string functions
14:10:28 <kasei> LeeF: continuing dicussion from Jeen's comment on motivation for string functions
14:10:36 <kasei> ... 1- vs. 0-indexed functions
14:10:47 <kasei> ... trying to decide why we don't have an index function
14:11:01 <kasei> ... substring-before and substring-after handle same use cases
14:11:13 <kasei> ... Andy proposed adding substring-before, substring-after, and replace functions.
14:11:21 <kasei> ... some support for that.
14:11:35 <kasei> ... questions: some other functions from RIF. should we include them?
14:11:48 <kasei> ... also from greg regarding unicode.
14:11:56 <AndyS> q+ to ask Axel about fn:string-join
14:12:31 <LeeF> kasei: if we ground these functions in the XSD definitions of substring before and substring after, i looked at the definition and wasn't sure i could implement them
14:12:42 <AndyS> q+ to say without "collation" as with other functions.
14:12:45 <LeeF> ... seemed like it required deep understanding of lots of specs to do the pattern matching properly
14:13:05 <LeeF> AndyS: We could add without the versions with collation
14:13:11 <kasei> AndyS: i think we'd add them without the collation. we haven't adopted collation forms of other functions in the past.
14:13:37 <kasei> ... implemented in ~3 lines of java. nothing unusual going on.
14:13:51 <AxelPolleres> fine without collation (ie, standard codepoint collation always)?
14:14:29 <kasei> AxelPolleres: those functions have two variants. with and without collation.
14:14:38 <kasei> ... proposal here is to adopt the non-collation versions?
14:14:43 <kasei> AndyS: yes
14:15:11 <AndyS> ack me
14:15:11 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to ask Axel about fn:string-join and to say without "collation" as with other functions.
14:15:13 <kasei> LeeF: other functions: string-join, some stuff about IRIs
14:15:25 <kasei> AxelPolleres: IRI to URI
14:15:46 <kasei> AndyS: why do you want to add str-join? what's the difference over what we've already got?
14:15:54 <kasei> AxelPolleres: I had overlooked it.
14:16:07 <kasei> AxelPolleres: str-join isn't the same as concat. adding a separator.
14:16:29 <kasei> ... we didn't have sequences in RIF. arbitrary number of parameters with a separator.
14:16:38 <kasei> AndyS: you can write the same thing with concat.
14:16:49 <kasei> ... arbitrary length list is really fixed by syntax
14:17:22 <Zakim> -cbuilara
14:17:24 <kasei> LeeF: what about the other functions?
14:17:47 <kasei> AxelPolleres: should go through them since we have them in RIF.
14:18:47 <LeeF> LeeF: what is the IRI to URI function all about?
14:18:55 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: opeates on strings and converts from URIs to IRIs
14:18:57 <kasei> ah. fixed. thanks LeeF.
14:19:03 <Zakim> +??P10
14:19:15 <AndyS> And it's not reversible?  No uri to iri function in RIF?
14:19:16 <cbuilara_> cbuilara_ has joined #sparql
14:19:40 <kasei> AxelPolleres: third function is escape-html-uri
14:19:51 <kasei> ... comes from xpath/xquery functions.
14:20:06 <kasei> ... escapes non-printable characters
14:20:20 <kasei> ... for use in attribute values.
14:20:26 <Zakim> -??P10
14:20:40 <kasei> LeeF: we didn't set out trying to match RIF functions. haven't heard from anybody asking for these functions.
14:20:44 <kasei> ... inclined to leave them out.
14:20:46 <Zakim> +??P10
14:20:49 <cbuilara_> zakim, ??P10 is me
14:20:49 <Zakim> +cbuilara_; got it
14:20:59 <kasei> AxelPolleres: that's fine.
14:21:24 <kasei> AndyS: seems troublesome to have one-way functions.
14:21:33 <kasei> ... string-join isn't the same as the F&O function.
14:21:39 <kasei> ... does RIF define it to be the same as F&O?
14:22:25 <kasei> AxelPolleres: defines in terms of string-join by converting args (minus the separator) to a sequence
14:22:43 <Zakim> -cbuilara_
14:22:46 <kasei> LeeF: I'm not hearing anybody advocating for it.
14:22:50 <LeeF> PROPOSED: Include STRBEFORE, STRAFTER, and REPLACE in SPARQL 1.1 Query (only the versions without collations)
14:23:07 <kasei> q+
14:23:11 <LeeF> ack kasei
14:23:36 <LeeF> kasei: should we discuss whether this works with language literals and datatype literals?
14:24:20 <LeeF> see http://www.w3.org/TR/sparql11-query/#func-starts
14:24:32 <kasei> AndyS: roughly, if the arguments are the same, you can match them. otherwise you can't.
14:25:11 <kasei> AndyS: does STR() implicitly on the args.
14:25:17 <kasei> LeeF: they return strings, though.
14:25:38 <kasei> AndyS: wold have to think about it. either it's a plain string, or it's the same as the input string.
14:25:58 <kasei> LeeF: inclination would be to have the result be the same as the input.
14:26:35 <AndyS> and consistency with CONTAINS
14:26:38 <Zakim> +??P10
14:26:44 <cbuilara_> zakim, ??P10 is me
14:26:44 <Zakim> +cbuilara_; got it
14:27:05 <kasei> LeeF: what does SUBSTR do? returns language tags?
14:27:13 <kasei> AndyS: yes, returns same form as principle argument.
14:27:19 <kasei> LeeF: so should do the same thing as SUBSTR.
14:28:13 <kasei> +1
14:28:18 <AxelPolleres> +1
14:28:22 <LeeF> (to the proposal above)
14:28:34 <LeeF> RESOLVED: Include STRBEFORE, STRAFTER, and REPLACE in SPARQL 1.1 Query (only the versions without collations)
14:29:03 <kasei> AndyS: will somebody do the tests?
14:29:04 <AndyS> ACTION AndyS Draft text for STRBEFORE, STRAFTER, and REPLACE
14:29:04 <trackbot> Created ACTION-537 - Draft text for STRBEFORE, STRAFTER, and REPLACE [on Andy Seaborne - due 2011-10-11].
14:29:32 <kasei> I can do the tests
14:29:45 <LeeF> ACTION: greg to write tests for STRBEFORE, STRAFTER, and REPLACE
14:29:45 <trackbot> Created ACTION-538 - Write tests for STRBEFORE, STRAFTER, and REPLACE [on Gregory Williams - due 2011-10-11].
14:30:16 <kasei> LeeF: this should be enough to reply to Jeen?
14:30:23 <kasei> AndyS: for the first part. haven't dealt with hash functions yet.
14:30:45 <kasei> LeeF: based on last week's discussion, we have concensus on keeping string functions 1-indexed.
14:31:11 <kasei> topic: hash functions
14:31:34 <LeeF> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2011JulSep/0314.html
14:31:37 <kasei> LeeF: Andy listed 3 proposals in email.
14:31:57 <LeeF> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2011JulSep/0320.html
14:32:32 <kasei> ... proposal 5 in that link was based on what xml digital signature group includes.
14:32:48 <kasei> ... discussion on whether MD5 should be included due to security concerns.
14:32:57 <kasei> sandro: xml dig sig group does not include MD5
14:33:15 <AndyS> Who actively supports any SHA2-isms?
14:33:30 <sandro> "who" in what sense?
14:33:39 <kasei> LeeF: variables on proposals being whether we include MD5, whether we include 3 variants of SHA2
14:33:41 <AndyS> "who" = WG member
14:34:06 <kasei> ... proposal 5 is what's in the draft now but without SHA-224(?)
14:34:17 <sandro> +1 SHA2
14:34:29 <pgearon> +q
14:34:48 <LeeF> ack pgearon
14:35:15 <kasei> pgearon: agree MD5 isn't secure, but run into use cases with legacy mysql code using MD5. convenient to be able to talk to those systems.
14:35:28 <kasei> ... would like to support inclusion of MD5
14:35:37 <MattPerry> Oracle Database supports MD4, MD5 and SHA1
14:36:01 <kasei> sandro: should include some note about MD5 not being secure w.r.t. cryptography, but included for non-crypto uses.
14:36:28 <kasei> LeeF: easiest proposal is to remove SHA224. small change, addresses comment, mesh well with existing practice.
14:36:31 <AndyS> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MD5#Security "severe compromised" (for security)
14:36:59 <LeeF> PROPOSED: Remove SHA224 from SPARQL 1.1 Query; add text noting that MD5 shouldnot be used for cryptographic applications
14:37:05 <sandro> +1
14:37:05 <AndyS> Only  2^24.1 ops -> easy!
14:37:06 <kasei> +1
14:37:12 <AndyS> +1
14:37:25 <AxelPolleres> +1
14:37:28 <LeeF> RESOLVED: Remove SHA224 from SPARQL 1.1 Query; add text noting that MD5 shouldnot be used for cryptographic applications
14:38:04 <AndyS> ACTION AndyS Remove SHA224 from rq25; respond to JB-7
14:38:04 <trackbot> Created ACTION-539 - Remove SHA224 from rq25; respond to JB-7 [on Andy Seaborne - due 2011-10-11].
14:38:35 <AxelPolleres> q+ to ask about richard's comment
14:38:48 <kasei> topic: comments
14:39:03 <LeeF> ack AxelPolleres
14:39:03 <Zakim> AxelPolleres, you wanted to ask about richard's comment
14:39:27 <kasei> AxelPolleres: what do people think about adding clarifying wording w.r.t. RDF datasets?
14:39:42 <kasei> LeeF: discussed earlier about waiting on RDF WG's discussion about datasets.
14:39:52 <AndyS> +1 to wait  ; happy to improve text .... once
14:39:59 <kasei> LeeF: hold off on replying to Richard
14:40:14 <Zakim> -NickH
14:40:26 <AndyS> Owner for this comment?
14:40:32 <LeeF> close ACTION-527
14:40:32 <trackbot> ACTION-527 Let us know where the impl report code is in git and to put the generated report file somewhere in our CVS space closed
14:40:48 <kasei> topic: actions
14:40:52 <AxelPolleres> AndyS, I can take the comment.
14:41:11 <AndyS> Cool - do you want to add to wiki/Comments?
14:41:26 <kasei> AxelPolleres: would Matt and Andy be able to review document before last call?
14:41:26 <MattPerry> sure
14:41:48 <kasei> AndyS: should be able to take a look
14:41:53 <AndyS> Yes ( how much change?)
14:42:01 <LeeF> ACTION: Matthew to review the overview document after Axel sends a go-ahead
14:42:01 <trackbot> Created ACTION-540 - Review the overview document after Axel sends a go-ahead [on Matthew Perry - due 2011-10-11].
14:42:06 <LeeF> ACTION: Andy to review the overview document after Axel sends a go-ahead
14:42:06 <trackbot> Created ACTION-541 - Review the overview document after Axel sends a go-ahead [on Andy Seaborne - due 2011-10-11].
14:43:22 <bglimm> How will be at ISWC?
14:43:28 <bglimm> Zakim, unmute me
14:43:28 <Zakim> bglimm should no longer be muted
14:43:36 <AxelPolleres> will be there
14:43:37 <kasei> I will
14:43:41 <AndyS> I will be at ISWC
14:43:46 <bglimm> I will
14:43:52 <AndyS> SPARQL tutorial ...
14:44:08 <MattPerry> bye
14:44:09 <Zakim> -LeeF
14:44:11 <MattPerry> \quit
14:44:13 <Zakim> -AxelPolleres
14:44:15 <Zakim> -MattPerry
14:44:15 <Zakim> -pgearon
14:44:16 <Zakim> -Olivier
14:44:17 <Zakim> -bglimm
14:44:19 <Zakim> -cbuilara_
14:44:22 <Zakim> -Sandro
14:44:29 <Zakim> -kasei
14:44:34 <AndyS> I'll fix the tests for (removal of) SHA224
14:44:37 <Zakim> -AndyS
14:44:38 <Zakim> SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has ended
14:44:40 <Zakim> Attendees were NickH, kasei, cbuilara, +1.781.899.aaaa, Sandro, AndyS, +1.603.897.aabb, MattPerry, +1.540.841.aacc, pgearon, +1.617.553.aadd, LeeF, AxelPolleres, Olivier, bglimm,
14:44:42 <Zakim> ... cbuilara_
14:44:50 <AxelPolleres> rrsagent, make records public
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