13:54:54 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #awwsw
13:54:54 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/12/22-awwsw-irc
13:55:00 <jar_> zakim, this will be awwsw
13:55:04 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #awwsw
13:55:11 <jar_> zakim, this will be awwsw
13:55:11 <Zakim> ok, jar_; I see TAG_(AWWSW)9:00AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes
13:58:42 <dbooth> dbooth has joined #awwsw
13:58:56 <Zakim> TAG_(AWWSW)9:00AM has now started
13:59:03 <Zakim> +DBooth
13:59:27 <dbooth> zakim, who is here?
13:59:27 <Zakim> On the phone I see DBooth
13:59:28 <Zakim> On IRC I see dbooth, Zakim, RRSAgent, jar_, mhausenblas, trackbot
13:59:43 <dbooth> Meeting: AWWSW
13:59:49 <jar_> gotta reboot my computer.  very weird, and weird timing
13:59:59 <jar_> oops seems to be ok now.
14:00:14 <jar_> also weird timing - it fixed itself just when i threatened it
14:01:07 <Zakim> +jar
14:01:37 <DanC> DanC has joined #awwsw
14:02:09 <DanC> DanC has changed the topic to: AWWSW 22 Dec http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-awwsw/2009Dec/0025.html
14:02:22 <Zakim> +DanC
14:02:30 <Zakim> +mhausenblas
14:02:52 <Zakim> +TimBL
14:02:56 <DanC> Topic: Convene
14:03:01 <DanC> Zakim, who's on the phone?
14:03:01 <Zakim> On the phone I see DBooth, jar, DanC, mhausenblas, TimBL
14:03:12 <DanC> present: DBooth, jar, DanC, mhausenblas, TimBL
14:03:32 <DanC> agenda + debrief from TAG meeting
14:03:44 <mhausenblas> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/dj9/story.html
14:03:51 <timbl> timbl has joined #awwsw
14:03:52 <DanC> agenda + speaks_for stuff http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/dj9/story.html
14:04:15 <timbl> Zakim, who is on the call?
14:04:15 <Zakim> On the phone I see DBooth, jar, DanC, mhausenblas, TimBL
14:04:25 <timbl> JAR in principle
14:05:17 <DanC> Zakim, next item
14:05:17 <Zakim> agendum 1. "debrief from TAG meeting" taken up [from DanC]
14:05:35 <jar_> chair: mhausenblas
14:05:37 <dbooth> ScribeNick: jar_
14:05:40 <DanC> jar's msg http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-awwsw/2009Dec/0017.html
14:05:40 <dbooth> Scribe: jar
14:06:00 <DanC> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2009/12/08-agenda
14:06:33 <mhausenblas> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2009/12/08-agenda#HttpRedire
14:06:42 <jar_> danc finding relevant part of tag meeting for us to review
14:07:02 <DanC> jar presented on the 9th http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2009/12/09-minutes.html#item01
14:08:26 <jar_> http://mumble.net/z
14:09:00 <DanC> slides as presented http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2009Dec/0024.html
14:09:37 <jar_> jar: The slides are in two parts, the awwsw part and the jar experimental part
14:09:43 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:09:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/12/22-awwsw-minutes.html mhausenblas
14:09:45 <jar_> danc: orresponds_to goes backwards
14:09:59 <jar_> it gets indexed backwards
14:10:04 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:10:11 <jar_> in ordinary speech, corresponds to is symmetric, which this isn't
14:10:19 <DanC> RESOURCE has information ENTITY
14:10:34 <DanC> (where in N3, 'has' is a noise word)
14:10:57 <jar_> david: i like the speaks for stuff
14:12:07 <jar_> jar: michael, do you see connection between conneg slide and your feb email to www-tag?
14:12:12 <jar_> mh: yes
14:12:57 <jar_> david: Looks like corresponds to is broken down into speaks for and is about?
14:13:18 <jar_> ... httprange-14 slide - ??
14:13:36 <jar_> danc: speaks for is its own world, different from the http world
14:13:45 <jar_> ... the slide asks: what if you connect the two?
14:14:22 <jar_> david: what if you treat sf as a subproperty of corr_to?
14:14:41 <jar_> danc: walk through examples - that will show answer
14:15:07 <jar_> mh: What precisely is missing - for final report?
14:15:17 <jar_> ... The deadline in dec was very good
14:15:50 <jar_> danc: An audience is its own deadline.  In Dec audience was the TAG.
14:16:03 <DanC> (pointer to list of outstanding issues?)
14:16:03 <jar_> mh: Need something more omplete by march
14:16:16 <mhausenblas> s/omplete/complete
14:16:45 <mhausenblas> pickup agenda item 2
14:16:47 <DanC> Zakim, next item
14:16:47 <Zakim> agendum 2. "speaks_for stuff http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/dj9/story.html" taken up [from DanC]
14:16:59 <DanC> Revision: 1.26
14:17:31 <jar_> slight fixes from 25 to 26.
14:18:54 <timbl> wonder which of 30 windows and tabs is running a talk on language acquisition
14:19:11 <jar_> danc: Different editorial style compared to jar
14:20:23 <jar_> david: It's going very smoothly, very nice
14:20:36 <jar_> mh: What's the motivation? You could have used FOL?
14:20:50 <jar_> danc: The later use is supposed to motivate it
14:21:00 <jar_> we do use FOL with quoting
14:21:13 <jar_> danc: but you need some way to have statements with term
14:21:41 <jar_> ... i have a reasoner that uses URIs as terms
14:22:00 <jar_> david: Why does WSJ have different relationship?
14:22:16 <jar_> danc: When bob reads the WSJ web page he doesn't read any further
14:22:33 <DanC> * perhaps elaborate  WSJ c:controls { Fed rate ?R }. using quoting
14:22:35 <jar_> david: Why different from [other case]?
14:23:24 <jar_> danc: ... it introduces says, speaks for a la ABLP axioms
14:23:45 <jar_> ... the 'quoting' operator
14:23:58 <jar_> david: Why do you need 'quoting' - not just 'says'?
14:24:02 <jar_> danc: sugar
14:24:41 <jar_> ... cwm has a lot of trouble with dequoting ('controls')
14:25:02 <jar_> danc: That onto is broken. borrows from cyc.  
14:25:09 <timbl> danc: The owl time ontology is horribly broken
14:25:17 <jar_> mh: Overlapping intervals and so on, seems good?
14:25:46 <DanC> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/dj9/httpspeech.html
14:25:47 <jar_> danc: Don't expect people to want to read n3 rules in this document
14:26:00 <mhausenblas> Michael: I was referring to http://www.w3.org/TR/owl-time/
14:26:27 <jar_> danc: Borrowed http in rdf -- need to fix it if it turns out to be broken
14:26:35 <jar_> ... (seems related to powder?) 
14:26:55 <jar_> danc: Status code numbers - ontologically unfortunate
14:27:11 <timbl> ("status codes are alreday numbers")
14:27:26 <jar_> danc: Referring to 'get' method for usage of 'information ... with'
14:28:35 <jar_> danc: Connection - found a bit of ABLP in HTTP spec even without the controversial assumption
14:28:52 <jar_> after 2nd note in httpspeech
14:29:14 <timbl> Maybe  s/corresponds to/expresses/ ?
14:29:32 <jar_> about what the *connection* says.
14:29:51 <jar_> danc: jar wanted to account for buggy proxy servers
14:30:47 <mhausenblas> I'm looking http://rdfs.org/ns/void-guide#sec_2_1_Classic_vs_3rd_party
14:31:04 <jar_> mh: looking at a special case of linked data where there is a third party linking data sets
14:31:19 <jar_> ... hugh glasser from southampton... does this still hold?
14:31:37 <jar_> danc: You need an independent policy that determines whether the 3rd party controls the information
14:32:03 <jar_> danc: 3r party = non authoritative.  Trusted means you start believing them
14:32:27 <jar_> david: Only origin servers are authoritative ... trying to understand
14:32:58 <jar_> david: The statement in question is res information E, yes?
14:33:01 <jar_> danc: yes
14:33:51 <DanC> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/dj9/httpsocial.html
14:34:13 <jar_> jar: Be very careful about how and when the corresponds / speaksfor axiom is used
14:34:26 <jar_> david: Re misconfigured server issue
14:34:57 <jar_> ... couple of ways to think of the resource.  We could say there's no such thing as a misconfigured server, only bogus resources
14:35:24 <jar_> danc: So when does the resource speak for the domain owner? Let's see....
14:35:47 <jar_> david: Sort of like a misconfigured telephone answering system
14:36:28 <jar_> danc: Inadequate level of mistrust - people vs. computers - we trust computers too much
14:36:59 <jar_> david: Melissa on the phone is different from resource on internet, but similar
14:37:56 <jar_> danc: How do we figure out that conneg of is/is about is a lose?
14:38:35 <jar_> ... limits of conneg?  picture and description of picture?
14:38:40 <mhausenblas> DanC, you actually answered to my question (indirectly ;) see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2009Nov/0083.html
14:42:40 <jar_> 'indirection needs redirection'  - danc reviewing
14:43:08 <DanC> DanC has joined #awwsw
14:43:19 <Zakim> +DanC.a
14:43:37 <mhausenblas> Zakim, who's here?
14:43:37 <Zakim> On the phone I see DBooth, jar, DanC, mhausenblas, TimBL, DanC.a (muted)
14:43:39 <Zakim> On IRC I see DanC, timbl, dbooth, Zakim, RRSAgent, jar_, mhausenblas, trackbot
14:43:39 <jar_> david: stuck on n3 - replaced the manifesto file with some data
14:43:51 <Zakim> -DanC.a
14:44:01 <Zakim> +DanC.a
14:44:02 <jar_> "Hi, please leave a message for Dan Connolly"
14:44:30 <jar_> "The organization replaced the manifesto file on the server with some metadata about the manifesto,"
14:44:42 <jar_> david: comes from which server?
14:44:55 <jar_> danc: This is just a statement about the world
14:45:09 <mhausenblas> q+ to ask on http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/dj9/badmeta-pf.html
14:45:39 <mhausenblas> ack me
14:45:39 <Zakim> mhausenblas, you wanted to ask on http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/dj9/badmeta-pf.html
14:46:10 <jar_> 'contraction' axiom in logic
14:46:35 <DanC> (I can live with light scribing)
14:46:42 <mhausenblas> scribenick: mhausenblas 
14:47:08 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:47:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/12/22-awwsw-minutes.html mhausenblas
14:49:18 <Zakim> -jar
14:51:02 <DanC> * perhaps picture in inches, description in centimeters
14:51:07 <mhausenblas> DanC: maybe an example with a picture (in vs cm)
14:51:35 <mhausenblas> Zakim, who's here?
14:51:35 <Zakim> On the phone I see DBooth, DanC, mhausenblas, TimBL, DanC.a
14:51:36 <Zakim> On IRC I see DanC, timbl, dbooth, Zakim, RRSAgent, mhausenblas, trackbot
14:52:11 <mhausenblas> dbooth: depends on the coding process (lossy/gainy)
14:52:19 <mhausenblas> ... for example JPEG
14:54:35 <mhausenblas> DanC: Mashup Speech Acts (with XSRF example)
14:56:41 <DanC> typo: "credentials to for all requests that the user is authorized to make:"
14:57:54 <DanC> perhaps change conclusion to: bobAccount debit "1000000". malloryAccount credit "1000000"
14:59:27 <DanC> * clarify: "he has a current cookie"
15:01:46 <DanC> * fix "We know that Q1 speaks for mallory, not bob, "
15:03:01 <DanC> * perhaps "Lets look at the bank's (faulty) reasoning."
15:03:38 <dbooth> DBooth: Need to say "Mallory causes Bob's browser to issue this request ..."
15:03:43 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:03:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/12/22-awwsw-minutes.html mhausenblas
15:05:08 <mhausenblas> DanC makes dbooth  reading 'Mashups and the Same Origin Policy' out loud
15:05:46 <DanC> * perhaps another layer between hs:messageEntity and information for parsing
15:12:11 <mhausenblas> Michael: what's the plan with this document?
15:12:13 <dbooth> s/reading/read/
15:12:32 <mhausenblas> DanC: got some todos in there
15:12:38 <mhausenblas> ... review is useful
15:13:09 <dbooth> Here is ABLP: http://www.hpl.hp.com/techreports/Compaq-DEC/SRC-RR-70.html
15:15:01 <dbooth> DBooth: This is nice, Dan!  The more you can do on this,  the better.
15:15:22 <Zakim> -mhausenblas
15:15:24 <Zakim> -DBooth
15:15:24 <Zakim> -DanC.a
15:15:34 <mhausenblas> Zakim, list attendees
15:15:34 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been DBooth, jar, DanC, mhausenblas, TimBL, DanC.a
15:15:43 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:15:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/12/22-awwsw-minutes.html mhausenblas
15:15:54 <dbooth> ADJOURNED
15:15:59 <dbooth> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:15:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/12/22-awwsw-minutes.html dbooth
15:16:14 <mhausenblas> thanks a lot DanC - KUTGW! ;)
15:16:23 <DanC> SRC-RR-70 has the same content, but for copy/paste purposes, the other citation works better http://homepages.inf.ed.ac.uk/gdp/publications/Calculus_for_Access_Control.pdf <- http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/dj9/story.html#toplas93
15:16:24 <mhausenblas> cya all in 2010
15:16:30 <dbooth> :)
15:16:32 <mhausenblas> ta
15:16:58 <mhausenblas> Zakim, bye
15:16:58 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were DBooth, jar, DanC, mhausenblas, TimBL, DanC.a
15:16:58 <Zakim> Zakim has left #awwsw
15:17:12 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, bye
15:17:12 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
15:24:38 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #awwsw
15:24:38 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/12/22-awwsw-irc
15:24:43 <DanC> regrets+ Alan
15:24:53 <DanC> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:24:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/12/22-awwsw-minutes.html DanC
15:25:36 <DanC> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2009/12/22-test-minutes.html
15:26:05 <DanC> -> http://esw.w3.org/topic/AwwswHome AwwswHome topic
15:26:11 <DanC> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:26:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/12/22-awwsw-minutes.html DanC
15:26:18 <mhausenblas> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-awwsw/2009Dec/0025.html
15:26:29 <DanC> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:26:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/12/22-awwsw-minutes.html DanC
15:26:31 <timbl> timbl has joined #awwsw
15:26:37 <dbooth> s/"Hi, please leave a message for Dan Connolly"//
15:26:47 <DanC> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:26:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/12/22-awwsw-minutes.html DanC
15:27:30 <DanC> s/Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2009/12/22-test-minutes.html//
15:27:38 <DanC> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:27:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/12/22-awwsw-minutes.html DanC
15:28:26 <DanC> s|Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2009/12/22-test-minutes.html||
15:28:36 <DanC> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:28:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/12/22-awwsw-minutes.html DanC
15:30:38 <DanC> s|Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2009/12/22-test-minutes.html||g
15:30:46 <DanC> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:30:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/12/22-awwsw-minutes.html DanC
15:31:50 <DanC> RRSAgent, make minutes final
15:31:50 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes final', DanC.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
15:35:22 <DanC> RRSAgent, make minutes
15:35:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/12/22-awwsw-minutes.html DanC
15:36:26 <DanC> ScribeOptions: -final
15:36:34 <DanC> RRSAgent, make minutes
15:36:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/12/22-awwsw-minutes.html DanC
15:37:20 <DanC> ScribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics
15:37:25 <DanC> RRSAgent, make minutes
15:37:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/12/22-awwsw-minutes.html DanC
16:33:50 <timbl> timbl has joined #awwsw