15:57:54 RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
15:57:54 logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/12/17-html-a11y-irc
15:57:56 RRSAgent, make logs world
15:57:56 Zakim has joined #html-a11y
15:57:58 Zakim, this will be 2119
15:57:59 Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
15:57:59 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
15:57:59 Date: 17 December 2009
15:58:12 regrets: Ben_Caldwell,Eric_Carlson,Laura_Carlson,Stephane_Deschamps,Markku_Hakkinen,Gez_Lemon,Sylvia_Pfeiffer,Marco_Ranon
15:58:14 chair: Janina_Sajka
15:58:32 agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2009Dec/0083.html
15:59:19 janina has joined #html-a11y
15:59:41 zakim, call janina
15:59:41 ok, janina; the call is being made
16:00:07 wendy has joined #html-a11y
16:00:17 present+ Michael_Cooper
16:00:21 present+ Gregory_Rosmaita
16:00:28 present+ Janina_Sajka
16:00:40 present+Jim_Allan
16:00:51 Stevef has joined #html-a11y
16:01:30 cyns has joined #html-a11y
16:01:34 present+ David_Singer
16:01:34 present+Wendy_Chisholm
16:01:46 present+ Steve_Faulkner
16:01:57 regrets for december 17
16:01:57 regrets eric_carlson
16:01:57 regrets John_Gunderson
16:01:57 regrets Marco_Ranon
16:01:57 regrets stephane_deschamps
16:01:57 regrets Markku_Hakkinen
16:01:59 regrets Ben_Caldwell
16:02:25 richardschwerdtfe has joined #html-a11y
16:02:44 present+ Rich_Schwerdtfeger
16:02:48 present+ Henny_Swan
16:02:55 present+ Cynthia_Shelly
16:03:31 present+ Martin_Kliehm
16:03:38 Laura has joined #html-a11y
16:04:19 present+ Paul_Cotton
16:04:52 present+ Charles_McCathieNevile
16:05:02 present+ Laura_Carlson
16:05:29 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/12/17-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
16:05:34 scribe:Stevef
16:05:36 ~Meeting: HTML-A11Y telecon
16:05:36 Chair: Janina_Sajka
16:05:36 agenda: this
16:05:36 agenda+ Actions Review
16:05:36 agenda+ reports from TF Subgroups (Canvas; Video; ...)
16:05:36 agenda+ Table Summary
16:05:38 agenda+ next meeting, confirm date/time, choose scribe
16:05:40 agenda+ New Business
16:05:42 agenda+ be done
16:06:10 new wiki pages:
16:06:12 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Meetings
16:06:16 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Meetings/Minutes
16:06:20 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Meetings/Minutes/Caucus (historical)
16:06:25 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Access
16:06:28 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Access/access_key_requirements
16:06:59 janina: 2 action items, cyns posted her item, so mark as closed
16:07:40 janina: aria conversation has not moved to email, need to get agenda moving
16:07:58 janina: touch base with sub teams - canvas
16:08:40 q+ to ask rich if want to try and get RWAB XG successor group to develop the shadow DOM as a RIA
16:08:46 Rich: asked for canvas neet today, need shadow dom to support accessibility, also need to support alternate interfaces, based on commenst from j craig and dave singer
16:09:49 ack me
16:09:49 oedipus, you wanted to ask rich if want to try and get RWAB XG successor group to develop the shadow DOM as a RIA
16:09:51 rich: problem is media quieries don't exist so need to add to CSS, how do we co-ordinate this, but do believe that it is needed, shadow dom is not enough, call at 3pm boston time
16:09:54 chaals has joined #html-a11y
16:10:33 janin: can people announce themselves
16:11:13 dsinger: what is needed new keywords for CSS media queiries?, or syntax and processing rules/
16:11:32 rich: need to support more than the media types in html5 today
16:11:48 dsinger: there will be new media queries
16:12:25 rich: examples needed: high contrast, keyword
16:12:41 dsinger: CSS working groupo supportive of this
16:13:19 rich: may need user agent to do best fit, requested alternate
16:13:41 rich: main issues, shadow dom and alternates
16:14:08 GJR: suggested shadow DOM as a RIA
16:14:20 [regrets for the meeting today :( ]
16:14:37 SteveF: as far as shadow DOM and activedescendent as main way to control?
16:14:44 rich: yes we are going to want shadow RIA
16:15:26 AllanJ has joined #html-a11y
16:15:41 q?
16:16:09 tabindex versus SVG-suggested "order" attribute for Access Element
16:16:41 q+
16:16:42 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/ED-xhtml-access-20090423/#A_order
16:16:47 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/ED-xhtml-access-20090423/#A_media
16:16:50 q-
16:17:22 janina: main intereste in subteam reports are co-ordination issues
16:17:40 rich: who in CSS to talk to?
16:18:07 disnger: put it up on the wiki, CSS mailing list of meetings
16:18:35 rich: there is a post out on the canvas mailing list , please repsond dsinger;
16:18:55 disnger: video subtema report: some stuff up on wiki
16:20:17 janina: main topic: summary attribute, contraversial, people continue to discuss, no reoslution, PF has asked for it to be put back, but still discussion goes on
16:21:00 cynbs: long thread on mailing list based on chnage proposal,
16:21:17 Topic:@summary for TABLE
16:21:23 Current State of @summary discussion (CynS) - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2009Dec/0094.html
16:22:25 cyns: new stuff suggsted to be put into summary
16:22:26 we are facing an endemic fear of invisible meta-data and meta-data in general
16:22:27 one of the main objection it is hidden, so will probably be incorrect or out of date
16:22:49 q!
16:22:54 q+
16:22:58 cyns: hidden meta data is bad, details has hidden data by default
16:23:18 s/hidden meta-data is bad/contention is that hidden meta-data is bad/
16:23:25 cyns: validation warning on @summary is a blocker for accessibility people
16:24:14 cyns: people have been asking for data, talking past each other as what means data is not agreed
16:24:36 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Summary_Change_Proposal_Nov_18%2C_2009
16:24:47 mhakkinen has joined #html-a11y
16:24:50 cyns: did a a quick review of summary data, found that what was available was often useful
16:26:15 meta data is hidden most of the time, the problem is reable hidden meta data
16:26:38 readable
16:26:48 cyns: leif hs made an alternative proposal, seemed inter suggested media type setting top display hidden mataesting, but don't have time to pursue, also display of summary (when?) maybe in authoring scenarios, maciej in particular didn't like it
16:26:48 q?
16:26:57 q+ to say things that go wrong aren't always harmful, and arguing forever on something that existed is harmful
16:27:31 dsinger has joined #html-a11y
16:27:46 janina: whether data is hidden or not is not an accessibility issue
16:28:12 zakim, who is here?
16:28:12 WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM has not yet started, dsinger
16:28:13 On IRC I see dsinger, mhakkinen, AllanJ, chaals, Laura, richardschwerdtfe, cyns, Stevef, wendy, janina, Zakim, RRSAgent, levy-aurelien, iheni, oedipus, LeifHS, kliehm, MichaelC,
16:28:15 ... davidb, krijnh, trackbot
16:28:34 it is for cognitive accessibility
16:28:35 janina: if other users want to use the data, then they should tell the users agent to display
16:28:37 zakim, this is WAI_PFWG
16:28:37 ok, dsinger; that matches WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM
16:28:48 zakim, who is here?
16:28:48 On the phone I see kliehm, AllanJ, Cooper, Gregory_Rosmaita, Janina, Wendy, ??P5, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, +0127320aaaa (muted), Cynthia_Shelly, Matt_May, [Microsoft], Laura, ??P19,
16:28:52 ... [Apple]
16:28:53 On IRC I see dsinger, mhakkinen, AllanJ, chaals, Laura, richardschwerdtfe, cyns, Stevef, wendy, janina, Zakim, RRSAgent, levy-aurelien, iheni, oedipus, LeifHS, kliehm, MichaelC,
16:28:55 ... davidb, krijnh, trackbot
16:28:59 zakim, [apple] has dsinger
16:28:59 +dsinger; got it
16:29:09 cyns: hidden or display is of summary is an issue for authors and designers
16:29:10 there is (a) a need for the TABLE's structure and organization to be communicated to those who are parsing the TABLE non-visually, or through a VERY small point-of-regard and (b) no reason why a user agent, an authoring tool, or any other program cannot provide a means to expose the content of @summary at a user's request -- whatever form that request takes, but there is NO usability need to provide ALL users with a summary which is intended to provide co
16:29:43 cyns: if summary users toogleable with a default of hidden
16:30:50 chaals: stuff that the author or user doesn't look at gets broken quicker than stuff that the author/user does see
16:31:13 q?
16:31:17 ack
16:31:50 ack janina
16:31:54 chaals: this thinking then leads to statements of summary being bad for accessinbility, i don't agree with this, what harm is done by content that is wrong?
16:31:55 ack ch
16:31:55 chaals, you wanted to say things that go wrong aren't always harmful, and arguing forever on something that existed is harmful
16:32:28 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2009Dec/0056.html near the bottom of this post, there is a list of summaries from a web crawl that the original analysis thought poor, but that I think are useful
16:33:38 iheni has left #html-a11y
16:34:14 I'm happy to help.
16:34:14 chaals: all out of band description stuff suffers from this issue, one of the design principals missing is does this do damage/, but if this group were to say, having accessibility attributes that may contain wrong content does nopt necessarily cause harm.
16:34:52 i am losing sound can someone scribe until i can hear again
16:34:59 cynthia: I'm happy to work with you on any of the summary stuff.
16:35:26 scribe: Rich
16:35:44 cindy: Wendy, I will take you up on that
16:35:47 scribenick: richardschwerdtfe
16:35:57 janina: you need someone on the cell API?
16:36:01 s/cindy/cynthia
16:36:04 wendy: I can work on both
16:36:27 cynthia: data analysis. we need to look at this on the call. I sent a link earlier.
16:36:29 -??P5
16:36:54 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2009Dec/0056.html
16:37:07 +??P18
16:37:33 zakim, ??P18 is me
16:37:33 +Stevef; got it
16:37:39 q+
16:37:48 cynthia: I need advice (this call for data). I went through examples of bad summary and more than half were helpful. I would like someone to weigh in on whether my assessments were useful.
16:37:59 rich: i am back
16:38:12 matt: Hixie's statements that some were harmful were incorrect in my mind.
16:38:27 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/12/17-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
16:38:47 cyns: haven't seen people going bthrough and checking crawls
16:38:48 cynthia: I have not seen people that went through the calls that said whether the summaries were useful
16:39:16 cynthia: for example calendar, search results, main content, mp3 downloads, ... many of these were useful as summaries
16:39:20 yes:
16:39:24 I have
16:39:31 cynthia: has anyone spent time going through these?
16:40:20 matt: my recollection of the long list was that 20 percent were bogus. Some use meta data that was just garbage. One bad tool should not account for 20% of the content that was out there. ... the numbers start to turn around
16:40:32 also many 'bogus' summarys are never heard by AT users as they are on layout ttables that are ignored by AT
16:40:42 matt: it easy to pick out things that do what they were intended to do.
16:41:00 cynthia: I did not go through the whole thing. The most common summary was calendar
16:41:27 cytnthia: i did not do a percentage but half were useful which is different from the impression that others gave.
16:41:36 janina; 50 percent is very good
16:41:55 cynthia: they did identify the table pretty well
16:42:29 cynthia: banner, etc. was a good chunking mechanism. I need someone from the HTML working group that can help me surface this.
16:42:48 steve: if that information is in the hidden meta data that is good.
16:43:04 cynthia; saying that something is a calendar is not useful to a sited user
16:43:08 calendar may not be necessary, it is certainly not "harmful."
16:43:10 but is it harmful to re-inforce the truth?
16:43:13 s/sited/sighted/
16:43:39 janina: the hiddenness is not the accessibility feature.
16:44:08 summary attribute usage data http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/misc/summary.html
16:44:13 perhaps we should therefore make it 'gently visible' by default (because then people will notice things that are wrong)...
16:44:41 dsinger, that is an authoring tool's responsibility
16:44:54 q+ to note that the hiddenness *is* an accessibility feature
16:45:29 cynthia: I am leaning on keeping summary and details - which are both hidden. Place text in the text to visualize captions where necessary. The author should provide a user controllable switch for showing these. The browser could provide this functionality. We should further expose the table API to AT.
16:45:33 15 minute warning
16:46:02 [I thnk the validator warnings are one of the big barriers to consensus]
16:46:08 dsinger, CAPTION for TABLE is terse descriptor, @summary for table is long descriptor
16:46:10 cynthia: Am I correct in the disability community is that the concern is the validator warnings.
16:46:21 janina: yes, as it tells the author they can't do this
16:46:27 q+
16:46:48 janina: we now place ourselves in conflict with U.S. govmt., for example, where summary is entrenched.
16:47:00 : Many authors, such as in government, like to know when they have fulfilled their duty. Today this is "easy": Did you use @summary? Yes or no? If there were a corresponding visible element (as child of , I see no other option), then the question could be: Did you use either @summary or . In my view it is also needed to separate the "clean" caption information from the explanation information that HTML 5 now allows inside janina: we perhaps could engineer a better summary
16:47:27 Janina: we need to move through a phase of re-engineering
16:47:41 janina: the wording is not good
16:48:00 q?
16:48:00 q?
16:48:38 Steve: I wanted to say in reference to what Cynthia was saying. What appeared to be reasonable summary attributes. What appeared to be layout tables would be ignored anyway.
16:48:39 ack ste
16:49:05 Steve: For a layout table, whatever the content is the summary would be taken away
16:49:31 ack me
16:49:31 chaals, you wanted to note that the hiddenness *is* an accessibility feature
16:50:05 chaals: the hiddenness is an accessibility feature. The fact that this stuff is not plastered all over the page willy nilly is important
16:50:26 chaals: we are minimizing the cognitive overload by not showing the stuff
16:50:28 q
16:50:30 q?
16:50:40 http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/HTML5/Table/LayoutTABLEDeprecation
16:50:49 janina: accessibility would state that it would not stay hidden
16:50:56 "The summary attribute on table elements was suggested in earlier versions of the language as a technique for providing explanatory text for complex tables for users of screen readers. One of the techniques described above should be used instead. " current text in the html5 spec says don't use it
16:51:01 janina: we don't want to interrupt the reading flow
16:51:06 RATIONALE: Just as use of BLOCKQUOTE to achieve a stylistic effect was DEPRECATED in favor of stylesheets in HTML 4.01, so, too, should use of TABLE for layout and stylistic purposes should be DEPRECATED in favor of stylesheets
16:51:18 chaals: in the broad view the cognitive overload matters
16:51:20 -Wendy
16:51:41 janina: sure
16:51:55 cynthia: when I said design I also meant usability concerns
16:52:14 matt: sometimes you need hidden meta data to recover from problems
16:53:17 dsinger: if it is a feature for the rest of the world we should let the HTML working group here. the html working group state that it may be shown. we could say that it be visible in certain scenarios - like tools
16:53:21 agree with chaals, provided the information is 'revealable' to the user by the User Agent
16:53:25 cynthia: this may be a way out of this morass
16:53:55 cynthia: when we had alt text shown for tooltips this changed how authors supplied alt text
16:54:43 rich: I think we should require that summary being shown should be a browser function based on user demand that they be revealed
16:55:26 q+ to say that hidden summary metadata is consistent with @datetime
16:55:32 Allanj: I agree. it may be useful for some people. We are looking for this in the user agent guidelines.
16:56:03 Rich: I think there should be some sort of reveal function to show more information about content.
16:56:31 janina: why should a person with a disability be the only person that has access to the additional information
16:56:42 ported TABLE layout deprecation page to HTML A11y TF wiki: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Table/layout_TABLE_deprecation
16:57:07 cynthia: so this a mechanism for browsers where they SHOULD provide a feature that shows summary
16:57:25 janina: so it seems that we have agreement as to what this proposal should say
16:58:10 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/12/17-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
16:58:16 TWO MINUTE WARNING
16:58:19 cynthia: the first thing is to update the change proposal and send it to our list and Ian in particular to see that people can sign up for this
16:58:22 -[Microsoft]
16:59:05 jim, that's why i use the @summary is to @longdesc as CAPTION is to @al
16:59:06 Allanj: we should say this is human useful metadata. There are things that we want machines to know about. although there are things that users may need to know about.
16:59:19 s/@al/@alt
16:59:51 iheni has joined #html-a11y
17:00:17 cynthia: may I have permission to modify the change proposal to incorporate this feedback.
17:00:26 janina: 14th of January?
17:00:27 -??P19
17:00:37 -kliehm
17:00:38 cynthia: yes
17:00:52 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Meetings/Minutes
17:01:18 -Laura
17:01:19 ACTION: cynthia create revised summary proposal for January 14th, 2010
17:01:19 Created ACTION-3 - Create revised summary proposal for January 14th, 2010 [on Cynthia Shelly - due 2009-12-24].
17:01:25 -Gregory_Rosmaita
17:01:31