Shawn: Full agenda today
... I want to thank everyone for the quick reply. We wanted to
get a first idea on that navigation. Really helpful to get that
feedback. We decided to wait and do in January. Couple of
reasons to think through what to be, and publish how to contact
organizations. Then publish in December and put the new
navigation in January. Thank you very much for the quick email.
I would like to chat some more today. We might come up with
some great ideas.
... the minutes show how brainstorming works. As a good we do
good at that. Any questions?
Shawn: We took another edit task at that. Some were significant, and we wanted people to read through or skim and so let's talk about that first. Jennifer, any you felt needed discussion?
Jennifer: there was one. 6.8 the one where we talk about legal stuff. I wonder if there was a page about legislative references and do we want to include?
Andrew: we link to the second
paragraph in the intro.
... worth thinking about in the context as a link.
Shawn: the section is the follow up as needed. The last bit of that, and the last bullet considering legal requirements in anti-discriminations and Jennifer wants us to say in your country. Any objections? (none) Next Shadi had some different points. Shadi? Start on those?
Shadi: One thing to start off, is at the top of the page, in the overview section. the last paragraph contacting organizations that do a good job. There was some discussion, to go upfront. Maybe someone coming with an uncomfortable with a tax form and they might feel uncomfortable. In the section about considering approach, do we want to consider moving down?
Shawn: thoughts on that?
... good to leave up at the top, or lower?
Jennifer: the one thing I thought. Helpful to tamp back anger though we rage not likely to find page. And there are some who do right and take a deep breath here. I don't feel strongly here.
Andrew: a good point, but the section below would feel very good there.
Doyle: context is good.
Shawn: I think it would get lost down there. Too long up here though. Jennifer brings up what does it do to the tone of the document. The whole bulk of the document about inaccessible web sites. William and maybe a little Alan were as if it was not about complaining. One consideration having up there may side track the whole document.
Shadi: sounds to me it should not move?
Shawn: I was trying to be open minded.
Jack: I don't feel strongly.
Yeliz: I don't feel
strongly.
... It feels like not the right place for it. I don't know
why.
... leaving it up here I mean. I don't have an explanation as
the right place.
Alan: I thought a bit of out of place as well. Read further on and it's only about complaining.
Shawn: Two of three editors feel it should move down. Any objections down to consider your approach.
Jennifer: philosophically I'd like to see there, but for the good of the document it should move. To compromise, a blog could mention that?
Shawn: my first pass at a draft of the blog, and the point would be addressed in detail. I got feedback that is not the first approach is for a blog. The tone is not quite right.
Jennifer: other methods to get around to this. You aren't the only ones to blog.
Shawn: Twittering also. Liam wants to use the word complain in something about Inaccessible web sites.
Shadi: this is how the document should be used. But that's not the focus of the document. Your comments on the blog. The feedback was not geared on that point. Might be differetn format for that than a blog.
Shawn: I will check where to put that information. Does this go in the introduction. I am considering putting down in consider our approach.
Alan: in the main part of the document it should go in the overview also.
Shadi: consider your approach section maybe skipped, and I like that section a lot and be moved up to get more attention.
Shawn: maybe go after the introduction. What if after the introduction consider our approach, the beginning of the point.
<yeliz> +1
Jennifer: what would be after your approach. You want to consider your approach even before you start. Pretty logical.
<yeliz> Good idea
<achuter> +1
Shawn: Shadi considering editing that section ssome more. Move consider after the introduction, and include ...
Andrew: good, consider moving away from the last thing, and have people think about.
Shawn: move the section consider
your approach, to under the introduction and include in there
what is in there what is the last sentence of the
overview.
... one vote for.
<sylvie> Sylvie +1
Shawn: lets' look at that section consider your approach. We want to expand a little bit. Currently Andrew would you read what's there currently.
Andrew: (reads Consider your Approach).
Shawn: The premise to expand this
a little and have a smoother flow. Any comments on the first
paragraph?
... What do we want to say in the second paragraph. Comfortable
with the sentence.
Doyle: no
Jennifer: I think it is true. I am comfortable.
Shawn: two articles about web
accessibility, and one allowed comments, and some felt blind
people shouldn't use computers.
... they honestly didn't know blind people use computers.
Jennifer: I don't have a problem with that. But the thought they shouldn't????
Shawn: Still a lot of that out there even in the development community.
Jack: I think I agree with it. The wording made a little cleaner and better. A lot of organizations do this because they don't know it makes a lot of sense to me.
Shadi: The general statement, in some parts of the world most developers know about accessibility, but the first appraoch is about they don't know at all.
Shawn: a good point. Second sentence is hard to follow.
Jennifer: one sentence could be broken into two.
Shawn: Other things we had talked about. One thing an organization doesn't know about the specific accessibility barrier. Say anything here, about tone, or other stuff.
Shadi: I was thinking specifically about the tone, but I don't have suggestions. I know you tried to use yell at the computer not the person. General notion going a little further about the tone. Still encourage people to make their point and firmly but respectfully.
Shawn: any objections to adding a little more about the point of being respectful? Any other input for editors?
Shadi: we decided to move down consider organizations so that section grows a bit by one paragraph. In the old version if you don't feel comfortable doing that, contact an organization to do for you.
Andrew: that was well worded. The approach you go direct or by organization.
Shawn: I support that as well. Please read.
Shadi: I was looking at the changelog. In your edits Shawn you proposed to move. If you aren't comfortable contacting organizations directly, consider contacting organizations...Shawn proposed to put in the introduction. Put into consider your approach?
Shawn: good idea.
Andrew: I'll take actions.
Shawn: lets' bring up the next point. Shadi describe number four.
<Andrew> ACTION:Contacting - move Consider Your Approach section to follow the Introduction + move last sentence from Overview to this + add in about 'going via a third party' [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/12/18-eo-minutes.html#action01]
<Andrew> ACTION: contacting - in Consider your approach, change not knowing about accessibility, to not knowing about the specific barrier [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/12/18-eo-minutes.html#action02]
<Andrew> ACTION: Contacting - consider in second para of Consider Your Approach consider saying more about tone, maybe about being firm but respectful [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/12/18-eo-minutes.html#action03]
Sylvie: I have a question. Regarding the second paragraph of consider your approach. What does "the first contact" mean? The letter your write, or the person you are contacting?
Shawn: we'll make that clear in the edit. Contact the first person, or our email is the first contact. Clarify if we mean the first person your contact, or the tone of our first contact assume X. Thanks. We want to say both. I see where that needs clarifying.
<Andrew> ACTION: Contacting - clarify is we mean the first person you contact or in the tone of your first contact (eg email) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/12/18-eo-minutes.html#action04]
Shadi: In the section what
computer software are you using. Four bullets about things to
include. Section describe the problem, and the sub section what
computer and hardware are you using. Four bullets to include
about software, include settings you have customized, and you
use. As soon as the developer sees someone is using a screen
enlargement tool. I think info only be provided if
relevant.
... I don't like have a blanket statement to provide those
details always. Problem with tabbing doesn't matter to have the
font size set larger.
Shawn: any objection to make the separate, to add when it is a problem reporting to add there.
Shadi: when related or something of other.
Shawn: Any objection? (none) Shadi? Any other?
<Andrew> ACTION: Contacting - in What Computer, qualify the Settings and AT bullets with something like "if related to your problem..." [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/12/18-eo-minutes.html#action05]
Shadi: same section at the bottom of the section, don't tell people personal information like information, and the developer is seen as a trustworthy entity, do not give away personal information.
Jennifer: I agree, send secret
questions, email is not secure.
... Use email especially. To say with being convoluted.
Shawn: at the end like don't use email, or phone. Do not give anyone personal information. Such as passwords through email or otherwise.
<Andrew> ACTION: Contacting: in Your Computer section, change "Do not tell ..." to include Email specifically; "Do not give anyone personal info such as passwords through email or otherwise" or similar [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/12/18-eo-minutes.html#action06]
Shawn: any more discussion on that?
Shadi: excellent thank you. That was it. All others were editorial.
Shawn: any other points? New section is under request reply. We added a quick one. to consider the approach there, to come up with some conclusion. What about record for later version or this one easy. Some kind of conclusion or wrap up before sample emails. Low priority thing. Anything else.
Jennifer: real quickly. Looked like you addressed Kelly's comments?
Andrew: we addressed Kelly's comments.
<Andrew> ACTION: Contacting - consider a conclusion or wrap-up before the sample emails (maybe for next version) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/12/18-eo-minutes.html#action07]
Shadi: one brainstorm. To address Liam's comment. In the introduction we describe the document, and why you should contact information. Could we move down. Both paragraphs. Something to consider in the next draft.
Shawn: the reason it was there to encourage people who might not do it. Thoughts.
Andrew: that's right.
Shawn: was say it's the thing to do, third says it might be the web site but could be your problem. Thoughts on moving that? Any other ideas on that please share them. Not to totally move, first paragrph is really big and split out and the idea is really good, so consider doing that?
<Andrew> ACTION: Contacting - consider moving some of the intro to the 'conclusion' [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/12/18-eo-minutes.html#action08]
<shadi> [Contact Organizations about Inaccessible Websites]
Shawn: reconsider the title? Some of the previous titles, Responding to Organizations with Inaccessible web sites. Then my current discomfort with the current title is the scope is more than how to contact.
Jennifer: kind of about advocacy.
Shawn: more about do something. A lot of guidance. Listen when you find an inaccessible web site, do something.
Doyle: take action contact an inaccessible web site.
Shawn: What to do when you come across an inaccessible web site. Speak up and tell the site they are inaccessible web site. Please do this.
Doyle: Telling the web site they are inaccessible.
Andrew: tell organizations about inaccessible web sites.
<Andrew> tell orgs about accessibility problems
Jennifer: I would like to think a word better than advocate I'd like to have a title to have.
Shawn: broader than that.
<Andrew> web accessibility - help make it happen
<shadi> [influence, approach, reach out]
Shawn: Shadi suggests Contact Organizations About Inaccessible Web Sites. That is an action. Still contact but is action.
Shadi: I looked for synonyms online. Approach, and influence, and reach out.
<shadi> [Contact Organizations with Inaccessible Websites]
Jennifer: I like reachout, but search engine and web, it doesn't work. Real key words.
Shawn: what didn't work?
<shawn> Responding to Organizations with Inaccessible Websites , Reacting...
Jennifer: it sounds like the organization reached to me, and I should respond.
Jack: sounds more receptive and passive.
Shawn: reacting to inaccessible web sites.
<yeliz> Experiencing Accessibility Barriers? Tell them about it
<shawn> React to Inaccessible Websites
Doyle: Telling your reaction to inaccessible web sites.
Jennifer: what to do when a web site is inaccessible?
Shawn: that doesn't catch what a user does.
<yeliz> React when a Website is inaccessible
Jennifer: how to take action. but doesn't have the user.
Shadi: I like React to, which is an action word.
Jennifer: taking an action when it is not accessible.
<shawn> Act against inaccessible websites
<shadi> [Rage Against Inaccessibility (the machine]
<yeliz> :)
Doyle: overreact to inaccessible web sites
Jennifer: when I hear react I think about chemistry.
Andrew: to me it has negative connotations. Not considering.
<shadi> [Act on Innaccessible Websites]
Jack: a kind of passive approach is reacting. Instead of being in control.
<Andrew> s/considering - put on the spots./
<Andrew> [Act on Accessibility Barriers]
<shawn> [Contact Organizations with Inaccessible Websites]
Doyle: Use your anger to make sites accessible.
<shadi> [Better Websites: Tips for Contacting Organizations with Innaccessible Websites - (c) Yeliz]
<shawn> title brain storms: http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/changelogs/cl-responding.html#changelog
<yeliz> Inform Organisations about the Inaccessibility of their Website
Andrew: we have used (reads the list) ...
How to change inaccessible web sites yourself.
Jennifer: improving
accessibility, what to do when you find inaccessible web
sites.
... what should you do when a web site is inaccessible.
Shawn: what to do about inaccessible web sites.
<shawn> What to do about Inaccessible Websites
<shawn> (too broad)
Doyle: doesn't catch speaking up.
<Andrew> [Better Websites: Contact Organizations about Web Accessibility Barriers]
<shawn> Contact Organizations with Inaccessible Websites
Shawn: anything clicking. The closest to what we have that changes the tone, is contact organizations with inaccessible web sites.
<shawn> Contact Organizations about Inaccessible Websites
Jennifer: if we publish as a draft I would like contact better than what we have now.
Shadi: one issue is not a good idea in a draft title.
<yeliz> Experiencing Accessibility Barriers? Contact Organizations with Inaccessible Websites
Liam: I'm happy with the title as is, and think Shadi' point is right.
Shadi: changing the title after publication is usually not a good idea.
<shawn> Contact Organizations about Inaccessible Websites
Jennifer: for many reasons which changes the URI and other rigamarole.
Jack: right now I guess that none of the things we are suggesting really stand out for me. The existing title is more accurate. Talking about what someone is doing and what they do, and advocating to an organization with an inaccessible site. As good as it gets now.
Shawn: what about more imperative?
Jack: I'm mixed on that one.
Yeliz: I agree with Jack. the
current title is quite good I think, and say contact, would be
better than using the word helpful.
... like advise.
... I like advise and tips.
Jennifer: translating concerns about 'reporting'.
Andrew: yes that does have trouble translating.
<yeliz> What about Shadi's suggestion: Tips for Contacting Organizations with Innaccessible Websites
<shawn> How to Contact Organizations about Inaccessible Websites
Jennifer: tips for contacting organizations, I'd rather start with contact.
<shawn> Contact Organizations about Inaccessible Websites
<yeliz> Option 2 +
<yeliz> Option 2, +1
Shawn: two options, as is currently option one, and option two is contacting organizations about inaccessible web sites.
Andrew: I like number two.
<shawn> Contact Organizations with Inaccessible Websites
Yeliz: somebody had a problem with not saying 'their'
Andrew: you might not contact the organization but all this applies to a third party.
Liam: losing the how to after the title. Makes the title more grammatical, but good to have in the first paragraph. Without fail the most popular format for how to do.
<shawn> Contact Organizations about Inaccessible Websites
<shawn> Contact Organizations with Inaccessible Websites
Shawn: Andrew keep that consider keeping How to, and put early in the document if we don't keep in the title. wimpier and better to be specific.
<Andrew> ACTION: Contacting - keep "how to" early in the doc (if it goes from title) to make it clear that we have some 'how to' instructions [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/12/18-eo-minutes.html#action09]
Doyle: good to be direct and clear.
Jennifer: I vote for about.
Shawn: get any great ideas over the weekend please send to the list. Thanks for working through this. We count on this getting a wide audience. Do the best we can on the title. Given that. Check where you are. Publish this week. We have one significant edit from today. To move up the section on consider your approach. Others were minor. If we were to get that done. One idea is to publish next week. And then re-announce in January. Or wait to January
<yeliz> +1 next week
Shawn: the three editors are comfortable with as publishing as a draft. Are you ok with next week?
Jack: next week.
<LiamMcGee> I vote publish at editors discretion.
Doyle: wait till January. Not to have to rush. Leave up to the editors.
Andrew: we will publish as a draft flag on it. If you looked at the beginning on that in January still good to respond.
Shawn: I'll note for January agenda since to change it at any point.
Jennifer: good for next week, but good to re-emphasize later.
Yeliz: if the editors are happy good for after Xmas.
Shawn: definitely put on the list
as soon as we have updates ready. Andrew, Shadi, anything
else?
... gone, the next topic.
<Andrew> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/changelogs/cl-training.html
Andrew: this is a set of documents before I was with EO, very useful then, could be made a lot more user friendly. WAI Age project we looked at how to use, from a short presentation, to a full presentation, and what would help them. How to bring this suite of documents in 2010.
Shawn: what do you want from us today?
Andrew: we document a goal a
purpose, and audience. Documented what's there. Have a look at
the section called purpose. Read out. (reads). Being in mind
not every audience is a technical development audience. You may
talk to accountants, much broader audience than technical
people. Guidance on doing presentation, providing resources for
training,
... ensuring all the web users are included, help people
understand sharing their knowledge & experience.
Shadi: to stress the fact, the
suite focuses strongly on course and training curriculae. Needs
broadening out to include short presentations. Different levels
of depth. The title is a little miss leading. Goal to help
prepare for presentations, to courses. The design should be a
how to document. Gives steps for how to prepare. What to doing
during and what to do after. Different topics to be combined
together in different ways to hold different kinds
... skip over the purpose. Look at the audience. Andrew and I
discussed in detail. Interesting could be anyone as presenter
or audience. Someone who just learned about and update their
organization. To experts. One set of audience. We called from
anyone to anyone. A second set is looking at this for self
study. To learn more accessibility. The goals and audience.
Shawn: what reactions do have about those audiences. Currently geared toward instructures, but this expands this scope to be for self study.
Shadi: maybe a secondary audience. What I understood from previous discussions that was a goal to be for self study.
Doyle: a really big change.
Shadi: not intended as a change, but put as a secondary audience.
Shawn: there is nothing there for self study at all.
Andrew: in terms of some of the scenarios. Someone interested in learning themselves we have some materials there.
Shawn: where?
Andrew: took one sample curriculum work shop for web designers. And the curricula for web learning. The objectives go through to a different page.
Shawn: self learners will find that.
Andrew: from Shadi, if we help self learners is a good thing.
Shawn: what if we do like we did with usability audience. Set aside for now and meet the main audience, and look back to find some easy things to do for this audience.
Andrew: good
Shawn: put in the changelog to spell out.
Shadi: the biggest issue for this resource is that it doesn't explain itself well. Starts out with training. You are right about adding a note at the bottom of the overview page.
<Andrew> ACTION: training - self-learners, put aside for now, and see if we can help them more specifically when are 3/4 done (maybe like the note for usability specialists in Involving Users) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/12/18-eo-minutes.html#action10]
Shawn: other reactions or thoughts. What about making this resource about this range, from ten minute presentation, to a week long course.
Andrew: in the changelog to stop at one day course. To not include anything longer than one day. Some consideration three day and five day events. At that time it was decided not to go there with that workshop.
Shawn: what are you thinking? Not specific enough for update.
Andrew: if we look at what we
were thinking about as an outline. Start out with what's there
and how to use. And who would use, techies to presenters. What
to do during training. And have a collection of topics to mix
and match, and scenarios. To meet various audiences. Similar to
what is there at the moment.
... if people could scroll down through, collection of training
topics. Ask today, list of topics there. In the heading called
Approach. One is a numbered bullet to mix and match. I'll read
out. What are the topics we should think about. Probably should
still be there. (reads) Have a three minute brainstorming of
topics we should cover.
Jennifer: The two ideas that come to me. ARIA, different from designing the typical HTML thing. And mobile.
Shawn: how PWD use the web.
Liam: writing accessible content for the web.
<LiamMcGee> Accessibility and SEO
Jack: going back, given the broad audience, basic understanding of what the capabilities are. Not just how people use the web. things like jaws and so forth, and technical capabilities.
<LiamMcGee> Usability Testing with People With Disabilities
<LiamMcGee> Accessibility and Aesthetics
Jennifer: a place where you would link to YouTube videos using different kinds of technologies.
<shawn> writing accessibility cntent for the web
<shawn> wai-aria
<shawn> how pwd use the web
Shadi: right now proposed as curricula, are very broad. User testing under evaluating. Keep broader topics, WAI ARIA would fall under accessible web sites.
Liam: tends to be how use case it.
Shadi: talking about capabilities I wonder about an implementation plan. What are the skills of the developers and additional expertise you want to bring in.
Jennifer: jack was talking about end user capabilities. I see developers as well.
Shawn: in the real world is a
consultants role. Scope? Looking through external resources.
Too broad to long to do, and maybe less useful?
... Andrew good specific question. Others?
Liam: accessibility and aesthetics.
Jennifer: doesn't mean ugly accessibility.
<Andrew> ... covering issues graphic designers worry about
<shawn> ACTION: training - add as possible "Collection of training topics/modules that can be mixed and matched" the items listed above and below in the minutes [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/12/18-eo-minutes.html#action11]
Shadi: getting into messages.
From the task force meeting. In the open issues, there are
messages he had captured.
... in the sections in open issues. Underlying messages. How a
training or presentation you can have short point, but an
aesthetic design is a point.
... It seems there is a set of messages that could through for
presentations. And another collection of modules you build into
a training.
Liam: two parts, taking the graphic designer as an example, you want them to understand and care. This is what it is like reading. Could spend a day on it.
<Andrew> ... illustrate the issue before talking about solutions
Shadi: interesting. One thing we could end up doing, in number three in the approach.
list the messages, then the key resources
<Andrew> eg. http://www.w3.org/WAI/training/ra.html#why - Why Web accessibility is important
Liam: the question is where to
stop - becaue you coudl go so deep
... ... the woudl eba differnt slat to that to one audience
than another
... really big heap of work
shawn: yup
Liam: general idea of mix and match is sensible
Shawn: things under review now are listed at top of EOWG home page http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/#current