Chatlog 2009-12-08

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<LeeF> Present: LeeF, Axel, AlexPassant, Andy, dcharbon2, Orri, Souri, mperry, Chimezie, kasei, tommik, ivanh, sandro, pgearon, bglimm
14:52:06 <trackbot>  Meeting: SPARQL Working Group Teleconference
14:52:06 <trackbot> Date: 08 December 2009
14:52:11 <LeeF> zakim, this will be SPARQL
14:58:43 <Zakim> SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has now started
15:02:18 <LeeF> Scribenick: leef
15:02:18 <LeeF> Chair: Axel
15:07:47 <LeeF> Regrets: SteveH, LukeWM, Kjetilk
15:04:41 <LeeF> topic: Introductions
15:05:17 <ivanh> welcome to souri and mperry!
15:05:23 <LeeF> Souri: I was involved in DAWG and some of the early SPARQL WG meetings and have now joined officially. We've followed the WG's progress, hoping to contribute
15:05:36 <LeeF> mperry: Also from Oracle, joined about a year ago and work on SPARQL query answering in Oracle
15:05:44 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: Welcome!
15:06:10 <LeeF> topic: admin
15:06:02 <AxelPolleres> PROPOSED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-11-24
15:06:22 <AxelPolleres> RESOLVED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-11-24
15:06:32 <AxelPolleres> PROPOSED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-12-01
15:06:51 <AxelPolleres> RESOLVED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-12-01
15:06:52 <bglimm> I said I could not make it
15:07:03 <bglimm> but I am not in the regrets list
15:07:29 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: axel to add birte to regrets in last time minutes
15:07:29 <trackbot> Created ACTION-147 - Add birte to regrets in last time minutes [on Axel Polleres - due 2009-12-15].
15:07:55 <LeeF> Next meeting is one week from now (Dec-15)
15:08:02 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: Do we want to have a meeting on the 22nd?
15:08:03 <ivanh> regrets for next week
15:08:10 <LeeF> ... we want to publish next round of documents in mid-January
15:08:27 <LeeF> ... might be good to have teleconference on 22nd as we're bringing documents into shape for internal review
15:08:34 <ivanh> I am on vacations
15:08:35 <LeeF> ... Who would NOT be able to join on the 22nd?
15:08:39 <bglimm> I am not sure whether I can make it
15:08:39 <AlexPassant> Ill be away
15:08:40 <AndyS> I can make a telecon on 22nd 
15:08:46 <pgearon> I need to find out about school timetable
15:08:49 <LeeF> I can make it
15:08:50 <chimezie> i will be on vaccation
15:09:02 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: Let's try to have one with whoever is around
15:09:02 <AndyS> sicne we're planning ... 29th? yes/no?
15:09:18 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: Suggest no teleconference on Dec 29
15:09:30 <LeeF> ... resume on Jan 5
15:09:38 <bglimm> 5th is ok
15:09:38 <ivanh> agreed
15:09:41 <LeeF> ... ok?
15:09:43 <pgearon> sure
15:09:44 <AndyS> Fine by me.
15:09:44 <Souri> +1
15:09:45 <chimezie> ok
15:09:46 <AlexPassant> +1
15:09:47 <mperry> yes
15:09:47 <LeeF>  everyone: ok
15:09:52 <chimezie> Zakim, mute me
15:09:52 <Zakim> Chimezie_Ogbuji should now be muted
15:10:08 <LeeF> subtopic: F2F3
15:10:14 <LeeF> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/F2F3
15:10:31 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: Please fill in your availability for next face-to-face in March
15:10:48 <LeeF> ... plan is to have mid-March meeting with two sites (US and UK/Ireland)
15:11:28 <LeeF> ... discussion among chairs about fixing the dates
15:11:39 <AndyS> Please do fix the date soon.
15:11:49 <LeeF> ... two slots under discussion
15:11:52 <LeeF> ... 1) 15 & 16
15:12:01 <LeeF> ... 2) 25 & 26
15:12:22 <LeeF> ... any preferences?
15:12:25 <pgearon> I can't make it on the 16th
15:12:35 <Zakim> -Orri
15:13:05 <AndyS> Can make either - fixing the date is what is important for me.
15:13:17 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: Can anyone not make the 25th and 26th?
15:13:20 <LeeF> (silence)
15:13:53 <Souri> 25th and 26th is fine with Matt and me
15:14:23 <LeeF> sandro: let's give 48 hours for people to comment on 25th and 26th for face to face
15:15:03 <Zakim> +??P35
15:15:04 <AndyS> Please flip the coin on Oxford and Galway as well (IIRC Steve iffy for Galway)
15:15:07 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: F2F3 will probably be March 25 & 26, 2010, to be fixed in a couple of days
15:15:19 <LeeF> summary: F2F3 will probably be March 25 & 26, 2010, to be fixed in a couple of days
15:15:22 <AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Comments
15:15:50 <LeeF> topic: comments
15:16:06 <kasei> I added a draft response to ldodds-sd-1 last night.
15:16:29 <LeeF> LeeF: comments from Holger and Jeremy are still open
15:16:53 <AndyS> AH-1 was sent to me directly so no reply needed.
15:17:23 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: Please take a look at early comments and address if possible/relevant
15:17:29 <LeeF> AndyS: No expectation of reply to AH-1
15:18:40 <LeeF> topic: liaisons
15:18:45 <Zakim> + +1.919.332.aadd
15:18:47 <LeeF> Souri: RDB2RDF still doing presentations
15:19:01 <LeeF> ... nothing special to report
15:19:17 <LeeF> topic: Publications
15:19:27 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: How do we get to next round of publications?
15:19:45 <LeeF> ... 3 weeks in ago we talked about the heartbeat requirement (3 month publishing cycle), which puts us in mid-January
15:20:15 <LeeF> ... we will focus next week on getting documents stabilized 
15:20:30 <LeeF> ... Would like document editor's to summarize changes since FPWD in a change log
15:20:35 <LeeF> s/editor's/editors
15:21:26 <LeeF> AndyS: We've integrated all of the new material with the old material
15:21:41 <LeeF> AndyS: Current lock is on formatting issues
15:21:42 <LeeF> q+
15:22:58 <Zakim> -Sandro
15:23:02 <kasei> LeeF, sorry about that. that hand raising turned out to be more trouble than it was worth :)
15:24:15 <AxelPolleres> high-level changelog summarising what has happened since FPWD
15:24:23 <LeeF> LeeF: what I had in mind was a high-level summary of major changes since FPWD 
15:24:31 <Zakim> +Sandro
15:24:44 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: AndyS to provide a high-level changelog summarising what has happened since FPWD in Query 1.1
15:24:44 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - AndyS
15:24:53 <LeeF> ACTION: Andy to provide a high-level changelog summarising what has happened since FPWD in Query 1.1
15:24:53 <trackbot> Created ACTION-148 - Provide a high-level changelog summarising what has happened since FPWD in Query 1.1 [on Andy Seaborne - due 2009-12-15].
15:25:14 <LeeF> ACTION: Paul to provide a high-level changelog summarising what has happened since FPWD in Update
15:25:14 <trackbot> Created ACTION-149 - Provide a high-level changelog summarising what has happened since FPWD in Update [on Paul Gearon - due 2009-12-15].
15:25:24 <LeeF> zakim, who's on the phone?
15:25:24 <Zakim> On the phone I see AndyS, ivanh, kasei (muted), Axel, AlexPassant, tkoivula, LeeF, Souri, pgearon, mperry, bglimm (muted), Chimezie_Ogbuji (muted), ??P35, +1.919.332.aadd, Sandro
15:25:50 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: PaulG to provide a high-level changelog summarising what has happened since FPWD in Update 1.1
15:25:50 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - PaulG
15:25:53 <dcharbon2> dcharbon2 has joined #sparql
15:26:20 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: high level change logs by next Tuesday
15:26:39 <LeeF> ... General plan is to have documents ready by Christmas, pick reviewers to review by early January, then publish
15:26:54 <AxelPolleres> q?
15:27:00 <LeeF> ack me
15:27:48 <chimezie> i hear interference
15:28:07 <dcharbon2> sorry, in a noisy place
15:28:18 <LeeF> LeeF: Protocol is still in transition to David Charboneau as new editor, no change so far from FPWD
15:28:22 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call?
15:28:22 <Zakim> On the phone I see AndyS, ivanh, kasei (muted), Axel, AlexPassant, tkoivula, LeeF, Souri, pgearon, mperry, bglimm (muted), Chimezie_Ogbuji (muted), ??P35, +1.919.332.aadd, Sandro
15:28:34 <sandro> RRSAgent, pointer?
15:28:34 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2009/12/08-sparql-irc#T15-28-34
15:28:36 <kasei> Zakim, unmute me
15:28:36 <Zakim> kasei should no longer be muted
15:28:39 <dcharbon2> zakim, mute me
15:28:39 <Zakim> sorry, dcharbon2, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
15:28:47 <LeeF> zakim, aadd is dcharbon2
15:28:47 <Zakim> +dcharbon2; got it
15:28:49 <AxelPolleres> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:28:49 <Zakim> On the phone I see AndyS, ivanh, kasei, Axel, AlexPassant, tkoivula, LeeF, Souri, pgearon, mperry, bglimm (muted), Chimezie_Ogbuji (muted), ??P35, dcharbon2, Sandro
15:28:51 <LeeF> zakim, mute dcharbon2
15:28:52 <kasei> can you hear me?
15:28:54 <Zakim> dcharbon2 should now be muted
15:28:58 <AlexPassant> no kasei 
15:29:20 <LeeF> ACTION: David and Lee to synchronize on what can be done in protocol document before next WD publication
15:29:20 <trackbot> Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - David
15:29:20 <trackbot> Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. dcharbon2, dnewman2)
15:29:24 <AndyS> q+ 
15:29:33 <LeeF> ACTION: Greg to provide a high-level changelog summarising what has happened since FPWD in Service Description
15:29:33 <trackbot> Created ACTION-150 - Provide a high-level changelog summarising what has happened since FPWD in Service Description [on Gregory Williams - due 2009-12-15].
15:29:53 <LeeF> AndyS: On service description - we talked about joint discussions with VoiD - are we taking that forward?
15:29:56 <Zakim> -AlexPassant
15:29:57 <dcharbon2> zakim, aadd is dcharbon2
15:29:57 <Zakim> sorry, dcharbon2, I do not recognize a party named 'aadd'
15:30:09 <dcharbon2> zakim, +1.919.332.aadd is dcharbon2
15:30:09 <Zakim> sorry, dcharbon2, I do not recognize a party named '+1.919.332.aadd'
15:30:29 <LeeF> kasei: Nothing yet. Intention is to make sure we're aligned with VoiD soon, now that dataset description stuff is nailed down
15:31:01 <LeeF> AndyS: Should we have a joint teleconference with them?
15:31:17 <LeeF> kasei: We can try to. Would you be interested in participating? My approach to date has been pretty informal
15:31:20 <Zakim> +??P3
15:31:54 <AlexPassant> Zakimm, ??P3 is me
15:32:12 <AndyS> If it's just me then not much point.
15:32:42 <LeeF> AndyS: Would be good to discuss who's going to do what in terms of actually describing the graphs
15:33:01 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: kasei to contact void and start a discussion on issues around SD
15:33:01 <trackbot> Created ACTION-151 - Contact void and start a discussion on issues around SD [on Gregory Williams - due 2009-12-15].
15:33:12 <kasei> Zakim, mute me
15:33:12 <Zakim> kasei should now be muted
15:33:19 <chimezie> Zakim, unmute me
15:33:19 <Zakim> Chimezie_Ogbuji should no longer be muted
15:33:21 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: last document is RDF update
15:33:38 <LeeF> ACTION: Chimezie to provide a high-level changelog summarising what has happened since FPWD in RDF Update
15:33:38 <trackbot> Created ACTION-152 - Provide a high-level changelog summarising what has happened since FPWD in RDF Update [on Chimezie Ogbuji - due 2009-12-15].
15:33:57 <bglimm> Zakim, unmute me
15:33:57 <Zakim> bglimm should no longer be muted
15:34:04 <chimezie> Zakim, mute me
15:34:04 <Zakim> Chimezie_Ogbuji should now be muted
15:34:07 <LeeF> ACTION: Birte to provide a high-level changelog summarising what has happened since FPWD in entailment
15:34:07 <trackbot> Created ACTION-153 - Provide a high-level changelog summarising what has happened since FPWD in entailment [on Birte Glimm - due 2009-12-15].
15:34:18 <LeeF> q+ to ask if we can get reviewers
15:34:25 <bglimm> Zakim, mute me
15:34:25 <Zakim> bglimm should now be muted
15:34:25 <LeeF> ack AndyS
15:34:27 <AndyS> ack me
15:35:09 <AndyS>  Urgent: agg custom syntax
15:35:40 <AndyS> ... would be nice to publish a grammar out (stretch objective)
15:36:31 <bglimm> I can do that again
15:36:36 <Souri> Matt and I can do it
15:36:47 <kasei> when would these reviews be due in?
15:36:56 <LeeF> Reviews would be due beginning of January, ideally
15:37:04 <Souri> We'll try :-)
15:37:06 <AxelPolleres> Query reviewers: Birte, Matt Souri, Axel
15:37:18 <AndyS> Yes
15:37:22 <bglimm> q+ to ask who can be reviewer
15:37:42 <LeeF__> LeeF__ has joined #sparql
15:37:52 <AndyS> I'll review for update (lang? protocol?)
15:37:55 <AxelPolleres> ack LeeF
15:37:55 <Zakim> LeeF, you wanted to ask if we can get reviewers
15:37:58 <bglimm> Zakim, unmute me
15:37:58 <Zakim> bglimm should no longer be muted
15:38:14 <ivanh> q+
15:38:20 <AxelPolleres> Update reviewers: AndyS, Axel,
15:38:26 <kasei> lots of echo
15:38:35 <AndyS> which update?
15:38:41 <LeeF__> suggest external reviewers should be in addition to internal reviewers
15:39:20 <bglimm> Ok, then I'll ask for some additional informal reviews
15:39:48 <bglimm> ack me
15:39:48 <Zakim> bglimm, you wanted to ask who can be reviewer
15:39:57 <bglimm> Zakim, mute me
15:39:57 <Zakim> bglimm should now be muted
15:40:35 <Zakim> -Chimezie_Ogbuji
15:41:13 <LeeF> Don't think it's worth getting protocol reviewers right now
15:41:31 <AlexPassant> +1 for SD review
15:41:33 <dcharbon2> I can
15:41:45 <AxelPolleres> SD reviwers: david, Alex, Axel
15:41:45 <LeeF> alex & david to review service description
15:42:12 <AndyS> Will review http-review
15:42:13 <LeeF> I'll review that rdf update on Christmas
15:42:16 <AndyS> Will review http-update
15:42:26 <kasei> I can do http-update
15:42:29 <AxelPolleres>  rdf-update: andyS, LeeF, Axel
15:42:37 <ivanh> +1
15:42:47 <ivanh> +1 for review
15:43:05 <AxelPolleres> entailment regimes review: ivanh, Axel
15:43:12 <AndyS> What about property paths?
15:43:39 <LeeF> What's the status of property paths?
15:44:18 <ivanh> +1 to Andy, a fpwd would be good
15:45:24 <ivanh> +1 to review
15:45:35 <Souri> +1
15:45:36 <LeeF> AndyS: publish property paths as its own document since it's still time permitting
15:45:51 <LeeF> property path reviewers: LeeF, ivanh, Souri
15:46:14 <mperry> +1 Property Path review
15:46:31 <LeeF> topic: scope of alias variables
15:46:43 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: Lee raised the issue, Andy made a strawman proposal
15:46:53 <AndyS> Matt, Souri - PP is http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/property-paths/Overview.xml 
15:47:06 <Souri> Thanks Andy
15:47:17 <LeeF> AndyS: what is the scope of variables introduced in select expressions - the ones after "AS"
15:47:24 <AxelPolleres> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2009OctDec/0585.html
15:47:30 <LeeF> ... what is described is a design in which you can't introduce a variable that is already used before 
15:47:44 <LeeF> ... the variable can be used in an expression that's further to the right in the select expressions list
15:47:54 <LeeF> ... also in scope for the HAVING clause 
15:47:58 <LeeF> ... not in scope for the query pattern
15:48:36 <AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/query-1.1/select-expr-defs-1-1.html
15:48:51 <LeeF> q+
15:48:53 <LeeF> ack ivanh
15:49:21 <kasei> echo again...
15:49:31 <AxelPolleres> echo, lee pleaserepeat
15:49:51 <LeeF> LeeF: I supported the alternative design that didn't allow variables to be reused in expressoins at the F2F, but I'm just as happy with Andy's proposal
15:50:24 <LeeF> that's right
15:50:39 <LeeF> AndyS: to clarify, the other design was one in which alias variables can't be used in any expressions in the select expression
15:50:41 <LeeF> ?
15:50:43 <LeeF> LeeF: Yes.
15:50:55 <LeeF> AndyS: this also covers using variables in the HAVING clause
15:51:56 <LeeF> AndyS: not the group by, but yes for having
15:52:17 <Souri> examples of valid and invalid GROUP BY HAVING?
15:52:42 <AxelPolleres> ISSUE-41, ISSUE-12
15:52:50 <AndyS> souri, there are some on the list as a starting point - do ask for more if you want
15:53:23 <LeeF> AndyS: think we need Steve to see if this couples nicely with aggregates
15:53:28 <LeeF> Souri: examples?
15:53:45 <AndyS> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/query-1.1/
15:54:19 <LeeF> Souri: there's no dependency about the variables used in the pattern and in the alias? if I use ?x in the pattern, can I say "?y+1 AS ?x" ?
15:54:32 <LeeF> AndyS: that's defined as a syntax error through a static check
15:54:42 <AndyS> See http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/query-1.1/select-expr-defs-1-1.html
15:55:21 <AxelPolleres> [...] var not in dom(μ) [...]  
15:57:38 <AxelPolleres> q?
15:57:44 <LeeF> ack me
16:00:21 <sandro> Call is out of time. Bye all.
16:00:27 <Zakim> -Sandro
16:00:56 <AxelPolleres> blocking issues?
16:00:58 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: Ask editors to identify blocking issues that need the most urgent attention
16:01:18 <AxelPolleres> will ping all editors separately again right after the TC on issues...
16:02:12 <bglimm> ok
16:02:13 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: Adjourned. 
16:02:19 <bglimm> bye
16:02:25 <LeeF> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:02:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/12/08-sparql-minutes.html LeeF
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