slight preference in today's group for including shortcuts - motivation is ease of use of language, ease of optimization
14:57:05 <trackbot> Meeting: SPARQL Working Group Teleconference
14:57:05 <trackbot> Date: 09 November 2010
14:57:00 <RRSAgent> Present: LeeF, Souri, pgearon, kasei, cbuilara, AndyS
14:57:22 <LeeF> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2010-11-09
14:57:24 <LeeF> Chair: LeeF
14:58:00 <LeeF> Regrets: Axel, Alex, Ivan, bglimm, NickH, Olivier, SteveH
15:04:23 <AndyS> scribenick: AndyS
(Scribe set to Andy Seaborne)
15:04:28 <AndyS> Scribe: Andy Seaborne
15:04:28 <cbuilara> I will add my self to the scribe list
Carlos Buil Aranda: I will add my self to the scribe list ←
15:04:38 <LeeF> topic: Admin
15:04:39 <LeeF> PROPOSED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2010-11-02
PROPOSED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2010-11-02 ←
15:05:57 <LeeF> RESOLVED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2010-11-02
RESOLVED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2010-11-02 ←
15:06:18 <LeeF> Next regular meeting: 2010-11-16 @ 15:00 UK / 10:00 EST (Scribe: Chime with NickH as backup)
Lee Feigenbaum: Next regular meeting: 2010-11-16 @ 15:00 UK / 10:00 EST (Scribe: Chime with NickH as backup) ←
15:06:34 <LeeF> Regrets next week: LeeF
Lee Feigenbaum: Regrets next week: LeeF ←
15:06:59 <AndyS> Partial meeting due to ISWC
Partial meeting due to ISWC ←
15:07:02 <LeeF> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/16
Lee Feigenbaum: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/16 ←
15:09:00 <kasei> q+
Gregory Williams: q+ ←
15:09:07 <LeeF> ack kasei
Lee Feigenbaum: ack kasei ←
15:09:51 <AndyS> Consensus emerging around text in doc : e.g. strict sum using op:numeric-add
Consensus emerging around text in doc : e.g. strict sum using op:numeric-add ←
15:10:20 <AndyS> q+
q+ ←
15:10:51 <AndyS> q-
q- ←
15:10:54 <LeeF> for next week: PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-16 by noting that aggregates define their semantics over mixed data types which can include errors, errors that propagate to a SELECT list result in an unbound variable, errors that propagate to GROUP BY clause result in an "unbound" key
Lee Feigenbaum: for next week: PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-16 by noting that aggregates define their semantics over mixed data types which can include errors, errors that propagate to a SELECT list result in an unbound variable, errors that propagate to GROUP BY clause result in an "unbound" key ←
15:11:09 <AndyS> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/query-1.1/rq25.xml#setFunctions
http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/query-1.1/rq25.xml#setFunctions ←
15:12:04 <LeeF> AndyS: formal section will say that syntax -> algebra is 3 steps (instead of current 2)
Andy Seaborne: formal section will say that syntax -> algebra is 3 steps (instead of current 2) [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ] ←
15:12:08 <LeeF> ... graph patterns, grouping, solution modifiers
Lee Feigenbaum: ... graph patterns, grouping, solution modifiers ←
15:12:42 <LeeF> ... grouping works over multisets, solution modifiers work over sequences
Lee Feigenbaum: ... grouping works over multisets, solution modifiers work over sequences ←
15:16:04 <pgearon> +q
Paul Gearon: +q ←
15:16:22 <LeeF> ACTION: Lee to review the text that contributes to the proposed resolution of ISSUE-16
ACTION: Lee to review the text that contributes to the proposed resolution of ISSUE-16 ←
15:16:22 <trackbot> Created ACTION-332 - Review the text that contributes to the proposed resolution of ISSUE-16 [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2010-11-16].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-332 - Review the text that contributes to the proposed resolution of ISSUE-16 [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2010-11-16]. ←
15:16:24 <AndyS> ack pgearon
ack pgearon ←
15:16:27 <LeeF> ack pgearon
Lee Feigenbaum: ack pgearon ←
15:16:49 <AndyS> pgearon: Q about differing types for sum:
Paul Gearon: Q about differing types for sum: ←
15:17:53 <AndyS> LeeF: defn using op:numeric-add => error to add non-number.
Lee Feigenbaum: defn using op:numeric-add => error to add non-number. ←
15:18:22 <AndyS> ... when used in SELECT expressions erro=> unbound (extend operator)
... when used in SELECT expressions erro=> unbound (extend operator) ←
15:19:38 <pgearon> q-
Paul Gearon: q- ←
15:19:48 <LeeF> pgearon: not clear from text what happens when an error is encountered midway through a SUM evaluation
Paul Gearon: not clear from text what happens when an error is encountered midway through a SUM evaluation [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ] ←
15:20:17 <LeeF> topic: update shortcuts
Summary: slight preference in today's group for including shortcuts - motivation is ease of use of language, ease of optimization
15:20:18 <LeeF> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/update-1.1/shortcuts.xml
Lee Feigenbaum: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/update-1.1/shortcuts.xml ←
15:21:12 <AndyS> LeeF: concerns at shortcuts this early in life of SPARQL 1.1
Lee Feigenbaum: concerns at shortcuts this early in life of SPARQL 1.1 ←
15:22:14 <AndyS> ... Shortcuts: ADD, MOVE, COPY
... Shortcuts: ADD, MOVE, COPY ←
15:22:39 <kasei> I'm mildly opposed to the shortcuts. Same concerns as LeeF.
Gregory Williams: I'm mildly opposed to the shortcuts. Same concerns as LeeF. ←
15:22:44 <AndyS> ... analogs of the file operations and similar to REST operations.
... analogs of the file operations and similar to REST operations. ←
15:22:46 <Souri> ADD => is the semantics like a MERGE? b/c we may have duplicates
Souripriya Das: ADD => is the semantics like a MERGE? b/c we may have duplicates ←
15:22:56 <Souri> q+
Souripriya Das: q+ ←
15:23:01 <LeeF> ack Souri
Lee Feigenbaum: ack Souri ←
15:24:15 <AndyS> AndyS: Usage experience - quickly started using them after adding them for remote admin of datasets.
Andy Seaborne: Usage experience - quickly started using them after adding them for remote admin of datasets. ←
15:24:18 <AndyS> Strawpoll:
STRAWPOLL: ←
15:24:26 <LeeF> straw poll on proposed ADD/COPY/MOVE update shortcuts (+1/0/-1):
Lee Feigenbaum: straw poll on proposed ADD/COPY/MOVE update shortcuts (+1/0/-1): ←
15:24:31 <AndyS> +1
+1 ←
15:24:32 <LeeF> -1
Lee Feigenbaum: -1 ←
15:24:33 <kasei> -1
Gregory Williams: -1 ←
15:24:33 <Souri> +1
Souripriya Das: +1 ←
15:24:34 <pgearon> 0
Paul Gearon: 0 ←
15:25:25 <cbuilara> +1
Carlos Buil Aranda: +1 ←
15:26:24 <Souri> q+
Souripriya Das: q+ ←
15:26:40 <LeeF> LeeF: I am motivated a bit by hearing positive implementation and usage experience from AndyS
Lee Feigenbaum: I am motivated a bit by hearing positive implementation and usage experience from AndyS [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ] ←
15:26:43 <LeeF> ack Souri
Lee Feigenbaum: ack Souri ←
15:27:23 <LeeF> Souri: easier to spot optimizations for the shortcut operations
Souripriya Das: easier to spot optimizations for the shortcut operations [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ] ←
15:28:00 <LeeF> summary: slight preference in today's group for including shortcuts - motivation is ease of use of language, ease of optimization
15:28:17 <LeeF> topic: grouping by expressions
15:28:27 <AndyS> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2010OctDec/0187.html
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2010OctDec/0187.html ←
15:28:45 <LeeF> (btw, the last conversation dealt with ISSUE-59)
Lee Feigenbaum: (btw, the last conversation dealt with ISSUE-59) ←
15:29:22 <AndyS> (no issue for the issue of GROUP BY expression)
(no issue for the issue of GROUP BY expression) ←
15:29:45 <AndyS> LeeF summary/proposal possibilities: 0187
LeeF summary/proposal possibilities: 0187 ←
15:30:23 <AndyS> ... WG wanted to do in principle - mechanism postponed last time.
... WG wanted to do in principle - mechanism postponed last time. ←
15:31:00 <LeeF> option 1 - To project grouping expressions, use BIND to alias the expression to
Lee Feigenbaum: option 1 - To project grouping expressions, use BIND to alias the expression to ←
15:31:00 <LeeF> a variable and then GROUP BY and project that variable (as above).
Lee Feigenbaum: a variable and then GROUP BY and project that variable (as above). ←
15:31:25 <LeeF> option 2 - Include an AS aliasing mechanism in GROUP BY, allow that alias to be
Lee Feigenbaum: option 2 - Include an AS aliasing mechanism in GROUP BY, allow that alias to be ←
15:31:25 <LeeF> projected in the SELECT clause
Lee Feigenbaum: projected in the SELECT clause ←
15:32:34 <AndyS> Discussion around opt 2 and opt 1.
Discussion around opt 2 and opt 1. ←
15:32:49 <LeeF> q?
Lee Feigenbaum: q? ←
15:32:59 <AndyS> SteveH noted wish for if opt 2, then allow no AS form as well.
SteveH noted wish for if opt 2, then allow no AS form as well. ←
15:33:00 <Souri> q+
Souripriya Das: q+ ←
15:33:07 <LeeF> ack Souri
Lee Feigenbaum: ack Souri ←
15:33:48 <AndyS> Souri: Q about BIND and GROUP BY
Souripriya Das: Q about BIND and GROUP BY ←
15:33:55 <LeeF> SELECT ... ?x ... WHERE { .... BIND ( ?x AS expr ) } GROUP BY ?x
Lee Feigenbaum: SELECT ... ?x ... WHERE { .... BIND ( ?x AS expr ) } GROUP BY ?x ←
15:34:18 <kasei> that BIND is backwards, no?
Gregory Williams: that BIND is backwards, no? ←
15:34:25 <LeeF> SELECT ... ?x ... WHERE { .... } GROUP BY (expr AS ?x)
Lee Feigenbaum: SELECT ... ?x ... WHERE { .... } GROUP BY (expr AS ?x) ←
15:34:39 <LeeF> should have been BIND ( expr AS ?x )
Lee Feigenbaum: should have been BIND ( expr AS ?x ) ←
15:35:51 <AndyS> SELECT .... WHERE { .... } GROUP BY (expr AS ?x)
SELECT .... WHERE { .... } GROUP BY (expr AS ?x) ←
15:36:00 <AndyS> SELECT .... WHERE { .... } GROUP BY (expr)
SELECT .... WHERE { .... } GROUP BY (expr) ←
15:36:44 <LeeF> (general consensus against _requiring_ alias when grouping by expressions)
Lee Feigenbaum: (general consensus against _requiring_ alias when grouping by expressions) ←
15:36:59 <LeeF> straw poll: allow option 2 (include AS aliasing in GROUP BY syntax) (+1/0/-1)
Lee Feigenbaum: straw poll: allow option 2 (include AS aliasing in GROUP BY syntax) (+1/0/-1) ←
15:37:49 <LeeF> straw poll: allow option 2 (include expressions and AS aliasing in GROUP BY syntax) (+1/0/-1)
Lee Feigenbaum: straw poll: allow option 2 (include expressions and AS aliasing in GROUP BY syntax) (+1/0/-1) ←
15:37:58 <kasei> +1
Gregory Williams: +1 ←
15:38:00 <LeeF> 0
Lee Feigenbaum: 0 ←
15:38:04 <AndyS> +1
+1 ←
15:38:13 <Souri> +1
Souripriya Das: +1 ←
15:38:20 <cbuilara> 0
15:38:25 <pgearon> 0
Paul Gearon: 0 ←
15:39:43 <LeeF> for next week: PROPOSED: The GROUP BY clause can include expressions with or without AS aliases. These aliases can be re-used in the HAVING clause and query result clause
Lee Feigenbaum: for next week: PROPOSED: The GROUP BY clause can include expressions with or without AS aliases. These aliases can be re-used in the HAVING clause and query result clause ←
15:39:46 <pgearon> I don't see the need for it when a BIND in the WHERE clause will work just as well. But I don't have a particular problem with it, so I voted 0 instead of -1
Paul Gearon: I don't see the need for it when a BIND in the WHERE clause will work just as well. But I don't have a particular problem with it, so I voted 0 instead of -1 ←
15:39:48 <AndyS> leeF: is teh ?x usable in HAVING?
Lee Feigenbaum: is teh ?x usable in HAVING? ←
15:39:51 <AndyS> AndyS; yes
AndyS; yes ←
15:40:00 <Souri> q+
Souripriya Das: q+ ←
15:40:10 <AndyS> Topic: Function library
15:40:29 <LeeF> ack souri
Lee Feigenbaum: ack souri ←
15:42:10 <AndyS> group - extend - having
group - extend - having ←
15:43:00 <AndyS> LeeF: will discuss in full group
Lee Feigenbaum: will discuss in full group ←
15:43:06 <pgearon> +q
Paul Gearon: +q ←
15:43:11 <LeeF> ack pgearon
Lee Feigenbaum: ack pgearon ←
15:45:39 <kasei> also, specifying an algorithm would prevent implementations from doing something better (like sourcing from random.org :)
Gregory Williams: also, specifying an algorithm would prevent implementations from doing something better (like sourcing from random.org :) ←
15:45:41 <pgearon> -q
Paul Gearon: -q ←
15:46:25 <pgearon> I'd prefer not to see a specified algorithm, but I wanted to raise it because it results in an untestable feature
Paul Gearon: I'd prefer not to see a specified algorithm, but I wanted to raise it because it results in an untestable feature ←
15:46:41 <AndyS> Topic: test cases
15:46:44 <kasei> I believe I'm passing all the non-entailment tests right now
Gregory Williams: I believe I'm passing all the non-entailment tests right now ←
15:47:00 <AndyS> LeeF: need to keep building test case materials
Lee Feigenbaum: need to keep building test case materials ←
15:47:09 <AndyS> ... but currently on track
... but currently on track ←
15:47:41 <AndyS> ADJOURNED
ADJOURNED ←
15:53:29 <Zakim> SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has ended
(No events recorded for 5 minutes)
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has ended ←
15:53:31 <Zakim> Attendees were LeeF, Souri, pgearon, kasei, cbuilara, AndyS
Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were LeeF, Souri, pgearon, kasei, cbuilara, AndyS ←
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This revision (#2) generated 2010-11-10 09:08:39 UTC by 'aseaborne', comments: None