<LeeF> Present: Lee, eric, Axel, Alex, kjetil, john-l, kasei, pgearon, SimonS, Andy, luke, bglimm, ivanh, simonkj, prateek
13:58:10 <trackbot> Meeting: SPARQL Working Group Teleconference
13:58:10 <trackbot> Date: 28 July 2009
Trackbot IRC Bot: Date: 28 July 2009 ←
13:58:11 <Zakim> SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has now started
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has now started ←
14:02:54 <LeeF> Regrets: Bijan, SteveH, Chime
14:02:54 <LeeF> Chair: AxelPolleres
14:04:12 <AxelPolleres> topic: Admin
(No events recorded for 6 minutes)
14:04:12 <AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2009-07-28
Axel Polleres: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2009-07-28 ←
14:04:37 <AxelPolleres> scribe: Eric
(Scribe set to Eric Prud'hommeaux)
14:04:50 <AxelPolleres> scribenick ericP
Axel Polleres: scribenick ericP ←
14:06:03 <AndyS> Agenda points to 2009-07-14
Andy Seaborne: Agenda points to 2009-07-14 ←
14:06:13 <AxelPolleres> PROPOSED: accept minutes http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-07-21
PROPOSED: accept minutes http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-07-21 ←
14:06:45 <AxelPolleres> RESOLVED: accept minutes http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-07-21
RESOLVED: accept minutes http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-07-21 ←
14:07:20 <kasei> sure
Greg Williams: sure ←
14:07:30 <AxelPolleres> greg to scribe next week.
Axel Polleres: greg to scribe next week. ←
14:07:44 <Zakim> + +1.216.445.aaee
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.216.445.aaee ←
14:07:49 <john-l> Zakim, aaee is me
John Clark: Zakim, aaee is me ←
14:07:49 <Zakim> +john-l; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +john-l; got it ←
14:08:02 <ericP> topic: Liaisons
14:08:02 <Zakim> + +1.312.863.aaff
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.312.863.aaff ←
14:08:15 <ericP> ericP: nothing to report from HCLS or XQuery
Eric Prud'hommeaux: nothing to report from HCLS or XQuery ←
14:08:24 <pgearon> Zakim, aaff is me
Paul Gearon: Zakim, aaff is me ←
14:08:24 <Zakim> +pgearon; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +pgearon; got it ←
14:08:27 <ericP> AxelPolleres: nothing to report from RIF
Axel Polleres: nothing to report from RIF ←
14:08:59 <AxelPolleres> no news from liaisons
Axel Polleres: no news from liaisons ←
14:09:02 <AxelPolleres> topic: Actions
14:09:32 <AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/actions/16
Axel Polleres: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/actions/16 ←
14:09:42 <AxelPolleres> continued
Axel Polleres: continued ←
14:10:09 <AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/actions/19 continued
Axel Polleres: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/actions/19 continued ←
14:10:16 <SimonKJ> I have started to get 403 errors on the wiki, it worked 10 minutes ago
Simon Johnston: I have started to get 403 errors on the wiki, it worked 10 minutes ago ←
14:10:41 <AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/actions/55
Axel Polleres: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/actions/55 ←
14:10:55 <SimonKJ> all
Simon Johnston: all ←
14:11:07 <SimonKJ> I had loaded the agenda first thing, I just hit reload and got 403
Simon Johnston: I had loaded the agenda first thing, I just hit reload and got 403 ←
14:11:35 <SimonKJ> hopefully a temporary glitch, just be nice to see the action/issue list
Simon Johnston: hopefully a temporary glitch, just be nice to see the action/issue list ←
14:11:42 <AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Vacation_List
Axel Polleres: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Vacation_List ←
14:11:55 <AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/actions/61 done
Axel Polleres: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/actions/61 done ←
14:12:03 <pgearon> +q
Paul Gearon: +q ←
14:12:14 <AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/actions/62 done
Axel Polleres: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/actions/62 done ←
14:12:29 <LukeWM> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/UpdateIssues
Luke Wilson-Mawer: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/UpdateIssues ←
14:12:36 <AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/actions/63 done
Axel Polleres: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/actions/63 done ←
14:13:15 <AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/actions/68 done
Axel Polleres: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/actions/68 done ←
14:14:19 <AxelPolleres> action-55 continued!
Axel Polleres: ACTION-55 continued! ←
14:13:45 <kjetil_> q+ to propose that F&R should be early in the meeting
Kjetil Kjernsmo: q+ to propose that F&R should be early in the meeting ←
14:14:07 <LeeF> q+ to ask about http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/UpdateIssues vis a vis http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues
Lee Feigenbaum: q+ to ask about http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/UpdateIssues vis a vis http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues ←
14:14:16 <kjetil_> ack pgearon
Kjetil Kjernsmo: ack pgearon ←
14:14:26 <kjetil_> ack me
Kjetil Kjernsmo: ack me ←
14:14:27 <Zakim> kjetil_, you wanted to propose that F&R should be early in the meeting
Zakim IRC Bot: kjetil_, you wanted to propose that F&R should be early in the meeting ←
14:16:12 <kjetil_> Zakim, mute me
Kjetil Kjernsmo: Zakim, mute me ←
14:16:12 <Zakim> kjetil_ should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: kjetil_ should now be muted ←
14:16:24 <AxelPolleres> we will discuss F&R before negation.
Axel Polleres: we will discuss F&R before negation. ←
14:16:46 <ericP> LeeF: should we be using issue tracker or the wiki?
Lee Feigenbaum: should we be using issue tracker or the wiki? ←
14:16:57 <kjetil_> q+ to say that HTTP RESTful is missing from the agenda too
Kjetil Kjernsmo: q+ to say that HTTP RESTful is missing from the agenda too ←
14:17:12 <LukeWM> q+
Luke Wilson-Mawer: q+ ←
14:17:14 <ericP> AxelPolleres: goal of the page is to aggregate e.g. update issues on the update page
Axel Polleres: goal of the page is to aggregate e.g. update issues on the update page ←
14:17:17 <AndyS> Is the Update page supposed to have all the things w have discussed so far?
Andy Seaborne: Is the Update page supposed to have all the things w have discussed so far? ←
14:17:26 <AxelPolleres> ack Lee
Axel Polleres: ack Lee ←
14:17:26 <Zakim> LeeF, you wanted to ask about http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/UpdateIssues vis a vis http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues
Zakim IRC Bot: LeeF, you wanted to ask about http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/UpdateIssues vis a vis http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues ←
14:17:35 <kjetil_> ack me
Kjetil Kjernsmo: ack me ←
14:17:37 <Zakim> kjetil_, you wanted to say that HTTP RESTful is missing from the agenda too
Zakim IRC Bot: kjetil_, you wanted to say that HTTP RESTful is missing from the agenda too ←
14:17:40 <LeeF> ACTION: Lee to create (& link) tracked issues for everything listed at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/UpdateIssues
ACTION: Lee to create (& link) tracked issues for everything listed at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/UpdateIssues ←
14:17:40 <trackbot> Created ACTION-70 - Create (& link) tracked issues for everything listed at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/UpdateIssues [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2009-08-04].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-70 - Create (& link) tracked issues for everything listed at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/UpdateIssues [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2009-08-04]. ←
14:17:59 <ericP> kjetil: would like HTTP ReSTful update on the agenda today
Kjetil Kjernsmo: would like HTTP ReSTful update on the agenda today ←
14:18:23 <ericP> AxelPolleres: wanted to start with issues we've already discussed. happy to get to [HTTP ReSTful update]
Axel Polleres: wanted to start with issues we've already discussed. happy to get to [HTTP ReSTful update] ←
14:18:55 <ericP> kjetil, update is high-level discussion -- would like that before detailed discussion
kjetil, update is high-level discussion -- would like that before detailed discussion ←
14:19:15 <ericP> kjetil: update is high-level discussion -- would like that before detailed discussion
Kjetil Kjernsmo: update is high-level discussion -- would like that before detailed discussion ←
14:19:29 <ericP> ... would like a straw poll
... would like a straw poll ←
14:19:39 <LeeF> can someone explain to me what the high-level discussion is that's different from what we'd already resolved?
Lee Feigenbaum: can someone explain to me what the high-level discussion is that's different from what we'd already resolved? ←
14:19:44 <AxelPolleres> q?
Axel Polleres: q? ←
14:19:46 <Zakim> -LukeWM
Zakim IRC Bot: -LukeWM ←
14:19:50 <kjetil_> Zakim, mute me
Kjetil Kjernsmo: Zakim, mute me ←
14:19:50 <Zakim> kjetil_ should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: kjetil_ should now be muted ←
14:19:51 <ericP> AxelPolleres: will put ReSTful update on next agenda
Axel Polleres: will put ReSTful update on next agenda ←
14:20:10 <AxelPolleres> topic: Establish task-forces for some time-permitting features
14:20:37 <kjetil_> LeeF, have we resolved anything regarding HTTP REST Update?
Kjetil Kjernsmo: LeeF, have we resolved anything regarding HTTP REST Update? ←
14:20:47 <Zakim> +??P19
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P19 ←
14:20:49 <LeeF> kjetil, yes, we resolved to pursue them wherever they make sense
Lee Feigenbaum: kjetil, yes, we resolved to pursue them wherever they make sense ←
14:21:05 <ericP> AxelPolleres: while we need to spend telecon time on required features, we don't want to forget time-permitting
Axel Polleres: while we need to spend telecon time on required features, we don't want to forget time-permitting ←
14:21:16 <LukeWM> zakim, ??P19 is me
Luke Wilson-Mawer: zakim, ??P19 is me ←
14:21:16 <Zakim> +LukeWM; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +LukeWM; got it ←
14:21:28 <ericP> ... would like to find task forces which will meet at other times
... would like to find task forces which will meet at other times ←
14:21:58 <ericP> ... need one or two folks to drive these issues
... need one or two folks to drive these issues ←
14:22:06 <LeeF> kjetil, back on June 2 - see http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-06-02#resolution_3
Lee Feigenbaum: kjetil, back on June 2 - see http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-06-02#resolution_3 ←
14:22:06 <ericP> ... would like poll progress in a month
... would like poll progress in a month ←
14:22:10 <LukeWM> AndyS, I think that the update issues discussed so far ought to be on the wikipage, but no one has added anything apart from me as far as I can tell.
Luke Wilson-Mawer: AndyS, I think that the update issues discussed so far ought to be on the wikipage, but no one has added anything apart from me as far as I can tell. ←
14:22:19 <AxelPolleres> q?
Axel Polleres: q? ←
14:22:32 <bglimm> I am volunteering for other entailment regimes
Birte Glimm: I am volunteering for other entailment regimes ←
14:22:54 <AndyS> I see a lot of things :: "Negation" and "Time Permitting Features"
Andy Seaborne: I see a lot of things :: "Negation" and "Time Permitting Features" ←
14:22:58 <ericP> LukeWM: update wiki page doesn't cover all issues -- encourage group to flush it out
Luke Wilson-Mawer: update wiki page doesn't cover all issues -- encourage group to flush it out ←
14:23:12 <kjetil_> LeeF, we're sidetracking here, but after that, there has come up four concrete alternatives to pursue, some of which are very different
Kjetil Kjernsmo: LeeF, we're sidetracking here, but after that, there has come up four concrete alternatives to pursue, some of which are very different ←
14:23:25 <ericP> AxelPolleres: think that's covered with LeeF's action to transfer issues list issues to update wiki page
Axel Polleres: think that's covered with LeeF's action to transfer issues list issues to update wiki page ←
14:23:33 <LeeF> kjetil, ok, that's what i was asking about, since i've been out of the loop for a couple of weeks
Lee Feigenbaum: kjetil, ok, that's what i was asking about, since i've been out of the loop for a couple of weeks ←
14:23:40 <kjetil_> LeeF, for example, I and SimonS have forwarded diametrically different proposals
Kjetil Kjernsmo: LeeF, for example, I and SimonS have forwarded diametrically different proposals ←
14:23:46 <AxelPolleres> BGP extensions for entailment regimes
Axel Polleres: BGP extensions for entailment regimes ←
14:23:55 <AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Feature:SPARQL/OWL
Axel Polleres: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Feature:SPARQL/OWL ←
14:24:04 <ericP> AxelPolleres: for BGP entailment regimes, had 5 folks interested
Axel Polleres: for BGP entailment regimes, had 5 folks interested ←
14:24:43 <ericP> ... Birte and Bijan available to lead Entailment Regime TF
... Birte and Bijan available to lead Entailment Regime TF ←
14:25:33 <ericP> ... expect a report in a month to provide info for F&R doc
... expect a report in a month to provide info for F&R doc ←
14:26:00 <AxelPolleres> LeeF: suggests strawpoll per feature.
Lee Feigenbaum: suggests strawpoll per feature. [ Scribe Assist by Axel Polleres ] ←
14:26:21 <AndyS> I am interested in BGP entailment regimes (to implement some of them)
Andy Seaborne: I am interested in BGP entailment regimes (to implement some of them) ←
14:26:30 <AxelPolleres> strawpoll: who wants to contribute to BGP entailment TF?
STRAWPOLL: who wants to contribute to BGP entailment TF? ←
14:26:40 <bglimm> +1
Birte Glimm: +1 ←
14:26:40 <ivanh> I am interested by the BGP one
Ivan Herman: I am interested by the BGP one ←
14:26:45 <AxelPolleres> (+1 means yes, -1 no)
Axel Polleres: (+1 means yes, -1 no) ←
14:26:48 <AxelPolleres> +1
Axel Polleres: +1 ←
14:26:48 <ivanh> +1
Ivan Herman: +1 ←
14:26:52 <kjetil_> -1
Kjetil Kjernsmo: -1 ←
14:26:57 <LukeWM> -1
Luke Wilson-Mawer: -1 ←
14:27:10 <SimonS> -1
Simon Schenk: -1 ←
14:27:13 <kasei> -1
Greg Williams: -1 ←
14:27:13 <AndyS> +1
Andy Seaborne: +1 ←
14:27:26 <SimonKJ> -1
Simon Johnston: -1 ←
14:27:44 <ericP> -ei^2
-ei^2 ←
14:27:44 <pgearon> +1
Paul Gearon: +1 ←
14:28:25 <AxelPolleres> Feature: PropertyPaths
Axel Polleres: Feature: PropertyPaths ←
14:28:31 <AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Feature:PropertyPaths
Axel Polleres: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Feature:PropertyPaths ←
14:28:59 <kjetil_> Zakim, unmute me
Kjetil Kjernsmo: Zakim, unmute me ←
14:28:59 <Zakim> kjetil_ should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: kjetil_ should no longer be muted ←
14:29:27 <AxelPolleres> AndyS takes lead on PropPaths
Axel Polleres: AndyS takes lead on PropPaths ←
14:29:31 <ericP> AndyS: i will drive the PropertyPaths TF
Andy Seaborne: i will drive the PropertyPaths TF ←
14:30:07 <kjetil_> Zakim, mute me
Kjetil Kjernsmo: Zakim, mute me ←
14:30:07 <Zakim> kjetil_ should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: kjetil_ should now be muted ←
14:30:13 <ericP> kjetil: I expect to provide test cases for PropertyPaths
Kjetil Kjernsmo: I expect to provide test cases for PropertyPaths ←
14:30:29 <LukeWM> +1
Luke Wilson-Mawer: +1 ←
14:30:30 <AlexPassant> +1
Alex Passant: +1 ←
14:30:30 <SimonKJ> +1
Simon Johnston: +1 ←
14:30:30 <ivanh> +1
Ivan Herman: +1 ←
14:30:32 <LeeF> +1
Lee Feigenbaum: +1 ←
14:30:39 <pgearon> +1
Paul Gearon: +1 ←
14:31:07 <kjetil_> +1
Kjetil Kjernsmo: +1 ←
14:31:17 <AxelPolleres> +0
Axel Polleres: +0 ←
14:31:32 <SimonS> +0
Simon Schenk: +0 ←
14:32:13 <AxelPolleres> Feature: Commonly used SPARQL functions
Axel Polleres: Feature: Commonly used SPARQL functions ←
14:32:18 <ericP> LeeF: it would be great if the TFs meet
Lee Feigenbaum: it would be great if the TFs meet ←
14:32:54 <ericP> ericP: TFs can "/invite Zakim #sparql" and "Zakim, space for 5?" to get an ad-hoc conference
Eric Prud'hommeaux: TFs can "/invite Zakim #sparql" and "Zakim, space for 5?" to get an ad-hoc conference ←
14:34:02 <AxelPolleres> Eric: feature function library I could provide input there.
Eric Prud'hommeaux: feature function library I could provide input there. [ Scribe Assist by Axel Polleres ] ←
14:34:14 <ericP> LeeF: this one will be easier so doesn't need so much formalism
Lee Feigenbaum: this one will be easier so doesn't need so much formalism ←
14:34:27 <ericP> AxelPolleres: would like someone responsible
Axel Polleres: would like someone responsible ←
14:34:51 <AxelPolleres> Axel: I will kick off function library discussion
Axel Polleres: I will kick off function library discussion [ Scribe Assist by Axel Polleres ] ←
14:35:32 <AxelPolleres> ericP: existing functions and operators table provides a good way to extend the core.
Eric Prud'hommeaux: existing functions and operators table provides a good way to extend the core. [ Scribe Assist by Axel Polleres ] ←
14:36:02 <AxelPolleres> AndyS: rather identifying URIs for common functions.
Andy Seaborne: rather identifying URIs for common functions. [ Scribe Assist by Axel Polleres ] ←
14:36:39 <AxelPolleres> strawpoll: who to contribute in function library?
STRAWPOLL: who to contribute in function library? ←
14:36:41 <AxelPolleres> +1
Axel Polleres: +1 ←
14:37:04 <AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Feature:BasicFederatedQuery
Axel Polleres: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Feature:BasicFederatedQuery ←
14:37:32 <AxelPolleres> feature: federated query
Axel Polleres: feature: federated query ←
14:37:33 <ericP> AxelPolleres: champions AndyS, iv_an_ru, SimonS
Axel Polleres: champions AndyS, iv_an_ru, SimonS ←
14:37:51 <ericP> ... TF lead: SimonS
... TF lead: SimonS ←
14:37:54 <kjetil_> +1 (hopes to contribute test cases again)
Kjetil Kjernsmo: +1 (hopes to contribute test cases again) ←
14:37:56 <ericP> +1
+1 ←
14:37:58 <pgearon> +!
Paul Gearon: +! ←
14:38:00 <SimonKJ> +1
Simon Johnston: +1 ←
14:38:00 <pgearon> +1
Paul Gearon: +1 ←
14:38:02 <kasei> +1
Greg Williams: +1 ←
14:38:10 <LeeF> I hope to contribute, but not sure I'll have enough time
Lee Feigenbaum: I hope to contribute, but not sure I'll have enough time ←
14:38:31 <AndyS> as for LeeF
Andy Seaborne: as for LeeF ←
14:38:39 <AxelPolleres> q?
Axel Polleres: q? ←
14:38:48 <LeeF> ack LukeWM
Lee Feigenbaum: ack LukeWM ←
14:38:48 <AxelPolleres> ack LukeWM
Axel Polleres: ack LukeWM ←
14:39:00 <ericP> AxelPolleres: we have folks assigned to all features, please go ahead and start your task forces
Axel Polleres: we have folks assigned to all features, please go ahead and start your task forces ←
14:39:12 <AxelPolleres> topic: minus vs. unsaid
14:39:37 <AxelPolleres> topic: F&R document
14:39:40 <kjetil_> Zakim, unmute me
Kjetil Kjernsmo: Zakim, unmute me ←
14:39:40 <Zakim> kjetil_ should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: kjetil_ should no longer be muted ←
14:40:02 <ericP> kjetil: F&R FPWD published
Kjetil Kjernsmo: F&R FPWD published ←
14:40:21 <ericP> ... my time is uncertain
... my time is uncertain ←
14:40:36 <ericP> ... have inserted tempates for time-permitting features
... have inserted tempates for time-permitting features ←
14:40:46 <ericP> ... need to get them into shape
... need to get them into shape ←
14:41:00 <ericP> AlexPassant: will have time in Aug
Alex Passant: will have time in Aug ←
14:41:41 <ericP> AxelPolleres: need to get ahold of time-permitting TF leads to get paragraphs
Axel Polleres: need to get ahold of time-permitting TF leads to get paragraphs ←
14:42:21 <ericP> ... would like next F&R at same time as FPWDs of Query and Update
... would like next F&R at same time as FPWDs of Query and Update ←
14:43:24 <ericP> ericP: would be nice to give time to get public feedback, but not sure that's feasible given the timeline
Eric Prud'hommeaux: would be nice to give time to get public feedback, but not sure that's feasible given the timeline ←
14:43:34 <ericP> AxelPolleres: do we need more advertising?
Axel Polleres: do we need more advertising? ←
14:43:47 <kjetil_> freetext has been brought up
Kjetil Kjernsmo: freetext has been brought up ←
14:43:56 <ericP> kjetil: swig?
Kjetil Kjernsmo: swig? ←
14:44:02 <kjetil_> has it been posted to the semantic-web ml?
Kjetil Kjernsmo: has it been posted to the semantic-web ml? ←
14:44:12 <kjetil_> it has been chumped on #swig
Kjetil Kjernsmo: it has been chumped on #swig ←
14:44:22 <ericP> AxelPolleres: please suggest publication locations
Axel Polleres: please suggest publication locations ←
14:44:30 <ericP> ... we should contact liased WGs
... we should contact liased WGs ←
14:44:57 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: Axel to re-check where to announce F&R (e.g. liaisons)
ACTION: Axel to re-check where to announce F&R (e.g. liaisons) ←
14:44:58 <trackbot> Created ACTION-71 - Re-check where to announce F&R (e.g. liaisons) [on Axel Polleres - due 2009-08-04].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-71 - Re-check where to announce F&R (e.g. liaisons) [on Axel Polleres - due 2009-08-04]. ←
14:44:59 <ericP> AndyS: when's last F&R, last call [for Query and Update]?
Andy Seaborne: when's last F&R, last call [for Query and Update]? ←
14:45:09 <ericP> ivanh: it's a note, so we decide the process
Ivan Herman: it's a note, so we decide the process ←
14:45:40 <ericP> kjetil: would like to make a wiki page copying the F&R doc so folks can edit it
Kjetil Kjernsmo: would like to make a wiki page copying the F&R doc so folks can edit it ←
14:45:58 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: Alex to take F&R current version back to wiki for editing
ACTION: Alex to take F&R current version back to wiki for editing ←
14:45:58 <trackbot> Created ACTION-72 - Take F&R current version back to wiki for editing [on Alexandre Passant - due 2009-08-04].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-72 - Take F&R current version back to wiki for editing [on Alexandre Passant - due 2009-08-04]. ←
14:46:38 <AxelPolleres> topic: MINUS vs. UNSAID
14:47:15 <ericP> LeeF: AndyS written up UNSAID and ericP's written MINUS
Lee Feigenbaum: AndyS written up UNSAID and ericP's written MINUS ←
14:47:23 <kjetil_> probably a good idea to create new pages rather than use the Category:Features pages
Kjetil Kjernsmo: probably a good idea to create new pages rather than use the Category:Features pages ←
14:47:28 <kjetil_> Zakim, mute me
Kjetil Kjernsmo: Zakim, mute me ←
14:47:28 <Zakim> kjetil_ should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: kjetil_ should now be muted ←
14:47:33 <ericP> ... from implementor's perspectice, MINUS is an algebraic op to combine result sets
... from implementor's perspectice, MINUS is an algebraic op to combine result sets ←
14:47:58 <ericP> ... while UNSAID is a FILTER which takes a triple pattern and examines existing bindings
... while UNSAID is a FILTER which takes a triple pattern and examines existing bindings ←
14:48:29 <ericP> ... from query writer's perspective, in most cases MINUS and UNSAID give you the same results
... from query writer's perspective, in most cases MINUS and UNSAID give you the same results ←
14:48:53 <ericP> ... when they don't it's when OPTIONALs introduce vars
... when they don't it's when OPTIONALs introduce vars ←
14:49:06 <ericP> ... those queries tend to be strage and artificial
... those queries tend to be strage and artificial ←
14:49:32 <AxelPolleres> BTW: I will assign actions to the TF leads to kick-off discussions, just to keep track.
Axel Polleres: BTW: I will assign actions to the TF leads to kick-off discussions, just to keep track. ←
14:49:44 <LukeWM> q+
Luke Wilson-Mawer: q+ ←
14:49:45 <ericP> ... someone listed a use case, examining where it is more natural to express one way or another
... someone listed a use case, examining where it is more natural to express one way or another ←
14:50:09 <LeeF> ack LukeWM
Lee Feigenbaum: ack LukeWM ←
14:50:26 <ericP> LukeWM: if we banned opts, would it make MINUS and UNSAID equivalent?
Luke Wilson-Mawer: if we banned opts, would it make MINUS and UNSAID equivalent? ←
14:50:44 <ericP> LeeF: i think we think they're identical at that point
Lee Feigenbaum: i think we think they're identical at that point ←
14:51:03 <ericP> LukeWM: just wondering if there are compelling use cases for OPTIONALs
Luke Wilson-Mawer: just wondering if there are compelling use cases for OPTIONALs ←
14:51:15 <kasei> i'm not sure it can be identical if we haven't nailed down the antijoin(+restriction) issue that ericP was discussing on the list yesterday.
Greg Williams: i'm not sure it can be identical if we haven't nailed down the antijoin(+restriction) issue that ericP was discussing on the list yesterday. ←
14:51:26 <AxelPolleres> q+ on OPTIONALs
Axel Polleres: q+ on OPTIONALs ←
14:51:39 <LeeF> ack AxelPolleres
Lee Feigenbaum: ack AxelPolleres ←
14:51:39 <Zakim> AxelPolleres, you wanted to comment on OPTIONALs
Zakim IRC Bot: AxelPolleres, you wanted to comment on OPTIONALs ←
14:51:57 <ericP> LeeF: proposal to prohibit OPTIONALs in the unsaid pattern is interesting
Lee Feigenbaum: proposal to prohibit OPTIONALs in the unsaid pattern is interesting ←
14:52:13 <LeeF> kasei, you're right, but i've been working on the assumption that we are dealing with AntiJoin+Restriction, which is the same semantics as UNSAID for the cases in which the two patterns share no variables I think
Lee Feigenbaum: kasei, you're right, but i've been working on the assumption that we are dealing with AntiJoin+Restriction, which is the same semantics as UNSAID for the cases in which the two patterns share no variables I think ←
14:52:29 <ericP> AxelPolleres: i think restricting patterns makes it harder
Axel Polleres: i think restricting patterns makes it harder ←
14:52:29 <ericP> +1
+1 ←
14:52:35 <AxelPolleres> ack Axel
Axel Polleres: ack Axel ←
14:52:37 <pgearon> +q
Paul Gearon: +q ←
14:52:42 <LeeF> ack pgearon
Lee Feigenbaum: ack pgearon ←
14:52:56 <AndyS> Messy syntax but that's all, I think.
Andy Seaborne: Messy syntax but that's all, I think. ←
14:53:40 <ericP> pgearon: leaning towards eliminating OPTIONALs because you don't want to eliminiate solutions which would have !BOUND vars
Paul Gearon: leaning towards eliminating OPTIONALs because you don't want to eliminiate solutions which would have !BOUND vars ←
14:53:54 <SimonS> +1 pgearon.
Simon Schenk: +1 pgearon. ←
14:53:55 <AxelPolleres> if we disallow that, then we probably should equally think about forbidding nesting optionals... ?!?
Axel Polleres: if we disallow that, then we probably should equally think about forbidding nesting optionals... ?!? ←
14:54:13 <ericP> LeeF: who's uncomfortable with prohibiting OPTIONALs in MINUS?
Lee Feigenbaum: who's uncomfortable with prohibiting OPTIONALs in MINUS? ←
14:54:14 <ericP> +1
+1 ←
14:54:56 <AxelPolleres> +1 to eric's +1 ;-)
Axel Polleres: +1 to eric's +1 ;-) ←
14:55:07 <kasei> for the unsaid version, I think it makes a lot of sense, since I believe optional is a no-op in that case. not sure about minus.
Greg Williams: for the unsaid version, I think it makes a lot of sense, since I believe optional is a no-op in that case. not sure about minus. ←
14:55:09 <AndyS> Unsure about this because optionals appear in the LHS so the compatibility rules seem odd.
Andy Seaborne: Unsure about this because optionals appear in the LHS so the compatibility rules seem odd. ←
14:55:38 <SimonKJ> Could go either way on this, there's complexity in both choices
Simon Johnston: Could go either way on this, there's complexity in both choices ←
14:56:09 <ericP> ericP: would rather the discomfort occur when folks have to understand what happens with unbound vars rather than have different rules for subtraction sets
Eric Prud'hommeaux: would rather the discomfort occur when folks have to understand what happens with unbound vars rather than have different rules for subtraction sets ←
14:56:21 <AxelPolleres> LeeF: as long as the semantics is clear, for the corner cases, I think we don't have to worry too much about corner cases arising from OPTIONAL use
Lee Feigenbaum: as long as the semantics is clear, for the corner cases, I think we don't have to worry too much about corner cases arising from OPTIONAL use [ Scribe Assist by Axel Polleres ] ←
14:56:30 <AxelPolleres> (hope that summarizes lee right)
Axel Polleres: (hope that summarizes lee right) ←
14:57:04 <ericP> Leef: MINUS (modulo ignoring empty results), UNSAID, OPTIONAL prohibited
Lee Feigenbaum: MINUS (modulo ignoring empty results), UNSAID, OPTIONAL prohibited ←
14:57:22 <pgearon> we *could* say that OPTIONAL on the right is undefined. Is that a terrible idea if there is no use case to use it?
Paul Gearon: we *could* say that OPTIONAL on the right is undefined. Is that a terrible idea if there is no use case to use it? ←
14:57:42 <LeeF> MINUS-AntiJoin+Restriction
Lee Feigenbaum: MINUS-AntiJoin+Restriction ←
14:57:44 <LukeWM> +1
Luke Wilson-Mawer: +1 ←
14:57:47 <ericP> +1
+1 ←
14:57:48 <AndyS> -1
Andy Seaborne: -1 ←
14:57:53 <SimonKJ> -1
Simon Johnston: -1 ←
14:57:54 <SimonS> -1
Simon Schenk: -1 ←
14:57:55 <ivanh> 0
Ivan Herman: 0 ←
14:57:56 <AxelPolleres> 0
Axel Polleres: 0 ←
14:58:00 <LeeF> +1
Lee Feigenbaum: +1 ←
14:58:01 <kjetil_> 0
Kjetil Kjernsmo: 0 ←
14:58:02 <AlexPassant> 0
Alex Passant: 0 ←
14:58:11 <bglimm> 0
Birte Glimm: 0 ←
14:58:11 <kasei> i don't want to drag things down here, but i'm still shaky on the equivalence of unsaid and the antijoin+restriction...
Greg Williams: i don't want to drag things down here, but i'm still shaky on the equivalence of unsaid and the antijoin+restriction... ←
14:58:12 <Prateek> 0
Prateek Jain: 0 ←
14:58:17 <kasei> -1
Greg Williams: -1 ←
14:58:50 <kasei> maybe I need to re-read the emails
Greg Williams: maybe I need to re-read the emails ←
14:58:58 <LeeF> UNSAID
Lee Feigenbaum: UNSAID ←
14:58:59 <ericP> why do they have to be equiv?
why do they have to be equiv? ←
14:59:05 <ericP> 0
0 ←
14:59:08 <AndyS> +1
Andy Seaborne: +1 ←
14:59:09 <kasei> +1
Greg Williams: +1 ←
14:59:10 <AlexPassant> +1
Alex Passant: +1 ←
14:59:11 <LukeWM> -1
Luke Wilson-Mawer: -1 ←
14:59:11 <ivanh> +1
Ivan Herman: +1 ←
14:59:11 <AxelPolleres> +1
Axel Polleres: +1 ←
14:59:12 <SimonKJ> +1
Simon Johnston: +1 ←
14:59:12 <SimonS> +1
Simon Schenk: +1 ←
14:59:14 <LeeF> +1
Lee Feigenbaum: +1 ←
14:59:20 <Prateek> +1
Prateek Jain: +1 ←
14:59:28 <kasei> ericP: they don't but I thought that had been asserted for the case without optionals (perhaps I've misuderstood that, too, though :)
Eric Prud'hommeaux: they don't but I thought that had been asserted for the case without optionals (perhaps I've misuderstood that, too, though :) [ Scribe Assist by Greg Williams ] ←
14:59:33 <pgearon> abstain on both
Paul Gearon: abstain on both ←
14:59:48 <pgearon> probably for similar reasons to LeeF
Paul Gearon: probably for similar reasons to LeeF ←
14:59:53 <LeeF> MINUS or UNSAID prohibiting OPTIONALs on the RHS
Lee Feigenbaum: MINUS or UNSAID prohibiting OPTIONALs on the RHS ←
14:59:59 <ericP> -1
-1 ←
15:00:04 <kjetil_> 0
Kjetil Kjernsmo: 0 ←
15:00:07 <kasei> +1
Greg Williams: +1 ←
15:00:10 <AndyS> -1
Andy Seaborne: -1 ←
15:00:10 <SimonS> 0
Simon Schenk: 0 ←
15:00:12 <SimonKJ> 0
Simon Johnston: 0 ←
15:00:16 <LukeWM> +1
Luke Wilson-Mawer: +1 ←
15:00:18 <AxelPolleres> 0 (not entirely egainst it, since it seems it might drop worst case complexity)
Axel Polleres: 0 (not entirely egainst it, since it seems it might drop worst case complexity) ←
15:00:19 <ivanh> 0 (does not know yet...)
Ivan Herman: 0 (does not know yet...) ←
15:00:22 <Prateek> 0
Prateek Jain: 0 ←
15:00:25 <LeeF> -1
Lee Feigenbaum: -1 ←
15:00:30 <bglimm> 0
Birte Glimm: 0 ←
15:00:41 <kasei> although I think this might be two different things depending on UNSAID or MINUS
Greg Williams: although I think this might be two different things depending on UNSAID or MINUS ←
15:00:51 <pgearon> I'd rather "undefine" this pattern, rather than prohibit it
Paul Gearon: I'd rather "undefine" this pattern, rather than prohibit it ←
15:02:12 <LukeWM> AndyS, sure
Luke Wilson-Mawer: AndyS, sure ←
15:02:37 <ericP> LeeF: clear leaning towards UNSAID
Lee Feigenbaum: clear leaning towards UNSAID ←
15:02:44 <AxelPolleres> LeeF/Eric: at least in FPWD we should sketch both.
Axel Polleres: LeeF/Eric: at least in FPWD we should sketch both. ←
15:02:46 <ericP> ... consistent with having AndyS edit the template
... consistent with having AndyS edit the template ←
15:03:05 <ericP> ... plus red spec text inclusing alternatives
... plus red spec text inclusing alternatives ←
15:03:56 <ericP> topic: wrap-up
15:04:13 <ericP> AxelPolleres: i'll make actions for TF leads
Axel Polleres: i'll make actions for TF leads ←
15:04:30 <ericP> ... action to get TF leads to kick off discussion
... action to get TF leads to kick off discussion ←
15:04:30 <AxelPolleres> Adjourned.
Axel Polleres: Adjourned. ←
Formatted by CommonScribe
This revision (#1) generated 2009-07-29 02:35:14 UTC by 'lfeigenb', comments: 'minutes, courtesy of eric p.'