19:49:31 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #ssn
19:49:31 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/12/16-ssn-irc
19:49:33 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
19:49:33 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #ssn
19:49:35 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 7769
19:49:36 <trackbot> Meeting: Semantic Sensor Network Incubator Group Teleconference
19:49:36 <trackbot> Date: 16 December 2009
19:49:36 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see INC_SSN()3:00PM scheduled to start in 11 minutes
19:50:05 <kerry> agenda+ actions from last meting
19:50:22 <kerry> agenda+ tracker voting
19:50:53 <kerry> agenda+ xg deliverables & extension
19:51:07 <kerry> agenda+ AOB
19:51:27 <kerry> ?agenda
19:51:34 <kerry> agenda?
19:51:50 <kerry> chair: kerry
19:52:12 <kerry> Cair: kerry
19:52:18 <kerry> Chair: kerry
19:54:33 <Zakim> INC_SSN()3:00PM has now started
19:54:42 <Zakim> + +61.4.097.8.aaaa
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19:55:28 <Zakim> +??P6
19:55:40 <Payam> zakim ??P6 is me
19:55:53 <Payam> zakim, ??P6 is me
19:55:53 <Zakim> +Payam; got it
19:57:40 <Zakim> +??P7
20:01:29 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
20:01:49 <Arthur> Arthur has joined #ssn
20:01:55 <Manfred_DERI> Manfred_DERI has joined #ssn
20:02:34 <Zakim> +??P9
20:02:48 <Arthur> zakim, ??P9 is me
20:02:48 <Zakim> +Arthur; got it
20:03:04 <krp> krp has joined #ssn
20:03:50 <michael> michael has joined #ssn
20:04:20 <Zakim> +krp
20:04:33 <Zakim> + +1.202.408.aabb
20:04:48 <Zakim> +Prateek
20:05:03 <Bermudez_Luis> Bermudez_Luis has joined #ssn
20:05:22 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
20:05:43 <michael> zakim, P{caller.a] is me
20:05:43 <Zakim> sorry, michael, I do not recognize a party named 'P{caller.a]'
20:07:06 <AmitSheth> AmitSheth has joined #ssn
20:08:00 <kerry> agenda?
20:08:32 <Zakim> + +1.650.450.aacc
20:08:44 <michael> zakim, [IPcaller.a] is me
20:08:44 <Zakim> +michael; got it
20:09:30 <kerry> ScribeNick: Bermudez_Luis
20:10:24 <Bermudez_Luis> Topic: Actions from Last Meeting
20:11:09 <Arthur> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/ssn/track/issues/
20:13:34 <Bermudez_Luis> ...no concrete actions
20:13:58 <Bermudez_Luis> Topic: Tracker Voting
20:14:47 <Manfred_DERI> The tracker URL is not working for me
20:14:53 <Bermudez_Luis> Topic: Issue object properties
20:15:29 <Manfred_DERI> no worrieds
20:15:47 <krp> Working for me too (but you need a W3C login)
20:15:50 <michael> do you have to log into w3c website?
20:15:54 <Manfred_DERI> yes
20:16:03 <Manfred_DERI> Login and the rest works fine
20:16:04 <Bermudez_Luis> Kerry: Vote about issue http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/ssn/track/issues/1
20:16:56 <Manfred_DERI> Ok works now
20:17:02 <Manfred_DERI> took 5min ...
20:17:15 <Arthur> if I remember right there is also an tracker-agent for IRC, we can invite
20:17:33 <krp> there's a trackbot on the channel
20:19:32 <michael> +1
20:19:35 <Payam> +1
20:19:37 <krp> +1
20:19:37 <Bermudez_Luis> +1
20:19:38 <laurent_oz> +1
20:19:38 <Manfred_DERI> +1
20:19:45 <Arthur> +1
20:19:46 <kerry> +1
20:20:57 <Bermudez_Luis> ACTION: Michael: make changes to ontology
20:20:58 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1 - Make changes to ontology [on Michael Compton - due 2009-12-23].
20:21:41 <Bermudez_Luis> ACTION: Michael: make changes to ontology close issue 1
20:21:42 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2 - Make changes to ontology close issue 1 [on Michael Compton - due 2009-12-23].
20:23:07 <Manfred_DERI> The comments are also on http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/ssn/track/issues/2
20:23:57 <Bermudez_Luis> Topic: System and Process - Issue 2- http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/ssn/track/issues/2
20:24:50 <krp> The emails have all been in the last half hour... (I was having dinner!)
20:24:55 <Manfred_DERI> click on louis's original issue, in the window which comes then, you have have also the other emails and they are accessible
20:25:35 <krp> +q
20:25:40 <laurent_oz> +q
20:25:51 <Manfred_DERI> +q
20:26:15 <kerry> ack krp
20:26:40 <Bermudez_Luis> ACTION: Luis: separate Issue 2 in 3 issues
20:26:40 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3 - Separate Issue 2 in 3 issues [on Luis Bermudez - due 2009-12-23].
20:26:53 <kerry> ack laurent_oz
20:27:40 <michael> +q
20:28:14 <Bermudez_Luis> Kerry:have not looked at the recent thread related to issue 2
20:28:17 <krp> sorry, that wasn't the unmute button was it :-/
20:28:22 <Bermudez_Luis> Michael :have not looked at the recent thread related to issue 2
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20:29:08 <Manfred_DERI> I would like to comment on issue 2 as well.
20:29:41 <Manfred_DERI> I think John made a very good comment: We should come up with a set of definitions. This will help us to understand each other better and simplify interactions and coming up with an agreement. And additionally, we can use these definitions to explain the ontology to other people as they then have the possibility to understand our thinking.
20:29:43 <graybeal> +q
20:30:33 <kerry> trackbot: +manfred_DERI
20:30:33 <trackbot> Sorry, kerry, I don't understand 'trackbot: +manfred_DERI'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
20:30:49 <Bermudez_Luis> Kevin: Relation between sensor and devices ?
20:30:56 <kerry> ack Manfred_DERI
20:31:32 <krp> I agree... on agreeing about terms
20:31:37 <Payam> +1
20:31:51 <krp> I put a possible starting point on the wiki before the f2f: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/ssn/wiki/SWE_terms
20:31:56 <Bermudez_Luis> Manfred: Need definitions and process of conveying to these definitions
20:32:56 <Bermudez_Luis> Kerry: Kevin responded to this
20:33:20 <Bermudez_Luis> Kevin: List of terms and definitions are already on the wiki. 
20:34:29 <kerry> ack michael
20:34:34 <laurent_oz> Agree with Manfred on the care to take to explain where the ontology come from 
20:34:36 <Bermudez_Luis> Manfred: rationale is very important for system implementers and for improving the acceptance 
20:35:32 <krp> +1 I also don't think all sensors are devices - I think we need the different concepts that Michael mentions
20:36:46 <krp> Though I'm not too bothered what either is called ;)   As long as the concepts are separate.
20:37:05 <Manfred_DERI> When conceptualize, we should also give examples. 
20:37:20 <Manfred_DERI> Examples help the understanding tremendously because you understand the otherwise quite abstract terms. 
20:38:04 <krp> From said wiki page... Sensor: An entity capable of observing a phenomenon and returning an observed value.
20:38:30 <Arthur> why not leave sensor and device independent, than we still can create a combination like Sensor-device which inherits from both
20:39:32 <kerry> ack graybeal
20:39:33 <Bermudez_Luis> Michael: Device and Sensors are conceptually different. Device is a  physical thing. Sensor produces a value for a property, not neccesarly a device..
20:41:26 <Bermudez_Luis> graybeal: Make difference between meaning of the words and meaning of the concepts within the ontology 
20:41:57 <krp> How about with use the tracker to start with, and suggest changes to: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/ssn/wiki/SWE_terms
20:43:13 <Manfred_DERI> +q
20:43:34 <kerry> ack Manfred DERI
20:43:40 <Bermudez_Luis> graybeal: Possible solutions - create definitions and then we think about the label 
20:44:56 <Payam> +q
20:45:16 <Manfred_DERI> -q
20:45:23 <Bermudez_Luis> Manfred_DERI: we should not be limited to our specific area. Spend more time in looking at the larger picture  
20:45:26 <AmitSheth> It may be worth considering an upport ontology appproach
20:45:29 <kerry> ack Payam
20:46:30 <krp> +q
20:46:33 <graybeal> We don't have to worry about aligning our use of the Sensor concept exactly with other uses (for one thing other uses are contradictory; for another our use is within the context of our ontology)
20:46:37 <Bermudez_Luis> AmitSheth: design to extend is important
20:47:24 <Bermudez_Luis> Payam: Use Resource in a general sense 
20:48:10 <graybeal> By pursuing the idea of a glossary offline we can work on the meaning-first vs names-first during that process
20:48:27 <Manfred_DERI> +q
20:48:51 <Bermudez_Luis> Kerry: We agree on start working on definitions, starting with SWE terms, and working on definitions first.  John proposal ?
20:49:22 <Zakim> -Prateek
20:50:06 <krp> I suggest if anyone wants changes to the wiki glossary we take them to the tracker.
20:50:21 <Manfred_DERI> I think the Wiki is easier
20:50:37 <Bermudez_Luis> John: Suggestion: pursue wiki definitions. Need to come to an agreement about concepts and specific terms
20:50:37 <krp> Where changes are: term modifications, or term removals
20:50:45 <Manfred_DERI> +q
20:50:50 <laurent_oz> +q
20:50:54 <Bermudez_Luis> +q
20:53:19 <kerry> ack krp
20:53:29 <Bermudez_Luis> kerry:have an editor to apply changes.. comments in the wiki...
20:53:37 <kerry> ack Manfred_DERI
20:53:49 <laurent_oz> Use cases review points to "categories" : need to split also the terms defs
20:53:49 <laurent_oz> SWE terms corresponds to the Sensor/Observations (Observatories) not necessary to Semantic Sensor Networks and Grids 
20:53:57 <kerry> ack laurent_oz
20:54:05 <Bermudez_Luis> Manfred_DERI: wiki +
20:54:22 <graybeal> +1 on having an editor be the coordinator of the process of developing definitions
20:54:42 <laurent_oz> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/ssn/wiki/Use_cases
20:54:47 <kerry> ack Bermudez_Luis
20:54:56 <graybeal> any process is OK, but it is important to have an editor to align everyone's process
20:55:26 <Manfred_DERI> +q
20:55:56 <kerry> ack Manfred_DERI
20:55:59 <graybeal> having the editor specify the process: +1
20:56:01 <Bermudez_Luis> kerry: need to find out who is the editor..
20:56:28 <Manfred_DERI> -q
20:56:42 <Bermudez_Luis> Manfred_DERI: Proposing Luis...
20:57:18 <Bermudez_Luis> kerry: This person will be organizing the process etc..
20:57:46 <krp> Well, O&M and SensorML
20:58:47 <krp> So I could do it if Luis doesn't want to (though the next two weeks aren't good!)
21:00:07 <michael> +1
21:00:11 <Manfred_DERI> +1
21:00:12 <Bermudez_Luis> kerry: vote Luis role as editor of the glossar of terms and developed the process through the wiki and comming with issues to the meeting
21:00:12 <krp> +1
21:00:27 <kerry> +1
21:00:28 <Payam> +1
21:00:28 <laurent_oz> +1 with kevin as co-editor?
21:00:43 <graybeal> +1
21:00:50 <Bermudez_Luis> +1 for Kevin as co-editor
21:01:00 <Manfred_DERI> +1 for Kevin as co-editor
21:01:18 <Arthur> +1
21:02:06 <Bermudez_Luis> ACTION; Luis and Kevin editors of the glossary  and will start the process of moving it forward 
21:02:09 <laurent_oz> Kevin do you want me to do the use case you were lined up against with Oscar?
21:02:38 <Bermudez_Luis> Topic: xg deliverables & extension
21:03:10 <krp> laurent_oz: Feel free to start on something. We're really run off our feet at the moment (as expected), so I haven't even had the chance to discuss it with Oscar yet.
21:04:42 <Bermudez_Luis> kerry: Not straightforward. Need to do draft report
21:05:02 <Bermudez_Luis> ... deliverable onotology on March..
21:06:15 <laurent_oz> +q
21:06:35 <Bermudez_Luis> ... we have progress on markup.. not clear on semantic annotation progress
21:06:48 <kerry> ack laurent_oz
21:07:25 <Bermudez_Luis> laurent_oz: activity presented at the OGC meeting at the U Munster related to the markup task
21:08:20 <Zakim> - +1.650.450.aacc
21:09:09 <Bermudez_Luis> kerry: next meeting is next week
21:09:36 <krp> Advance apologies, I very much doubt I can make next week.
21:09:45 <michael> thanks
21:09:49 <Zakim> -michael
21:09:49 <michael> michael has left #ssn
21:09:53 <Manfred_DERI> thank you, bye
21:10:05 <Zakim> -Payam
21:10:07 <Payam> bye
21:10:09 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
21:10:12 <Zakim> -Arthur
21:10:16 <kerry> bye
21:10:16 <Arthur> Arthur has left #ssn
21:10:21 <Zakim> - +61.4.097.8.aaaa
21:10:25 <Manfred_DERI> Manfred_DERI has left #ssn
21:10:25 <Zakim> - +1.202.408.aabb
21:10:26 <Zakim> -??P7
21:10:26 <Zakim> -krp
21:10:26 <Zakim> INC_SSN()3:00PM has ended
21:10:27 <Zakim> Attendees were +61.4.097.8.aaaa, Payam, [IPcaller], Arthur, krp, +1.202.408.aabb, Prateek, +1.650.450.aacc, michael
21:10:30 <Bermudez_Luis> bye
21:10:35 <kerry> zakim, bye
21:10:35 <Zakim> Zakim has left #ssn
21:10:55 <kerry> rrsagent make log public
21:11:07 <kerry> rrsagent draft minutes
21:11:23 <kerry> rrsagent, bye
21:11:23 <RRSAgent> I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/12/16-ssn-actions.rdf :
21:11:23 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Michael: make changes to ontology [1]
21:11:23 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/12/16-ssn-irc#T20-20-57
21:11:23 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Michael: make changes to ontology close issue 1 [2]
21:11:23 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/12/16-ssn-irc#T20-21-41
21:11:23 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Luis: separate Issue 2 in 3 issues [3]
21:11:23 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/12/16-ssn-irc#T20-26-40