20:00:41 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #svg
20:00:41 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/12/10-svg-irc
20:00:43 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
20:00:43 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #svg
20:00:45 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
20:00:45 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see GA_SVGWG()3:00PM scheduled to start now
20:00:46 <trackbot> Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
20:00:46 <trackbot> Date: 10 December 2009
20:00:50 <Zakim> GA_SVGWG()3:00PM has now started
20:00:51 <Zakim> +Shepazu
20:02:01 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
20:02:10 <ed> Zakim, [IP is me
20:02:10 <Zakim> +ed; got it
20:06:28 <Zakim> +??P12
20:06:50 <anthony> Zakim, ??P12 is me
20:06:50 <Zakim> +anthony; got it
20:11:00 <anthony> Scribe: anthony
20:11:05 <anthony> Chair: Erik
20:11:36 <anthony> Topic: Next Telcon
20:11:45 <anthony> DS: The next Telcon will be the 6th
20:12:16 <anthony> ... no wait
20:12:22 <anthony> .. Monday January 4th 2010
20:12:46 <anthony> AG: I might not be there for that telcon
20:12:54 <anthony> ... flying back from Townsville
20:15:23 <anthony> ACTION: Erik to Email the SVG Working Group list informing members when the next telcon is going to be (after the break)
20:15:23 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2704 - Email the SVG Working Group list informing members when the next telcon is going to be (after the break) [on Erik Dahlström - due 2009-12-17].
20:15:55 <anthony> agenda+ DOM3 Event TransformX/Y
20:16:06 <anthony> agenda+ Collaboration with CSS
20:16:22 <anthony> Topic: Face-to-face
20:16:54 <anthony> DS: We do not have quorum for meeting in Sydney
20:17:03 <anthony> ... so will have to cancel that
20:17:29 <anthony> AG: So when will the next F2F be?
20:17:35 <anthony> ... or will it still be around that time?
20:17:50 <anthony> ED: When is Libre graphics?
20:18:54 <ed> http://libregraphicsmeeting.org/2010/index_static.html
20:18:55 <anthony> DS: AKA LGM, is Belgium
20:19:07 <anthony> ED: 26th to 29th May 2010
20:19:16 <anthony> DS: If we are going to have a meeting before then
20:19:26 <anthony> ... JWatt said Feb works for him
20:19:44 <ed> http://www.fosdem.org/2010/
20:19:57 <anthony> ED: There is also Fosdem
20:20:09 <ed> 6-7 feb 2010
20:20:15 <ed> also brussels
20:20:31 <anthony> ... JWatt didn't want a conflict with
20:20:54 <anthony> DS: So anytime around then works for me
20:21:03 <anthony> ... and I guess we'll be going to Europe
20:21:07 <anthony> ... if we going to have one at all
20:21:35 <anthony> ... I've been thinking about a DOM API summit
20:21:41 <anthony> ... get a bunch of people together
20:21:49 <anthony> ... for a couple of days
20:21:56 <anthony> ... and work out a good API
20:22:03 <anthony> ... get a bunch of requirements
20:22:18 <anthony> ... have people put forward proposals
20:22:32 <anthony> ... then have a discussion and hopefully come up with a model
20:22:39 <anthony> ... that can be used
20:23:01 <anthony> ... some major browser vendors have offered to host it
20:25:12 <anthony> DS: Erik can you fly to the US in Jan/Feb?
20:25:22 <anthony> ... or March?
20:25:29 <anthony> ED: March would be fine
20:25:38 <anthony> DS: It wouldn't be exclusively SVG
20:25:55 <anthony> ... if we had it on the West coast, it might help JWatt
20:26:21 <anthony> ... This might be a fruitful alternative to an SVG F2F
20:26:47 <anthony> AG: Have this as an alternative?
20:27:01 <anthony> DS: Have 2 or 3 days SVG F2F and then a DOM Summit
20:28:15 <anthony> ... Might even have more days than that - 5 days depending how long people can attend for
20:28:40 <anthony> ACTION: Doug to Look into details of a DOM summit/SVG meeting
20:28:40 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2705 - Look into details of a DOM summit/SVG meeting [on Doug Schepers - due 2009-12-17].
20:30:47 <anthony> DS: I guess we can't really decide right now where the next F2F will be
20:31:51 <anthony> Zakim, takeup agendum 2
20:31:51 <Zakim> I don't understand 'takeup agendum 2', anthony
20:32:09 <ed> Zakim, take up agendum 2
20:32:09 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Collaboration with CSS" taken up [from anthony]
20:33:07 <anthony> DS: I spoke with a Designer on the CSS WG - Tab Atkins
20:33:21 <anthony> ... he's the editor on the CSS Gradients specification
20:34:18 <shepazu> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-images/Overview.html
20:34:31 <anthony> ... it's actually CSS Image Values
20:34:37 <anthony> ... we talked about his proposal
20:34:47 <anthony> ... there are some things that seem very funky to me
20:34:52 <anthony> ... with the syntax
20:35:09 <anthony> ... somethings you can do that you can't do with SVG gradients
20:36:46 <anthony> ... We agreed that we want the models as similar as possible
20:36:51 <anthony> ... including the syntax
20:37:15 <anthony> ... how would you guys feel about forming a task force with CSS Working Group
20:37:20 <anthony> ... and working on some things with them
20:37:33 <anthony> ... It would part of the Paint Servers work
20:38:28 <anthony> AG: As long as it can be extend at some point
20:38:42 <anthony> ED: There's also text shadow as well
20:39:12 <anthony> DS: These are some of things we should be collaborating on 
20:39:27 <anthony> ... making sure they have the same syntax will be a real win for authors
20:39:34 <anthony> ... I propose we act on it
20:40:34 <anthony> ... I asked PLH about this
20:42:11 <anthony> ... He supported the idea as long as the deliverable is in the Charter
20:42:21 <anthony> ... a Taskforce is something the Chairs set up
20:42:28 <anthony> ... and had nothing to do with the Team
20:42:41 <anthony> DS: So Erik is it possible to do this
20:42:46 <anthony> ED: Sounds likes a good idea
20:43:14 <anthony> DS: You will have to write to the CSS WG with a formal proposal
20:48:39 <anthony> AG: Just looking at the CSS Gradients
20:48:54 <anthony> ... it looks like the geometry of the gradient is modified according to the bounding box of the gradient
20:49:03 <anthony> ... well at least it can be specified to behave that way
20:49:34 <anthony> ... wouldn't be hard to do in SVG, just need another parameter
20:50:19 <anthony> DS: They can specify a start point and an angle rather than an end point
20:50:24 <anthony> AG: That's also not a bad idea
20:51:26 <anthony> DS: So there's a lot of points that we can collaborate on
20:52:07 <anthony> ... and CSS WG has designers which might be able to help us
20:53:24 <anthony> Zakim, take up agendum 1
20:53:24 <Zakim> agendum 1. "DOM3 Event TransformX/Y" taken up [from anthony]
20:53:41 <anthony> DS: We all no this problem
20:53:48 <anthony> ... if you write a drag and drop script
20:54:03 <anthony> ... as soon as you introduce transforms or a viewBox and you try to drag it
20:54:16 <anthony> ... X/Y are offset from where the mouse pointer is
20:54:21 <anthony> ... and it is really painful
20:54:32 <anthony> ... JWatt proposed putting this into DOM 3 Events
20:54:41 <anthony> ... since CSS has proposed Transforms
20:54:47 <anthony> ... they will run into the same problems
20:54:52 <anthony> ... as well will
20:55:07 <anthony> s/well will/we did/
20:55:18 <anthony> ... I'm proposing for DOM 3 Events
20:55:25 <anthony> ... we have Tx/Ty
20:55:31 <anthony> ... Transform X and Transform Y
20:56:01 <anthony> ... and it unwinds the transformation matrix to get the actual viewPort X and Y
20:56:26 <anthony> ... client X and client Y would be good if they had the right algorithms behind them but they don't
20:57:21 <anthony> AG: If we have to unwind the matrix
20:57:29 <anthony> ... we'd have to get the inverse matrix
20:57:39 <anthony> ... is that right ED?
20:57:54 <anthony> ED: Yes, can't always get the inverse
20:58:16 <ed> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invertible_matrix
20:59:06 <anthony> AG: The idea has merit but there some cases where it will fail
20:59:10 <anthony> DS: Where abouts?
20:59:13 <anthony> ED: Scale 0
20:59:29 <anthony> ... trying to think of other cases
21:00:15 <anthony> DS: If there are predictable cases you could specify don't do calculations on these cases
21:00:42 <anthony> ED: You can do a a cheap calculation to determine if you can get an inverse
21:00:47 <anthony> ... but you may not want to do that all the time
21:00:58 <anthony> DS: I'll show you both the script I'm working on
21:01:04 <anthony> ... and you can give me feedback over email
21:01:47 <anthony> ACTION: Doug to Send in details to the list on DOM 3 Transform X/Y for feedback
21:01:47 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2706 - Send in details to the list on DOM 3 Transform X/Y for feedback [on Doug Schepers - due 2009-12-17].
21:03:09 <ed> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinant
21:03:22 <anthony> ED: If you want the math behind it, you can calculate the determinant
21:03:38 <ed> for a 3x3 matrix: det (A) = aei − afh + bfg − bdi + cdh − ceg.
21:03:43 <anthony> ... which will tell you if the matrix is invertable
21:03:50 <ed> if that's 0 it's noninvertible
21:05:12 <anthony> ED: Are you suggesting to have properties on that?
21:05:27 <ed> s/on that/on the Event interface/
21:05:37 <anthony> DS: Yes, on any event that has mouse event interface
21:05:44 <anthony> ... you'd also have Tx, Ty
21:06:03 <anthony> ... that would be the value in the transformation space of the element
21:06:36 <shepazu> s/on any event that has mouse event interface/on any event that has x, y attributes, like the mouse event interface event types
21:07:42 <anthony> DS: Any place we have transform it would be nice to have the individual attributes
21:07:53 <anthony> ... Translate X, Translate Y, etc
21:08:57 <anthony> ... It would be nice to just have those individual transforms and have a predefined order they are applied in
21:12:01 <anthony> Topic: SVG 1.1
21:12:27 <anthony> ED: Converting Opera internal intersection list tests
21:12:33 <anthony> ... to use the W3C template
21:12:48 <anthony> ... and reviewing the tests that Cameron wrote
21:13:02 <anthony> ... there are two or three tests on my to-do list
21:13:21 <anthony> DS: There's a couple of actions I can do
21:13:25 <anthony> AG: Same
21:13:27 <ed> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/products/1
21:13:44 <anthony> ED: The Java bindings appendix is done
21:14:29 <anthony> ... pending review
21:14:47 <anthony> ... the other one I'm doing is intersection list and clarification for that
21:14:54 <anthony> ... I might be able to take on more actions
21:15:06 <anthony> ... if people are having trouble with
21:15:52 <anthony> ... was thinking of taking ACTION-2676
21:16:43 <anthony> ACTION: Anthony to Send Doug the location of the tables for the integration specification
21:16:43 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2707 - Send Doug the location of the tables for the integration specification [on Anthony Grasso - due 2009-12-17].
21:17:40 <anthony> Happy Holidays everyone!
21:18:16 <Zakim> -ed
21:18:19 <Zakim> -Shepazu
21:18:20 <Zakim> -anthony
21:18:21 <Zakim> GA_SVGWG()3:00PM has ended
21:18:22 <Zakim> Attendees were Shepazu, [IPcaller], ed, anthony
21:24:06 <ChrisL> sorry to miss the call gus, i had a transition call to do, standing in for plh
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21:25:26 <anthony> Zakim, bye
21:25:26 <Zakim> Zakim has left #svg
21:25:32 <anthony> RRSAgent, make minutes
21:25:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/12/10-svg-minutes.html anthony
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