SPARQL Working Group Teleconference

Minutes of 14 April 2009

Present
Lee Feigenbaum, Steve Harris, Luke Wilson-Mawer, Andy Seaborne, Ivan Herman, Orri Erling, Dave Newman, Greg Williams, Chime Ogbuji, John Clark, Eric Prud'hommeaux, Simon Schenk
Regrets
Axel Polleres, Alex Passant, Kjetil Kjernsmo, Jacek Kopeck√Ĺ
Chair
Lee Feigenbaum
Scribe
Ivan Herman
IRC Log
Original and Editable Wiki Version
Resolutions
  1. Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-04-07 link
Topics
<LeeF> Present: Lee, Steve, Luke, Andy, ivanh, Orri, dnewman2, kasei, chimezie, john-l, ericp, Simon
13:51:19 <trackbot> Meeting: SPARQL Working Group Teleconference
13:51:21 <trackbot>  Date: 14 April 2009

Trackbot IRC Bot: Date: 14 April 2009

13:53:40 <LeeF> Regrets: Axel, Alex, Kjetil, Jacek
13:53:43 <LeeF> Chair: LeeF
13:54:47 <AndyS> Agenda AOB request - F2F1 - We seem to have 5 Boston, 7 Bristol.

Andy Seaborne: Agenda AOB request - F2F1 - We seem to have 5 Boston, 7 Bristol.

13:56:31 <LeeF> AndyS, ack

Lee Feigenbaum: AndyS, ack

13:56:38 <Zakim> SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has now started

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has now started

14:02:29 <ivanh> scribenick: ivanh

(No events recorded for 5 minutes)

(Scribe set to Ivan Herman)

14:02:38 <ivanh> scribe: ivanh
14:03:24 <chimezie> zakim, unmute me

Chime Ogbuji: zakim, unmute me

14:03:59 <ivanh> Topic: administravia

1. administravia

14:04:05 <kasei> zakim, mute me

Greg Williams: zakim, mute me

14:04:05 <Zakim> kasei was already muted, kasei

Zakim IRC Bot: kasei was already muted, kasei

14:04:09 <LeeF> -> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2009-04-14 agenda for today

Lee Feigenbaum: -> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2009-04-14 agenda for today

14:04:24 <LeeF> PROPOSED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-04-07

PROPOSED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-04-07

14:04:26 <Zakim> -Lee_Feigenbaum

Zakim IRC Bot: -Lee_Feigenbaum

14:04:39 <Zakim> +EricP

Zakim IRC Bot: +EricP

14:04:51 <Zakim> +Lee_Feigenbaum

Zakim IRC Bot: +Lee_Feigenbaum

14:05:20 <Zakim> + +1.479.864.aaee

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.479.864.aaee

14:06:06 <ivanh> RESOLVED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-04-07

RESOLVED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-04-07

14:06:15 <ivanh> topic: next meeting

2. next meeting

14:06:20 <ivanh> next tuesday, this time

next tuesday, this time

14:06:32 <ivanh> regrets next week: orri, ivanh

regrets next week: orri, ivanh

14:06:55 <ivanh> lee: any report of our liaisons?

Lee Feigenbaum: any report of our liaisons?

14:07:14 <ivanh> AndyS: i believe sparql and owl will ask us to review rdf:text

Andy Seaborne: i believe sparql and owl will ask us to review rdf:text

14:07:28 <AndyS> s/sparql/rif/

Andy Seaborne: s/sparql/rif/

14:07:38 <ivanh> LeeF: what we said that when the text is ready we will send it to the mailing list and see if anybody is interested

Lee Feigenbaum: what we said that when the text is ready we will send it to the mailing list and see if anybody is interested

14:07:47 <ivanh> Topic: rechartering issue

3. rechartering issue

14:08:47 <ivanh> lee: my understanding is that it should not affect our work at all

Lee Feigenbaum: my understanding is that it should not affect our work at all

14:09:14 <ivanh> ... this may be naive or optimistic, but we should be able to do the same work the same way

... this may be naive or optimistic, but we should be able to do the same work the same way

14:10:24 <LeeF> ivanh: the way the charter is done today is extremely open-ended, and companies that really want to consider all their patent issues cannot make any patent disclosures right now since nothing specifies what will be part of a Recommendation

Ivan Herman: the way the charter is done today is extremely open-ended, and companies that really want to consider all their patent issues cannot make any patent disclosures right now since nothing specifies what will be part of a Recommendation [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

14:10:40 <LeeF> ... we received remarks from members making us consider this

Lee Feigenbaum: ... we received remarks from members making us consider this

14:11:13 <LeeF> ... we have sent out a rechartering proposal to the AC that charters this group to produce a non-Rec track document (WG Note) called features & rationale that lists all the features we want in SPARQL

Lee Feigenbaum: ... we have sent out a rechartering proposal to the AC that charters this group to produce a non-Rec track document (WG Note) called features & rationale that lists all the features we want in SPARQL

14:11:18 <LeeF> ... formal lifespan is through the end of July

Lee Feigenbaum: ... formal lifespan is through the end of July

14:11:51 <LeeF> ... in practice, group keeps doing what it is doing, but needs to publish this WG Note before end of July

Lee Feigenbaum: ... in practice, group keeps doing what it is doing, but needs to publish this WG Note before end of July

14:12:03 <chimezie> zakim, mute me

Chime Ogbuji: zakim, mute me

14:12:03 <Zakim> chimezie should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: chimezie should now be muted

14:12:21 <LeeF> ... as soon as we publish a first public working draft of requirements (hopefully 2nd half of May), we would immediately do a 2nd rechartering that lists the features as part of the charter

Lee Feigenbaum: ... as soon as we publish a first public working draft of requirements (hopefully 2nd half of May), we would immediately do a 2nd rechartering that lists the features as part of the charter

14:12:31 <SteveH> q+ to ask about process and schedule

Steve Harris: q+ to ask about process and schedule

14:13:10 <LeeF> ... if new charter proposal is done by end of May, it would be official by end of June, so from beginning-to-mid of July the group could be active under the second charter

Lee Feigenbaum: ... if new charter proposal is done by end of May, it would be official by end of June, so from beginning-to-mid of July the group could be active under the second charter

14:13:43 <LeeF> ... no problem if group begins to really work on specification work in May - the only thing the group should not do is publish a First Public Working Draft because that is what leads to patent issues

Lee Feigenbaum: ... no problem if group begins to really work on specification work in May - the only thing the group should not do is publish a First Public Working Draft because that is what leads to patent issues

14:13:56 <LeeF> ... no problem with editors' drafts

Lee Feigenbaum: ... no problem with editors' drafts

14:14:24 <LeeF> ack SteveH

Lee Feigenbaum: ack SteveH

14:14:24 <Zakim> SteveH, you wanted to ask about process and schedule

Zakim IRC Bot: SteveH, you wanted to ask about process and schedule

14:15:17 <LeeF> SteveH: my understanding around Lee's intentions was to iterate on the process - consider other things as time permits

Steve Harris: my understanding around Lee's intentions was to iterate on the process - consider other things as time permits [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

14:15:27 <LeeF> ... but now we no longer have that flexibility

Lee Feigenbaum: ... but now we no longer have that flexibility

14:15:47 <ericP> i don't think we'll be any more bound later on than we would be in any other WG

Eric Prud'hommeaux: i don't think we'll be any more bound later on than we would be in any other WG

14:16:11 <LeeF> ... if charter is bound, we can't go ahead and talk about details because that would be outside the charter

Lee Feigenbaum: ... if charter is bound, we can't go ahead and talk about details because that would be outside the charter

14:17:07 <ericP> q+ to say that this ends up being like any other WG

Eric Prud'hommeaux: q+ to say that this ends up being like any other WG

14:17:48 <LeeF> LeeF: intention is to reach consensus on 'required' and 'time permitting' deliverables, and then include them all in the new charter

Lee Feigenbaum: intention is to reach consensus on 'required' and 'time permitting' deliverables, and then include them all in the new charter [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

14:18:03 <AndyS> q+ to aks about IP review at WD stages

Andy Seaborne: q+ to aks about IP review at WD stages

14:18:39 <kasei> is everyone else hearing lots of (mobile?) interference on the call, or is it just me?

Greg Williams: is everyone else hearing lots of (mobile?) interference on the call, or is it just me?

14:18:52 <SimonS> me too.

Simon Schenk: me too.

14:19:41 <ivanh> ack ericP

ack ericP

14:19:41 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to say that this ends up being like any other WG

Zakim IRC Bot: ericP, you wanted to say that this ends up being like any other WG

14:20:06 <LeeF> ericp: we have patent policy since companies want to know what they're working on - the charter for the 2nd phase of the group ends up being like any other group

Eric Prud'hommeaux: we have patent policy since companies want to know what they're working on - the charter for the 2nd phase of the group ends up being like any other group [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

14:21:16 <ivanh> ack AndyS

ack AndyS

14:21:16 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to aks about IP review at WD stages

Zakim IRC Bot: AndyS, you wanted to aks about IP review at WD stages

14:21:47 <LeeF> AndyS: HP was quite well aware of this issue and noted that there is a call for IP disclosures when a FPWD is published

Andy Seaborne: HP was quite well aware of this issue and noted that there is a call for IP disclosures when a FPWD is published [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

14:22:28 <LeeF> ivanh: Acknowledged; other groups are less flexible with respect to knowing potential IP issues

Ivan Herman: Acknowledged; other groups are less flexible with respect to knowing potential IP issues [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

14:22:35 <LeeF> AndyS: will we all need to rejoin the WG?

Andy Seaborne: will we all need to rejoin the WG? [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

14:22:39 <SteveH> wondering what the risk of not being rechartered is

Steve Harris: wondering what the risk of not being rechartered is

14:23:04 <LeeF> ericP: I believe so.

Eric Prud'hommeaux: I believe so. [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

14:23:40 <LeeF> AndyS: I don't think I could justify the new charter within my organization

Andy Seaborne: I don't think I could justify the new charter within my organization [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

14:24:29 <LeeF> ericP: I think for phase I we could continue the existing membership, but for phase II people would need to re-join

Eric Prud'hommeaux: I think for phase I we could continue the existing membership, but for phase II people would need to re-join [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

14:24:46 <SteveH> q+

Steve Harris: q+

14:24:50 <LeeF> AndyS: if there's no grace period it will be very rough

Andy Seaborne: if there's no grace period it will be very rough [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

14:25:23 <LeeF> AndyS: concern about publication - editors' drafts have been publicly available in the past - the difference between editors' draft being publicly available and FPWD is not that big

Andy Seaborne: concern about publication - editors' drafts have been publicly available in the past - the difference between editors' draft being publicly available and FPWD is not that big [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

14:25:43 <LeeF> ivanh: difference is in commitment from WG and IP commitment

Ivan Herman: difference is in commitment from WG and IP commitment [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

14:26:00 <LeeF> AndyS: I'm not sure if putting information in public exposes the editor's organization

Andy Seaborne: I'm not sure if putting information in public exposes the editor's organization [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

14:27:05 <chimezie> zakim, mute me

Chime Ogbuji: zakim, mute me

14:27:05 <Zakim> chimezie was already muted, chimezie

Zakim IRC Bot: chimezie was already muted, chimezie

14:27:07 <ivanh> ack SteveH

ack SteveH

14:27:17 <LeeF> ivanh: if work is done on wiki as joint WG work, might not be an issue

Ivan Herman: if work is done on wiki as joint WG work, might not be an issue [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

14:27:43 <LeeF> SteveH: is there middle ground with a formal pause between 2 phases rather than a full rechartering? is this new standard operating procedure?

Steve Harris: is there middle ground with a formal pause between 2 phases rather than a full rechartering? is this new standard operating procedure? [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

14:28:03 <Zakim> + +1.415.371.aaff

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.415.371.aaff

14:28:09 <LeeF> ivanh: this occurred because the initial charter was too broad

Ivan Herman: this occurred because the initial charter was too broad [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

14:28:19 <LeeF> ... might have been better with initial work as a short-lived XG

Lee Feigenbaum: ... might have been better with initial work as a short-lived XG

14:29:14 <LeeF> SteveH: it's not a guarantee that phase II will happen (get rechartered

Steve Harris: it's not a guarantee that phase II will happen (get rechartered [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

14:29:20 <LeeF> s/rechartered/rechartered)/

Lee Feigenbaum: s/rechartered/rechartered)/

14:29:36 <LeeF> ivanh: yes, that's a risk, we tried to avoid it but it didn't work out

Ivan Herman: yes, that's a risk, we tried to avoid it but it didn't work out [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

14:29:48 <LeeF> zakim, aaff is dnewman2

Lee Feigenbaum: zakim, aaff is dnewman2

14:29:49 <Zakim> +dnewman2; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +dnewman2; got it

14:30:15 <LeeF> SteveH: what happens if the AC rejects the rechartering?

Steve Harris: what happens if the AC rejects the rechartering? [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

14:30:42 <LeeF> ericP: The Director has some leeway. Given the current state of affairs, I don't see this as a significant risk

Eric Prud'hommeaux: The Director has some leeway. Given the current state of affairs, I don't see this as a significant risk [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

14:31:05 <AndyS> s/I don't think I could justify the new charter within my organization/I don't think I could justify the nwe charter without internal review within my organsiation/

Andy Seaborne: s/I don't think I could justify the new charter within my organization/I don't think I could justify the nwe charter without internal review within my organsiation/

14:36:01 <ericP> AndyS, SteveH, would a note to public-rdf-dawg would have make this better?

Eric Prud'hommeaux: AndyS, SteveH, would a note to public-rdf-dawg would have make this better?

14:36:06 <SteveH> yes

Steve Harris: yes

14:36:30 <AndyS> No

Andy Seaborne: No

14:37:07 <AndyS> Notifying current members before it went wide would have been helpful.  Notify - not discuss.

Andy Seaborne: Notifying current members before it went wide would have been helpful. Notify - not discuss.

14:37:23 <SteveH> yes, dicsussion is not neccesary

Steve Harris: yes, dicsussion is not neccesary

14:37:24 <ericP> (there's also the question of what volume of mutterings consitute time to alarm folks)

Eric Prud'hommeaux: (there's also the question of what volume of mutterings consitute time to alarm folks)

14:37:34 <ericP> s/consitute/consitutes/

Eric Prud'hommeaux: s/consitute/consitutes/

14:38:14 <ivanh> topic: features discussions

4. features discussions

14:38:20 <ivanh> subtopic: parameterized inference

4.1. parameterized inference

Summary: initial straw poll gives (+/0/-): 4/3/5

<LeeF> summary: initial straw poll gives (+/0/-): 4/3/5
14:38:22 <LeeF> -> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Feature:ParameterizedInference

Lee Feigenbaum: -> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Feature:ParameterizedInference

14:38:26 <chimezie> zakim, unmute me

Chime Ogbuji: zakim, unmute me

14:38:26 <Zakim> chimezie should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: chimezie should no longer be muted

14:38:39 <ivanh> LeeF: there has been a bunch of discussions on that

Lee Feigenbaum: there has been a bunch of discussions on that

14:38:54 <ivanh> chimezie, can you summarize?

chimezie, can you summarize?

14:39:25 <ivanh> chimezie: the link has a descriptioin for the general requirements

Chime Ogbuji: the link has a descriptioin for the general requirements

14:39:50 <ivanh> .. .last week we proposed the parametrization was used to describe the inference regime

.. .last week we proposed the parametrization was used to describe the inference regime

14:40:00 <ivanh> ... this would go beyond owl

... this would go beyond owl

14:40:11 <ivanh> ... the wiki also mentions merging datasets

... the wiki also mentions merging datasets

14:40:16 <LeeF> q+ to ask if merging datasets is the same as composite dataset issue

Lee Feigenbaum: q+ to ask if merging datasets is the same as composite dataset issue

14:40:39 <ivanh> ... from ontologies or rules into the graph

... from ontologies or rules into the graph

14:40:51 <ivanh> ... that overlaps with the previous feature

... that overlaps with the previous feature

14:41:06 <ivanh> ... there was a possibility to break this thing into a separate feature

... there was a possibility to break this thing into a separate feature

14:41:28 <ivanh> ... the last thing is to parametrize whether an ent. regime would give all possible answers or not, for example

... the last thing is to parametrize whether an ent. regime would give all possible answers or not, for example

14:41:39 <ivanh> ... the general idea is to parametrize the possible answers

... the general idea is to parametrize the possible answers

14:42:06 <ivanh> LeeF: is the topic of merging the same as composite datatypes

Lee Feigenbaum: is the topic of merging the same as composite datatypes

14:42:08 <AndyS> q+ to ask about protocol implications

Andy Seaborne: q+ to ask about protocol implications

14:42:12 <LeeF> s/datatypes/datasets

Lee Feigenbaum: s/datatypes/datasets

14:42:28 <ivanh> chimezie: yes, but if you want an additional answers, do you have to bring the data in, for example

Chime Ogbuji: yes, but if you want an additional answers, do you have to bring the data in, for example

14:42:31 <ivanh> q+

q+

14:43:07 <ivanh> LeeF: is it fair to say that the issue is giving all possible answers vs. not is a detail that can be worked out later, or has to discussed upfront

Lee Feigenbaum: is it fair to say that the issue is giving all possible answers vs. not is a detail that can be worked out later, or has to discussed upfront

14:43:37 <SteveH> Zakim, who's talking

Steve Harris: Zakim, who's talking

14:43:37 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who's talking', SteveH

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'who's talking', SteveH

14:43:38 <ivanh> chimezie: i do not think we have to answer this question now

Chime Ogbuji: i do not think we have to answer this question now

14:43:50 <LeeF> ack leef

Lee Feigenbaum: ack leef

14:43:50 <Zakim> LeeF, you wanted to ask if merging datasets is the same as composite dataset issue

Zakim IRC Bot: LeeF, you wanted to ask if merging datasets is the same as composite dataset issue

14:43:52 <LeeF> ack AndyS

Lee Feigenbaum: ack AndyS

14:43:53 <john-l> Zakim, please mute me

John Clark: Zakim, please mute me

14:43:53 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to ask about protocol implications

Zakim IRC Bot: AndyS, you wanted to ask about protocol implications

14:43:55 <SimonS> q+

Simon Schenk: q+

14:43:56 <Zakim> john-l should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: john-l should now be muted

14:44:06 <ivanh> AndyS: this looks like describing the environment where the query executes

Andy Seaborne: this looks like describing the environment where the query executes

14:44:15 <ivanh> ... do we want that to be in the protocol, too

... do we want that to be in the protocol, too

14:45:07 <ivanh> chimezie: i believe that the environment is for a set of query?

Chime Ogbuji: i believe that the environment is for a set of query?

14:45:35 <ivanh> AndyS: al lthe examples have a syntax for replacing datasets

Andy Seaborne: al lthe examples have a syntax for replacing datasets

14:45:36 <Zakim> On IRC I see dnewman2, ericP, LukeWM_, SteveH, ivanh, SimonS, Zakim, RRSAgent, chimezie, kasei, AndyS, AndyS_, LeeF, trackbot, john-l

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see dnewman2, ericP, LukeWM_, SteveH, ivanh, SimonS, Zakim, RRSAgent, chimezie, kasei, AndyS, AndyS_, LeeF, trackbot, john-l

14:45:41 <LeeF> zakim, mute aaee

Lee Feigenbaum: zakim, mute aaee

14:45:41 <Zakim> +1.479.864.aaee should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: +1.479.864.aaee should now be muted

14:45:48 <ivanh> ... could one consider protocol entries instead of the query

... could one consider protocol entries instead of the query

14:45:55 <SimonS> q-

Simon Schenk: q-

14:46:01 <ivanh> chimezie: you mean being in the http request body?

Chime Ogbuji: you mean being in the http request body?

14:46:26 <ivanh> AndyS: we have default graph uri in the query, something like that ought to be considered

Andy Seaborne: we have default graph uri in the query, something like that ought to be considered

14:46:28 <LeeF> res discussions

Lee Feigenbaum: res discussions

14:46:47 <LeeF> q?

Lee Feigenbaum: q?

14:46:47 <ivanh> chimezie: it would be a similar request adn we should probably consider that

Chime Ogbuji: it would be a similar request adn we should probably consider that

14:46:59 <LeeF> ack ivanh

Lee Feigenbaum: ack ivanh

14:47:27 <AndyS> I see two features - inference control and dataset composition.  Related but different.

Andy Seaborne: I see two features - inference control and dataset composition. Related but different.

14:47:45 <LeeF> AndyS, I agree with you - there is also service description, but we've considered that on its own already

Lee Feigenbaum: AndyS, I agree with you - there is also service description, but we've considered that on its own already

14:47:47 <SimonS> ack.

Simon Schenk: ack.

14:48:22 <AndyS> Yes - service description is the service controlling things - this is query controlling things.

Andy Seaborne: Yes - service description is the service controlling things - this is query controlling things.

14:48:34 <LeeF> AndyS, agreed.

Lee Feigenbaum: AndyS, agreed.

14:49:34 <ivanh> LeeF: i see two different things for the 'vote', inference control and dataset composition

Lee Feigenbaum: i see two different things for the 'vote', inference control and dataset composition

14:49:55 <chimezie> zakim, mute me

Chime Ogbuji: zakim, mute me

14:49:55 <Zakim> chimezie should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: chimezie should now be muted

14:50:07 <ivanh> let us do a sraw poll on the inference control/description

let us do a sraw poll on the inference control/description

14:50:45 <SimonS> +q

Simon Schenk: +q

14:50:49 <ivanh> ... whether it is on the protocol or the language level are details, we should have a poll on whether this particular feature is to be considered

... whether it is on the protocol or the language level are details, we should have a poll on whether this particular feature is to be considered

14:50:54 <LeeF> ack SimonS

Lee Feigenbaum: ack SimonS

14:51:08 <chimezie> zakim, unmute me

Chime Ogbuji: zakim, unmute me

14:51:08 <Zakim> chimezie should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: chimezie should no longer be muted

14:51:12 <ivanh> SimonS: i think this is useful, but it is very fuzzy, there are so many different things one could do

Simon Schenk: i think this is useful, but it is very fuzzy, there are so many different things one could do

14:51:23 <ivanh> ... we need clarification before working on the details

... we need clarification before working on the details

14:51:47 <ivanh> ... i have the feeling that we are mixing different things here, bringing in rules for example

... i have the feeling that we are mixing different things here, bringing in rules for example

14:51:56 <ivanh> ... in principle I think this is useful

... in principle I think this is useful

14:52:12 <ivanh> LeeF: any other comments?

Lee Feigenbaum: any other comments?

14:52:14 <ivanh> ....

....

14:52:16 <ivanh> ....

....

14:52:20 <SteveH> -1, too early, not enough experience

Steve Harris: -1, too early, not enough experience

14:52:21 <ericP> -1 # fear it would distract from my highest priorities: update and lists

Eric Prud'hommeaux: -1 # fear it would distract from my highest priorities: update and lists

14:52:33 <kasei> 0

Greg Williams: 0

14:52:35 <ivanh> +1

+1

14:52:35 <john-l> 0

John Clark: 0

14:52:36 <chimezie> +1 extends usefulness of SPARQL

Chime Ogbuji: +1 extends usefulness of SPARQL

14:52:40 <dnewman2> +1 useful feature

Dave Newman: +1 useful feature

14:52:51 <AndyS> -1, too early not enough implementation experience. Use extensions

Andy Seaborne: -1, too early not enough implementation experience. Use extensions

14:53:01 <chimezie> zakim, mute me

Chime Ogbuji: zakim, mute me

14:53:02 <Zakim> chimezie should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: chimezie should now be muted

14:53:06 <LeeF> Orri: +1 (will not be trivial, but important)

Orri Erling: +1 (will not be trivial, but important) [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

14:53:09 <SimonS> -1 useful, but too fuzzy. Other priorities

Simon Schenk: -1 useful, but too fuzzy. Other priorities

14:53:12 <LeeF> 0

Lee Feigenbaum: 0

14:53:23 <Zakim> - +1.479.864.aaee

Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.479.864.aaee

14:53:31 <LukeWM_> -1 seems vague at the moment

Luke Wilson-Mawer: -1 seems vague at the moment

14:53:43 <ivanh> q+

q+

14:54:03 <chimezie> zakim unmute me

Chime Ogbuji: zakim unmute me

14:54:04 <Zakim> + +1.479.864.aagg

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.479.864.aagg

14:54:36 <SteveH> q+

Steve Harris: q+

14:54:43 <ivanh> ack ivanh

ack ivanh

14:54:45 <AndyS> q+

Andy Seaborne: q+

14:55:01 <chimezie> q+ to respond to LeeF

Chime Ogbuji: q+ to respond to LeeF

14:55:28 <dnewman2> +q

Dave Newman: +q

14:55:32 <LeeF> ack SteveH

Lee Feigenbaum: ack SteveH

14:55:44 <ivanh> SteveH: people have been doing this for some time without this feature

Steve Harris: people have been doing this for some time without this feature

14:55:45 <LeeF> ivanh: how is SPARQL/OWL useful without this?

Ivan Herman: how is SPARQL/OWL useful without this? [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

14:56:08 <ivanh> ... people have been doing that for a while

... people have been doing that for a while

14:56:16 <AndyS> ack AndyS

Andy Seaborne: ack AndyS

14:56:26 <LeeF> LeeF: there are other ways (rather than specifying in the query) to know that you are querying an endpoint that does SPARQL/OWL

Lee Feigenbaum: there are other ways (rather than specifying in the query) to know that you are querying an endpoint that does SPARQL/OWL [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

14:56:31 <ivanh> AndyS: much the same thing as SteveH..

Andy Seaborne: much the same thing as SteveH..

14:58:31 <LeeF> ack chimezie

Lee Feigenbaum: ack chimezie

14:58:33 <Zakim> chimezie, you wanted to respond to LeeF

Zakim IRC Bot: chimezie, you wanted to respond to LeeF

14:58:47 <ivanh> chimezie: i think there is a confusion what this suggests and what bijan suggested

Chime Ogbuji: i think there is a confusion what this suggests and what bijan suggested

14:59:06 <ivanh> ... the only thing is which particular entailment regime you use

... the only thing is which particular entailment regime you use

14:59:36 <ivanh> LeeF: my problem was the maturity of the different entailement regimes

Lee Feigenbaum: my problem was the maturity of the different entailement regimes

14:59:56 <ivanh> ... the interplay with the query language, how would you put it into the query language

... the interplay with the query language, how would you put it into the query language

15:00:08 <LeeF> s/was the maturity/was not the maturity

Lee Feigenbaum: s/was the maturity/was not the maturity

15:00:10 <LeeF> zakim, mute Orri

Lee Feigenbaum: zakim, mute Orri

15:00:10 <Zakim> Orri should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: Orri should now be muted

15:00:24 <ivanh> (scribe had to give up)

(scribe had to give up)

15:01:00 <ivanh> chimezie: if you separate the inclusion of ent regime from the answer itself,

Chime Ogbuji: if you separate the inclusion of ent regime from the answer itself,

15:01:11 <ivanh> ... we need to standardize this

... we need to standardize this

15:01:27 <ivanh> ... otherwise we cannot move one query from one place to the other

... otherwise we cannot move one query from one place to the other

15:01:32 <ivanh> q+

q+

15:01:41 <LeeF> ack dnewman2

Lee Feigenbaum: ack dnewman2

15:01:43 <LeeF> ack dnewman

Lee Feigenbaum: ack dnewman

15:02:16 <ivanh> dnewman2: end user prospective, we are talking about using sparql to dynamically trigger inferencing at the point of the query

Dave Newman: end user prospective, we are talking about using sparql to dynamically trigger inferencing at the point of the query

15:02:22 <ivanh> ... that to me is a very useful feature

... that to me is a very useful feature

15:02:35 <chimezie> Seems like there is 1) Which entailment regime should answers be conditioned on 2) Is this specified in the query langauge and/or the protocol 3) how are datasets composed

Chime Ogbuji: Seems like there is 1) Which entailment regime should answers be conditioned on 2) Is this specified in the query langauge and/or the protocol 3) how are datasets composed

15:02:38 <ivanh> ... we have come across this request, and it is very high on our wish list

... we have come across this request, and it is very high on our wish list

15:02:44 <chimezie> zakim, mute me

Chime Ogbuji: zakim, mute me

15:02:44 <Zakim> chimezie should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: chimezie should now be muted

15:02:45 <ivanh> q-

q-

15:02:57 <ericP> dnewman2, would being able to choose between two endpoints which offered no entailment and entailmentX suffice for your needs?

Eric Prud'hommeaux: dnewman2, would being able to choose between two endpoints which offered no entailment and entailmentX suffice for your needs?

15:03:14 <ivanh> q+

q+

15:03:29 <chimezie> I don't think SPARQL-DL requires (USING ... for example)

Chime Ogbuji: I don't think SPARQL-DL requires (USING ... for example)

15:03:47 <SteveH> what about using entailments in some parts of the query and not others for example. is an example of something that curretn systems do, but this proposal does not address

Steve Harris: what about using entailments in some parts of the query and not others for example. is an example of something that curretn systems do, but this proposal does not address

15:03:48 <chimezie> it just expects additional answers to queries WRT OWL-DL entailment

Chime Ogbuji: it just expects additional answers to queries WRT OWL-DL entailment

15:04:12 <chimezie> SPARQL-DL being Bijan's proposal

Chime Ogbuji: SPARQL-DL being Bijan's proposal

15:04:48 <LeeF> ivanh: Bijan's proposal [SPARQL/OWL] describes what answers to expect when querying under DL entailment

Ivan Herman: Bijan's proposal [SPARQL/OWL] describes what answers to expect when querying under DL entailment [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

15:05:04 <LeeF> ... there are other entailment regimes

Lee Feigenbaum: ... there are other entailment regimes

15:05:07 <ericP> foaf-smushing is a high-profile candidate entailment

Eric Prud'hommeaux: foaf-smushing is a high-profile candidate entailment

15:05:11 <LeeF> ... no answer for how to choose it

Lee Feigenbaum: ... no answer for how to choose it

15:05:20 <chimezie> SteveH: I'm not sure how you can specify the conditions on a query at such a level of granularity (i.e., specific parts of the query)

Steve Harris: I'm not sure how you can specify the conditions on a query at such a level of granularity (i.e., specific parts of the query) [ Scribe Assist by Chime Ogbuji ]

15:05:20 <LeeF> ... one possibility is multiple query endpoints

Lee Feigenbaum: ... one possibility is multiple query endpoints

15:05:31 <LeeF> s/SteveH:/SteveH,/

Lee Feigenbaum: s/SteveH:/SteveH,/

15:05:45 <SteveH> chimezie, well, jena does that now I believe, and my old systems did too

Steve Harris: chimezie, well, jena does that now I believe, and my old systems did too

15:06:01 <SteveH> chimezie, it's not really that hard, and quite essential

Steve Harris: chimezie, it's not really that hard, and quite essential

15:06:04 <SimonS> we do multiple graphs instead of multiple endpoints.

Simon Schenk: we do multiple graphs instead of multiple endpoints.

15:06:13 <SteveH> ditto

Steve Harris: ditto

15:07:30 <AndyS> ditto

Andy Seaborne: ditto

15:08:07 <SimonS> Views can then be used to combine the results from multiple graphs.

Simon Schenk: Views can then be used to combine the results from multiple graphs.

15:08:22 <SteveH> ivanh, the proposal where you give an entailment regime for the whole query is sufficiently behind the state of the art that I don't believe it covers the common use-cases

Steve Harris: ivanh, the proposal where you give an entailment regime for the whole query is sufficiently behind the state of the art that I don't believe it covers the common use-cases

15:08:53 <ivanh> SteveH, let us discuss this on the list. I may not understand the issue then

SteveH, let us discuss this on the list. I may not understand the issue then

15:11:28 <chimezie> I guess I'm more concerned about how the user specifies exactly the semantics  of 'partial' entailments like that, not so much how they are implemented

Chime Ogbuji: I guess I'm more concerned about how the user specifies exactly the semantics of 'partial' entailments like that, not so much how they are implemented

<LeeF> Adjourned.

Lee Feigenbaum: Adjourned.



Formatted by CommonScribe


This revision (#1) generated 2009-04-14 18:03:37 UTC by 'lfeigenb', comments: 'Thanks to Ivan for scribing.'