SPARQL Working Group Teleconference

Minutes of 08 March 2011

Agenda
http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2011-03-08
Seen
Andy Seaborne, Birte Glimm, Chimezie Ogbuji, Gregory Williams, Lee Feigenbaum, Matthew Perry, Nicholas Humfrey, Nico Michaelis, Paul Gearon, Sandro Hawke, Souripriya Das, Steve Harris
Chair
Lee Feigenbaum
Scribe
Paul Gearon
IRC Log
Original and Editable Wiki Version
Resolutions
  1. Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2011-03-01 link
  2. SPARQL 1.1 Update forbids blank nodes in DELETE templates link
Topics
14:54:44 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/03/08-sparql-irc

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14:54:46 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world

14:54:48 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 77277

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be 77277

14:54:48 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 6 minutes

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 6 minutes

14:54:49 <trackbot> Meeting: SPARQL Working Group Teleconference
14:54:49 <trackbot> Date: 08 March 2011
14:54:51 <LeeF> zakim, this will be SPARQL

Lee Feigenbaum: zakim, this will be SPARQL

14:54:51 <Zakim> ok, LeeF; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 6 minutes

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, LeeF; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 6 minutes

14:54:53 <LeeF> Chair: LeeF
14:55:02 <LeeF> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2011-03-08
14:55:13 <Zakim> SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has now started

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has now started

14:55:17 <LeeF> Scribenick: pgearon

(Scribe set to Paul Gearon)

14:55:20 <Zakim> +??P7

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P7

14:56:54 <NickH> Zakim, ??P7 is me

Nicholas Humfrey: Zakim, ??P7 is me

14:56:54 <Zakim> +NickH; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +NickH; got it

14:57:18 <Zakim> +LeeF

Zakim IRC Bot: +LeeF

14:57:29 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller]

14:57:36 <AndyS> zakim, IPCaller is me

Andy Seaborne: zakim, IPCaller is me

14:57:36 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS; got it

14:57:42 <Zakim> +NicoM

Zakim IRC Bot: +NicoM

14:57:52 <Zakim> +kasei

Zakim IRC Bot: +kasei

14:58:43 <kasei> Zakim, mute me

Gregory Williams: Zakim, mute me

14:58:43 <Zakim> kasei should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: kasei should now be muted

14:59:49 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller]

14:59:57 <SteveH> Zakim, [IPcaller] is me

Steve Harris: Zakim, [IPcaller] is me

14:59:57 <Zakim> +SteveH; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +SteveH; got it

15:00:10 <Zakim> +Sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: +Sandro

15:00:20 <Zakim> +pgearon

Zakim IRC Bot: +pgearon

15:00:48 <Zakim> + +1.216.368.aaaa

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.216.368.aaaa

15:00:54 <chimezie> Zakim, +1.216.368.aaaa is me

Chimezie Ogbuji: Zakim, +1.216.368.aaaa is me

15:00:54 <Zakim> +chimezie; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +chimezie; got it

15:01:13 <Zakim> +MattPerry

Zakim IRC Bot: +MattPerry

15:01:43 <LeeF> zakim, who's on the phone?

Lee Feigenbaum: zakim, who's on the phone?

15:01:43 <Zakim> On the phone I see NickH, LeeF, AndyS, NicoM, kasei (muted), SteveH, Sandro, pgearon, chimezie, MattPerry

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see NickH, LeeF, AndyS, NicoM, kasei (muted), SteveH, Sandro, pgearon, chimezie, MattPerry

15:02:25 <LeeF> topic: Admin

1. Admin

15:02:26 <LeeF> PROPOSED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2011-03-01

PROPOSED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2011-03-01

15:03:02 <LeeF> RESOLVED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2011-03-01

RESOLVED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2011-03-01

15:03:13 <LeeF> Next regular meeting: 2011-03-15 @ 14:00 UK / 10:00 EST (scribe: Andy S) NOTE DIFFERENT TIME FOR NON-US LOCATIONS

Lee Feigenbaum: Next regular meeting: 2011-03-15 @ 14:00 UK / 10:00 EST (scribe: Andy S) NOTE DIFFERENT TIME FOR NON-US LOCATIONS

15:05:31 <LeeF> topic: To Last Call

2. To Last Call

15:06:33 <LeeF> bglimm, we are wondering if you intend to look at the formal section of SPARQL Query when you have a chance?

Lee Feigenbaum: bglimm, we are wondering if you intend to look at the formal section of SPARQL Query when you have a chance?

15:07:04 <pgearon> SteveH: Query in the same state as last time

Steve Harris: Query in the same state as last time

15:07:12 <Zakim> +bglimm

Zakim IRC Bot: +bglimm

15:07:25 <chimezie> Zakim, mute me

Chimezie Ogbuji: Zakim, mute me

15:07:25 <Zakim> chimezie should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: chimezie should now be muted

15:08:11 <pgearon> bglimm: will still have a look at the formal section soon

Birte Glimm: will still have a look at the formal section soon

15:08:56 <pgearon> Not much happened. The main thing still outstanding is the BNode issue

Not much happened. The main thing still outstanding is the BNode issue

15:09:11 <pgearon> If there's anything else that needs doing, then someone should point it out

If there's anything else that needs doing, then someone should point it out

15:09:32 <pgearon> I was under the impression that all outstanding issues were handled (except test data)

I was under the impression that all outstanding issues were handled (except test data)

15:09:37 <kasei> right

Gregory Williams: right

15:10:18 <pgearon> for AndyS... That was a few weeks ago now, so my memory isn't clear, but I think so yes

for AndyS... That was a few weeks ago now, so my memory isn't clear, but I think so yes

15:11:04 <pgearon> LeeF: AndyS and kasei to be asked to review Update at their convenience

Lee Feigenbaum: AndyS and kasei to be asked to review Update at their convenience

15:11:17 <bglimm> Zakim, mute me

Birte Glimm: Zakim, mute me

15:11:17 <Zakim> bglimm should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: bglimm should now be muted

15:11:58 <LeeF> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/protocol-1.1/Overview2.xml

Lee Feigenbaum: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/protocol-1.1/Overview2.xml

15:12:42 <pgearon> LeeF: some progress for "Protocol"

Lee Feigenbaum: some progress for "Protocol"

15:12:54 <kasei> Zakim, unmute me

Gregory Williams: Zakim, unmute me

15:12:54 <Zakim> kasei should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: kasei should no longer be muted

15:13:10 <pgearon> topic: Service Description

3. Service Description

15:13:55 <LeeF> "Add link to discussion on empty graphs in the Update document (when such a section exists) "

Lee Feigenbaum: "Add link to discussion on empty graphs in the Update document (when such a section exists) "

15:14:47 <pgearon> for LeeF: no, I wasn't

for LeeF: no, I wasn't

15:15:34 <pgearon> kasei: service description describes dropping empty graphs

Gregory Williams: service description describes dropping empty graphs

15:16:00 <pgearon> kasei: supporting empty graphs

Gregory Williams: supporting empty graphs

15:16:11 <pgearon> LeeF: this needs to have some reference in the Update document

Lee Feigenbaum: this needs to have some reference in the Update document

15:16:36 <LeeF> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/update-1.1/Overview.xml#graphUpdate

Lee Feigenbaum: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/update-1.1/Overview.xml#graphUpdate

15:17:21 <pgearon> kasei: Update doc describes dropping graphs. Not clear from this description if it describes supporting empty graphs

Gregory Williams: Update doc describes dropping graphs. Not clear from this description if it describes supporting empty graphs

15:17:58 <pgearon> LeeF: Update may not need to say what is supported in a store. Service description can describe this

Lee Feigenbaum: Update may not need to say what is supported in a store. Service description can describe this

15:18:59 <LeeF> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/service-description-1.1/xmlspec.xml#sd-emptygraphs

Lee Feigenbaum: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/service-description-1.1/xmlspec.xml#sd-emptygraphs

15:19:14 <LeeF> ACTION: Lee to propose text for SD document explaining 3.4.7 sd:EmptyGraphs

ACTION: Lee to propose text for SD document explaining 3.4.7 sd:EmptyGraphs

15:19:15 <trackbot> Created ACTION-406 - Propose text for SD document explaining 3.4.7 sd:EmptyGraphs [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2011-03-15].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-406 - Propose text for SD document explaining 3.4.7 sd:EmptyGraphs [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2011-03-15].

15:19:43 <pgearon> In the DROP section I was trying to describe how a store would behave in the 2 situations: 1. supporting empty graphs. 2. Not recording empty graphs. I tried hard not to commit to saying what should/should not be supported

In the DROP section I was trying to describe how a store would behave in the 2 situations: 1. supporting empty graphs. 2. Not recording empty graphs. I tried hard not to commit to saying what should/should not be supported

15:20:09 <LeeF> pgearon, thanks, I'll take a look at that too

Lee Feigenbaum: pgearon, thanks, I'll take a look at that too

15:20:28 <pgearon> kasei: would like someone to glance at conformance section for service description

Gregory Williams: would like someone to glance at conformance section for service description

15:21:16 <pgearon> kasei: conformance section says, "must include one triple". AndyS would like this to say, "must include at least one triple"

Gregory Williams: conformance section says, "must include one triple". AndyS would like this to say, "must include at least one triple"

15:21:23 <LeeF> ACTION: Greg to change conformance section in SD to refer to including "at least" one triple...

ACTION: Greg to change conformance section in SD to refer to including "at least" one triple...

15:21:23 <trackbot> Created ACTION-407 - Change conformance section in SD to refer to including "at least" one triple... [on Gregory Williams - due 2011-03-15].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-407 - Change conformance section in SD to refer to including "at least" one triple... [on Gregory Williams - due 2011-03-15].

15:21:24 <SteveH> +1 to that

Steve Harris: +1 to that

15:21:33 <LeeF> ACTION: Andy to look over current conformance section in service description modulo "at least" change from ACTION-407

ACTION: Andy to look over current conformance section in service description modulo "at least" change from ACTION-407

15:21:33 <trackbot> Created ACTION-408 - Look over current conformance section in service description modulo "at least" change from ACTION-407 [on Andy Seaborne - due 2011-03-15].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-408 - Look over current conformance section in service description modulo "at least" change from ACTION-407 [on Andy Seaborne - due 2011-03-15].

15:21:56 <pgearon> topic: HTTP protocol document

4. HTTP protocol document

15:21:59 <kasei> Zakim, mute me

Gregory Williams: Zakim, mute me

15:21:59 <Zakim> kasei should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: kasei should now be muted

15:22:11 <chimezie> Zakim, unmute me

Chimezie Ogbuji: Zakim, unmute me

15:22:11 <Zakim> chimezie should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: chimezie should no longer be muted

15:22:57 <pgearon> LeeF: comments on relationship to service description. Also comment from Leigh Dodds with other operations that might be included

Lee Feigenbaum: comments on relationship to service description. Also comment from Leigh Dodds with other operations that might be included

15:23:29 <pgearon> chimezie: Thinks that operations in POST are beyond scope, but we should have this discussion

Chimezie Ogbuji: Thinks that operations in POST are beyond scope, but we should have this discussion

15:23:47 <pgearon> LeeF: will come back to new operations

Lee Feigenbaum: will come back to new operations

15:24:05 <pgearon> LeeF: SteveH still has pending review on this doc

Lee Feigenbaum: SteveH still has pending review on this doc

15:24:18 <pgearon> LeeF: Entailment document

Lee Feigenbaum: Entailment document

15:24:34 <bglimm> Zakim, unmute me

Birte Glimm: Zakim, unmute me

15:24:34 <Zakim> bglimm should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: bglimm should no longer be muted

15:24:53 <pgearon> LeeF: received review from Jay. Should mark this off on Wiki page. Still waiting on review from Clark and Parsia

Lee Feigenbaum: received review from Jay. Should mark this off on Wiki page. Still waiting on review from Clark and Parsia

15:25:29 <pgearon> LeeF: to bglimm, should we discuss D-entailment today?

Lee Feigenbaum: to bglimm, should we discuss D-entailment today?

15:26:29 <pgearon> LeeF: JSON doc waiting for reviewers to have some time

Lee Feigenbaum: JSON doc waiting for reviewers to have some time

15:26:33 <bglimm> I reminded C&P (talked o Hector) and he'll try to push Evren who is doing the review

Birte Glimm: I reminded C&P (talked o Hector) and he'll try to push Evren who is doing the review

15:26:36 <chimezie> Zakim, mute me

Chimezie Ogbuji: Zakim, mute me

15:26:36 <Zakim> chimezie should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: chimezie should now be muted

15:27:40 <pgearon> LeeF: can people please consider tests as we get closer to LC

Lee Feigenbaum: can people please consider tests as we get closer to LC

15:28:17 <pgearon> LeeF: also need to review existing tests, as these have taken a back seat to editorial issues recently

Lee Feigenbaum: also need to review existing tests, as these have taken a back seat to editorial issues recently

15:28:19 <AndyS> 405 is done

Andy Seaborne: 405 is done

15:28:34 <bglimm> I think I had one, which I completed, but can't remember what it was

Birte Glimm: I think I had one, which I completed, but can't remember what it was

15:28:42 <AndyS> .. that was 405.

Andy Seaborne: .. that was 405.

15:28:50 <bglimm> I'll search for it

Birte Glimm: I'll search for it

15:28:56 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-405

Lee Feigenbaum: trackbot, close ACTION-405

15:28:57 <trackbot> ACTION-405 Draft xml for revised Extending BGP matching section for query closed

Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-405 Draft xml for revised Extending BGP matching section for query closed

15:28:58 <kasei> LeeF, I've completed 396 and 403

Gregory Williams: LeeF, I've completed 396 and 403

15:28:59 <bglimm> Thans

Birte Glimm: Thanks

15:29:07 <bglimm> s/Thans/Thanks/
15:29:14 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-396

Lee Feigenbaum: trackbot, close ACTION-396

15:29:14 <trackbot> ACTION-396 Contact chime on Dataset Update Protocol issue closed

Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-396 Contact chime on Dataset Update Protocol issue closed

15:29:28 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-403

Lee Feigenbaum: trackbot, close ACTION-403

15:29:28 <trackbot> ACTION-403 Answer to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2011JanMar/0369.html with counterexample to JB-2 closed

Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-403 Answer to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2011JanMar/0369.html with counterexample to JB-2 closed

15:29:37 <bglimm> 398 I also did

Birte Glimm: 398 I also did

15:29:47 <bglimm> prepare test cases for approval

Birte Glimm: prepare test cases for approval

15:29:51 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-398

Lee Feigenbaum: trackbot, close ACTION-398

15:29:51 <trackbot> ACTION-398 Prepare entailment tests for next week for approval closed

Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-398 Prepare entailment tests for next week for approval closed

15:29:57 <bglimm> Axel looked at them too

Birte Glimm: Axel looked at them too

15:30:06 <LeeF> topic: Blank nodes in DELETE templates

5. Blank nodes in DELETE templates

15:30:08 <pgearon> LeeF: Next topic. Blank nodes in DELETE templates

Lee Feigenbaum: Next topic. Blank nodes in DELETE templates

15:31:20 <pgearon> LeeF: resolution was for blank nodes to represent wildcards when deleting

Lee Feigenbaum: resolution was for blank nodes to represent wildcards when deleting

15:31:39 <LeeF> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2011JanMar/0409.html

Lee Feigenbaum: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2011JanMar/0409.html

15:31:44 <pgearon> LeeF: recently SteveH, AndyS, pgearon found issues around implementation

Lee Feigenbaum: recently SteveH, AndyS, pgearon found issues around implementation

15:32:13 <SteveH> andy didn't capture my preference which was make it an error

Steve Harris: andy didn't capture my preference which was make it an error

15:32:14 <pgearon> LeeF: AndyS also did work on how to delete lists without this "shortcut"

Lee Feigenbaum: AndyS also did work on how to delete lists without this "shortcut"

15:32:31 <LeeF> PROPOSED: SPARQL 1.1 Update forbids blank nodes in DELETE templates

PROPOSED: SPARQL 1.1 Update forbids blank nodes in DELETE templates

15:33:07 <SteveH> seconded

Steve Harris: seconded

15:33:10 <bglimm> seconded

Birte Glimm: seconded

15:33:11 <pgearon> LeeF: does anyone have anything further to discuss on this, or serious concerns?

Lee Feigenbaum: does anyone have anything further to discuss on this, or serious concerns?

15:33:26 <LeeF> RESOLVED: SPARQL 1.1 Update forbids blank nodes in DELETE templates

RESOLVED: SPARQL 1.1 Update forbids blank nodes in DELETE templates

15:33:43 <pgearon> Sure

Sure

15:34:00 <pgearon> I'll change it either way, but an action helps track it

I'll change it either way, but an action helps track it

15:34:02 <LeeF> ACTION: Paul to edit Update document to note that blank nodes in DELETE templates are an error

ACTION: Paul to edit Update document to note that blank nodes in DELETE templates are an error

15:34:03 <trackbot> Created ACTION-409 - Edit Update document to note that blank nodes in DELETE templates are an error [on Paul Gearon - due 2011-03-15].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-409 - Edit Update document to note that blank nodes in DELETE templates are an error [on Paul Gearon - due 2011-03-15].

15:34:20 <LeeF> topic: Dataset protocol & service description

6. Dataset protocol & service description

15:35:14 <pgearon> LeeF: service description initially conceived as description of features and capabilities of endpoints supporting SPARQL protocol

Lee Feigenbaum: service description initially conceived as description of features and capabilities of endpoints supporting SPARQL protocol

15:35:45 <pgearon> LeeF: scope expanded to description of things like endpoint URLs

Lee Feigenbaum: scope expanded to description of things like endpoint URLs

15:36:45 <pgearon> LeeF: do we need additions to service description to include dataset protocol. Preference is to not make large changes

Lee Feigenbaum: do we need additions to service description to include dataset protocol. Preference is to not make large changes

15:36:49 <chimezie> Zakim, unmute me

Chimezie Ogbuji: Zakim, unmute me

15:36:49 <Zakim> chimezie should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: chimezie should no longer be muted

15:37:15 <chimezie> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2011Feb/0013.html

Chimezie Ogbuji: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2011Feb/0013.html

15:37:19 <chimezie> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2011Jan/0029.html

Chimezie Ogbuji: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2011Jan/0029.html

15:37:23 <pgearon> chimezie: main comments are from Leigh Dodds and Rob Vesse

Chimezie Ogbuji: main comments are from Leigh Dodds and Rob Vesse

15:37:38 <pgearon> chimezie: Leigh wants to do GET/PUT on protocol

Chimezie Ogbuji: Leigh wants to do GET/PUT on graph store

15:37:47 <LeeF> s/protocol/graph store
15:38:30 <LeeF> Leigh asks: how do you find the URL to POST new graphs to?

Lee Feigenbaum: Leigh asks: how do you find the URL to POST new graphs to?

15:38:47 <pgearon> chimezie: Leigh has question on graph store being a dataset, but don't think it is

Chimezie Ogbuji: Leigh has question on graph store being a dataset, but don't think it is

15:39:05 <LeeF> Leigh would also want to implement the dataset protocol without exposing SPARQL query or SPARQL update endpoints, but SD document assumes that you're talking about SPARQL protocol & not dataset protocol

Lee Feigenbaum: Leigh would also want to implement the dataset protocol without exposing SPARQL query or SPARQL update endpoints, but SD document assumes that you're talking about SPARQL protocol & not dataset protocol

15:39:20 <LeeF> Rob V says similar comments

Lee Feigenbaum: Rob V says similar comments

15:40:01 <LeeF> Greg proposed including a RESTDataset class, but not more substantive changes at this time

Lee Feigenbaum: Greg proposed including a RESTDataset class, but not more substantive changes at this time

15:40:06 <Zakim> -NickH

Zakim IRC Bot: -NickH

15:40:26 <LeeF> chimezie: there's currently an informative section in dataset protocol document talking about relationship with SD

Chimezie Ogbuji: there's currently an informative section in dataset protocol document talking about relationship with SD [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

15:40:33 <chimezie> sd:RESTDataset

Souripriya Das: RESTDataset [ Scribe Assist by Chimezie Ogbuji ]

15:40:33 <LeeF> ... could introduce vocabulary there

Lee Feigenbaum: ... could introduce vocabulary there

15:40:39 <chimezie> sd:defaultGraphStoreDescription

Souripriya Das: defaultGraphStoreDescription [ Scribe Assist by Chimezie Ogbuji ]

15:41:20 <kasei> I don't understand what sd:defaultGraphStoreDescription would mean.

Gregory Williams: I don't understand what sd:defaultGraphStoreDescription would mean.

15:41:26 <LeeF> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/http-rdf-update/#http-option

Lee Feigenbaum: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/http-rdf-update/#http-option

15:41:39 <Zakim> +??P7

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P7

15:41:46 <NickH> Zakim, ??P7 is me

Nicholas Humfrey: Zakim, ??P7 is me

15:41:46 <Zakim> +NickH; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +NickH; got it

15:42:05 <LeeF> q+ to ask if it really needs to support update

Lee Feigenbaum: q+ to ask if it really needs to support update

15:42:44 <pgearon> chimezie: current relationship between services and dataset in the service desc doc

Chimezie Ogbuji: current relationship between services and dataset in the service desc doc

15:42:52 <chimezie> sd:defaultDatasetDescription

Souripriya Das: defaultDatasetDescription [ Scribe Assist by Chimezie Ogbuji ]

15:43:07 <pgearon> chimezie: can't reuse this term because the range is Dataset

Chimezie Ogbuji: can't reuse this term because the range is Dataset

15:43:09 <LeeF> the range of that term is sd:Dataset

Lee Feigenbaum: the range of that term is sd:Dataset

15:43:25 <pgearon> chimezie: my understanding is that a graph store is not a dataset

Chimezie Ogbuji: my understanding is that a graph store is not a dataset

15:43:28 <AndyS> q+ to talk about g-boxes and g-snaps

Andy Seaborne: q+ to talk about g-boxes and g-snaps

15:43:28 <kasei> Zakim, unmute me

Gregory Williams: Zakim, unmute me

15:43:30 <Zakim> kasei should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: kasei should no longer be muted

15:43:38 <pgearon> chimezie: new term would be the same thing, but relates service to a graph store instead

Chimezie Ogbuji: new term would be the same thing, but relates service to a graph store instead

15:43:51 <pgearon> LeeF: do we need to define a graph store class?

Lee Feigenbaum: do we need to define a graph store class?

15:44:35 <LeeF> chimezie: the object of the sd:defaultGraphStoreDescription would be the URL against which dataset protocol operations should be sent

Chimezie Ogbuji: the object of the sd:defaultGraphStoreDescription would be the URL against which dataset protocol operations should be sent [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

15:44:52 <LeeF> kasei: but it's the dataset protocol, not the graph store protocol?

Gregory Williams: but it's the dataset protocol, not the graph store protocol? [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

15:45:14 <sandro> q+

Sandro Hawke: q+

15:46:01 <LeeF> what about sd:datasetProtocolLocation or something ?

Lee Feigenbaum: what about sd:datasetProtocolLocation or something ?

15:46:02 <sandro> q+ to say I think a dataset can be mutable even if a graph isn't -- in changing it, you're changing what graphs are in it

Sandro Hawke: q+ to say I think a dataset can be mutable even if a graph isn't -- in changing it, you're changing what graphs are in it

15:46:15 <pgearon> chimezie: if we're going to say that a graph store is not a dataset then don't know if protocol or SD docs are the place to say that

Chimezie Ogbuji: if we're going to say that a graph store is not a dataset then don't know if protocol or SD docs are the place to say that

15:46:25 <LeeF> ack AndyS

Lee Feigenbaum: ack AndyS

15:46:25 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to talk about g-boxes and g-snaps

Zakim IRC Bot: AndyS, you wanted to talk about g-boxes and g-snaps

15:47:23 <sandro> (but datasets in SPARQL *do* change, right?)

Sandro Hawke: (but datasets in SPARQL *do* change, right?)

15:47:58 <kasei> isn't the dataset protocol about moving from one dataset to another?

Gregory Williams: isn't the dataset protocol about moving from one dataset to another?

15:48:05 <LeeF> sandro: don't all existing implementations of SPARQL 1.0 involve datasets changing?

Sandro Hawke: don't all existing implementations of SPARQL 1.0 involve datasets changing? [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

15:48:41 <LeeF> AndyS: it's not the dataset which is changing, it's what the service is currently supporting that is changing

Andy Seaborne: it's not the dataset which is changing, it's what the service is currently supporting that is changing [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

15:48:56 <LeeF> sandro: do people conceptualize this as replacing one dataset from another ?

Sandro Hawke: do people conceptualize this as replacing one dataset from another ? [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

15:49:06 <chimezie> thread on mutability of datasets and graphs: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2010Oct/0038.html

Chimezie Ogbuji: thread on mutability of datasets and graphs: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2010Oct/0038.html

15:49:15 <LeeF> AndyS: not necessarily, but in the same way that people using a programming language think of sets as mutable, even though mathematical sets are immutable

Andy Seaborne: not necessarily, but in the same way that people using a programming language think of sets as mutable, even though mathematical sets are immutable [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

15:49:27 <LeeF> sandro: wonder if treating datasets as a mutable structure is a simple way to deal with this ?

Sandro Hawke: wonder if treating datasets as a mutable structure is a simple way to deal with this ? [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

15:49:35 <LeeF> AndyS: we call the mutable structure a graph store

Andy Seaborne: we call the mutable structure a graph store [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

15:50:07 <LeeF> sandro: seems somewhat confusing to draw this distinction

Sandro Hawke: seems somewhat confusing to draw this distinction [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

15:50:15 <LeeF> AndyS: changing update document to remove term "graph store" would be a big change

Andy Seaborne: changing update document to remove term "graph store" would be a big change [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

15:51:22 <pgearon> AndyS: the slight trick is that we don't put datasets on the web. We put graphs on the web

Andy Seaborne: the slight trick is that we don't put datasets on the web. We put graphs on the web

15:51:37 <pgearon> AndyS: don't have a theory of datasets as computational objects

Andy Seaborne: don't have a theory of datasets as computational objects

15:51:40 <Zakim> -bglimm

Zakim IRC Bot: -bglimm

15:52:21 <kasei> q+

Gregory Williams: q+

15:52:25 <LeeF> AndyS: is it a dataset protocol?

Andy Seaborne: is it a dataset protocol? [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

15:52:38 <Zakim> + +41.86.528.aabb

Zakim IRC Bot: + +41.86.528.aabb

15:52:47 <bglimm> Zakim, +41.86.528.aabb is me

Birte Glimm: Zakim, +41.86.528.aabb is me

15:52:47 <Zakim> +bglimm; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +bglimm; got it

15:52:58 <bglimm> Zakim, mute me

Birte Glimm: Zakim, mute me

15:52:58 <Zakim> bglimm should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: bglimm should now be muted

15:53:19 <LeeF> ack kasei

Lee Feigenbaum: ack kasei

15:53:25 <AndyS> q-

Andy Seaborne: q-

15:53:44 <LeeF> kasei: hesitant to split up definition of SD across multiple documents

Gregory Williams: hesitant to split up definition of SD across multiple documents [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

15:53:57 <LeeF> ... there's a lot of value to having it contained to one document

Lee Feigenbaum: ... there's a lot of value to having it contained to one document

15:54:28 <LeeF> kasei: would sd:defaultGraphStoreDescription be used in addition to sd:defaultDatasetDescription for services that implement both protocols?

Gregory Williams: would sd:defaultGraphStoreDescription be used in addition to sd:defaultDatasetDescription for services that implement both protocols? [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

15:54:35 <LeeF> chimezie: the name probably isn't great

Chimezie Ogbuji: the name probably isn't great [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

15:54:47 <LeeF> chimezie: my intuition is that it would use both

Chimezie Ogbuji: my intuition is that it would use both [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

15:54:51 <sandro> q-

Sandro Hawke: q-

15:55:45 <LeeF> kasei: i thought we accomplish this already by typing an existing dataset as a RESTDataset

Gregory Williams: i thought we accomplish this already by typing an existing dataset as a RESTDataset [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

15:56:18 <LeeF> chimezie: we don't have an explicit axiom saying a RESTDataset is disjoint from a Dataset, but there's an implication that they are disjoint, so it would be confusing to use them in that way

Chimezie Ogbuji: we don't have an explicit axiom saying a RESTDataset is disjoint from a Dataset, but there's an implication that they are disjoint, so it would be confusing to use them in that way [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

15:56:37 <LeeF> kasei: we may run into problems because people are not going to understand that they're disjoint

Gregory Williams: we may run into problems because people are not going to understand that they're disjoint [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

15:56:53 <LeeF> kasei: i think of one as a mutable version of the other, or an access point to move from one dataset to the next

Gregory Williams: i think of one as a mutable version of the other, or an access point to move from one dataset to the next [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

15:57:28 <LeeF> chimezie: via Leigh's comments, the question is out there as to the relationship between a graph store and a dataset

Chimezie Ogbuji: via Leigh's comments, the question is out there as to the relationship between a graph store and a dataset [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

16:00:29 <LeeF> q-

Lee Feigenbaum: q-

16:02:03 <NickH> is it decided if a GET to a SPARQL endpoint returns the service description?

Nicholas Humfrey: is it decided if a GET to a SPARQL endpoint returns the service description?

16:02:15 <kasei> NickH, yes

Gregory Williams: NickH, yes

16:02:30 <Zakim> -chimezie

Zakim IRC Bot: -chimezie

16:02:32 <MattPerry> bye

Matthew Perry: bye

16:02:33 <Zakim> -LeeF

Zakim IRC Bot: -LeeF

16:02:37 <Zakim> -NicoM

Zakim IRC Bot: -NicoM

16:02:40 <Zakim> -bglimm

Zakim IRC Bot: -bglimm

16:02:42 <Zakim> -AndyS

Zakim IRC Bot: -AndyS

16:02:43 <Zakim> -kasei

Zakim IRC Bot: -kasei

16:02:43 <Zakim> -MattPerry

Zakim IRC Bot: -MattPerry

16:02:45 <Zakim> -pgearon

Zakim IRC Bot: -pgearon

16:02:49 <NickH> kasei: ok, thanks

Gregory Williams: ok, thanks [ Scribe Assist by Nicholas Humfrey ]

16:02:54 <Zakim> -NickH

Zakim IRC Bot: -NickH

16:02:59 <Zakim> -SteveH

Zakim IRC Bot: -SteveH

16:03:09 <LeeF> LeeF: With chair hat on, I'm very tempted to say that given resource and experience constraints, that SD is only about SPARQL protocol and is unrelated to the dataset protocol

Lee Feigenbaum: With chair hat on, I'm very tempted to say that given resource and experience constraints, that SD is only about SPARQL protocol and is unrelated to the dataset protocol [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

16:03:38 <LeeF> NickH, yes, see http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/service-description-1.1/xmlspec.xml#accessing

Lee Feigenbaum: NickH, yes, see http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/service-description-1.1/xmlspec.xml#accessing

16:03:55 <LeeF> pgearon, can you do the http://www.w3.org/2009/CommonScribe/panel/ magic to generate the minutes, please?

Lee Feigenbaum: pgearon, can you do the http://www.w3.org/2009/CommonScribe/panel/ magic to generate the minutes, please?

16:04:03 <pgearon> sure

sure

16:04:07 <LeeF> many thanks

Lee Feigenbaum: many thanks

16:06:44 <NickH> LeeF: thanks, just checking if that has been confirmed

Lee Feigenbaum: thanks, just checking if that has been confirmed [ Scribe Assist by Nicholas Humfrey ]



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This revision (#1) generated 2011-03-08 19:06:44 UTC by 'pgearon', comments: 'Added topics. Thanks to LeeF for picking up the slack on scribing'