SPARQL Working Group

Minutes of 24 March 2009

Present
Greg Williams Yimin Wang Kjetil Kjernsmo Axel Polleres John Clark Jacek Kopecký Alex Passant Chime Ogbuji Steve Harris Luke Wilson-Mawer Andy Seaborne Simon Schenk Souri Das Eric Prud'hommeaux Ivan Mikhailov Dave Newman Lee Feigenbaum Orri Erling
Regrets
Lee Feigenbaum
Chair
Axel Polleres
Scribe
Andy Seaborne
IRC Log
Original and Editable Wiki Version
Resolutions
  1. Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-03-17 link
  2. not standardize query by reference link
Topics
  1. Admin

  2. F2F

    Two-site face-to-face May 6-7 in Cambridge, MA, US and Bristol, UK

  3. Liasons

  4. Parameters

    initial straw poll gives (+/0/-): 8/5/4

  5. Query by reference

    initial straw poll gives (+/0/-): 0/9/7

  6. return format

    initial straw poll gives (+/0/-): 1/6/6

  7. service description

    initial straw poll gives (+/0/-): Mint URIs: 7/0/0 Servide description: 9/3/1

  8. commenst and warnings

<LeeF> present: kasei,  ywang4, kjetil, AxelPolleres, john-l, JacekK, AlexPassant, Chimezie_Ogbuji, SteveH, LukeWM, AndyS, SimonS, Souri, ericP, iv_an_ru, DaveNewman, LeeF, Orri
14:05:19 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #sparql

RRSAgent IRC Bot: RRSAgent has joined #sparql

14:05:19 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/03/24-sparql-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/03/24-sparql-irc

14:05:37 <JacekK> rrsagent, this will be sparql

Jacek Kopecký: rrsagent, this will be sparql

14:05:37 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'this will be sparql', JacekK.  Try /msg RRSAgent help

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I'm logging. I don't understand 'this will be sparql', JacekK. Try /msg RRSAgent help

14:06:13 <AndyS> scribenick: AndyS

(Scribe set to Andy Seaborne)

14:06:17 <AxelPolleres> Regrets: LeeF
14:06:17 <Zakim> +Souri

Zakim IRC Bot: +Souri

14:06:17 <AxelPolleres> chair: Axel Polleres
14:07:08 <AxelPolleres> scribe: Andy
14:07:08 <AxelPolleres> scribenick: AndyS
14:07:15 <AxelPolleres> Link to Agenda:  http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2009-03-24

Axel Polleres: Link to Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2009-03-24

14:07:25 <AxelPolleres> Topic: Admin

1. Admin

14:08:01 <AxelPolleres> PROPOSED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-03-17

PROPOSED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-03-17

14:08:02 <AndyS> Next time: telecon is 15:00 GMTDT

Next time: telecon is 15:00 GMTDT

14:08:32 <AndyS> ... back to normal now timezones shifted everytwhwre that's going to.

... back to normal now timezones shifted everytwhwre that's going to.

14:08:34 <AxelPolleres> RESOLVED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-03-17

RESOLVED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-03-17

14:08:51 <AndyS> Scribe next time: Souri

Scribe next time: Souri

14:09:12 <AndyS> Topic: F2F

2. F2F

Summary: Two-site face-to-face May 6-7 in Cambridge, MA, US and Bristol, UK

<LeeF> summary: Two-site face-to-face May 6-7 in Cambridge, MA, US and Bristol, UK
14:09:47 <AndyS> AndyS: Videoconf tested: Bristol - MIT

Andy Seaborne: Videoconf tested: Bristol - MIT

14:10:08 <AndyS> Axel: Any concerns for a 2 site F2F?

Axel Polleres: Any concerns for a 2 site F2F?

14:10:15 <SteveH> Bristol is good for LukeWM and SteveH

Steve Harris: Bristol is good for LukeWM and SteveH

14:10:26 <AxelPolleres> Bristol

Axel Polleres: Bristol

14:10:28 <AlexPassant> Bristol would be ok for me

Alex Passant: Bristol would be ok for me

14:10:30 <SimonS> Bristol

Simon Schenk: Bristol

14:10:31 <kasei> MIT

Greg Williams: MIT

14:10:34 <AndyS> AndyS: Bristol

Andy Seaborne: Bristol

14:10:36 <JacekK> UIBK would probably prefer Bristol

Jacek Kopecký: UIBK would probably prefer Bristol

14:10:36 <john-l> Most likely site would be Cambridge

John Clark: Most likely site would be Cambridge

14:10:49 <ywang4> i will be in cambridge

Yimin Wang: i will be in cambridge

14:10:52 <LeeF> I'll be in cambridge

Lee Feigenbaum: I'll be in cambridge

14:11:41 <AndyS> ACTION: Axel: To ask EricP to setup a WBS for the F2F

ACTION: Axel: To ask EricP to setup a WBS for the F2F

14:11:41 <Souri> Souri has joined #sparql

Souri Das: Souri has joined #sparql

14:11:41 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1 - Ask EricP to setup a WBS for the F2F [on Axel Polleres - due 2009-03-31].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-1 - Ask EricP to setup a WBS for the F2F [on Axel Polleres - due 2009-03-31].

14:12:25 <AndyS> Topic: Liasons

3. Liasons

14:13:12 <SimonS> SimonS has joined #sparql

Simon Schenk: SimonS has joined #sparql

14:13:20 <AndyS> Orri: RDB2RDF - no WG just yet - chartering started

Orri Erling: RDB2RDF - no WG just yet - chartering started

14:13:55 <AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Category:Features

Axel Polleres: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Category:Features

14:14:26 <Zakim> +Philippe

Zakim IRC Bot: +Philippe

14:14:35 <AndyS> No new features added.

No new features added.

14:14:54 <Zakim> +??P38

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P38

14:14:59 <AxelPolleres> topic: Parameters

4. Parameters

Summary: initial straw poll gives (+/0/-): 8/5/4

<LeeF> summary: initial straw poll gives (+/0/-): 8/5/4
14:15:01 <kjetil> Zakim, ??P38 is me

Kjetil Kjernsmo: Zakim, ??P38 is me

14:15:01 <Zakim> +kjetil; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +kjetil; got it

14:15:09 <kjetil> Zakim, mute me

Kjetil Kjernsmo: Zakim, mute me

14:15:09 <Zakim> kjetil should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: kjetil should now be muted

14:15:13 <AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Feature:Parameters

Axel Polleres: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Feature:Parameters

14:15:28 <AndyS> Orri to present

Orri to present

14:16:14 <AndyS> Variable bindings.

Variable bindings.

14:17:07 <AndyS> Majority use named variables but other systems do differentiate (for checking)

Majority use named variables but other systems do differentiate (for checking)

14:17:42 <Zakim> + +01212803aabb

Zakim IRC Bot: + +01212803aabb

14:17:54 <AndyS> Virtuoso has used this with BSBM (which has many small queries) to some advantage

Virtuoso has used this with BSBM (which has many small queries) to some advantage

14:18:05 <iv_an_ru> Zakim, +01212803aabb is me

Ivan Mikhailov: Zakim, +01212803aabb is me

14:18:05 <Zakim> +iv_an_ru; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +iv_an_ru; got it

14:19:01 <AndyS> Orri: allows caching query planning

Orri Erling: allows caching query planning

14:19:07 <Souri> This is similar to bind variables

Souri Das: This is similar to bind variables

14:19:09 <AxelPolleres> argument for distinction: distinguish required parameters that must be bound?

Axel Polleres: argument for distinction: distinguish required parameters that must be bound?

14:19:18 <kjetil> q+ to ask if there are other ways to do it?

Kjetil Kjernsmo: q+ to ask if there are other ways to do it?

14:19:34 <AndyS> EricP: simple is to substitute for the variable value.

Eric Prud'hommeaux: simple is to substitute for the variable value.

14:20:09 <kasei> ericP's FeDeRate work seems like a generalization of this, but with changes to sparql syntax

Greg Williams: ericP's FeDeRate work seems like a generalization of this, but with changes to sparql syntax

14:20:09 <kjetil> ack me

Kjetil Kjernsmo: ack me

14:20:11 <Zakim> kjetil, you wanted to ask if there are other ways to do it?

Zakim IRC Bot: kjetil, you wanted to ask if there are other ways to do it?

14:20:38 <ericP> q+ to ask relative importance to e.g. update

Eric Prud'hommeaux: q+ to ask relative importance to e.g. update

14:20:49 <AndyS> kjetil: are there other ways?

Kjetil Kjernsmo: are there other ways?

14:20:59 <AndyS> Orri: yes but this is understood

Orri Erling: yes but this is understood

14:21:18 <AndyS> q+

q+

14:21:26 <ericP> ack me

Eric Prud'hommeaux: ack me

14:21:26 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to ask relative importance to e.g. update

Zakim IRC Bot: ericP, you wanted to ask relative importance to e.g. update

14:21:34 <kjetil> Zakim, mute me

Kjetil Kjernsmo: Zakim, mute me

14:21:34 <Zakim> kjetil should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: kjetil should now be muted

14:21:39 <SteveH> it depends on the capability of your optimiser, comprehensive ones won't always be able to reuse the parse tree

Steve Harris: it depends on the capability of your optimiser, comprehensive ones won't always be able to reuse the parse tree

14:21:44 <AndyS> EricP: how important is this to Orri?

Eric Prud'hommeaux: how important is this to Orri?

14:22:14 <AndyS> Orri: update is more important but this is most important on protocol.

Orri Erling: update is more important but this is most important on protocol.

14:22:23 <SteveH> -1

Steve Harris: -1

14:22:25 <kjetil> +1

Kjetil Kjernsmo: +1

14:22:25 <AlexPassant> 0

Alex Passant: 0

14:22:27 <kasei> +1

Greg Williams: +1

14:22:27 <AndyS> ack me

ack me

14:22:29 <john-l> +1

John Clark: +1

14:22:30 <Souri> 0

Souri Das: 0

14:22:31 <chimezie> +1 (brings SPARQL protocol that much closer to typical HTTP behavior)

Chime Ogbuji: +1 (brings SPARQL protocol that much closer to typical HTTP behavior)

14:22:31 <JacekK> +1

Jacek Kopecký: +1

14:22:35 <AxelPolleres> 0

Axel Polleres: 0

14:22:38 <ericP> -1 (hae other priorities)

Eric Prud'hommeaux: -1 (hae other priorities)

14:22:41 <iv_an_ru> +0.5

Ivan Mikhailov: +0.5

14:22:41 <SteveH> LukeWM: -1 (FWIW

Luke Wilson-Mawer: -1 (FWIW [ Scribe Assist by Steve Harris ]

14:22:42 <SimonS> +1

Simon Schenk: +1

14:22:47 <ericP> s/hae/have/

Eric Prud'hommeaux: s/hae/have/

14:22:49 <AndyS> -1 (unclear alternatives)

-1 (unclear alternatives)

14:22:49 <LeeF> 0

Lee Feigenbaum: 0

14:23:06 <ywang4> 0

Yimin Wang: 0

14:24:24 <LeeF> To me, standardizing parameters seems to have a modest but not huge interoperability benefit, fwiw/.

Lee Feigenbaum: To me, standardizing parameters seems to have a modest but not huge interoperability benefit, fwiw/.

14:24:36 <SteveH> LeeF, not if we get it wrong

Steve Harris: LeeF, not if we get it wrong

14:24:59 <LeeF> SteveH, acknowledged

Lee Feigenbaum: SteveH, acknowledged

14:25:18 <chimezie> I think the argument for closer interaction with HTTP and the query language is a stronger argument for me

Chime Ogbuji: I think the argument for closer interaction with HTTP and the query language is a stronger argument for me

14:25:33 <SteveH> [to repeat what I said on the phone] the current implementations have serious side effects

Steve Harris: [to repeat what I said on the phone] the current implementations have serious side effects

14:25:52 <AndyS> Axel: Orri, please send email about this.

Axel Polleres: Orri, please send email about this.

14:25:58 <LeeF> chimezie, I like that one too, in general, but it's less motivating (to me, personally & as chair) as a reason to work on standardizing it ahead of other things with greater interop benefits :)

Lee Feigenbaum: chimezie, I like that one too, in general, but it's less motivating (to me, personally & as chair) as a reason to work on standardizing it ahead of other things with greater interop benefits :)

14:26:04 <AxelPolleres> Orri: +1  to parameters

Orri Erling: +1 to parameters [ Scribe Assist by Axel Polleres ]

14:26:28 <AxelPolleres> topic: Query by reference

5. Query by reference

Summary: initial straw poll gives (+/0/-): 0/9/7

<LeeF> summary: initial straw poll gives (+/0/-): 0/9/7
14:26:45 <AndyS> Axel: may be related to parameters

Axel Polleres: may be related to parameters

14:26:48 <AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Feature:Query_by_reference

Axel Polleres: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Feature:Query_by_reference

14:26:54 <iv_an_ru> I'd add that params may make text more readable, esp. when their values are very long literals.

Ivan Mikhailov: I'd add that params may make text more readable, esp. when their values are very long literals.

14:26:55 <AndyS> ... sent by Leigh Dodds

... sent by Leigh Dodds

14:27:16 <SteveH> q+

Steve Harris: q+

14:27:21 <AndyS> .. ability to send a URI to the query, not the query itself.

.. ability to send a URI to the query, not the query itself.

14:27:23 <ericP> q+ to suggest the standardization wins aren't huge

Eric Prud'hommeaux: q+ to suggest the standardization wins aren't huge

14:27:29 <SimonS> +q

Simon Schenk: +q

14:27:36 <dnewman2> dnewman2 has joined #sparql

Dave Newman: dnewman2 has joined #sparql

14:27:53 <ericP> ack SteveH

Eric Prud'hommeaux: ack SteveH

14:28:07 <AndyS> SteveH: issues of security

Steve Harris: issues of security

14:28:09 <ericP> SteveH: not sure why it matters except in massive queries

Steve Harris: not sure why it matters except in massive queries [ Scribe Assist by Eric Prud'hommeaux ]

14:28:21 <chimezie> I agree on that point as well

Chime Ogbuji: I agree on that point as well

14:28:22 <ericP> ack SimonS

Eric Prud'hommeaux: ack SimonS

14:28:30 <Zakim> +DaveNewman

Zakim IRC Bot: +DaveNewman

14:28:36 <ericP> SimonS: limited use compared to security probs

Simon Schenk: limited use compared to security probs [ Scribe Assist by Eric Prud'hommeaux ]

14:28:48 <AndyS> Simon: useful is refer to views and combine with parameters

Simon Schenk: useful is refer to views and combine with parameters

14:28:52 <AndyS> s/is/if/

s/is/if/

14:29:01 <ericP> ... perhaps has more value when combined with views or parameters

Eric Prud'hommeaux: ... perhaps has more value when combined with views or parameters

14:29:03 <ericP> q-

Eric Prud'hommeaux: q-

14:29:04 <AndyS> ... else less value

... else less value

14:29:23 <iv_an_ru> I'd prefer "include" for views.

Ivan Mikhailov: I'd prefer "include" for views.

14:29:40 <AndyS> Orri: A view is (like) a subquery

Orri Erling: A view is (like) a subquery

14:29:59 <chimezie> The general security concern of executing external 'code'

Chime Ogbuji: The general security concern of executing external 'code'

14:30:09 <chimezie> especially now we might have update support

Chime Ogbuji: especially now we might have update support

14:30:14 <AndyS> Simon: security: server is pulling external input

Simon Schenk: security: server is pulling external input

14:30:19 <iv_an_ru> +1 to chimezie

Ivan Mikhailov: +1 to chimezie

14:30:35 <SteveH> the external request will be coming from the SPARQL processor machine, which may have IP=based security

Steve Harris: the external request will be coming from the SPARQL processor machine, which may have IP=based security

14:31:15 <ericP> SteveH: the request is issued by sparql processor which may be inside a firewall

Steve Harris: the request is issued by sparql processor which may be inside a firewall [ Scribe Assist by Eric Prud'hommeaux ]

14:31:50 <kasei> is this just a DOS issue (re: inside a firewall)? can't you do the same thing with "FROM <...>"?

Greg Williams: is this just a DOS issue (re: inside a firewall)? can't you do the same thing with "FROM <...>"?

14:31:50 <AndyS> ACTION: SteveH: Add to feature security issues

ACTION: SteveH: Add to feature security issues

14:31:50 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - SteveH

Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, couldn't find user - SteveH

14:32:17 <SteveH> -1

Steve Harris: -1

14:32:18 <ericP> -1

Eric Prud'hommeaux: -1

14:32:20 <chimezie> -1

Chime Ogbuji: -1

14:32:21 <john-l> -1

John Clark: -1

14:32:21 <Souri> -1

Souri Das: -1

14:32:22 <kjetil> -1

Kjetil Kjernsmo: -1

14:32:22 <AndyS> -1

-1

14:32:23 <kasei> 0

Greg Williams: 0

14:32:24 <AlexPassant> 0

Alex Passant: 0

14:32:26 <AxelPolleres> 0

Axel Polleres: 0

14:32:26 <LeeF> 0

Lee Feigenbaum: 0

14:32:27 <JacekK> 0

Jacek Kopecký: 0

14:32:29 <SimonS> 0

Simon Schenk: 0

14:32:29 <dnewman2> 0

Dave Newman: 0

14:32:32 <iv_an_ru> 0

Ivan Mikhailov: 0

14:32:54 <ericP> RESOLVED: not standardize query by reference

RESOLVED: not standardize query by reference

14:32:52 <AndyS> topic: return format

6. return format

Summary: initial straw poll gives (+/0/-): 1/6/6

<LeeF> summary: initial straw poll gives (+/0/-): 1/6/6
14:32:55 <AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Feature:ReturnFormatKeyword

Axel Polleres: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Feature:ReturnFormatKeyword

14:32:59 <ywang4> 0

Yimin Wang: 0

14:33:04 <AlexPassant> Zakim: ack me
None
14:33:18 <LeeF> ACTION: LeeF to figure out that silly trackbot and how it knows about users

ACTION: LeeF to figure out that silly trackbot and how it knows about users

14:33:18 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - LeeF

Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, couldn't find user - LeeF

14:33:39 <AndyS> Alex?

Alex?

14:33:43 <AxelPolleres> Zakim, unmute AlexPassant

Axel Polleres: Zakim, unmute AlexPassant

14:33:43 <Zakim> AlexPassant should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: AlexPassant should no longer be muted

14:34:17 <AndyS> Alex: common parameter for query results

Alex Passant: common parameter for query results

14:34:26 <SteveH> q+ to talk about redundancy with HTTP

Steve Harris: q+ to talk about redundancy with HTTP

14:34:29 <AndyS> .. has some implementation but diferent names, meanings

.. has some implementation but diferent names, meanings

14:34:50 <AndyS> .. switchign server costs

.. switchign server costs

14:35:13 <AndyS> ... simply to agree on keyword

... simply to agree on keyword

14:35:15 <AndyS> q+

q+

14:35:37 <LeeF> SteveH, I want to prematurely ask you if you know whether XmlHttpRequest implementations allow JavaScript (and other) clients to set Accept: headers for content negotiation

Lee Feigenbaum: SteveH, I want to prematurely ask you if you know whether XmlHttpRequest implementations allow JavaScript (and other) clients to set Accept: headers for content negotiation

14:35:53 <AndyS> SteveH: issues about having same thign in two places

Steve Harris: issues about having same thign in two places

14:36:09 <AndyS> ... also what about MIME types not keywords

... also what about MIME types not keywords

14:36:12 <SteveH> LeeF, I think they do, yes

Steve Harris: LeeF, I think they do, yes

14:36:31 <ericP> AndyS: same as steve's identifier (keyword) point

Andy Seaborne: same as steve's identifier (keyword) point [ Scribe Assist by Eric Prud'hommeaux ]

14:36:41 <ericP> ... is Alex open to media types?

Eric Prud'hommeaux: ... is Alex open to media types?

14:36:52 <AndyS> LeeF, they use output=

LeeF, they use output=

14:37:08 <ericP> AlexPassant: would agree, if it can be used the same way

Alex Passant: would agree, if it can be used the same way [ Scribe Assist by Eric Prud'hommeaux ]

14:37:11 <AndyS> was originally from Yahoo!

was originally from Yahoo!

14:37:19 <kjetil> q+

Kjetil Kjernsmo: q+

14:37:23 <AndyS> ack me

ack me

14:37:27 <SteveH> ack me

Steve Harris: ack me

14:37:27 <Zakim> SteveH, you wanted to talk about redundancy with HTTP

Zakim IRC Bot: SteveH, you wanted to talk about redundancy with HTTP

14:37:32 <ericP> ack SteveH

Eric Prud'hommeaux: ack SteveH

14:37:35 <kjetil> ack me

Kjetil Kjernsmo: ack me

14:37:53 <AndyS> kjetil: practical experience with JQuery.

Kjetil Kjernsmo: practical experience with JQuery.

14:38:17 <AndyS> ... Accept: did not work but using a parameter did.

... Accept: did not work but using a parameter did.

14:38:26 <ericP> kjetil: tried using Accept: but gave up do to a bad HTTP implementation

Kjetil Kjernsmo: tried using Accept: but gave up do to a bad HTTP implementation [ Scribe Assist by Eric Prud'hommeaux ]

14:38:27 <LeeF> My take on this one - probably best handled via recommendations in a WG Note, rather than a Rec track feature

Lee Feigenbaum: My take on this one - probably best handled via recommendations in a WG Note, rather than a Rec track feature

14:39:00 <chimezie> I agree with LeeF's suggestion

Chime Ogbuji: I agree with LeeF's suggestion

14:39:15 <AndyS> ... wants to work a bit on this to understand it before deciding (may reject then)

... wants to work a bit on this to understand it before deciding (may reject then)

14:39:17 <chimezie> I can imagine such a Note handling 'RESTFul' behavior for SPARQL services, for instance

Chime Ogbuji: I can imagine such a Note handling 'RESTFul' behavior for SPARQL services, for instance

14:39:22 <SteveH> it seems a bit like crossing a boundary to have it in the query language, rather than protocol

Steve Harris: it seems a bit like crossing a boundary to have it in the query language, rather than protocol

14:39:28 <ericP> i'm not inclined to write architectural work-arounds for implementation limitations

Eric Prud'hommeaux: i'm not inclined to write architectural work-arounds for implementation limitations

14:39:34 <SteveH> +1

Steve Harris: +1

14:39:40 <kjetil> Zakim, mute me

Kjetil Kjernsmo: Zakim, mute me

14:39:40 <Zakim> kjetil should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: kjetil should now be muted

14:40:24 <kjetil> Zakim, unmute me

Kjetil Kjernsmo: Zakim, unmute me

14:40:24 <Zakim> kjetil should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: kjetil should no longer be muted

14:40:56 <AndyS> ACTION: kjetil to update the wiki page with his experience (caveat: kjetil may be delayed in doing it)

ACTION: kjetil to update the wiki page with his experience (caveat: kjetil may be delayed in doing it)

14:40:57 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2 - Update the wiki page with his experience (caveat: kjetil may be delayed in doing it) [on Kjetil Kjernsmo - due 2009-03-31].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-2 - Update the wiki page with his experience (caveat: kjetil may be delayed in doing it) [on Kjetil Kjernsmo - due 2009-03-31].

14:41:04 <kjetil> Zakim, mute me

Kjetil Kjernsmo: Zakim, mute me

14:41:04 <Zakim> kjetil should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: kjetil should now be muted

14:41:11 <ericP> -1

Eric Prud'hommeaux: -1

14:41:12 <AndyS> 0

0

14:41:12 <kjetil> +1 on a Note

Kjetil Kjernsmo: +1 on a Note

<LeeF> (minutes edit: counting +1 on a Note as a 0 for purposes of the straw poll)

Lee Feigenbaum: (minutes edit: counting +1 on a Note as a 0 for purposes of the straw poll)

14:41:15 <SteveH> -1

Steve Harris: -1

14:41:17 <AlexPassant> +1

Alex Passant: +1

14:41:17 <iv_an_ru> I'd say that the &format=... is convenient for debugging, but that's not something that should be interoperable to the formal degree.

Ivan Mikhailov: I'd say that the &format=... is convenient for debugging, but that's not something that should be interoperable to the formal degree.

14:41:17 <SimonS> -1

Simon Schenk: -1

14:41:19 <john-l> 0

John Clark: 0

14:41:20 <LeeF> -1

Lee Feigenbaum: -1

14:41:20 <kasei> 0

Greg Williams: 0

14:41:22 <Zakim> -kjetil

Zakim IRC Bot: -kjetil

14:41:25 <Souri> 0

Souri Das: 0

14:41:28 <AxelPolleres> 0 the note may make sense indeed

Axel Polleres: 0 the note may make sense indeed

14:41:30 <kasei> (but +1 to a note)

Greg Williams: (but +1 to a note)

14:41:31 <iv_an_ru> +0.125 :)

Ivan Mikhailov: +0.125 :)

14:41:34 <JacekK> -1 to language keyword / protocol parameter

Jacek Kopecký: -1 to language keyword / protocol parameter

14:41:35 <kjetil> Zakim, unmute me

Kjetil Kjernsmo: Zakim, unmute me

14:41:35 <Zakim> kjetil.a was not muted, kjetil

Zakim IRC Bot: kjetil.a was not muted, kjetil

14:41:38 <chimezie> -1

Chime Ogbuji: -1

14:41:49 <kjetil> Zakim, mute me

Kjetil Kjernsmo: Zakim, mute me

14:41:49 <Zakim> kjetil.a should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: kjetil.a should now be muted

14:42:09 <AndyS> topic: service description

7. service description

Summary: initial straw poll gives (+/0/-): Mint URIs: 7/0/0 Servide description: 9/3/1

<LeeF> summary: initial straw poll gives (+/0/-): Mint URIs: 7/0/0 Servide description: 9/3/1
14:42:11 <AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Feature:ServiceDescriptions

Axel Polleres: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Feature:ServiceDescriptions

14:42:39 <AndyS> kasei: proposal to allow info for an endpoint in a common way + info about data at the endpoint

Greg Williams: proposal to allow info for an endpoint in a common way + info about data at the endpoint

14:43:06 <AndyS> ... miniting URIs for features and functions

... miniting URIs for features and functions

14:43:15 <AndyS> ... vocabulary for describing

... vocabulary for describing

14:43:21 <AndyS> ... postponed from last time

... postponed from last time

14:43:51 <AndyS> ... void, DARQ, SADDLE have experiemented here -- need a way to access this

... void, DARQ, SADDLE have experiemented here -- need a way to access this

14:44:03 <ericP> q+ to ask about commonality of impls

Eric Prud'hommeaux: q+ to ask about commonality of impls

14:44:08 <AndyS> ... (Those three are more about describign the data)

... (Those three are more about describign the data)

14:44:28 <iv_an_ru> The handle + vocabulary.

Ivan Mikhailov: The handle + vocabulary.

14:44:31 <LeeF> My main question on service description is whether it's more useful for "core" features, some of which may not be implemented by a not-fully-compliant implementation, vs. "extension" features, but i think that's a detail to work out later

Lee Feigenbaum: My main question on service description is whether it's more useful for "core" features, some of which may not be implemented by a not-fully-compliant implementation, vs. "extension" features, but i think that's a detail to work out later

14:45:00 <AndyS> ... DARQ and SADDLE are closer but not the complete answer

... DARQ and SADDLE are closer but not the complete answer

14:45:14 <AndyS> ... so draw from experience here

... so draw from experience here

14:45:32 <LeeF> In general, even though I think there is a substantial cost to specify service description correctly, it's my current favorite approach to encouraging extensibility & interop outside the WG

Lee Feigenbaum: In general, even though I think there is a substantial cost to specify service description correctly, it's my current favorite approach to encouraging extensibility & interop outside the WG

14:47:00 <AndyS> Orri: voiD OK for cardinality for dist. query system

Orri Erling: voiD OK for cardinality for dist. query system

14:47:14 <AndyS> ... maybe have a system graph (common name?)

... maybe have a system graph (common name?)

14:47:21 <ericP> q+ to ask if DARQ docs include SADDLe predicates

Eric Prud'hommeaux: q+ to ask if DARQ docs include SADDLe predicates

14:47:28 <SimonS> +q proposal for extension point

Simon Schenk: +q proposal for extension point

14:47:45 <SimonS> q+

Simon Schenk: q+

14:47:58 <LeeF> To me, system graph vs. protocol-something vs. new query form are implementation details, don't have to be decided right now

Lee Feigenbaum: To me, system graph vs. protocol-something vs. new query form are implementation details, don't have to be decided right now

14:48:16 <kjetil> q- proposal

Kjetil Kjernsmo: q- proposal

14:49:07 <AndyS> kasei: experimental use of DARQ and SADDLE - voiD popular for data description

Greg Williams: experimental use of DARQ and SADDLE - voiD popular for data description

14:49:32 <SimonS> q-

Simon Schenk: q-

14:49:37 <ericP> q-

Eric Prud'hommeaux: q-

14:49:49 <ericP> i think that standardizing info for federation is premature

Eric Prud'hommeaux: i think that standardizing info for federation is premature

14:49:58 <ericP> (cool, but premature)

Eric Prud'hommeaux: (cool, but premature)

14:50:15 <AndyS> Axel: volunteers to compare these 3?

Axel Polleres: volunteers to compare these 3?

14:50:28 <AndyS> kasei offers

kasei offers

14:50:51 <chimezie> we have a good start with this via current Wiki URLs

Chime Ogbuji: we have a good start with this via current Wiki URLs

14:50:58 <ericP> +1 to minting identifiers for functions and features

Eric Prud'hommeaux: +1 to minting identifiers for functions and features

14:51:12 <SteveH> +1

Steve Harris: +1

14:51:24 <JacekK> +1

Jacek Kopecký: +1

14:51:49 <AndyS> Votes about URIs for features

Votes about URIs for features

14:51:51 <JacekK> +1 to eric

Jacek Kopecký: +1 to eric

14:51:57 <AndyS> not the propsoal

not the propsoal

14:51:58 <ywang4> +1

Yimin Wang: +1

14:52:00 <iv_an_ru> +1

Ivan Mikhailov: +1

14:52:06 <chimezie> +1 for that (not the proposal)

Chime Ogbuji: +1 for that (not the proposal)

14:52:13 <LeeF> +1 (though less inclined without a way to get at them)

Lee Feigenbaum: +1 (though less inclined without a way to get at them)

14:52:31 <SimonS> +q

Simon Schenk: +q

14:52:37 <SteveH> I think the schema and HTTP header will evolve

Steve Harris: I think the schema and HTTP header will evolve

14:53:02 <SteveH> q+

Steve Harris: q+

14:53:11 <SimonS> I think minting URIs without a mechanism to get a description is a bit pointless

Simon Schenk: I think minting URIs without a mechanism to get a description is a bit pointless

14:54:14 <iv_an_ru> nice

Ivan Mikhailov: nice

14:55:03 <LeeF> +1 to Simon's comment

Lee Feigenbaum: +1 to Simon's comment

14:55:47 <kasei> +1

Greg Williams: +1

14:55:48 <AndyS> Strawpoll on capability to describve endpoints

Strawpoll on capability to describve endpoints

14:55:52 <JacekK> +1

Jacek Kopecký: +1

14:55:53 <kjetil> 0

Kjetil Kjernsmo: 0

14:55:54 <john-l> +1

John Clark: +1

14:55:54 <chimezie> +1

Chime Ogbuji: +1

14:55:55 <LeeF> +1

Lee Feigenbaum: +1

14:55:55 <SimonS> +1

Simon Schenk: +1

14:55:56 <AxelPolleres> strawpoll: enable service description of enfpoint

STRAWPOLL: enable service description of enfpoint

14:55:57 <iv_an_ru> +1

Ivan Mikhailov: +1

14:55:59 <AlexPassant> +1 (w/ mappings to existing vocabularies)

Alex Passant: +1 (w/ mappings to existing vocabularies)

14:55:59 <Souri> 0

Souri Das: 0

14:55:59 <SteveH> 0

Steve Harris: 0

14:56:00 <AxelPolleres> +1

Axel Polleres: +1

14:56:01 <SimonS> q-

Simon Schenk: q-

14:56:03 <AndyS> -1 (too early)

-1 (too early)

14:56:50 <AndyS> ACTION: kasei: summarise the vocabularies (DARQ, SADDLE, voiD)

ACTION: kasei: summarise the vocabularies (DARQ, SADDLE, voiD)

14:56:50 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - kasei

Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, couldn't find user - kasei

14:56:51 <Zakim> -ywang4

Zakim IRC Bot: -ywang4

14:56:51 <iv_an_ru> AndyS, as soon as the description is open, it could be too empty, but not too early :)

Ivan Mikhailov: AndyS, as soon as the description is open, it could be too empty, but not too early :)

14:57:05 <Zakim> -iv_an_ru

Zakim IRC Bot: -iv_an_ru

14:57:18 <AndyS> topic: commenst and warnings

8. commenst and warnings

14:57:28 <AndyS> Orri: metadata inline

Orri Erling: metadata inline

14:57:31 <AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Feature:ExecCommentsAndWarnings

Axel Polleres: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Feature:ExecCommentsAndWarnings

14:57:43 <AndyS> ... implementation dependent

... implementation dependent

14:57:49 <ericP> as written, SPARQL Query language has no errors which one would expect the user

Eric Prud'hommeaux: as written, SPARQL Query language has no errors which one would expect the user

14:57:54 <AndyS> ... e.g. runout of time for query

... e.g. runout of time for query

14:58:06 <ericP> i see most uses of this on the protocol side

Eric Prud'hommeaux: i see most uses of this on the protocol side

14:58:40 <LeeF> SPARQL does define malformed-query and query-request-refused faults in the protocol, fwiw

Lee Feigenbaum: SPARQL does define malformed-query and query-request-refused faults in the protocol, fwiw

14:58:41 <AndyS> ... can be in response header

... can be in response header

14:58:47 <AxelPolleres> connection to REDUCED?

Axel Polleres: connection to REDUCED?

14:59:07 <AndyS> ... but that is returned first before resutls start - server issue

... but that is returned first before resutls start - server issue

14:59:24 <AndyS> ... related issue is names for errors

... related issue is names for errors

14:59:27 <SteveH> seems /way/ too early to me

Steve Harris: seems /way/ too early to me

14:59:42 <LeeF> """

Lee Feigenbaum: """

14:59:43 <LeeF> QueryRequestRefused

Lee Feigenbaum: QueryRequestRefused

14:59:43 <LeeF> This WSDL fault message should be returned when a client submits a request that the service refuses to process. The QueryRequestRefused fault message neither indicates whether the server may or may not process a subsequent, identical request or requests, nor does it constrain a conformant SPARQL service from returning other HTTP status codes or HTTP headers as appropriate given the semantics of [HTTP].

Lee Feigenbaum: This WSDL fault message should be returned when a client submits a request that the service refuses to process. The QueryRequestRefused fault message neither indicates whether the server may or may not process a subsequent, identical request or requests, nor does it constrain a conformant SPARQL service from returning other HTTP status codes or HTTP headers as appropriate given the semantics of [HTTP].

14:59:43 <LeeF> When the QueryRequestRefused fault message is returned, query processing services must include explanatory, debugging, or other additional information intended for human consumption via the fault-details type defined in Excerpt 1.3.

Lee Feigenbaum: When the QueryRequestRefused fault message is returned, query processing services must include explanatory, debugging, or other additional information intended for human consumption via the fault-details type defined in Excerpt 1.3.

14:59:46 <LeeF> """

Lee Feigenbaum: """

15:00:06 <AndyS> ... maybe just a placeholder for now

... maybe just a placeholder for now

15:00:30 <ericP> i have a hunch that if we do add something to the query lang which begets an error, that we'd at least give it an identifier

Eric Prud'hommeaux: i have a hunch that if we do add something to the query lang which begets an error, that we'd at least give it an identifier

15:00:40 <AndyS> Axel: related to query response linking

Axel Polleres: related to query response linking

15:00:55 <AndyS> ... are there active champions?

... are there active champions?

15:01:04 <AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Feature:Query_response_linking

Axel Polleres: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Feature:Query_response_linking

15:01:26 <Zakim> -DaveNewman

Zakim IRC Bot: -DaveNewman

15:01:41 <SimonS> -1 for merging

Simon Schenk: -1 for merging

15:01:49 <SteveH> -1 for merge

Steve Harris: -1 for merge

15:01:55 <AndyS> -1 to merge

-1 to merge

15:02:03 <ywang4> ywang4 has left #sparql

Yimin Wang: ywang4 has left #sparql

15:02:29 <Zakim> -JacekK

Zakim IRC Bot: -JacekK

15:02:30 <AndyS> ADJOURNED

ADJOURNED



Formatted by CommonScribe


This revision (#1) generated 2009-03-24 17:43:56 UTC by 'lfeigenb', comments: 'cleaned up minutes, thanks to AndyS for scribing'