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Chatlog 2010-11-23
From SPARQL Working Group
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14:54:47 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #sparql 14:54:47 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/11/23-sparql-irc 14:54:53 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #sparql 14:55:03 <AxelPolleres> trackbot, start meeting 14:55:05 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world 14:55:07 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 77277 14:55:07 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes 14:55:08 <trackbot> Meeting: SPARQL Working Group Teleconference 14:55:08 <trackbot> Date: 23 November 2010 14:55:36 <AxelPolleres> agenda: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2010-11-23 14:55:45 <AxelPolleres> chair: Axel Polleres 14:55:54 <LeeF> zakim, this will be SPARQL 14:55:54 <Zakim> ok, LeeF; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes 14:55:55 <AxelPolleres> regrets: Chime, MattPerry, NickH, OlivierCorby 14:57:50 <Zakim> SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has now started 14:57:57 <Zakim> +??P9 14:58:10 <cbuilara> Zakim, +?P9 is me 14:58:10 <Zakim> sorry, cbuilara, I do not recognize a party named '+?P9' 14:58:20 <cbuilara> Zakim, +??P9 is me 14:58:20 <Zakim> sorry, cbuilara, I do not recognize a party named '+??P9' 14:58:33 <cbuilara> Zakim, +P9 is me 14:58:33 <Zakim> sorry, cbuilara, I do not recognize a party named '+P9' 14:58:44 <Zakim> +AxelPolleres 14:58:46 <Zakim> +??P12 14:58:51 <cbuilara> +cbuilara 14:58:58 <SteveH_> SteveH_ has joined #sparql 14:59:07 <AndyS> zakim, ??P12 is me 14:59:07 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it 14:59:15 <AxelPolleres> cbuilara is carlos 14:59:16 <pgearon> pgearon has joined #sparql 14:59:25 <cbuilara> zakim, ??P9 is me 14:59:25 <Zakim> +cbuilara; got it 14:59:36 <Zakim> +kasei 15:00:05 <Zakim> + +3539149aaaa 15:00:14 <Zakim> +pgearon 15:00:15 <AlexPassant> Zakim, +3539149aaaa is me 15:00:15 <Zakim> +AlexPassant; got it 15:00:26 <Zakim> +SteveH 15:00:28 <AxelPolleres> Zakim, who is on the phone? 15:00:28 <Zakim> On the phone I see cbuilara, AxelPolleres, AndyS, kasei, AlexPassant, pgearon, SteveH 15:01:21 <Zakim> +Lee_Feigenbaum 15:01:29 <LeeF> zakim, Lee_Feigenbaum is me 15:01:31 <Zakim> +LeeF; got it 15:01:44 <Zakim> +Sandro 15:02:10 <AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2010-11-23 15:02:39 <AxelPolleres> scribe: leeF 15:02:53 <AxelPolleres> topic: admin 15:02:58 <LeeF> # PROPOSED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2010-11-16 15:03:01 <LeeF> PROPOSED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2010-11-16 15:03:03 <cbuilara> I can hear you 15:03:05 <AndyS> can hear you 15:03:18 <AxelPolleres> RESOLVED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2010-11-16 15:03:51 <AxelPolleres> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2010OctDec/0256.html comments summary 15:03:56 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: comments page has been updated as above ^^^ 15:04:10 <LeeF> ... still a few questions about whether responses are needed to some comments 15:04:32 <LeeF> ... one thread from Richard C about protocol faults 15:04:39 <LeeF> ... another from ??? 15:04:45 <LeeF> ... do we need to reply officially? 15:05:46 <LeeF> LeeF: we do need to reply to Richard, once we handle protocol issues 15:06:56 <LeeF> ... other was from Ross H, which we've replied to 15:07:29 <AxelPolleres> * BINDINGS in SPARQL Query 2010-10-14 Dave Beckett ... answered by Peter Ansell 15:07:30 <AxelPolleres> * typo in SPARQL 1.1 Query Language WD: invalid property "rdf:next" Michael Schneider ... answered by Andy 15:07:30 <AxelPolleres> * Permit LOAD from a SPARQL CONSTRUCT endpoint David Booth ... answered by Alex 15:07:30 <AxelPolleres> \ 15:07:36 <AndyS> q+ 15:07:38 <AlexPassant> q+ 15:07:43 <LeeF> ack AndyS 15:07:52 <AndyS> On emment - 15:07:56 <AndyS> One moment .... 15:08:02 <LeeF> q+ AndyS 15:08:05 <LeeF> ack AlexPassant 15:08:22 <NicoM> NicoM has joined #Sparql 15:09:27 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: ask Davidf booth for confirmation of reply and add row to comments table 15:09:27 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - ask 15:09:40 <LeeF> ACTION: Alex to ask Davidf booth for confirmation of reply and add row to comments table 15:09:41 <trackbot> Created ACTION-334 - Ask Davidf booth for confirmation of reply and add row to comments table [on Alexandre Passant - due 2010-11-30]. 15:09:57 <LeeF> AndyS: editorial matters, checked with Lee and went ahead and replied 15:10:36 <LeeF> ack AndyS 15:10:47 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: comment on BINDINGS does not need our action 15:10:54 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: Please check comments list and see if you can move any forwards 15:11:19 <LeeF> ... in particular, there is one on property paths that we haven't addressed yet - has anyone looked at that? 15:11:43 <LeeF> AndyS: yes, it's a very good summary of everything we've talked about, but i don't think changes our position - we have been cognizant of the points raised when we made our decisions 15:11:56 <SteveH> q+ 15:12:08 <LeeF> ... raises issue of equivalence between triple patterns and path pattern, and also about considering future extensions to include length of paths 15:12:32 <SteveH> q- 15:13:06 <LeeF> AndyS: Good points, but no new information. Will draft a response 15:13:09 <LeeF> +1 AndyS 15:13:19 <LeeF> s/+1 AndyS/LeeF: +1 AndyS 15:14:05 <LeeF> Next regular meeting: 2010-11-30 @ 15:00 UK / 10:00 EST (scribe: Carlos Buil) 15:14:23 <LeeF> topic: Publication schedule 15:15:44 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: alex to address MS-1 comment 15:15:45 <trackbot> Created ACTION-335 - Address MS-1 comment [on Alexandre Passant - due 2010-11-30]. 15:15:51 <LeeF> (DIsucssion around comment MS-1, which Alex agrees to own) 15:16:14 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: In October we discussed our schedule and trying to get to Last Call 15:16:14 <AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2010-10-05#schedule__2f_extension 15:16:45 <AlexPassant> LeeF: you can close ACTION-334 : I've updated table and asked David (off-list) to acknowledge (on-list) 15:16:49 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: per our schedule, we should be reviewing docs for Last Call now 15:16:57 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-334 15:16:57 <trackbot> ACTION-334 Ask Davidf booth for confirmation of reply and add row to comments table closed 15:17:09 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: what can we do / do we need to do to get to Last Call? 15:17:56 <AxelPolleres> query? 15:18:16 <LeeF> AndyS: Everything is marked in the document with @@ as to what needs to be done from my point-of-videw 15:18:20 <LeeF> s/videw/view 15:18:25 <LeeF> AndyS: There is a lot of editing to be done 15:18:31 <LeeF> AndyS: I've done BIND 15:18:48 <LeeF> AndyS: Doing GROUP BY ... AS ... 15:19:05 <LeeF> AndyS: There are consistency things that need to be done, such as aligning grammar fragments throughout the document - will do once grammar is stable 15:19:11 <LeeF> AndyS: And a lot of general editing to do 15:19:24 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: what's missing for the grammar? 15:19:30 <LeeF> AndyS: decision on verbs for update 15:20:19 <LeeF> LeeF: what needs a group decision if anything? 15:20:45 <LeeF> AndyS: don't think anything, there was a discussion around prefixed names which would radically change things, but don't htink there's anything right now where WG action is blocking progress 15:21:01 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: any time frame estimate? 15:21:03 <LeeF> AndyS: about a month 15:21:14 <AndyS> ... very rough estimate 15:21:15 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: Steve? 15:21:30 <LeeF> SteveH: have two pages of notes on things that want to change - probably about 3 days of editing effort, hoping to find 3 days of time before the end of December 15:21:53 <LeeF> AndyS: (to Steve) we need to link up on formal semantics of aggregation 15:21:59 <LeeF> SteveH: hoping first to fix information gap in how things line up 15:22:06 <LeeF> SteveH: and then check if you (AndyS) believe it 15:23:08 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: ready before christmas? 15:23:15 <LeeF> SteveH: no, ready before end of December 15:24:00 <LeeF> LeeF: if documents are ready at the end of December, probably not publishing LC before the end of January 15:24:03 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: update? 15:24:08 <LeeF> pgearon: one issue is shortcuts 15:24:18 <LeeF> AlexPassant: comments on formal model that have not been addressed 15:24:30 <LeeF> AlexPassant: also comments on bnodes and other things from previous reviews that need to be incorporated 15:24:42 <LeeF> AlexPassant: shortcuts, formal model, comments from previous reviews 15:27:28 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: Sandro? 15:27:32 <LeeF> sandro: I can work on that any time. 15:27:43 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: We'll find a common time to discuss. 15:28:04 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: ... issues about embedding RIF in RDF 15:28:26 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: axel to check back with Birte/chime on entailment regimes schedule 15:28:26 <trackbot> Created ACTION-336 - Check back with Birte/chime on entailment regimes schedule [on Axel Polleres - due 2010-11-30]. 15:29:25 <AxelPolleres> http-update 15:29:43 <LeeF> AndyS: base URI matter and handling of default graphs still to be addressed in HTTP protocol document 15:29:49 <AxelPolleres> LeeF: I got back to chime to inform us about status 15:30:17 <AxelPolleres> service description? 15:30:19 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: service desc? 15:30:22 <LeeF> kasei: two issues 15:30:29 <LeeF> kasei: add feature URI for basic federated queries 15:30:42 <LeeF> kasei: have some links and text that need to align with a protocol document whenever that is dealt with 15:31:16 <AxelPolleres> no objections to kasei address the first item. 15:31:26 <AxelPolleres> protocol? 15:31:59 <AxelPolleres> LeeF: dedicated TC would probably help 15:32:50 <AxelPolleres> protocol doc a bit laging, no dedicated editor at the moment. 15:33:26 <LeeF> Who would be willing to participate in working sessions around protocol? 15:33:31 <SteveH> telecon, yes. editing, no 15:33:45 <kasei> I'd be willing to help. 15:33:59 <LeeF> Lee would be willing to help 15:34:00 <AndyS> As SteveH 15:34:30 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: LeeF to sned out a doodle poll on protocol TC 15:34:30 <trackbot> Created ACTION-337 - Sned out a doodle poll on protocol TC [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2010-11-30]. 15:35:24 <AxelPolleres> Axel: outcome needed of that dedicated TC is a schedule (Andy: and who's doing the writing) 15:36:01 <ivan> ivan has joined #sparql 15:36:03 <AndyS> AndyS: schedule requires writing effort 15:36:15 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip 15:36:15 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made 15:36:17 <Zakim> +Ivan 15:36:18 <AxelPolleres> federated query extension? 15:36:42 <AxelPolleres> carlos: want to have everything ready by 21 dec 15:36:44 <AndyS> q+ 15:37:19 <AxelPolleres> carlos: would appreciate feedback. 15:37:23 <LeeF> AndyS: are there any syntax changes? 15:37:27 <LeeF> carlos: no 15:37:28 <AxelPolleres> andy: any syntax changes in mind? 15:38:37 <AxelPolleres> overview-document 15:38:40 <AxelPolleres> ? 15:39:40 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: some changes with examples, list everyone contributing as participants 15:39:49 <AxelPolleres> update by mid of december. 15:40:27 <ivan> q+ 15:40:45 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: ivan is leaving us as staff contact, thanks to ivan for all of his help 15:40:46 <AndyS> (applause) 15:41:03 <LeeF> ivan: restructuring in light of new groups and w3c resources 15:41:10 <LeeF> ... will be picking up rdb2rdf staff contact 15:41:16 <LeeF> ... also new rdf group coming up 15:41:22 <LeeF> ... will stay on SPARQL mailing list 15:41:53 <LeeF> ack AndyS 15:42:04 <LeeF> AndyS: what's the status of the function library document? 15:43:11 <AxelPolleres> topic: shortcuts 15:43:13 <AndyS> zakim, who is on the phone? 15:43:13 <Zakim> On the phone I see cbuilara, AxelPolleres, AndyS, kasei, AlexPassant, pgearon, SteveH, LeeF, Sandro, Ivan 15:44:12 <AxelPolleres> PROPOSED1: Add update shortcuts in LC marked explicitly "AT RISK" and asking for feedback, explicitly about potentially complicating the language, and implementation experience. 15:44:21 <AxelPolleres> PROPOSED2: postpone ISSUE-59 15:44:33 <SteveH> strawpoll? 15:44:44 <AlexPassant> +1 for a strawpoll 15:44:45 <SteveH> q+ 15:44:51 <ivan> q- 15:45:22 <LeeF> SteveH: how about one strawpoll? 15:45:38 <LeeF> sandro: is the reason not to do this because it slows down the schedule? 15:46:01 <AlexPassant> It wont slow down schedule imo 15:46:08 <AndyS> q+ 15:46:10 <AlexPassant> not from an editing pov at least 15:46:13 <SteveH> q- 15:46:23 <LeeF> LeeF: expresesd concerns relate to not wanting to add shortcuts into the language yet 15:46:39 <AndyS> q- 15:47:23 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: +1 is for adding shortcuts, -1 is for postponing work on shortcuts 15:47:44 <AndyS> Small point: we already have a "shortcut" -- CLEAR 15:48:07 <AxelPolleres> +1 is for adding shortcuts, -1 is for postponing work on shortcuts 15:48:08 <kasei> -1 15:48:09 <SteveH> -1 15:48:10 <AlexPassant> +1 15:48:12 <LeeF> sandro: +1 15:48:15 <AndyS> +1 15:48:19 <Zakim> -Ivan 15:48:34 <LeeF> 0 15:48:37 <cbuilara> 0 15:48:42 <pgearon> +1 15:48:53 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip 15:48:53 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made 15:48:55 <Zakim> +Ivan 15:49:12 <ivan> 0 15:49:31 <AxelPolleres> +1 15:49:52 <AxelPolleres> 5/3/2 15:50:05 <AxelPolleres> PROPOSED: Add update shortcuts in LC marked explicitly "AT RISK" and asking for feedback, explicitly about potentially complicating the language, and implementation experience. 15:50:09 <LeeF> Abstain. 15:50:10 <SteveH> abstain 15:50:27 <AndyS> seconded 15:50:31 <kasei> abstain 15:50:47 <LeeF> RESOLVED: Add update shortcuts in LC marked explicitly "AT RISK" and asking for feedback, explicitly about potentially complicating the language, and implementation experience, SteveH, LeeF, kasei abstaining 15:51:26 <LeeF> ISSUE-59? 15:51:26 <trackbot> ISSUE-59 -- Shall we add shortcuts for update as proposed in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2010JulSep/0053.html -- open 15:51:26 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/59 15:51:35 <LeeF> ISSUE-59: RESOLVED: Add update shortcuts in LC marked explicitly "AT RISK" and asking for feedback, explicitly about potentially complicating the language, and implementation experience, SteveH, LeeF, kasei abstaining 15:51:35 <trackbot> ISSUE-59 Shall we add shortcuts for update as proposed in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2010JulSep/0053.html notes added 15:51:40 <LeeF> trackbot, close ISSUE-59 15:51:40 <AxelPolleres> topic: function library 15:51:40 <trackbot> ISSUE-59 Shall we add shortcuts for update as proposed in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2010JulSep/0053.html closed 15:51:55 <AxelPolleres> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2010OctDec/0252.html 15:54:02 <AxelPolleres> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2010OctDec/0188.html 15:54:26 <SteveH> q+ 15:54:32 <AndyS> Simple literals. 15:54:34 <kasei> simple literals, please 15:54:58 <LeeF> Simple literals, can always be casted with xsd:string(...) 15:55:08 <AxelPolleres> seems that we need "own versions" for all 15:55:11 <AxelPolleres> 7.3.2 fn:compare 15:55:12 <AxelPolleres> 7.4.1 fn:concat 15:55:12 <AxelPolleres> 7.4.3 fn:substring 15:55:12 <AxelPolleres> 7.4.4 fn:string-length 15:55:13 <AxelPolleres> 7.4.7 fn:upper-case 15:55:13 <AxelPolleres> 7.4.8 fn:lower-case 15:55:14 <AxelPolleres> 7.4.10 fn:encode-for-uri 15:55:16 <AxelPolleres> 7.5.1 fn:contains (collation form optional) 15:55:18 <AxelPolleres> 7.5.2 fn:starts-with 15:55:20 <AxelPolleres> 7.5.3 fn:ends-with 15:55:52 <SteveH> CONCAT(...) == STR(fn:concat(...)) 15:56:03 <LeeF> LeeF: Would like to be able to freely compose these functions that deal in strings 15:57:37 <SteveH> "Atomic datatypes are those having values which are regarded by this specification as being indivisible." 15:57:50 <AndyS> "Atomic datatypes are those having values which are regarded by this specification as being indivisible. " 16:00:02 <Zakim> -SteveH 16:00:40 <LeeF> adjourned, officially 16:00:57 <SteveH> sorry, got kicked, missed the end of AndyS's diatribe 16:01:18 <Zakim> -LeeF 16:02:10 <ivan> zakim, drop me 16:02:10 <Zakim> Ivan is being disconnected 16:02:11 <Zakim> -Ivan 16:02:42 <Zakim> -AlexPassant 16:02:43 <Zakim> -cbuilara 16:02:44 <Zakim> -kasei 16:02:49 <Zakim> -pgearon 16:02:53 <Zakim> -Sandro 16:03:15 <AxelPolleres> Axel: Andy, would there for the string related functions speak anything against defining our own that treat strings and simple literals the same and return simple lieterals instead of strings? 16:03:21 <AxelPolleres> Andy: that sounds doable 16:03:46 <AxelPolleres> adjourned for real now... thanks all! # SPECIAL MARKER FOR CHATSYNC. DO NOT EDIT THIS LINE OR BELOW. SRCLINESUSED=00000273