Chatlog 2010-11-23

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14:54:47 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #sparql
14:54:47 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/11/23-sparql-irc
14:54:53 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #sparql
14:55:03 <AxelPolleres> trackbot, start meeting
14:55:05 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:55:07 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 77277
14:55:07 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes
14:55:08 <trackbot> Meeting: SPARQL Working Group Teleconference
14:55:08 <trackbot> Date: 23 November 2010
14:55:36 <AxelPolleres> agenda: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2010-11-23
14:55:45 <AxelPolleres> chair: Axel Polleres
14:55:54 <LeeF> zakim, this will be SPARQL
14:55:54 <Zakim> ok, LeeF; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes
14:55:55 <AxelPolleres> regrets: Chime, MattPerry, NickH, OlivierCorby 
14:57:50 <Zakim> SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has now started
14:57:57 <Zakim> +??P9
14:58:10 <cbuilara> Zakim, +?P9 is me
14:58:10 <Zakim> sorry, cbuilara, I do not recognize a party named '+?P9'
14:58:20 <cbuilara> Zakim, +??P9 is me
14:58:20 <Zakim> sorry, cbuilara, I do not recognize a party named '+??P9'
14:58:33 <cbuilara> Zakim, +P9 is me
14:58:33 <Zakim> sorry, cbuilara, I do not recognize a party named '+P9'
14:58:44 <Zakim> +AxelPolleres
14:58:46 <Zakim> +??P12
14:58:51 <cbuilara> +cbuilara
14:58:58 <SteveH_> SteveH_ has joined #sparql
14:59:07 <AndyS> zakim, ??P12 is me
14:59:07 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
14:59:15 <AxelPolleres> cbuilara is carlos
14:59:16 <pgearon> pgearon has joined #sparql
14:59:25 <cbuilara> zakim, ??P9 is me
14:59:25 <Zakim> +cbuilara; got it
14:59:36 <Zakim> +kasei
15:00:05 <Zakim> + +3539149aaaa
15:00:14 <Zakim> +pgearon
15:00:15 <AlexPassant> Zakim, +3539149aaaa is me
15:00:15 <Zakim> +AlexPassant; got it
15:00:26 <Zakim> +SteveH
15:00:28 <AxelPolleres> Zakim, who is on the phone?
15:00:28 <Zakim> On the phone I see cbuilara, AxelPolleres, AndyS, kasei, AlexPassant, pgearon, SteveH
15:01:21 <Zakim> +Lee_Feigenbaum
15:01:29 <LeeF> zakim, Lee_Feigenbaum is me
15:01:31 <Zakim> +LeeF; got it
15:01:44 <Zakim> +Sandro
15:02:10 <AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2010-11-23
15:02:39 <AxelPolleres> scribe: leeF
15:02:53 <AxelPolleres> topic: admin
15:02:58 <LeeF> # PROPOSED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2010-11-16 
15:03:01 <LeeF> PROPOSED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2010-11-16 
15:03:03 <cbuilara> I can hear you
15:03:05 <AndyS> can hear you
15:03:18 <AxelPolleres> RESOLVED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2010-11-16
15:03:51 <AxelPolleres> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2010OctDec/0256.html comments summary
15:03:56 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: comments page has been updated as above ^^^
15:04:10 <LeeF> ... still a few questions about whether responses are needed to some comments
15:04:32 <LeeF> ... one thread from Richard C about protocol faults
15:04:39 <LeeF> ... another from ???
15:04:45 <LeeF> ... do we need to reply officially?
15:05:46 <LeeF> LeeF: we do need to reply to Richard, once we handle protocol issues
15:06:56 <LeeF> ... other was from Ross H, which we've replied to
15:07:29 <AxelPolleres> * BINDINGS in SPARQL Query 2010-10-14 Dave Beckett ... answered by Peter Ansell
15:07:30 <AxelPolleres> * typo in SPARQL 1.1 Query Language WD: invalid property "rdf:next" Michael Schneider ... answered by Andy
15:07:30 <AxelPolleres> * Permit LOAD from a SPARQL CONSTRUCT endpoint David Booth ... answered by Alex
15:07:30 <AxelPolleres> \
15:07:36 <AndyS> q+
15:07:38 <AlexPassant> q+ 
15:07:43 <LeeF> ack AndyS
15:07:52 <AndyS> On emment - 
15:07:56 <AndyS> One moment ....
15:08:02 <LeeF> q+ AndyS
15:08:05 <LeeF> ack AlexPassant
15:08:22 <NicoM> NicoM has joined #Sparql
15:09:27 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: ask Davidf booth for confirmation of reply and add row to comments table
15:09:27 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - ask
15:09:40 <LeeF> ACTION: Alex to ask Davidf booth for confirmation of reply and add row to comments table
15:09:41 <trackbot> Created ACTION-334 - Ask Davidf booth for confirmation of reply and add row to comments table [on Alexandre Passant - due 2010-11-30].
15:09:57 <LeeF> AndyS: editorial matters, checked with Lee and went ahead and replied
15:10:36 <LeeF> ack AndyS
15:10:47 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: comment on BINDINGS does not need our action
15:10:54 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: Please check comments list and see if you can move any forwards
15:11:19 <LeeF> ... in particular, there is one on property paths that we haven't addressed yet - has anyone looked at that?
15:11:43 <LeeF> AndyS: yes, it's a very good summary of everything we've talked about, but i don't think changes our position - we have been cognizant of the points raised when we made our decisions
15:11:56 <SteveH> q+
15:12:08 <LeeF> ... raises issue of equivalence between triple patterns and path pattern, and also about considering future extensions to include length of paths
15:12:32 <SteveH> q-
15:13:06 <LeeF> AndyS: Good points, but no new information. Will draft a response
15:13:09 <LeeF> +1 AndyS
15:13:19 <LeeF> s/+1 AndyS/LeeF: +1 AndyS
15:14:05 <LeeF> Next regular meeting: 2010-11-30 @ 15:00 UK / 10:00 EST (scribe: Carlos Buil) 
15:14:23 <LeeF> topic: Publication schedule 
15:15:44 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: alex to address MS-1 comment 
15:15:45 <trackbot> Created ACTION-335 - Address MS-1 comment  [on Alexandre Passant - due 2010-11-30].
15:15:51 <LeeF> (DIsucssion around comment MS-1, which Alex agrees to own)
15:16:14 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: In October we discussed our schedule and trying to get to Last Call
15:16:14 <AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2010-10-05#schedule__2f_extension
15:16:45 <AlexPassant> LeeF: you can close ACTION-334 : I've updated table and asked David (off-list) to acknowledge (on-list)
15:16:49 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: per our schedule, we should be reviewing docs for Last Call now
15:16:57 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-334
15:16:57 <trackbot> ACTION-334 Ask Davidf booth for confirmation of reply and add row to comments table closed
15:17:09 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: what can we do / do we need to do to get to Last Call?
15:17:56 <AxelPolleres> query?
15:18:16 <LeeF> AndyS: Everything is marked in the document with @@ as to what needs to be done from my point-of-videw
15:18:20 <LeeF> s/videw/view
15:18:25 <LeeF> AndyS: There is a lot of editing to be done
15:18:31 <LeeF> AndyS: I've done BIND
15:18:48 <LeeF> AndyS: Doing GROUP BY ... AS ...
15:19:05 <LeeF> AndyS: There are consistency things that need to be done, such as aligning grammar fragments throughout the document - will do once grammar is stable
15:19:11 <LeeF> AndyS: And a lot of general editing to do
15:19:24 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: what's missing for the grammar?
15:19:30 <LeeF> AndyS: decision on verbs for update
15:20:19 <LeeF> LeeF: what needs a group decision if anything?
15:20:45 <LeeF> AndyS: don't think anything, there was a discussion around prefixed names which would radically change things, but don't htink there's anything right now where WG action is blocking progress
15:21:01 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: any time frame estimate?
15:21:03 <LeeF> AndyS: about a month
15:21:14 <AndyS> ... very rough estimate
15:21:15 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: Steve?
15:21:30 <LeeF> SteveH: have two pages of notes on things that want to change - probably about 3 days of editing effort, hoping to find 3 days of time before the end of December
15:21:53 <LeeF> AndyS: (to Steve) we need to link up on formal semantics of aggregation
15:21:59 <LeeF> SteveH: hoping first to fix information gap in how things line up
15:22:06 <LeeF> SteveH: and then check if you (AndyS) believe it
15:23:08 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: ready before christmas?
15:23:15 <LeeF> SteveH: no, ready before end of December
15:24:00 <LeeF> LeeF: if documents are ready at the end of December, probably not publishing LC before the end of January
15:24:03 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: update?
15:24:08 <LeeF> pgearon: one issue is shortcuts
15:24:18 <LeeF> AlexPassant: comments on formal model that have not been addressed
15:24:30 <LeeF> AlexPassant: also comments on bnodes and other things from previous reviews that need to be incorporated
15:24:42 <LeeF> AlexPassant: shortcuts, formal model, comments from previous reviews
15:27:28 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: Sandro?
15:27:32 <LeeF> sandro: I can work on that any time.
15:27:43 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: We'll find a common time to discuss.
15:28:04 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: ... issues about embedding RIF in RDF 
15:28:26 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: axel to check back with Birte/chime on entailment regimes schedule
15:28:26 <trackbot> Created ACTION-336 - Check back with Birte/chime on entailment regimes schedule [on Axel Polleres - due 2010-11-30].
15:29:25 <AxelPolleres> http-update 
15:29:43 <LeeF> AndyS: base URI matter and handling of default graphs still to be addressed in HTTP protocol document
15:29:49 <AxelPolleres> LeeF: I got back to chime to inform us about status
15:30:17 <AxelPolleres> service description?
15:30:19 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: service desc?
15:30:22 <LeeF> kasei: two issues
15:30:29 <LeeF> kasei: add feature URI for basic federated queries
15:30:42 <LeeF> kasei: have some links and text that need to align with a protocol document whenever that is dealt with
15:31:16 <AxelPolleres> no objections to kasei address  the first item.
15:31:26 <AxelPolleres> protocol?
15:31:59 <AxelPolleres> LeeF: dedicated TC would probably help
15:32:50 <AxelPolleres> protocol doc a bit laging, no dedicated editor at the moment.
15:33:26 <LeeF> Who would be willing to participate in working sessions around protocol?
15:33:31 <SteveH> telecon, yes. editing, no
15:33:45 <kasei> I'd be willing to help.
15:33:59 <LeeF> Lee would be willing to help
15:34:00 <AndyS> As SteveH
15:34:30 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: LeeF to sned out a doodle poll on protocol TC
15:34:30 <trackbot> Created ACTION-337 - Sned out a doodle poll on protocol TC [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2010-11-30].
15:35:24 <AxelPolleres> Axel: outcome needed of that dedicated TC is a schedule (Andy: and who's doing the writing) 
15:36:01 <ivan> ivan has joined #sparql
15:36:03 <AndyS> AndyS: schedule requires writing effort
15:36:15 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
15:36:15 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
15:36:17 <Zakim> +Ivan
15:36:18 <AxelPolleres> federated query extension?
15:36:42 <AxelPolleres> carlos: want to have everything ready by 21 dec
15:36:44 <AndyS> q+
15:37:19 <AxelPolleres> carlos: would appreciate feedback.
15:37:23 <LeeF> AndyS: are there any syntax changes?
15:37:27 <LeeF> carlos: no
15:37:28 <AxelPolleres> andy: any syntax changes in mind?
15:38:37 <AxelPolleres> overview-document
15:38:40 <AxelPolleres> ?
15:39:40 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: some changes with examples, list everyone contributing as participants
15:39:49 <AxelPolleres> update by mid of december.
15:40:27 <ivan> q+
15:40:45 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: ivan is leaving us as staff contact, thanks to ivan for all of his help
15:40:46 <AndyS> (applause)
15:41:03 <LeeF> ivan: restructuring in light of new groups and w3c resources
15:41:10 <LeeF> ... will be picking up rdb2rdf staff contact
15:41:16 <LeeF> ... also new rdf group coming up
15:41:22 <LeeF> ... will stay on SPARQL mailing list
15:41:53 <LeeF> ack AndyS
15:42:04 <LeeF> AndyS: what's the status of the function library document?
15:43:11 <AxelPolleres> topic: shortcuts
15:43:13 <AndyS> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:43:13 <Zakim> On the phone I see cbuilara, AxelPolleres, AndyS, kasei, AlexPassant, pgearon, SteveH, LeeF, Sandro, Ivan
15:44:12 <AxelPolleres>  PROPOSED1: Add update shortcuts in LC marked explicitly "AT RISK" and asking for feedback, explicitly about potentially complicating the language, and implementation experience.
15:44:21 <AxelPolleres>  PROPOSED2: postpone ISSUE-59 
15:44:33 <SteveH> strawpoll?
15:44:44 <AlexPassant> +1 for a strawpoll
15:44:45 <SteveH> q+
15:44:51 <ivan> q-
15:45:22 <LeeF> SteveH: how about one strawpoll?
15:45:38 <LeeF> sandro: is the reason not to do this because it slows down the schedule?
15:46:01 <AlexPassant> It wont slow down schedule imo 
15:46:08 <AndyS> q+
15:46:10 <AlexPassant> not from an editing pov at least
15:46:13 <SteveH> q-
15:46:23 <LeeF> LeeF: expresesd concerns relate to not wanting to add shortcuts into the language yet
15:46:39 <AndyS> q-
15:47:23 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: +1 is for adding shortcuts, -1 is for postponing work on shortcuts
15:47:44 <AndyS> Small point: we already have a "shortcut" --  CLEAR
15:48:07 <AxelPolleres> +1 is for adding shortcuts, -1 is for postponing work on shortcuts
15:48:08 <kasei> -1
15:48:09 <SteveH> -1
15:48:10 <AlexPassant> +1
15:48:12 <LeeF> sandro: +1
15:48:15 <AndyS> +1
15:48:19 <Zakim> -Ivan
15:48:34 <LeeF> 0
15:48:37 <cbuilara> 0
15:48:42 <pgearon> +1
15:48:53 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
15:48:53 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
15:48:55 <Zakim> +Ivan
15:49:12 <ivan> 0
15:49:31 <AxelPolleres> +1
15:49:52 <AxelPolleres> 5/3/2
15:50:05 <AxelPolleres> PROPOSED: Add update shortcuts in LC marked explicitly "AT RISK" and asking for feedback, explicitly about potentially complicating the language, and implementation experience.
15:50:09 <LeeF> Abstain.
15:50:10 <SteveH> abstain
15:50:27 <AndyS> seconded
15:50:31 <kasei> abstain
15:50:47 <LeeF> RESOLVED: Add update shortcuts in LC marked explicitly "AT RISK" and asking for feedback, explicitly about potentially complicating the language, and implementation experience, SteveH, LeeF, kasei abstaining
15:51:26 <LeeF> ISSUE-59?
15:51:26 <trackbot> ISSUE-59 -- Shall we add shortcuts for update as proposed in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2010JulSep/0053.html -- open
15:51:26 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/59
15:51:35 <LeeF>  ISSUE-59:  RESOLVED: Add update shortcuts in LC marked explicitly "AT RISK" and asking for feedback, explicitly about potentially complicating the language, and implementation experience, SteveH, LeeF, kasei abstaining
15:51:35 <trackbot> ISSUE-59 Shall we add shortcuts for update as proposed in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2010JulSep/0053.html notes added
15:51:40 <LeeF> trackbot, close ISSUE-59
15:51:40 <AxelPolleres> topic: function library
15:51:40 <trackbot> ISSUE-59 Shall we add shortcuts for update as proposed in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2010JulSep/0053.html closed
15:51:55 <AxelPolleres> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2010OctDec/0252.html
15:54:02 <AxelPolleres> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2010OctDec/0188.html
15:54:26 <SteveH> q+
15:54:32 <AndyS> Simple literals.
15:54:34 <kasei> simple literals, please
15:54:58 <LeeF> Simple literals, can always be casted with xsd:string(...)
15:55:08 <AxelPolleres> seems that we need "own versions" for all 
15:55:11 <AxelPolleres>         7.3.2 fn:compare
15:55:12 <AxelPolleres>         7.4.1 fn:concat
15:55:12 <AxelPolleres>         7.4.3 fn:substring
15:55:12 <AxelPolleres>         7.4.4 fn:string-length
15:55:13 <AxelPolleres>         7.4.7 fn:upper-case
15:55:13 <AxelPolleres>         7.4.8 fn:lower-case
15:55:14 <AxelPolleres>         7.4.10 fn:encode-for-uri
15:55:16 <AxelPolleres>         7.5.1 fn:contains     (collation form optional)
15:55:18 <AxelPolleres>         7.5.2 fn:starts-with
15:55:20 <AxelPolleres>         7.5.3 fn:ends-with
15:55:52 <SteveH> CONCAT(...) == STR(fn:concat(...))
15:56:03 <LeeF> LeeF: Would like to be able to freely compose these functions that deal in strings
15:57:37 <SteveH> "Atomic datatypes are those having values which are regarded by this specification as being indivisible."
15:57:50 <AndyS> "Atomic datatypes are those having values which are regarded by this specification as being indivisible. "
16:00:02 <Zakim> -SteveH
16:00:40 <LeeF> adjourned, officially
16:00:57 <SteveH> sorry, got kicked, missed the end of AndyS's diatribe
16:01:18 <Zakim> -LeeF
16:02:10 <ivan> zakim, drop me
16:02:10 <Zakim> Ivan is being disconnected
16:02:11 <Zakim> -Ivan
16:02:42 <Zakim> -AlexPassant
16:02:43 <Zakim> -cbuilara
16:02:44 <Zakim> -kasei
16:02:49 <Zakim> -pgearon
16:02:53 <Zakim> -Sandro
16:03:15 <AxelPolleres> Axel: Andy, would there for the string related functions speak anything against defining our own that treat strings and simple literals the same and return simple lieterals instead of strings?
16:03:21 <AxelPolleres> Andy: that sounds doable
16:03:46 <AxelPolleres> adjourned for real now... thanks all!
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