IRC log of swxg on 2009-12-09

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:05:28 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #swxg
16:05:28 [RRSAgent]
logging to
16:05:30 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
16:05:32 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 7994
16:05:32 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see INC_SWXG()11:00AM scheduled to start 5 minutes ago
16:05:33 [trackbot]
Meeting: Social Web Incubator Group Teleconference
16:05:33 [trackbot]
Date: 09 December 2009
16:05:36 [hhalpin]
chair: danbri
16:05:40 [mischat]
no one is chatting bblfish
16:05:42 [tinkster]
Nobody talking on phone.
16:05:46 [danbri]
danbri: i propose skipping all admin and going straight to henry
16:05:48 [bblfish]
ok :-)
16:05:51 [danbri]
hearing no objections ...
16:05:55 [hhalpin]
who is scribing?
16:06:03 [mischat]
i can scribe
16:06:11 [danbri]
yes please!
16:06:27 [danbri]
what's the script notation to say
16:06:31 [danbri]
scribe: mischat
16:06:32 [hhalpin]
scribe: mischat
16:06:35 [danbri]
16:06:37 [bblfish]
ok, if people want they can download a presentation I have made recently
16:07:01 [tinkster]
This will be useful, or just "if people want"?
16:07:01 [cperey]
which one?
16:07:05 [bblfish]
(it's 45MB, so just start now. I won't go through all of it, but it will make things easier)
16:07:08 [Zakim]
16:07:15 [bblfish]
if you don't have keynote, take the pdf
16:07:16 [rreck]
zakim, ??P18 is me
16:07:16 [Zakim]
+rreck; got it
16:07:21 [rreck]
zakim, mute me
16:07:21 [Zakim]
rreck should now be muted
16:07:25 [rreck]
16:07:25 [mischat]
16:07:29 [tinkster]
16:08:00 [tinkster]
+1 skip
16:08:06 [mischat]
any actions which people want to talk about ?
16:08:07 [danbri]
danbri proposing skip admin
16:08:12 [danbri]
16:08:23 [Zakim]
16:08:32 [danbri]
Henry Story
16:08:33 [danbri]
16:08:35 [MacTed]
Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
16:08:35 [Zakim]
+MacTed; got it
16:08:35 [mischat]
henry story to talk about foaf+ssl
16:08:37 [petef]
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16:08:38 [MacTed]
Zakim, mute me
16:08:38 [Zakim]
MacTed should now be muted
16:08:41 [bblfish]
16:08:45 [mischat]
16:09:23 [Zakim]
16:09:27 [mischat]
henry works for Sun Mircosystems, and has been travelling around europe talking about distributed social networks
16:09:33 [danbri]
2005 - ?
16:10:13 [cperey]
16:10:22 [mischat]
semantic web helps us solve a problem which is required to have a distributed social network
16:11:09 [mischat]
issues with single sites such as facebook, where you have to log in, and then add all your friends one by one
16:11:18 [mischat]
there are loads of social networks about
16:11:46 [mischat]
recreating your social graph on every SNS is tedious and causes problems
16:12:14 [mischat]
such issues, and the notion of ownership of data has led to the data-portablity movement
16:12:44 [mischat]
scoble had an issue where he got kicked out of his social network, after attempting to remove all of this data
16:13:06 [mischat]
users don't own the data they upload to social networks
16:14:03 [mischat]
social graph, and the issue that you only have access to your own social graph, but the service providers have a view of everyones' social graph
16:14:38 [mischat]
companies with secrets cant use existing social networks, re: data ownership problems
16:15:18 [mischat]
there is a big brother privacy issue, we may not want people to look at what you are doing on a given social networking start
16:15:28 [danbri]
(2000 even)
16:15:36 [mischat]
danbri and libby started foaf in 2000 :)
16:15:40 [danbri]
timbl: 1989!
16:15:56 [mischat]
foaf project enables a distributed social network
16:15:59 [danbri]
(I have a pile of foaf slides here )
16:16:44 [mischat]
current social networks are really popular, and they have good working UIs, and have engaged users
16:16:51 [danbri]
for timbl, see The "Personal Skills Inventory". "Personal skills and experience are just the sort of thing which need hypertext flexibility. People can be linked to projects they have worked on, which in turn can be linked to particular machines, programming languages, etc. "
16:17:09 [danbri]
(ie. this use case was envisaged in the original design for the Web itself)
16:17:18 [mischat]
foaf and the semantic web, allows for data to be linked together between different sites
16:17:27 [mischat]
foaf allows for people to be linked together
16:17:33 [mischat]
people get given a URI
16:17:42 [mischat]
a foaf:Person URI
16:17:53 [danbri]
16:18:10 [mischat]
these URIs give you the ability to produce a global namespace for people
16:18:32 [mischat]
semantic web, builds on logic
16:18:46 [mischat]
allows for sentences to be built about things in the world
16:19:08 [mischat]
semantic web, mathematics of merging and mapping information
16:19:39 [mischat]
in order to show how foaf works, and how the Semantic Web can work, henry built a foaf-based Address book
16:20:08 [mischat]
this address-book allows for webpages to dragged and dropped into the address book app
16:20:11 [mischat]
and it grabs your foaf file
16:20:24 [Zakim]
16:20:47 [mischat]
and it then populates your address book with information about the person just added to your address
16:20:56 [pchampin]
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16:21:30 [Zakim]
16:21:45 [mischat]
the address book makes http requests to people's foaf files, and extracts information about that person and adds this information into your address book
16:22:00 [melvster]
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16:22:12 [danbri]
(public's good and all, but not everyone wants to share everything :)
16:22:14 [mischat]
the problem people had with the Address Book was that it required that all your information be in public foaf files
16:22:58 [Zakim]
16:23:00 [mischat]
foaf gives us data-ownership
16:23:05 [mischat]
people can host their own info
16:23:22 [mischat]
it doesn't solve the action creation complexity problem
16:23:29 [melvster]
zakim, ??P32 is me
16:23:29 [Zakim]
+melvster; got it
16:23:43 [mischat]
it solves a bunch of problem by not touching them, i.e. privacy
16:24:28 [mischat]
henry has found that in order to support privacy
16:24:35 [danbri]
(we had some old experiments with PGP ... ... but it was limited to the tiny subset of us who could remember their PGP / GPG passwords and how to use them :)
16:24:38 [mischat]
there was a need to implement a form of authentication
16:24:42 [mischat]
and identification
16:24:58 [mischat]
for the last 20 years we have relied on usernames and password
16:25:31 [mischat]
but imagine a distributed social network, where people host their own data, you would have to hold accounts with usernames and passwords on all of your friends servers
16:25:36 [mischat]
this just wouldn't work
16:25:39 [mischat]
then came openid
16:25:52 [mischat]
openid gave each person a global identifier or a URI
16:26:00 [danbri]
( slide 53 = openid )
16:26:11 [mischat]
the protocol is a tad complicated
16:26:41 [mischat]
there is a lot of back and forwarding when doing an openid login
16:27:12 [mischat]
attribute exchange of openid is not restful
16:27:26 [mischat]
which makes it hard to link to information
16:28:05 [mischat]
there are also known security issues with openid ?
16:28:28 [mischat]
openid is very much compatible with the foaf+ssl work
16:29:00 [mischat]
foaf+ssl uses the client-certificate infrastructure built into modern web-browsers
16:29:05 [mischat]
it is built on top of https
16:29:09 [mischat]
16:29:10 [bblfish]
16:29:28 [mischat]
you can create your own certificate and your own foaf file
16:29:38 [danbri]
(is down right now?)
16:29:38 [AnitaD]
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16:29:45 [mischat]
melvster: ^^ ?
16:29:51 [petef]
seems to be down for me
16:29:54 [melvster]
sorry yes
16:29:59 [mischat]
it works in FF, opera , safari
16:30:00 [melvster]
appears down at this second
16:30:01 [mischat]
but not IE
16:30:06 [danbri]
fixable? :)
16:30:14 [melvster]
im looking ...
16:30:37 [mischat]
slide 57 has a UML diagram
16:30:39 [tinkster]
Generating keys in IE requires ActiveX and none of us have been bothered to look at that yet.
16:30:47 [MacTed]
16:30:53 [mischat]
yay to links
16:30:54 [bblfish]
16:31:15 [mischat]
links to most of the topics covered can be found on the esw wiki
16:31:16 [mischat]
16:31:29 [bblfish]
here the protocol description
16:31:31 [petef]
slide 57 = 59 = 62 ?
16:32:16 [tinkster]
slide 61
16:32:16 [mischat]
once you have created your certificate, you can log in to a foaf+ssl enabled site by simply presenting your cert to the site
16:32:34 [mischat]
in order to attach a URI to a certificate
16:33:01 [mischat]
foaf+ssl has used a property in the X.509 header
16:33:05 [mischat]
property X?
16:33:19 [mischat]
this property should point to your foaf file
16:33:22 [tinkster]
(And Peter Williams also said that we're using it pretty much how it should be used.)
16:33:26 [danbri]
' X509v3 Subject Alternative Name:'
16:33:30 [mischat]
16:33:41 [bblfish]
16:34:05 [mischat]
and if foaf file has the public key of the cert in question, then the cert is said to be associated to the foaf:Person URI
16:34:13 [melvster]
very sorry guys ... seems to be an ISP issue with ... trying to trace the issue ...
16:34:18 [mischat]
which is now being called a WebId
16:35:13 [mischat]
so whoever owns the private key of the public key stated in the foaf file is said to be the person identified in the X.509 certificate
16:35:17 [danbri]
q+ to ask about attacks when not https
16:35:58 [caribou]
16:36:22 [caribou]
-> WebID
16:36:59 [mischat]
danbri asks about the level of security in foaf+ssl and the robustness of the desig
16:37:19 [danbri]
esp re first step, where you're loading a public foaf file
16:37:34 [danbri]
... how much of a difference do we care re https vs http URIs for the public files
16:38:01 [mischat]
http resource can be made subject to man in the middle attack
16:38:22 [mischat]
so for more security critical applications one should use an https WebId
16:38:52 [danbri]
wondering role for xmldsig-signed markup here ...
16:38:56 [tinkster]
Use FOAF+SSL to log into a social network, but not into a bank.
16:39:03 [MacTed]
since is down ... worth noting that this has all been built into Virtuoso & OpenLink Data Spaces ...
16:39:03 [MacTed]
docs -- -- can be followed against or (which servers are up and running) or you can put up your own pretty quickly.
16:39:04 [bblfish]
16:39:27 [danbri]
tinkster, that's a nice first step towards getting mother maiden names, birthdays etc...
16:39:50 [mischat]
using the WOT
16:40:08 [bblfish]
16:40:36 [mischat]
back in the day danbri was playing with the signed foaf files with pgp
16:41:02 [mischat]
but the issue was that not that many people used pgp
16:41:20 [mischat]
danbri asked if henry thought it was a good idea to revisit such things
16:41:37 [mischat]
henry started talking about signing sub-graphs in RDF
16:42:07 [mischat]
i don't understand why you would want to sign a sub-grapg
16:42:11 [mischat]
16:42:15 [tinkster]
J Carroll paper mentioned by danbri -
16:42:54 [mischat]
digitally signing rdf :
16:43:10 [danbri]
danbri: 2 scenarios ... user signs locally and pushes the result up to server (atompub etc); or else the host signs, so even if they don't use ssl everywhere, you could know livejournal/hi5 etc's pubkey and be sure the file wasn't interfered with
16:43:13 [mischat]
foaf+ssl makes it easy to have multiple certs
16:43:48 [mischat]
you can also easily invalidate a cert if you loose a machine
16:44:15 [mischat]
using pgp, if you loose your private key, you will have to ask people to re-sign your key
16:44:34 [mischat]
16:45:10 [mischat]
danbri proposes a method of pushing data signed data via atom-pub or similar to a site such as facebook
16:45:25 [danbri]
(with eg garlik as a file-signing intermediary ...)
16:46:19 [mischat]
our foaf validator, can tell you if your foaf file is signed properly
16:46:44 [mischat]
but yes, signing a foaf file for someone else does sound interesting
16:46:47 [danbri]
(I'm not gonna hold my breath waiting for dns to be secured :)
16:47:18 [danbri]
mischa, ... just to say 'garlik saw this, and got it from the party whose openid x checked out...' ... but not necc to vouch for its contents
16:47:39 [danbri]
16:47:41 [danbri]
ack danbri
16:47:41 [Zakim]
danbri, you wanted to ask about attacks when not https
16:47:50 [mischat]
it would be nice to see if there was a method in the X.509 external where you could say only send information to a party if it is signed ?
16:47:50 [tinkster]
16:47:51 [danbri]
16:48:01 [danbri]
16:48:04 [mischat]
understood danbri
16:48:33 [mischat] allows you to use an openid login form
16:48:35 [danbri]
(garlik or other biz-s could also fact check specific claims, like workplaceHomepage ... )
16:48:44 [melvster]
AX: not yet programmed
16:48:51 [melvster]
sreg works
16:49:06 [bblfish]
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16:49:17 [mischat] allows you to use your WebID, and your foaf+ssl cert to log in openid providers
16:49:45 [mischat]
one important piece which is yet to be solved, that is content negotiation on foaf files
16:50:42 [mischat]
so in openid you can decide which bits of personal information you want to send to a service provider
16:50:54 [mischat]
there is no solution as of yet in the foaf+ssl world
16:51:17 [melvster] appears to be back ... ?
16:51:29 [mischat]
yup it is melvster
16:51:35 [bblfish]
16:51:39 [bblfish]
16:52:24 [mischat]
this is a restful implementation of how you may want to interact with a restful web service using your foaf+ssl WebID
16:53:00 [mischat]
isn't this a similar example as presented in the openid spec
16:53:13 [mischat]
16:53:14 [mischat]
16:53:20 [mischat]
you are right
16:53:33 [danbri]
oauth use photo sites as their intro use case
16:53:44 [melvster]
it's actually closer to oauth WRAP (the newer version) than oauth
16:54:06 [mischat]
i recall the oauth example in the spec uses the photo service
16:55:20 [mischat]
foaf+ssl wants to be make us of linked data, semantic web, RDF.
16:56:17 [mischat]
in the future we can imagine a world where every user has their own website
16:56:22 [danbri]
sounds like :)
16:56:25 [mischat]
16:56:34 [mischat]
or user pages
16:56:39 [danbri]
see also
16:57:29 [bblfish]
16:57:43 [danbri]
anyone have questions for henry?
16:57:48 [mischat]
16:58:09 [bblfish]
16:58:23 [danbri]
anyone with questions, use "q+ to ask about blahblah" here please
16:58:43 [danbri]
q+ to ask about feedback you've had, in your tours/talks
16:58:59 [danbri]
16:59:02 [bblfish]
16:59:46 [mischat]
people should join the foaf-protocol mailing list
17:00:07 [cperey]
me too, bye
17:00:09 [Zakim]
17:00:16 [mischat]
zakim, unmute me
17:00:16 [Zakim]
mischat should no longer be muted
17:00:18 [Zakim]
17:00:32 [danbri]
mischa: with foaf+ssl you need something inside your browser ...
17:00:43 [danbri]
... do you think we're moving to a world where ppl carry their browser around with them
17:00:52 [danbri]
... or they use machines from anywhere, unless you brin your cert
17:01:06 [danbri]
bblfish: i was a bit worried initially re signing others' foaf files with my pubkey
17:01:16 [danbri]
ppl can selfsign their certs, ... very easy to create new certs, ...
17:01:36 [danbri] should let you get a list of certs you have, ... click on them and cancel, ... to create one for 10 mins (eg. a net cafe), ...
17:01:57 [danbri]
... also another tech, USB cards, which can be linked with firefox so you can put your key on usb card, they'll do the encryption
17:02:05 [danbri]
without privkey being shared anywhere
17:02:25 [danbri]
(missed detail)
17:02:40 [danbri]
bblfish: by basing on tls/ssl, we build on existing expertise
17:02:51 [danbri]
... they relied a bit too much on ldap data structures
17:02:57 [danbri]
so too much pre-web design
17:03:04 [Zakim]
17:03:08 [danbri]
lacking web-style flexibility/ namespaces
17:03:20 [danbri]
ldap doesn't allow you to have a global directory
17:03:28 [tinkster]
Also, too much emphasis on top-down certificate signing, rather than self-signed.
17:03:29 [danbri]
(x500 did, kinda? -danbri)
17:03:39 [danbri]
17:03:52 [mischat]
zakim, mute me
17:03:52 [Zakim]
mischat should now be muted
17:04:02 [danbri]
bblfish: so we're supplying a missing piece to make the most of ssl
17:04:06 [danbri]
ack danbri
17:04:06 [Zakim]
danbri, you wanted to ask about feedback you've had, in your tours/talks
17:04:16 [petef]
have to duck out now, thanks Henry.
17:04:22 [Zakim]
17:04:26 [petef]
petef has left #swxg
17:04:31 [mischat]
danbri askes about the feedback on your tour, and your priorities for the upcoming months
17:04:31 [danbri]
bblfish: similar questions come up
17:04:46 [mischat]
mainly security based questions
17:04:51 [danbri]
re security, ... was pleased that specialists seemed relatively untroubled by the design
17:05:06 [mischat]
services such as
17:05:14 [danbri]
( is back btw :)
17:05:26 [mischat]
and have really helped when trying to see foaf+ssl
17:05:36 [mischat]
q+ re: how important foaf is in foaf+ssl?
17:06:01 [mischat]
foaf+ssl is seen as a practical way of showing the semantic web working
17:06:11 [mischat]
in a real world context that is a social networking application
17:06:33 [mischat]
drupal dev's found it an easy way into Semantic web tech
17:06:48 [mischat]
henry thinks we need more use cases for such technology
17:07:12 [tinkster]
bblfish, ARC2's SPARQL is pretty good in my experience, but can only operate on in-database (MySQL-only in fact) triple stores; not in-memory.
17:07:33 [mischat]
we need to have people using it, so that we can identify issues with the foaf+ssl proposition
17:07:41 [mischat]
17:08:47 [mischat]
the european tour was very useful, giving talks about the work really helped. Most talks at barcamps, and non-traditional conferences, i.e. not that academic
17:08:53 [mischat]
17:09:28 [mischat]
henry would love the swxg to support foaf+ssl
17:09:57 [mischat]
17:10:05 [mischat]
zakim, unmute me
17:10:05 [Zakim]
mischat should no longer be muted
17:10:10 [mischat]
17:10:34 [danbri]
I logged into Jyte: * Signed in as
17:11:06 [tinkster]
RDF vCard would be nearly as useful.
17:11:10 [mischat]
no offense to danbri
17:11:15 [danbri]
yeah, it's a fair question
17:11:19 [danbri]
foaf was designed to be optional!
17:11:23 [mischat]
zakim, mute me
17:11:23 [Zakim]
mischat should now be muted
17:11:30 [danbri]
original name was rdfweb ... foaf was just the 'utility vocab'
17:11:51 [danbri]
17:11:52 [mischat]
question regarding whether foaf was necessary in the foaf+ssl
17:12:17 [tinkster]
DNA checksum will be useful when we create FOAF+Blood authentication.
17:12:28 [mischat]
semantic web tech allows you to add more namespaces
17:12:30 [danbri]
'please spit on the screen'
17:12:40 [danbri]
'no, down a bit...'
17:12:51 [mischat]
allowing you add more information to your foaf file, as ontologies come about
17:12:52 [MacTed]
GoodRelations - what do you need, what do you have...
17:13:34 [mischat]
danbri asked which properties you need to implement a foaf+ssl
17:13:35 [Zakim]
17:13:35 [mischat]
17:13:40 [danbri]
danbri: exactly which properties (and classes) are needed when implementing a foaf+ssl system
17:13:45 [tinkster]
cert:identity, rsa:public_exponent, rsa:modulus, cert:hex, cert:decimal.
17:14:06 [mischat]
tinkster: a link to a cert:?
17:14:11 [danbri]
so those 2 namespaces timbl dropped onto
17:14:40 [mischat]
bblfish: WedID
17:14:41 [tinkster]
No, the cert links to the FOAF file. The FOAF file doesn't need to link to the cert (it describes it via those properties).
17:14:42 [mischat]
for an example
17:15:08 [mischat]
ah no my question was, could you give the full URI for "cert:identity"
17:15:17 [mischat]
17:15:19 [mischat]
got it
17:15:27 [mischat]
17:15:38 [caribou]
member submission?
17:15:46 [bblfish_]
bblfish_ has joined #swxg
17:15:48 [danbri]
17:15:48 [danbri]
- add some classes and relations for DSA
17:15:49 [bblfish_]
17:15:50 [danbri]
- should this all be in one file? Or should this be cut up a little? Say one file for the general CERT ontology, and then files for RSA, DSA, PGP, etc... Or perhaps it does not really matter?
17:15:53 [danbri]
- expand more on the certification side of things
17:15:55 [danbri]
- verify this by security experts
17:15:55 [bblfish_]>
17:15:57 [danbri]
- add more todos
17:15:59 [danbri]
- owl2 has some constructs for combined inverse functional properties.
17:16:01 [danbri]
This may be useful to use in defining an RSA key which is identified
17:16:03 [mischat]
wants a foaf:knows in bblfish's foaf file :)
17:16:03 [danbri]
by two numbers.
17:16:05 [danbri]
- when more stable create rdf/xml version
17:16:07 [danbri]
- also create html version of the spec by using this as a template.
17:16:09 [danbri]
- should comments such as this be in html?
17:16:11 [danbri]
we could publish a swig note
17:16:13 [danbri]
or as caribou mentions, a member sub (if you continue working for a Member)
17:16:31 [bblfish]
17:16:34 [mischat]
what is the smallest thing needed for the spec to be useful
17:17:03 [caribou]
danbri, 1 member amongst the authors is sufficient
17:17:09 [tinkster]
Smallest thing to be useful = a blog post, though a UN resolution would be nice.
17:17:16 [danbri]
UN :)
17:18:02 [mischat]
danbri asks if Henry would be happy for the work to be published via the W3C ?
17:18:09 [caribou]
17:18:16 [mischat]
17:18:35 [mischat]
henry would be happy for the work to be published via the W3C
17:18:41 [tinkster]
Open Web Foundation is a possibility too.
17:18:45 [melvster]
graphical example of the ontology (scroll down)
17:18:51 [danbri]
17:19:05 [mischat]
the scribe will have to go soon
17:21:06 [danbri]
mischat, thanks for scribing
17:21:11 [danbri]
zakim, please draft minutes
17:21:11 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'please draft minutes', danbri
17:21:21 [mischat]
17:21:25 [danbri]
rrsagent, please draft minutes
17:21:25 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate danbri
17:21:33 [danbri]
rrsagent, please make minutes public
17:21:33 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'please make minutes public', danbri. Try /msg RRSAgent help
17:21:36 [danbri]
17:22:05 [mischat]
bye all
17:22:08 [Zakim]
17:22:10 [danbri]
cheers, bye!
17:22:13 [mischat_]
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17:24:23 [Zakim]
17:24:27 [Zakim]
17:24:28 [Zakim]
17:24:31 [danbri]
zakim, drop danbri
17:24:31 [Zakim]
danbri is being disconnected
17:24:32 [Zakim]
17:24:32 [Zakim]
17:24:35 [Zakim]
17:24:36 [danbri]
thanks all!
17:24:41 [Zakim]
17:24:57 [danbri]
thanks again bblfish
17:25:43 [bblfish]
17:27:24 [mischat]
thanks bblfish
17:27:36 [mischat]
17:27:42 [mischat]
17:27:48 [tinkster]
17:27:56 [tinkster]
17:28:13 [bblfish]
ah ok
17:28:16 [bblfish]
will do
17:28:19 [bblfish]
17:28:38 [mischat]
17:29:21 [melvster]
and :)
17:29:46 [tinkster]
I must add some foaf:knowses to"> - there are quite a few in my SPARQL endpoint, but a GET to doesn't reveal them.
17:30:40 [danbri]
nice site for openid testing btw:
17:32:27 [melvster]
very sorry about the outage of during the call ... something outside of my control, the ISP ... I'll try and make a short screencast and post it to the group ...
17:32:35 [Zakim]
17:32:37 [Zakim]
INC_SWXG()11:00AM has ended
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Attendees were tpa, cperey, +0785583aaaa, tinkster, +0186555aabb, danbri, bblfish, mischat, Carine, yoshiaki, rreck, MacTed, petef, Anita, pchampin, melvster
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