14:49:59 RRSAgent has joined #sparql 14:49:59 logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/12/15-sparql-irc 14:50:01 RRSAgent, make logs world 14:50:01 Zakim has joined #sparql 14:50:03 Zakim, this will be 77277 14:50:03 ok, trackbot; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 10 minutes 14:50:04 Meeting: SPARQL Working Group Teleconference 14:50:04 Date: 15 December 2009 14:50:04 zakim, this will be SPARQL 14:50:06 ok, LeeF; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 10 minutes 14:50:09 Chair: LeeF 14:50:30 LeeF, was there an email to editors about today's schedule? (directly or via the list?) 14:50:43 kasei, not sure what you mean? 14:51:03 LukeWM, are you able to scribe today's meeting? 14:51:04 about wanting to know open issues for the next round of drafts... 14:51:17 LeeF, yes 14:51:20 I feel as if I saw a response to such an email, but not the original. 14:51:30 Ah, I think Axel sent something, one moment 14:52:52 kasei, it was http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2009OctDec/0598.html which has a pretty bad subject :) 14:53:11 The main point was any issues that _need_ to be decided before publication, but i think there aren't many of those 14:53:28 ok. 14:54:13 Scribenick: LukeWM 14:54:14 LukeWM, thanks 14:54:17 can discuss during the call, but I'd like to get some input on the entailment-related SD terms before the publication. 14:54:40 SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has now started 14:54:46 +[IPcaller] 14:54:49 wasn't entirely sure if the entailment terms had been nailed down in that lengthy email thread. 14:54:59 zakim, IPCaller is me 14:54:59 +AndyS; got it 14:55:21 MatthewPerry has joined #sparql 14:55:36 SteveH, we didn't resolve the scope of alias variables last week because we wanted your input - are you happy with the proposal as put in the agenda? 14:55:39 SteveH, custom aggregate syntax? 14:56:11 LeeF, I have no strong feelings on scope, whatever people think is sensible is fine by me 14:56:12 +??P6 14:56:19 thanks, SteveH 14:56:25 AndyS, someone mentioned optional AS, apparently, I'm firmly against that 14:56:33 zakim, ??P6 is me 14:56:33 +LukeWM; got it 14:56:41 +Lee_Feigenbaum 14:56:46 zakim, Lee_Feigenbaum is me 14:56:46 +LeeF; got it 14:57:20 SteveH, reason? Comes up in example applications when not over HTTP. 14:57:25 +??P9 14:57:27 the F2F discussion on custom syntax for aggregates was "Mild opinion in favor of having no keyword or special syntax for custom aggregate functions (LeeF, Axel, SteveH, kasei). pgearon (and observer dajobe) expressed mild preference for a keyword to introduce custom aggregates. Consensus that this should be advice to the editors. " 14:57:41 zakim, ??P9 is me 14:57:41 +MatthewPerry; got it 14:58:10 +kasei 14:58:10 Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2009-12-15 14:58:20 LeeF has changed the topic to: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2009-12-15 14:58:44 Zakim, mute me 14:58:44 kasei should now be muted 14:58:54 It's down to SteveH in the end but this editor would go for no special syntax unless proven to need it in which case AGG(, ..args..) 14:59:18 AndyS - I think that's the general feeling of the group then, but we'll talk about it in a bit (hopefully not for too long!) 14:59:30 +dcharbon2 14:59:32 +??P21 14:59:42 bglimm has joined #sparql 14:59:45 Zakim, ??P21 is me 14:59:46 +KjetilK; got it 14:59:59 I prefer no special syntax too 15:00:10 +pgearon 15:00:42 zakim, who's on the phone? 15:00:43 On the phone I see AndyS, LukeWM, LeeF, MatthewPerry, kasei (muted), KjetilK, dcharbon2, pgearon 15:00:45 Zakim, mute me 15:00:45 KjetilK should now be muted 15:01:00 AlexPassant has joined #sparql 15:01:02 + +8686528aaaa 15:01:11 Yakim, 8686528aaaa is me 15:01:19 Zakim, 8686528aaaa is me 15:01:19 sorry, bglimm, I do not recognize a party named '8686528aaaa' 15:01:31 Zakim, + 8686528aaaa is me 15:01:31 I don't understand '+ 8686528aaaa is me', bglimm 15:01:41 +??P30 15:01:45 Zakim, aaaa is me 15:01:45 +bglimm; got it 15:01:55 Zakim, ??P30 is me 15:01:55 +AlexPassant; got it 15:02:37 +Sandro 15:02:49 chimezie has joined #sparql 15:03:30 zakim, who's on the phone? 15:03:30 On the phone I see AndyS, LukeWM, LeeF, MatthewPerry, kasei (muted), KjetilK (muted), dcharbon2, pgearon, bglimm, AlexPassant, Sandro 15:04:18 +??P38 15:04:53 zakim, ??P38 is Orri 15:04:53 +Orri; got it 15:05:06 zakim, what is the passcode? 15:05:06 the conference code is 77277 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), chimezie 15:05:42 + +1.216.444.aabb 15:05:51 zakim, 1.216.444.aabb is me 15:05:51 sorry, chimezie, I do not recognize a party named '1.216.444.aabb' 15:06:01 LeeF: talks to people about whether they can make the third F2F 15:06:13 Zakim, aabb is chimezie 15:06:13 +chimezie; got it 15:06:46 zakim, who's on the phone? 15:06:46 On the phone I see AndyS, LukeWM, LeeF, MatthewPerry, kasei (muted), KjetilK (muted), dcharbon2, pgearon, bglimm, AlexPassant, Sandro, Orri, chimezie 15:06:54 http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2009-12-15 15:07:00 topic: admin 15:07:05 zakim, mute me 15:07:05 chimezie should now be muted 15:07:09 Zakim, mute me 15:07:09 bglimm should now be muted 15:07:10 Regrets: SteveH, OliverCorby 15:07:14 Regrets: SteveH, OliverCorby, AxelP 15:07:16 PROPOSED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-12-08 15:07:41 RESOLVED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-12-08 15:07:49 Next meeting: 2009-12-22 @ 15:00 UK / 10:00 EST 15:08:07 LeeF: next meeting is going to be next week. 15:08:18 subtopic: F2F3 15:08:23 LeeF: get documents in order for publication in January, so it's useful to come if you can. 15:08:42 F2F3 will be March 25 & 26, 2010 15:08:50 with 2 locations - one in Cambridge, MA at MIT 15:08:54 Zakim, unmute me 15:08:54 bglimm should no longer be muted 15:09:00 LeeF: F3F march 25, 26 with video conferencing. 15:09:12 one location at Oxford, UK 15:09:41 ACTION: Sandro to work with Birte to figure out video conference facilities for F2F3 15:09:42 Created ACTION-154 - Work with Birte to figure out video conference facilities for F2F3 [on Sandro Hawke - due 2009-12-22]. 15:10:11 Zakim, mute me 15:10:11 bglimm should now be muted 15:10:24 LeeF: comment handling, some questions on the process. 15:10:38 http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Comments 15:10:58 LeeF: if you're swapped in on a relevant topic, compose response, put it on a link to the wiki on http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Comments, notify mailing list and wait a few days. 15:11:25 LeeF: if you have a response saying it's OK, send it out, if saying it's not OK, don't send it out. 15:11:38 LeeF: if no response, bug the chairs. 15:11:46 LeeF: no liason business? 15:12:06 topic: scope of alias variables 15:12:57 LeeF: question on the table is can the variable ?SUM be used in other places in the query. 15:13:38 LeeF: proposal is that they can be used in HAVING and further to the right in the SELECT clause, but they can't come in the query pattern. 15:13:41 q+ 15:13:50 ack AndyS 15:13:56 iv_an_ru: why not in order by/group by? 15:14:05 s/iv_an_ru/Orri 15:14:13 wil check here 15:14:13 thanks LeeF 15:14:15 sorry 15:14:27 Should be in ORDER 15:14:53 need example for why it's needed. 15:15:04 (this is GROUP BY in same SLECT block 15:15:05 I think we can hear Andy :) 15:15:33 AndyS: you can't GROUP BY COUNT(*) so the scoping issue is the same 15:15:46 ... because the AS clause introduces new variables. 15:15:57 AndyS: you can say ORDER BY COUNT(*) though. 15:15:58 but grouping by scalar expressions...? 15:16:47 LeeF: we have open actions on SteveH to do with GROUP BY. 15:17:10 LeeF: there are questions on expression equivalence etc. and it's all equivalent. 15:17:25 LeeF: I'd like to resolve this issue without touching the GROUP BY thing. 15:17:30 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2009OctDec/0585.html 15:17:31 AndyS: fine 15:17:51 PROPOSED: Aliased variables can be used in expressions further to the right in the SELECT clause and in the HAVING clause and in the ORDER BY clause; query strings that have an aliased variable elsewhere (e.g. in the query pattern) are malformed queries. 15:18:11 which says no to GROUP and yes to ORDER at that level of the SELECT nexting 15:18:31 q+ 15:18:35 ack kasei 15:18:37 Zakim, unmute me 15:18:37 kasei was not muted, kasei 15:19:06 SELECT (?x + ?y AS ?sum) ... GROUP BY ?sum 15:19:28 kasei: maybe this relates to GROUP BY with scalars? I'm worried by the way it's been phrased. 15:19:32 q+ to say it can be done 15:19:38 ack AndyS 15:19:38 AndyS, you wanted to say it can be done 15:19:50 Zakim, mute me 15:19:50 kasei should now be muted 15:19:52 LeeF:we can revisit the issues with GROUP BY later. 15:20:32 +1 15:20:33 +1 15:20:35 LeeF: order by now, revisit group bys later. 15:20:41 LeeF: happy? 15:20:45 +1 15:20:48 RESOLVED: Aliased variables can be used in expressions further to the right in the SELECT clause and in the HAVING clause and in the ORDER BY clause; query strings that have an aliased variable elsewhere (e.g. in the query pattern) are malformed queries. 15:20:48 +1 15:20:51 +1 15:20:59 topic: custom syntax for aggregates 15:21:07 LeeF: ... summary 15:21:23 LeeF: Aggregate functions are different to scalars in a number of ways. 15:21:39 LeeF: e.g. having, group by. 15:22:00 LeeF: sometimes you have to know if something is an aggregate function rather than a scalar. 15:22:40 LeeF: question is, do we want static syntax errors (grammar doesn't allow error conditions)? 15:22:54 LeeF: no problem for built in aggregates 15:23:44 LeeF: but challenging when custom functions are introduced. Arbitrary URIs don't allow differentiation between scalars and aggregates. 15:24:51 LeeF: Either: 1) a new piece of syntax and static syntax errors, or 2) make error conditions where implementations have to look up URIs and work out whether they're aggregates or not. 15:25:20 Prateek has joined #sparql 15:25:27 Souri has joined #sparql 15:25:39 LeeF: what do you all think? It seems there's a mild leaning towards not having custom syntax. 15:25:49 +ssahoo2 15:26:03 Zakim, ssahoo2 is Prateek 15:26:03 +Prateek; got it 15:26:07 LeeF: pgearon seemed pro custom syntax at F2F 15:26:44 pgearon: happy to go with whatever the group goes with but. 15:26:45 pgearon: was shooting from the hip earlier, but like to have a way of differentiating between what's built in and what's an extension. 15:27:23 LeeF: we can still still differentiate between extensions and built in 15:27:38 +??P42 15:27:43 pgearon: it could be confusing to people 15:28:04 LeeF: anyone else want special syntax for custom aggregates? 15:28:12 zakim, ??P42 is Souri 15:28:12 +Souri; got it 15:28:52 PROPOSED: Custom aggregate functions are invoked by URIs with no special syntax 15:29:13 seconded 15:29:42 I abstain, I just don't know enough about the consequenes 15:29:49 I go with the group too 15:29:57 +0 15:30:01 RESOLVED: Custom aggregate functions are invoked by URIs with no special syntax, no objections or abstentions 15:30:07 LeeF: are you OK with this pgearon? 15:30:16 yes 15:30:20 pgearon: Yes, I'll go with the group 15:30:26 topic: publication 15:30:45 LeeF: had 2 goals. 15:31:10 LeeF: 1) Resolve issues. 15:31:20 LeeF: 2) change information in the document. 15:31:39 LeeF: 3) Make sure reviewers are given a heads up. 15:31:48 change information in the document = change log at bottom or something more? 15:32:19 LeeF: being aggressive, and would like reviews in first week of January. 15:32:50 zakim, unmute me 15:32:51 chimezie should no longer be muted 15:33:01 LeeF: changing information in the document means looking at major changes since last time we looked at. 15:33:08 s/looked at/published/ 15:33:39 LeeF: hopefully publish middle/second half of january. 15:33:39 subtopic: query 15:33:43 http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/query-1.1/ 15:34:00 LeeF: where are we on 1), 2), 3) on query? 15:34:28 AndyS: all but one issue is resolved, the one left is EXISTS or MINUS which won't be resolved with this publication. 15:35:12 AndyS: Need to put exists material in the next few days. 15:35:12 Query reviewers: Birte, Matt Souri, Axel 15:35:30 AndyS: not sure what SteveH's status is. 15:35:44 LeeF: can you give the go ahead to the reviewers in the next week or so? 15:36:01 Is query 1.1 now integrated with query 1.0? 15:36:04 See http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/WG-Documents 15:36:17 AndyS: probably a bit stretched on Steve's end but don't want to put words in his mouth. 15:36:39 http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/query-1.1/rq25.xml 15:36:47 are we using http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/query-1.1/ or http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/query-1.1/rq25.xml? 15:37:06 AndyS: haven't got the formatting sorted yet. 15:38:28 zakim, mute me 15:38:28 chimezie should now be muted 15:39:08 Right now, look at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/query-1.1/rq25.xml for the latest 15:39:27 Souri: rq25.xml is the latest? 15:39:28 subtopic: Update 15:39:29 http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/update-1.1/ 15:39:31 AndyS: yes 15:40:01 ACTION: Andy: Move Overview.html out of the way 15:40:02 Created ACTION-155 - Move Overview.html out of the way [on Andy Seaborne - due 2009-12-22]. 15:40:40 pgearon: The document links issues, do we keep them? 15:41:05 LeeF: Could go either way. It would be nice to keep them in the document. 15:41:22 pgearon: lots of the issues are no longer relevant but not formally resolved. 15:41:32 LeeF: feel free to remove where appropriate. 15:41:51 Update reviewers: AndyS, Axel 15:42:21 LeeF: is it going to be ready for reviewers soon? 15:42:27 pgearon: at least by the weekend? 15:42:48 LeeF: any issues, just bring them up with the chairs, and we'll give teleconference time to them. 15:42:51 subtopic: protocol 15:42:52 http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/protocol-1.1/ 15:43:41 LeeF: david, we should schedule something. 15:43:45 -bglimm 15:43:49 LeeF: friday? 15:44:02 dcharbon2: OK 15:44:15 LeeF & dcharbon2 coordinate a meeting. 15:44:20 Leef & dcharbon2 will meet 11am on Friday to sort through protocol document 15:44:24 +bglimm 15:44:48 subtopic: service description 15:44:48 http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/service-description-1.1/ 15:44:51 LeeF: david & I will send out plan for protocol on the mailing list based on Friday's meeting. 15:44:51 Zakim, unmute me 15:44:51 kasei should no longer be muted 15:45:16 kasei: there are a couple of things to get in this week 15:45:40 kasei: one of them is allowing the dataset to have a different name for the graph than the graph's IRI. 15:46:19 kasei, I didn't understand something, should I just pull from emails? 15:46:32 bglimm: fine by me, not sure about ivan. 15:46:53 SD reviwers: david, Alex, Axel 15:46:53 kasei: will have it done in the next couple of days and then people can look at it. 15:47:08 I'll also have a quick look at SDs 15:47:10 subtopic: http rdf update 15:47:10 http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/http-rdf-update/ 15:47:12 Zakim, mute me 15:47:12 kasei should now be muted 15:47:12 zakim, unmute me 15:47:13 chimezie should no longer be muted 15:47:31 rdf-update: andyS, LeeF, Axel 15:47:33 http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/CommentResponse:ldodds-http-update#Response 15:48:02 http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/http-rdf-update/ 15:48:32 chimezie, added a link to the general idea of a use case for adding a user to a list. 15:49:00 q+ to asks about graph naming 15:49:02 chimezie: items in red are not issues as far as I'm concerned, are they issues according to the working group? 15:49:17 chimezie: we should probably assume RDFXML as a payload type. 15:49:52 ack AndyS 15:49:52 AndyS, you wanted to asks about graph naming 15:49:57 LeeF: in the interests of time, lets leave the red notes in because we might not formally be able to resolve them before publication. 15:50:45 q+ 15:50:51 AndyS: we had a discussion in the working group regarding graph namin. 15:50:52 ack Souri 15:51:16 AndyS: we should probably talk about it. 15:51:19 chimezie: OK 15:51:34 Souri: ntriples will be allowed too, right? 15:51:40 chimezie: yes 15:51:53 LeeF: what do you need to do before reviewers can look at the document. 15:52:15 LeeF: ? 15:52:23 Zakim, mute me 15:52:23 bglimm should now be muted 15:52:27 chimezie: look at the things that have been talked about today. Will take a couple of days. 15:52:31 subtopic: property paths 15:52:32 http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/property-paths/Overview.xml 15:52:47 AndyS: I asked reviewers about publishing as is. 15:53:07 AndyS: as it's the first time, I think getting something out is the most important thing. 15:53:17 AndyS: would like reviewers to make comments on that position. 15:53:38 subtopic: entailment 15:53:39 Zakim, unmute me 15:53:39 bglimm should no longer be muted 15:53:40 http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/entailment/xmlspec.xml 15:53:46 LeeF: my opinion is that it's a good idea to let the world know what we're doing on this. 15:54:17 LeeF: what would you need to do bglimm before it is ready for review 15:54:18 entailment regimes review: ivanh, Axel 15:54:37 bglimm: should be ready in a day. 15:55:07 Zakim, mute me 15:55:07 bglimm should now be muted 15:55:19 close as no longer valid: 15:55:19 http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/actions/19 15:55:19 close as completed: 15:55:19 http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/actions/82 15:55:19 http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/actions/89 15:55:20 http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/actions/117 15:55:22 http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/actions/142 15:56:04 LeeF: action 19 no longer valid. 15:56:17 LeeF: action 82 has been dealt with today. 15:56:27 LeeF: 89, no longer relevant. 15:56:34 LeeF: 117, greg has done this. 15:56:44 trackbot, close ACTION-19 15:56:44 ACTION-19 Send to the mailing list a few example cases (data, query, results) of SELECT queries in FILTERs closed 15:56:46 trackbot, close ACTION-82 15:56:46 ACTION-82 Start thread on mailing list re: ISSUE-36 closed 15:56:47 trackbot, close ACTION-89 15:56:47 ACTION-89 Go through issues list, figure out status, which need to be discussed in TCs, which have pending actions, which can be resolved closed 15:56:49 trackbot, close ACTION-117 15:56:50 ACTION-117 Incorporate an example for extensibility by the end of the week into SD closed 15:56:51 trackbot, close ACTION-142 15:56:54 ACTION-142 Summarise changes of SD and conclusions from last TC along with open questions. closed 15:56:55 LeeF: 142 is complete, anyone thing they aren't done? 15:56:56 ACTION-153 is also completed 15:57:05 Zakim, mute me 15:57:05 chimezie should now be muted 15:57:05 that's changelog 15:57:14 trackbot, close ACTION-153 15:57:14 ACTION-153 Provide a high-level changelog summarising what has happened since FPWD in entailment closed 15:58:01 LeeF: happy holiday 15:58:06 bye 15:58:06 Bye 15:58:07 -chimezie 15:58:09 -Orri 15:58:10 -Sandro 15:58:11 quit 15:58:11 -Souri 15:58:12 -bglimm 15:58:13 -dcharbon2 15:58:13 -pgearon 15:58:14 -AlexPassant 15:58:14 -kasei 15:58:16 -Prateek 15:58:18 -LeeF 15:58:21 -KjetilK 15:58:22 -AndyS 15:58:24 -MatthewPerry 15:58:32 LukeWM, thanks very much for scribing - can you take care of the minutes the rest of the way? 16:00:42 ivan has joined #sparql 16:03:41 sure 16:03:51 zakim, code? 16:03:51 the conference code is 77277 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), ivan 16:03:56 LeeF, how long can I leave it before I do the minutes? 16:04:01 zakim, dial ivan-voip 16:04:01 ok, ivan; the call is being made 16:04:02 +Ivan 16:04:14 If I do them on Thursday, is that ok? (Big deadline on wed) 16:10:17 -Ivan 16:10:26 ivan has left #sparql 16:12:59 LukeWM, yes, any time before next Tuesday is really fine 16:13:07 good luck with the deadline :) 16:35:01 disconnecting the lone participant, LukeWM, in SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM 16:35:04 SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has ended 16:35:05 Attendees were AndyS, LukeWM, LeeF, MatthewPerry, kasei, dcharbon2, KjetilK, pgearon, +8686528aaaa, bglimm, AlexPassant, Sandro, Orri, +1.216.444.aabb, chimezie, Prateek, Souri, 16:35:08 ... Ivan 16:42:10 Cool, thanks LeeF, I'll need all the luck I can get I think 17:22:36 :-) 18:33:42 Zakim has left #sparql 19:48:16 AndyS has joined #sparql 20:47:54 AndyS has joined #sparql 21:13:23 LukeWM has joined #sparql 21:17:26 LukeWM_ has joined #sparql 23:41:50 karl has joined #sparql