15:57:37 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
15:57:37 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/12/10-html-a11y-irc
15:57:39 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
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15:57:41 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 2119
15:57:41 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
15:57:42 <trackbot> Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
15:57:42 <trackbot> Date: 10 December 2009
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15:58:48 <LeifHS> I will be following the meeting via IRC. Will that count as participation? Or as regret?
15:58:51 <oedipus> Previous: http://www.w3.org/2009/12/03-pf-minutes.html
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15:59:18 <MikeSmith> Zakim, call Mike-Mobile
15:59:18 <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
16:00:23 <MichaelC> zakim, this is 2119
16:00:23 <Zakim> ok, MichaelC; that matches WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM
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16:00:48 <janina> zakim, call janina
16:00:48 <Zakim> ok, janina; the call is being made
16:00:49 <Zakim> +Janina
16:00:56 <Zakim> +??P12
16:01:01 <Ben> zakim, ??P12 is Ben_Caldwell
16:01:01 <Zakim> +Ben_Caldwell; got it
16:01:11 <Zakim> +Matt_May
16:01:21 <Zakim> +SCain
16:01:33 <Zakim> +AllanJ
16:01:43 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
16:01:52 <Zakim> +??P24
16:01:57 <MichaelC> zakim, Microsoft has Paul_Cotton
16:01:57 <Zakim> +Paul_Cotton; got it
16:02:02 <Zakim> + +1.650.253.aabb
16:02:05 <Hixie> Zakim, I am aabb
16:02:05 <Zakim> +Hixie; got it
16:02:08 <Zakim> +Rich_Schwerdtfeger
16:02:11 <Zakim> + +1.558.8.aacc
16:02:12 <Hixie> zakim, mute me
16:02:12 <Zakim> Hixie should now be muted
16:02:39 <MikeSmith> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2009Dec/0050.html
16:02:41 <Zakim> +??P29
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16:02:54 <Stevef> Stevef has joined #html-a11y
16:02:54 <stephane_deschamp> stephane_deschamp has joined #html-a11y
16:03:00 <Zakim> +Cynthia_Shelly
16:03:15 <MichaelC> zakim, ??P29 is Steve_Faulkner
16:03:25 <Zakim> +Steve_Faulkner; got it
16:03:47 <Zakim> +Wendy
16:04:01 <cyns> cyns has joined #html-a11y
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16:05:39 <oedipus> chair: MikeSmith
16:05:39 <eric_carlson> eric_carlson has left #html-a11y
16:06:00 <oedipus> scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita
16:06:04 <oedipus> scribenick: oedipus
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16:06:15 <oedipus> Previous: http://www.w3.org/2009/12/03-pf-minutes.html
16:06:18 <stephane_deschamp> stephane_deschamp has joined #html-a11y
16:06:27 <Zakim> + +1.617.300.aadd - is perhaps WGBH?
16:06:39 <oedipus> Topic: Opening Thoughts and Organization
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16:06:48 <MichaelC> zakim, +1.617 is Geoff_Freed
16:06:48 <Zakim> sorry, MichaelC, I do not recognize a party named '+1.617'
16:06:51 <oedipus> MS: JS, MC, and i have brainstormed on TF priorities
16:07:01 <MichaelC> zakim, WGBH is Geoff_Freed
16:07:01 <Zakim> +Geoff_Freed; got it
16:07:10 <oedipus> MS: agreed that conformance criteria for ARIA attributes should be one of our top priorities
16:07:25 <oedipus> MS: discuss during call, follow up with email discussioni
16:07:36 <oedipus> MS: performance criteria for ARIA in HTML5
16:07:58 <oedipus> MS: propose changes to spec, get agreement in TF, align with TF's assesment about what to do
16:08:04 <MikeSmith> q?
16:08:10 <oedipus> MS: 2 documents to work from
16:08:25 <MikeSmith> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/embedded-content-0.html#annotations-for-assistive-technology-products-aria
16:08:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/12/10-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
16:08:42 <oedipus> MS: first use of ARIA in HTML5
16:08:56 <oedipus> MS: states what conformance criteria for ARIA should be
16:09:22 <MikeSmith> http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/misc/ARIA/html5-elements1.html
16:09:24 <cyns> related document:  http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-implementation/
16:09:34 <oedipus> MS: second is SteveFaulkner's comparison
16:09:38 <cyns> discussess mappings from aria to platform APIs
16:10:01 <oedipus> MS: saw http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=toQHOF3-IiYACgHX9bs2GrA&single=true&gid=0&output=html but not directly related to HTML5
16:10:19 <oedipus> CS: is related to HTML5 - have to ensure compatibility and coordinate drafts
16:10:24 <Stevef> http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=toQHOF3-IiYACgHX9bs2GrA&single=true&gid=0&output=html
16:10:30 <Stevef> q+
16:10:36 <oedipus> MS: particular issue of HTML use of ARIA - only change can effect in HTML WG
16:10:47 <oedipus> MS: how ARIA integrated into other MLs out of scope for this TF
16:10:52 <MikeSmith> ack Stevef 
16:11:12 <oedipus> SF: first document doesn't actually help much at all; that's why i created the google spreadsheet at http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=toQHOF3-IiYACgHX9bs2GrA&single=true&gid=0&output=html
16:11:25 <oedipus> SF: Cyns and i have been working on it since prior to TPAC 2009
16:12:01 <oedipus> SF: contains much more useful notes and suggestions and thoughts and change proposals; not complete, but more annotated and easier to follow; incorporate input from TPAC break-out session
16:12:21 <oedipus> MS: spreadsheet superseeds documents i cited?
16:12:26 <oedipus> SF: as per HTML5, yes
16:12:42 <oedipus> MS: compare spreadsheet to spec
16:12:53 <oedipus> MS: spreadsheet not been formally agreed upon by TF
16:13:35 <oedipus> CS: did have consensus of those at TPAC for "override" mechanism with ability of specific ARIA roles can and should trump HTML5 native semantics
16:13:50 <oedipus> CS: makes sense to override link role="widget" - 
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16:13:57 <oedipus> CS: trying to work through mash-up issues
16:14:08 <oedipus> CS: thought we had consensus that this was right approach
16:14:13 <Hixie> i don't think it really makes sense to override a link with role=button, personally
16:14:17 <oedipus> SF: amongst people at TPAC 2009, yeah
16:14:18 <Hixie> but i could see that other ones would make sense
16:14:23 <Hixie> (e.g. the ones in html5 already)
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16:14:52 <MikeSmith> q?
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16:16:26 <paulc> ok
16:16:52 <stephane_deschamp> stephane_deschamp has joined #html-a11y
16:17:20 <MikeSmith> q?
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16:17:55 <MikeSmith> q+ to say to Hixie that I can't see that the current HTML5 spec text actually prohibits a/@role=button
16:18:22 <Hixie> MikeSmith, it's the first thing in the table of the aria section
16:18:46 <richardschwerdtfe> scribe: Rich
16:19:15 <richardschwerdtfe> Cynhthia: Not all widgets can override all other widgets
16:19:24 <richardschwerdtfe> Cynthia: we provided groupings
16:19:47 <richardschwerdtfe> Cynthia: there are some native roles and aria roles that are compatible and can override and we needed to find out when
16:19:58 <richardschwerdtfe> Cynthia: that had concensus at TPAC
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16:20:10 <richardschwerdtfe> Cynthia: anyone else who was there?
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16:20:40 <richardschwerdtfe> scribe oeddipus
16:20:49 <richardschwerdtfe> scribe: oeddipus
16:21:37 <oeddie> MS: currently have 2 tables - 1 lists elements that have strong native semantics, and implied ARIA semantics - don't see that all from first table only have role listed there and cannot be overrwritten
16:21:48 <oeddie> MS: second table, can be overridden
16:22:10 <oeddie> MS: second says what role should be
16:22:30 <oeddie> MS: don't have agreement among people involved in discussion that hixie is correct 
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16:22:40 <oeddie> MS: A element - role currently limited to "link"
16:23:01 <oeddie> MS: discussed cases where people use role="button" in wild onto A
16:23:45 <MikeSmith> q?
16:23:51 <oeddie> MS: need specific case resolutions - have to go through spec and point out specifically where need / want changes to it
16:23:52 <oeddie> MS: changes to 2 tables or addition to 2 tables
16:24:07 <oeddie> CS: what is in the spreadsheet is everything in 2 tables - what overrides what ARIA roles makes sense 
16:24:25 <oeddie> SF: best way forward to put in change request for each line or row of table?
16:24:27 <oeddie> MS: no
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16:24:31 <oeddie> MS: that would be overkill
16:24:38 <oeddie> MS: don't have huge amount of disagreement
16:25:09 <Hixie> seems reasonable
16:25:25 <oeddie> MS: probably could bring this back to being specific request - open as issue in bugzilla, list changes, point to URI with change proposal, hixie can then review and comment upon it and then discuss with hixie - can happen on A11y TF list
16:26:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/12/10-html-a11y-minutes.html oeddie
16:27:47 <Hixie> you want to make an <address> into a widget? o_O
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16:29:26 <Hixie> personally i wouldn't be able to study them in detail enough to respond on a call, and would much rather have more time to study them
16:29:52 <kliehm> @hixie +1
16:30:07 <richardschwerdtfe> +1
16:30:18 <richardschwerdtfe> scribe: Rich
16:30:26 <Stevef> hixie: i don't but if people do then its preferable that the widget is identified
16:30:41 <Hixie> seems better that if people do they stop doing it :-)
16:30:42 <richardschwerdtfe> Mike: since we have a spreadsheet it would be best to go through the spreadsheet. 
16:31:07 <richardschwerdtfe> Steve: I think that people generally agree about the approach
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16:31:24 <richardschwerdtfe> Steve: the majority of the possible changes could be contentious
16:31:43 <richardschwerdtfe> Steve: I would like to have some take on the widget controls
16:32:02 <richardschwerdtfe> Steve: some people override them to look like the would in a supporting browser
16:32:15 <richardschwerdtfe> Steve: currently in the spec. it says you can't do this.
16:32:30 <richardschwerdtfe> Cynthia: The right thing may be for one of us to write the general approach in a note.
16:32:50 <richardschwerdtfe> Mike: exactly, that is one action we should assign as a result of the call
16:33:00 <Stevef> hixie: yes but they won't, if you can persuade them please do
16:33:03 <Hixie> personally i think the general approach i've heard described seems reasonable, but i get the feeling many of the details are less obviously right, fwiw
16:33:18 <Hixie> Stevef, why can you convince them to use aria but not to use <div> instead of <address>?
16:33:30 <richardschwerdtfe> Action: Cynthia write overall approach HTML support of ARIA
16:33:30 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1 - Write overall approach HTML support of ARIA [on Cynthia Shelly - due 2009-12-17].
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16:33:53 <richardschwerdtfe> Mike: so that is step number one and that will help
16:34:24 <richardschwerdtfe> Mike: I still think it is useful for it to be documented for the conformance criteria
16:34:51 <richardschwerdtfe> Mike: We will have remaining some specific instances in which we have disagreement as to what the specification should say
16:35:25 <richardschwerdtfe> Mike: people agreed with the general approach (<a>) but not that specific case
16:35:49 <richardschwerdtfe> Mike: not a complete change proposal but a list of what should be affected in the change to the current HTML 5 specification
16:36:08 <richardschwerdtfe> Mike: it is not clear from the spreadsheet as to what changes should be made to the specification.
16:36:36 <richardschwerdtfe> Cynthia: so there are two efforts: finish the change proposal and outline spec. ready changes
16:36:54 <richardschwerdtfe> Cynthia: this could be another column in the speadsheet.
16:36:57 <richardschwerdtfe> Mike: yeah
16:37:14 <richardschwerdtfe> Cynthia: the other thing would be to create the two tables
16:37:19 <Hixie> deltas are what matter in terms of reviewing the changes, imho
16:37:29 <MikeSmith> q+
16:37:40 <richardschwerdtfe> Cynthia: we need to figure out the best way to institute the changes
16:37:47 <MikeSmith> ack MikeSmith 
16:37:47 <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to say to Hixie that I can't see that the current HTML5 spec text actually prohibits a/@role=button and to 
16:38:16 <MikeSmith> ack Gregory
16:38:30 <richardschwerdtfe> Gregory: Stuffing so much information into tables is not the best solution for low vison users. Especially due to scrolling
16:38:58 <richardschwerdtfe> Cynthia: to gregory: let's figure out a way to present the information
16:39:25 <Stevef> hixie: as this is hypothetical its difficult to argue why one could be convinced, of one or the other 
16:39:58 <Hixie> Seems like people who care about accessibility enough to use aria would also care enough to do the right thing in the first place
16:40:03 <Hixie> which isn't to say they wouldn't use ARIA
16:40:14 <Hixie> but ARIA would make more sense with <div>s than with just the wrong HTML element in the first place
16:40:17 <richardschwerdtfe> Mike: what I would like to propose is that someone on the call today perform an action item that describes in prose what needs to be made to the specification.
16:40:53 <Stevef> Hixie: it may well not about caring it may well be about a business decision
16:41:17 <Hixie> i don't see how a business decision would say anything about using <address> or <div>
16:41:30 <richardschwerdtfe> Mike: we need consensus by the task force that reflects consensus
16:41:55 <richardschwerdtfe> Cynthia: So, you want the discussion to be a change proposal vs. a spreadsheet change
16:43:00 <Hixie> q+
16:43:08 <Hixie> q-
16:43:36 <Hixie> i don't think we need a whole change proposal initially -- just a list of what the requested changes are, and why
16:43:45 <Hixie> so that people can review the proposed changes
16:43:52 <Hixie> (for me the spreadsheet is fine)
16:44:07 <Hixie> (it just needs to be a bit less ambiguous about what is being proposed)
16:44:08 <richardschwerdtfe> Mike: we need to spread out the responsibilities
16:44:39 <Stevef> no but a business decision may be do the least needed adding an attribute could be easier than changing an element
16:45:03 <richardschwerdtfe> Mike: it is a just a few sentences to describe where the changes need to be made
16:45:31 <Hixie> Stevef: that line of argumentation suggests we shouldn't have any sort of conformance criteria, just allow everything
16:45:34 <MikeSmith> q?
16:45:48 <richardschwerdtfe> Mike: to gregory how long to do this?
16:45:59 <richardschwerdtfe> Gregory: week to 2 weeks
16:47:11 <richardschwerdtfe> Rich: I think end of January - this gives people time to review the spreadsheet, send in comments, and submit them in. Tag them with ARIA.
16:47:37 <richardschwerdtfe> Michael: I will put this in an email message. but have people submit comments with ARIA in the subject line
16:47:58 <richardschwerdtfe> Michael: in the mean time you can get started on the change document
16:49:08 <richardschwerdtfe> ACTION: Gregory Deliver draft of change proposal for ARIA additions to HTML 5 by 12/24/p9
16:49:08 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2 - Deliver draft of change proposal for ARIA additions to HTML 5 by 12/24/p9 [on Gregory Rosmaita - due 2009-12-17].
16:49:09 <Stevef> hixie: if developers are allowed without conformance constraints to add javascript based interaction to any element that effectively turns the element into a widget, then either the conformance constarints need to be tightened up for this or developers need to be able to add ||ARIA to explain these interactions to AT users
16:49:52 <Hixie> Stevef: agreed. so we shouldn't allow that. and html5 doesn't (it says you must use the appropriate element and must use elements according to their meaning).
16:50:06 <richardschwerdtfe> Rich:
16:50:08 <MikeSmith> q?
16:50:09 <richardschwerdtfe> Rich: yes
16:50:22 <richardschwerdtfe> Michael: that is all we need to do on the call today
16:50:36 <Stevef> hixie: yes, but it is meaningless as there is no check for it
16:50:43 <richardschwerdtfe> Michael: We need to follow up with a status report on the other subgroups
16:51:02 <richardschwerdtfe> Michael: we don't have new information from the media video task force
16:51:28 <Hixie> Stevef: it's hard to check for that, but there is one check -- if they use aria in a way that conflicts the element's meaning, we can detect that and then we know there's a problem, and we should report it ("wrong element, for buttons use <button>" for example)
16:52:45 <Stevef> hixie:but aria use here is not the problem and aria should not be used as a flag, taking the aria away would make the element less understandable and usable for the AT user
16:52:59 <richardschwerdtfe> Rich:  Investigating use of media querries to  be used to select alternative content for canvas. there is general agreement to use a backing dom with aria support to support canvas accessibility
16:53:23 <Hixie> stevef: we should never have a validator say that hte author should take the aria away, i agree. The spec is clear about that (it's one of the few UI requirements, in fact)
16:53:35 <richardschwerdtfe> Rich: to set up a meeting for canvas
16:53:44 <Hixie> Stevef: that doesn't mean we can't use it as a flag though
16:53:52 <richardschwerdtfe> MikeSmith: any other issues?
16:54:19 <richardschwerdtfe> MikeSmith: video caption and canvas are the other two big accessibility items
16:54:36 <richardschwerdtfe> MikeSmith: the summary discussions are continuing
16:55:04 <richardschwerdtfe> Gregory: we can put developing bugs into bugzilla
16:55:24 <Stevef> Hixie: so would you predcit that using ARIA as a flag will lead  developers using more appropaite elements or removing the aria?
16:55:42 <richardschwerdtfe> Gregory: the command element does not provide a descriptor and I plan to log a bug if that is accepted by the task force
16:55:55 <Hixie> Stevef: if the error message tells them to use a better element, i think that's what they'd do
16:56:00 <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Main_Page#Bug_Collection_.26_Development
16:56:26 <richardschwerdtfe> MikeSmith: Does the group have anything to do with this
16:56:50 <richardschwerdtfe> Rich: are you saying the command the description of the element
16:57:04 <Stevef> hixie: i have less optimism for that outcome
16:57:22 <Hixie> re <command>, feel free to file a bug and i'll look at it
16:58:13 <richardschwerdtfe> Gregory: it supports title but that that has problems. 
16:58:28 <richardschwerdtfe> Gregory: there is ambiguity
16:59:01 <richardschwerdtfe> MikeSmith: We need to discuss this but not on the task force mailing list just now
16:59:22 <Zakim> -Mike
16:59:35 <MikeSmith> Zakim, call Mike-Mobile
16:59:35 <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
16:59:37 <Zakim> +Mike
16:59:40 <richardschwerdtfe> MikeSmith: place on bugzilla and discuss in HTML community list. If your issue is not addressed then bring back here
17:00:07 <MikeSmith> q?
17:00:13 <richardschwerdtfe> MikeSmith: Any other business?
17:00:36 <richardschwerdtfe> MikeSmith: We are going to have the call next week at the same time. Anyone want to scribe next week?
17:00:50 <jongund> jongund has left #html-a11y
17:00:54 <richardschwerdtfe> SteveF: I will scribe next week
17:01:00 <richardschwerdtfe> Janina: I will chair next week
17:01:05 <richardschwerdtfe> MikeSmith: we are done for today.
17:01:10 <Zakim> -Jon_Gunderson
17:01:16 <richardschwerdtfe> Zakim, bye
17:01:19 <Zakim> -Matt_May
17:01:22 <Zakim> -Cynthia_Shelly
17:01:25 <Zakim> -SCain
17:01:27 <Zakim> -Geoff_Freed
17:01:29 <Zakim> -Steve_Faulkner
17:01:31 <richardschwerdtfe> RSSAgent, draft minutes
17:01:31 <Zakim> -Wendy
17:01:37 <Zakim> Zakim has left #html-a11y
17:01:40 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were +0207388aaaa, Gregory_Rosmaita, Mike, Cooper, Eric_Carlson, kliehm, Marco_Ranon, Janina, Ben_Caldwell, Matt_May, SCain, AllanJ,
17:01:42 <Zakim> ... Paul_Cotton, +1.650.253.aabb, Hixie, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Jon_Gunderson, +1.558.8.aacc, Cynthia_Shelly, Stéphane_Deschamps, Steve_Faulkner, Wendy, +1.617.300.aadd, Geoff_Freed
17:01:51 <AllanJ> AllanJ has left #html-a11y
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17:02:08 <richardschwerdtfe> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:02:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/12/10-html-a11y-minutes.html richardschwerdtfe
17:02:54 <Laura> Standing regrets for Gez and Laura.
17:03:00 <Laura> grets+ Gez
17:03:07 <Laura> regrets+ Gez
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17:03:14 <Laura> regrets+ Laura
17:05:23 <Laura> Laura has left #html-a11y
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