IRC log of ua on 2009-12-17

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:38:00 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #ua
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/12/17-ua-irc
17:38:02 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
17:38:02 [Zakim]
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17:38:04 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
17:38:05 [trackbot]
Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
17:38:05 [trackbot]
Date: 17 December 2009
17:38:08 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 22 minutes
17:46:06 [AllanJ]
chair: Jim_Allan
17:55:16 [jeanne]
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17:57:16 [AllanJ]
Agenda+ review survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20091208/
17:58:13 [AllanJ]
agenda+ no meeting Dec 24 or Dec 31. Next meeting Jan. 7
18:00:49 [jeanne]
zakim, code?
18:00:49 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), jeanne
18:01:04 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
18:01:08 [Zakim]
+ +0127320aaaa
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+Jeanne
18:01:11 [iheni]
iheni has joined #ua
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+AllanJ
18:05:08 [Zakim]
+Greg
18:05:36 [Greg]
Greg has joined #ua
18:05:46 [jeanne]
regrets+ Jan, Simon
18:06:07 [Zakim]
+Kim
18:07:14 [jeanne]
zakim, who is here?
18:07:14 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Jeanne, +0127320aaaa, AllanJ, Greg, Kim
18:07:15 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Greg, iheni, jeanne, Zakim, RRSAgent, AllanJ, trackbot
18:07:30 [KimPatch]
KimPatch has joined #ua
18:07:48 [AllanJ]
zakim, aaaa is really iheni
18:07:48 [Zakim]
+iheni; got it
18:08:03 [jeanne]
zakim, 0127320aaaa is really iheni
18:08:03 [Zakim]
sorry, jeanne, I do not recognize a party named '0127320aaaa'
18:08:33 [jeanne]
zakim, who is here?
18:08:33 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Jeanne, iheni, AllanJ, Greg, Kim
18:08:34 [Zakim]
On IRC I see KimPatch, Greg, iheni, jeanne, Zakim, RRSAgent, AllanJ, trackbot
18:08:37 [AllanJ]
zakim, agenda?
18:08:37 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda:
18:08:39 [Zakim]
1. review survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20091208/ [from AllanJ]
18:08:41 [Zakim]
2. no meeting Dec 24 or Dec 31. Next meeting Jan. 7 [from AllanJ]
18:10:37 [iheni]
Patrick H Lauke
18:11:10 [Greg]
Henny says that Patrick H. Lauke has agreed to take her place on our working group while she's on maternity leave.
18:11:31 [AllanJ]
zakim, take up agenda 1
18:11:31 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "review survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20091208/" taken up [from AllanJ]
18:12:40 [Zakim]
-iheni
18:12:59 [Greg]
Re 4.9.6, Kim accepts the proposal.
18:13:26 [iheni]
I accept too
18:13:39 [Zakim]
+iheni
18:14:21 [AllanJ]
http://www.w3.org/2009/12/10-ua-minutes.html
18:16:23 [Greg]
Jim notes we added a bunch of action items related to this last week.
18:16:58 [Greg]
But proposed wording changes were minor.
18:18:57 [AllanJ]
4.9.6 Playback Rate Adjustment for Prerecorded Content.. The user can adjust the playback rate of prerecorded audio and/or video content, such that all of the following are true (Level A):
18:19:00 [AllanJ]
- The user can adjust the playback rate of the audio and/or video tracks to between 50% and 250% of real time. @@fix and/or
18:19:01 [AllanJ]
- Speech whose playback rate has been adjusted by the user maintains pitch in order to limit degradation of the speech quality.
18:19:03 [AllanJ]
- Audio and video tracks remain synchronized across this required range of playback rates.
18:19:04 [AllanJ]
- The user agent provides a function that resets the playback rate to normal (100%).
18:20:44 [jeanne]
action: jeanne to update the document with the new language for 4.9.6. See minutes of 17 December for correct text.
18:20:44 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-259 - Update the document with the new language for 4.9.6. See minutes of 17 December for correct text. [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2009-12-24].
18:21:23 [Greg]
Discussing 4.4.1 etc.
18:23:01 [AllanJ]
4.4.b The user has the option to set flash rates for user agent defined flash. (Level AAA)
18:23:28 [AllanJ]
4.4.c "Override flash rates: The user has the option to limit the flash rate for any recognized flashing content to less than 3 flashes in any one second. (AAA)
18:24:56 [Greg]
The distinction between the proposed 4.4.b and 4.4.c is the former seems to (or I interpreted it as being) about where the content requests flashing but leaves the flash rate up to the user agent, whereas 4.4.c is about cases where the content requests flashing AND specifies a flash rate in a way that the user agent can recognize, renders, and can choose to override the requested flash rate.
18:26:14 [AllanJ]
GL: nothing in HTML or CSS where author can set a rate.
18:27:38 [Greg]
However, there may be equivalents in other Web technologies where the content can specify a rate.
18:30:13 [Greg]
We need the "recognized" limitation because we can't expect the UA to stop scripts from flashing at an arbitrary rate, since the UA may not be aware of exactly what the script is doing.
18:32:58 [Greg]
As for priority, as we discussed last week, this is one of the few success criteria where failure actually potentially harms the user rather than just making it difficult to carry out some tasks.
18:34:17 [Greg]
Thus I recommend Level A for 4.4.b/c. I don't know of any UA that would fail, and certainly if it fails on 4.4.b it would be a very easy fix. It's possible nothing CAN fail on 4.4.c because no Web technologies apply at this time; it would be interesting to gather feedback on whether there are such.
18:34:41 [AllanJ]
the user has to option to override any recognized flash rate (author or user agent defined.
18:35:53 [mhakkinen]
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18:35:57 [AllanJ]
proposed: Override flash rates: The user has the option to limit the flash rate for any recognized flashing content to less than 3 flashes in any one second. (AAA)
18:36:24 [Greg]
Except propose changing to Level A, not AAA.
18:36:42 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
18:37:10 [Greg]
(Recognize is already defined in the glossary.)
18:38:45 [AllanJ]
zakim, IPcaller is really mhakkinen
18:38:45 [Zakim]
+mhakkinen; got it
18:39:34 [jeanne]
+1
18:39:41 [KimPatch]
=1
18:39:44 [Greg]
+iheni
18:40:15 [AllanJ]
looking at 4.4.a 4.4.a
18:40:17 [AllanJ]
The user agent defined flash rates are less than 3 times in any one second, for all items for which the user agent has sole control of the rate.<Level
18:40:19 [AllanJ]
A)
18:43:05 [AllanJ]
+1 to combined b/c
18:43:35 [AllanJ]
GL: seems that A is redundant to B/C, A is already covered.
18:46:23 [AllanJ]
GL: A seems overboard, because slow flash or low contrast.
18:47:42 [AllanJ]
UA has no knowledge of size of the element flashing, only its flash rate.
18:48:15 [AllanJ]
GL: thinking of marching ant border, then may not be dangerous.
18:48:36 [AllanJ]
... or in flash have a 1 px flashing dot.
18:49:16 [AllanJ]
... not sure A is too bad, seems beyond health guidelines. at a loss for wordage
18:50:16 [AllanJ]
proposed: Override flash rates: The user has the option to limit the flash rate for any recognized flashing content to less than 3 flashes in any one second. (A)
18:50:43 [jeanne]
action: jeanne to add 4.4.b/c to the document as proposed above in minutes of December 17.
18:50:43 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-260 - Add 4.4.b/c to the document as proposed above in minutes of December 17. [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2009-12-24].
18:50:50 [Greg]
My thought was, if a Web technology has an element where the flash rate is defined by the UA, BUT which can never exceed the flash threshold because it can never be a large area (or a high contrast), then prohibiting it from flashing quickly is going beyond health requirements.
18:51:36 [Greg]
I'm not sure that's very important, but it should be considered.
18:52:17 [Greg]
I'm trying to figure out why we need to keep 4.4.a, as it seems very close to being a subset of 4.4.b AND has the same priority.
18:55:51 [Greg]
One difference is that 4.4.a changes default behavior while 4.4.b can be optional, which is a significant difference.
18:57:31 [Greg]
There are a whole bunch of variable, such as: (a)where the user can specify a blink rate or merely turn on a pre-defined limit on and off; (b) whether any limit is imposed by default, vs. only when requested by the user; (c) whether it applies to rates solely under the control of the UA vs. also to content-specified rates recognized by the UA; (d) priority.
18:58:24 [Greg]
(e) limiting flash rate in all cases vs. limiting flash rate only when it would exceed a threshold because of size and/or luminance.
18:59:31 [Greg]
(f) whether it applies to the UA UI vs. and/or applying to Web content.
19:00:25 [AllanJ]
4.4.2 Three Flashes: No part of the user interface ever flashes more than three times in any one second period. (Level AAA) [WCAG 2.0]
19:01:35 [Greg]
What am I missing with this matrix?
19:01:40 [Greg]
4.4.1 UI - rate OR threshold - always - A
19:01:41 [Greg]
4.4.2 UI - rate - always - AAA
19:01:43 [Greg]
4.4.a Content - rate - always - A
19:01:44 [Greg]
4.4.b Content - rate - optional - A
19:06:41 [Greg]
Jim: 4.5.1 says user can adjust settings that affect accessibility (Level A), which is very broad but included so every possible setting doesn't need its own entry.
19:08:30 [Greg]
Jim and Greg will work on ACTION-258 off-line, reviewing all of 4.4.
19:08:41 [AllanJ]
agree with Kim, that 4.4.b should be a special case and called out, separate from 4.5.a
19:10:26 [Greg]
We'll need to make sure the combined 4.4.b/c doesn't lose the distinction between user SPECIFIED rate vs. merely user option to cap the rate.
19:12:29 [Greg]
Moving on to Jim's proposal in email titled Toggle Metadata Visibility.
19:13:44 [AllanJ]
topic: Toggle metadata visibility
19:13:46 [AllanJ]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2009OctDec/0103.html
19:14:02 [AllanJ]
too much infomation is just as bad as too little
19:14:57 [Greg]
If the user doesn't have the option to select WHICH types of alternative content trigger notification, turning on display for all types could make the document unusuable, or cause the type of alternative content the user cares about to be lost amidst a sea of things they don't care about.
19:15:47 [AllanJ]
KP: important for people to discover, organize and share settings
19:15:47 [Greg]
Kim: Important for people to be able to save and share settings for things like this.
19:20:47 [AllanJ]
GL: expand acronym inline would be great for all users
19:21:21 [Greg]
Mark: what would showing alternative content do to screen real estate?
19:22:05 [AllanJ]
GL: need a unified way for UA to expand or contract items, and access to all the content. and layout is over riden
19:23:24 [Greg]
Kim: Numbered links feature in Firefox had screen real estate problems, but has evolved over time to be more usable.
19:23:25 [AllanJ]
s/riden/ridden
19:25:57 [Greg]
We are definitely telling UA developers that they need to handle cases where the user overrides author formatting (such as by making text large enough for them to read), and this is just one more example of where that will apply.
19:26:29 [AllanJ]
Action: Jim to create proposal to reinstate 3.2.4 simultaneous rendering
19:26:29 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-261 - Create proposal to reinstate 3.2.4 simultaneous rendering [on Jim Allan - due 2009-12-24].
19:27:41 [Zakim]
-mhakkinen
19:27:46 [Zakim]
-iheni
19:27:52 [Zakim]
-Kim
19:29:41 [Zakim]
-Greg
19:29:57 [AllanJ]
regrets+Kelly_Ford
19:31:52 [AllanJ]
rrsagent, set logs public
19:32:26 [iheni]
iheni has left #ua
19:32:42 [AllanJ]
rragent, draft minutes
19:32:50 [AllanJ]
rrsagent, draft minutes
19:32:50 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/12/17-ua-minutes.html AllanJ
19:33:50 [AllanJ]
zakim, please part
19:33:50 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were +0127320aaaa, Jeanne, AllanJ, Greg, Kim, iheni, mhakkinen
19:33:50 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #ua
19:34:42 [AllanJ]
rrsagent, draft minutes
19:34:42 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/12/17-ua-minutes.html AllanJ
19:35:29 [AllanJ]
rrsagent, please part
19:35:29 [RRSAgent]
I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/12/17-ua-actions.rdf :
19:35:29 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jeanne to update the document with the new language for 4.9.6. See minutes of 17 December for correct text. [1]
19:35:29 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/12/17-ua-irc#T18-20-44
19:35:29 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jeanne to add 4.4.b/c to the document as proposed above in minutes of December 17. [2]
19:35:29 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/12/17-ua-irc#T18-50-43
19:35:29 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Jim to create proposal to reinstate 3.2.4 simultaneous rendering [3]
19:35:29 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/12/17-ua-irc#T19-26-29