14:46:19 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #dap
14:46:19 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/12/09-dap-irc
14:46:21 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:46:21 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #dap
14:46:23 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be DAP
14:46:23 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see UW_DAP()10:00AM scheduled to start in 14 minutes
14:46:24 <trackbot> Meeting: Device APIs and Policy Working Group Teleconference
14:46:24 <trackbot> Date: 09 December 2009
14:51:13 <marengo> marengo has joined #dap
14:51:39 <Dzung_Tran> Dzung_Tran has joined #dap
14:51:40 <fjh> fjh has joined #dap
14:52:00 <Dzung_Tran> Present+ Dzung_Tran
14:52:50 <AnssiK> AnssiK has joined #dap
14:52:56 <marengo> Present+ Marco_Marengo
14:53:00 <fjh> fjh has changed the topic to: DAP code 3279 agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2009Dec/0155.html register attendance with Present+ first_last, update handle with zakim, aaaa is handle
14:53:59 <Zakim> UW_DAP()10:00AM has now started
14:54:04 <fjh> Chair: Robin_Berjon, Frederick_Hirsch
14:54:05 <Zakim> + +358.504.86aaaa
14:54:30 <nwidell> nwidell has joined #dap
14:54:38 <AnssiK> zakim, aaaa is AnssiK
14:54:38 <Zakim> +AnssiK; got it
14:54:39 <fjh> Regrets: Suresh_Chitturi
14:54:46 <fjh> Present+ Frederick_Hirsch
14:54:59 <AnssiK> Present+ Anssi_Kostiainen
14:55:14 <Zakim> +??P9
14:55:24 <fjh> zakim, ??P9 is fjh
14:55:24 <Zakim> +fjh; got it
14:56:02 <nwidell> Present+ Niklas_Widell
14:56:46 <fjh_> fjh_ has joined #dap
14:58:04 <Zakim> +??P12
14:58:17 <darobin> Zakim, ??P12 is me
14:58:17 <Zakim> +darobin; got it
14:59:38 <ilkka> Present+ Ilkka Oksanen
14:59:39 <Zakim> +ilkka
15:00:22 <marcin> marcin has joined #dap
15:00:30 <marcin> Present+ Marcin_Hanclik
15:00:37 <darobin> Present+ Robin_Berjon
15:00:48 <Claes> Claes has joined #dap
15:01:20 <Zakim> + +49.208.4.aabb
15:01:28 <marcin> Zakim, aabb is marcin
15:01:28 <Laura_Arribas> Laura_Arribas has joined #dap
15:01:31 <Zakim> +marcin; got it
15:01:46 <Laura_Arribas> Present+ Laura_Arribas
15:02:13 <Zakim> +maxf
15:02:41 <Zakim> +Laura_Arribas
15:02:55 <Zakim> + +1.503.521.aacc
15:03:00 <Zakim> +Dom
15:03:08 <tlr> zakim, call thomas-781
15:03:08 <Zakim> ok, tlr; the call is being made
15:03:09 <Zakim> +Thomas
15:03:09 <Zakim> + +46.1.08.01.aadd
15:03:10 <dom> Present+ Dominique_Hazael_Massieux
15:03:17 <tlr> zakim, I am thomas
15:03:17 <Zakim> ok, tlr, I now associate you with Thomas
15:03:19 <tlr> zakim, mute me
15:03:19 <Zakim> Thomas should now be muted
15:03:24 <tlr> Present+ Thomas_Roessler
15:03:28 <maxf> Present+ Max_Froumentin
15:03:39 <Claes> Present+ Claes_Nilsson
15:03:52 <dom> zakim, aacc is Dzung_Tran
15:03:52 <Zakim> +Dzung_Tran; got it
15:03:59 <dom> zakim, who's making noise?
15:04:01 <dom> zakim, mute me
15:04:01 <Zakim> Dom should now be muted
15:04:09 <Zakim> dom, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: +46.1.08.01.aadd (36%), fjh (39%)
15:04:20 <fjh> zakim, aadd is claes
15:04:20 <Zakim> +claes; got it
15:04:52 <richt> richt has joined #dap
15:04:58 <Zakim> + +04610715aaee
15:05:03 <arve> arve has joined #dap
15:05:07 <dom> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2009Dec/0155.html
15:05:40 <Zakim> + +1.208.849.aaff
15:05:41 <ilkka> Scribenick: ilkka
15:05:43 <nwidell> zakim, aaee is nwidell
15:05:43 <Zakim> +nwidell; got it
15:05:53 <ilkka> TOPIC: Welcome, agenda review, scribe selection
15:06:03 <fjh> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2009Dec/0155.html
15:06:21 <ilkka> fjh: any additions to agenda?
15:06:29 <drogersuk> drogersuk has joined #dap
15:06:45 <ilkka> fjh: lets cancel call during holiday period
15:06:55 <ilkka> s/call/calls/
15:07:25 <fjh> minutes
15:07:27 <fjh> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2009Dec/0154.html
15:07:27 <ilkka> RESOLUTION: Calls are cancelled on 23rd and 30th of December
15:07:31 <dom> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2009Dec/att-0154/02-dap-minutes.html December 2 proposed minutes
15:08:01 <fjh> trust
15:08:08 <ilkka> RESOLUTION: minutes from 2nd of December are approved
15:08:14 <fjh> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2009Dec/0153.html
15:08:23 <ilkka> TOPIC: Policy Segment
15:09:29 <ilkka> fjh: differences between Nokia and BONDI policy frameworks are described in the above mail
15:10:15 <dom> ACTION-38?
15:10:16 <trackbot> ACTION-38 -- Claes Nilsson to should issue recommendation on the granularity of the security system -- due 2009-11-09 -- OPEN
15:10:16 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/actions/38
15:10:19 <ilkka> Claes: I have action from Santa Clara meeting to provide input, will happen in one week
15:11:02 <ilkka> fjh: Laura, do you anything to add to requirements
15:12:19 <fjh> Adding trust and use cases to requirements
15:12:28 <fjh> TAB and Policy
15:12:37 <fjh> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2009Dec/0130.html
15:12:42 <dom> s/TAB/TAG/
15:12:56 <dom> s/http:/-> http:/
15:13:05 <dom> s/.html/.html TAG issue on privacy and policy/
15:13:27 <ilkka> Laura_Arribas: will follow up soon
15:13:50 <dom> zakim, mute me
15:13:50 <Zakim> Dom was already muted, dom
15:14:13 <Zakim> +Ingmar_Kliche
15:14:15 <ilkka> fjh: this is useful information, but not sure yet how to respond
15:14:36 <Zakim> + +1.202.637.aagg
15:15:04 <dom> zakim, aagg is John_Morris
15:15:04 <Zakim> +John_Morris; got it
15:15:49 <wonsuk> wonsuk has joined #dap
15:16:03 <ingmar> ingmar has joined #dap
15:16:11 <ilkka> ACTION: frederick to draft a response TAG issue on privacy and policy 
15:16:11 <trackbot> Created ACTION-73 - Draft a response TAG issue on privacy and policy  [on Frederick Hirsch - due 2009-12-16].
15:16:17 <wonsuk> Present+ Wonsuk_Lee
15:16:26 <ilkka> TOPIC: API Segment
15:17:46 <ilkka> darobin: I would like to ask editors of each draft to mail list of current issues
15:18:06 <jmorris> jmorris has joined #dap
15:18:22 <ilkka> richt: small tweaks this week
15:18:42 <jmorris> Present+ John_Morris
15:18:43 <ilkka> ... in contacts API
15:18:53 <Zakim> + +82.10.58.00.aahh
15:19:23 <ilkka> richt: It will still take some time to be able to upload first version Calendar API 
15:20:09 <darobin> http://www.w3.org/mid/CC26A8D2-49CF-4137-8ABC-08D18FD921A0@berjon.com
15:20:30 <Zakim> +??P34
15:21:00 <drogersuk> present+ David Rogers
15:21:01 <ilkka> darobin: File system & file writer API: updated version will be available in couple days. Feedback welcome.
15:21:40 <fjh> zakim, ??P34 is drogersuk
15:21:40 <Zakim> +drogersuk; got it
15:21:57 <dom> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2009Dec/0150.html Next steps on Capture API?, from Dzung Tran
15:22:04 <ilkka> Dzung_Tran: Capture API: discussion ongoing regarding how to build the UI
15:22:30 <darobin> ACTION: Robin to send an email to list summarising the options for <input> or not in Capture
15:22:31 <trackbot> Created ACTION-74 - Send an email to list summarising the options for <input> or not in Capture [on Robin Berjon - due 2009-12-16].
15:23:06 <dom> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2009Dec/0165.html Progress report on Messaging from Niklas
15:23:11 <dom> ACTION-65?
15:23:11 <trackbot> ACTION-65 -- Niklas Widell to provide an editors draft of the Messaging API -- due 2009-12-02 -- OPEN
15:23:11 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/actions/65
15:23:37 <ilkka> darobin: discussion ongoing whether to have programmatical API or <input> based solution, or both
15:24:20 <ilkka> nwidell: first version of messaging API will be based on BONDI API
15:24:31 <tlr> q+ 
15:24:35 <ilkka> s/BONDI messaging API/
15:24:49 <maxf> q+ to ask about the granularity of CVS commits
15:24:57 <ilkka> s/BONDI API/BONDI messaging API/
15:25:14 <darobin> ack tlr
15:25:15 <tlr> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3986
15:25:19 <tlr> ack thom
15:25:44 <dom> s/http:/-> http:/
15:25:57 <dom> s/3986/3986/ RFC 3986 SMS uri scheme
15:25:59 <marcin> q+
15:26:09 <tlr> here's the I-D I had in mind
15:26:10 <tlr> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wilde-sms-uri-20
15:26:23 <darobin> ack maxf 
15:26:23 <Zakim> maxf, you wanted to ask about the granularity of CVS commits
15:26:25 <tlr> RFC 3986 is the wrong reference for this
15:26:25 <ilkka> darobin: it better to have first version soon even if it's not well thought
15:26:26 <tlr> zakim, mute me
15:26:26 <Zakim> Thomas should now be muted
15:26:43 <dom> s/3986 SMS/3986/
15:26:57 <dom> s/http:/-> http:/
15:27:03 <ilkka> maxf: when to do CVS commits?
15:27:10 <dom> s/uri-20/uri-20 SMS URI scheme (proposed)/
15:27:15 <arve_> arve_ has joined #dap
15:27:17 <dom> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:27:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/12/09-dap-minutes.html dom
15:27:27 <ilkka> darobin: always when the change makes sense
15:27:31 <AnssiK> +1 to release early, release often
15:27:43 <maxf> (of course, with git we won't have that problem anymore ;)
15:28:06 <tlr> +1 to commit early, commit very often
15:28:09 <ilkka> darobin: announce your changes because not all are subscribed to DAP-commits mailing list
15:28:12 <AnssiK> shorter commit logs are easier to read and comment on
15:28:18 <darobin> ack marcin 
15:29:01 <ilkka> maxf: updated MMS related drafts exists 
15:29:27 <tlr> ack thom
15:29:45 <dom> s/maxf:/marcin:/
15:30:04 <ilkka> dom: what are the requirements that can't be fulfilled using this URI scheme?
15:30:10 <dom> s/dom/tlr/
15:30:25 <tlr> s/dom/tlr/
15:30:27 <tlr> zakim, mute me
15:30:27 <Zakim> Thomas should now be muted
15:31:13 <marcin> q+
15:31:21 <dom> [maybe we can raise an issue about this point?]
15:32:20 <darobin> PROPOSED ISSUE: Make sure that uses cases for messaging don't overlap with linking
15:32:39 <dom> PROPOSED ISSUE: what use cases justify using an API on top of the existing URI schemes
15:32:58 <tlr> PROPOSED ISSUE: What messaging use cases cannot be fulfilled by existing URI schemes (mailto, sms, mms)?
15:33:10 <darobin> ISSUE: What messaging use cases cannot be fulfilled by existing URI schemes (mailto, sms, mms)?
15:33:10 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-54 - What messaging use cases cannot be fulfilled by existing URI schemes (mailto, sms, mms)? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/issues/54/edit .
15:33:27 <darobin> ack mar
15:34:13 <ilkka> marcin: I'll comment the draft when it's available
15:34:51 <dom> -> http://dev.w3.org/2009/dap/system-info/ Systems Info & Events API editors draft
15:35:15 <dom> -> http://dev.w3.org/2009/dap/system-info/#the-system-interface Proposed core interface for systems info, with get, set, and watch
15:35:29 <ilkka> ???: get(), set() and watch() are the core funtions of the API
15:35:36 <darobin> s/???/maxf/
15:36:28 <dom> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2009Dec/0146.html Discussion on units, value ranges for SysInfo
15:37:09 <ilkka> ... spec is written in an abstracted way
15:37:45 <Claes1> Claes1 has joined #dap
15:38:38 <dom> Regrets+ Arve
15:39:22 <arve> arve has joined #dap
15:40:39 <ilkka> ... e.g. temperature can be a value between 0 and 1
15:41:37 <dom> q+ to ask about roadmap
15:41:41 <dom> ack me
15:41:42 <Zakim> dom, you wanted to ask about roadmap
15:42:30 <ilkka> dom: we have now file writer api, how about full file system API?
15:43:30 <dom> [I think personally file writing is a more interesting priority than the other operations]
15:43:30 <ilkka> dom: should file system API be a priority API?
15:45:32 <richt> q+
15:46:17 <ilkka> ???: file system API is a priority API
15:46:22 <darobin> ack richt 
15:46:30 <darobin> s/???/Dave/
15:48:07 <ilkka> richt: full file system API for v1 is too big task
15:48:30 <tlr> for the record, "My Documents" is *not* a useful sandbox.
15:48:38 <tlr> it translates into "most of my interesting data"
15:48:53 <drogersuk> just an example - x sandbox
15:49:23 <drogersuk> underlying platform can always constrain to specific sandboxes for specific purposes / applications / websites
15:49:37 <dom> what's the conclusion of this discussion?
15:50:11 <dom> ok, so the DAP homepage is already reflecting that, thanks
15:50:17 <darobin> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: all of File API is a priority, but Writing > Directory
15:51:07 <richt> to clarify my point was that beyond file writer api, the next acheivable spec would be a limited sandboxed file system api rather than focussing on the a full file-system api for v1.
15:52:06 <ilkka> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: all of File API is a priority, inside the API, file writer is a priority compared to other parts of the API
15:52:08 <richt> full file-system api = directories. A sandboxed model would not provide any directory traversal o multi-level trees (sandboxes are flat structures)
15:52:44 <arve> From the sideline, Opera has a sandboxed model for file system access
15:53:02 <arve> with the sandbox defined along "mountpoints"
15:53:37 <arve> not a flat structure, but honest-to-[deity] tree structures, path traversal rules, and transparent traversal in to archives
15:53:38 <marcin> BONDI is still deciding about sandbox vs. full FS
15:53:53 <arve> I would like the WG to adopt this model, because it actually works
15:53:55 <ilkka> arve: there is no concensus about the priority
15:54:20 <richt> interesting stuff arve. does Opera have anything to provide to DAP?
15:54:32 <ilkka> ... we are not yet ready to make a resolution
15:54:44 <dom> s/arve:/davidRogers:/
15:55:05 <arve> richt, dom, ilkka - see this http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/file-i-o-api-for-widgets/
15:55:26 <arve> we could then argue the finer points of actually accessing files
15:55:38 <arve> but this is what we have implementation experience with
15:55:38 <tlr> ack thom
15:55:41 <tlr> q
15:55:42 <tlr> q+
15:56:14 <darobin> ack tlr 
15:56:19 <fjh> ack thom
15:56:54 <ilkka> darobin: no resolution on this call
15:58:53 <fjh> reminder - wg members should review the drafts, and make comments on the list
15:58:53 <ilkka> davidRogers: file writer API is in conflict with BONDI proposal
15:59:21 <fjh> Issues should also be raised in tracker and discussed on the list
15:59:40 <dom> I think there are 3 topics: 1) File reader might need additional work from DAP; 2) that additional work needs to be a priority over File writing; 3) File writing is a priority over directory mangement
15:59:59 <dom> I think we can agree on 3); I hadn't heard about 1) and 2) before
16:00:44 <richt> q+
16:00:55 <dom> ACTION: David to send OMTP position on the file API organization
16:00:55 <trackbot> Created ACTION-75 - Send OMTP position on the file API organization [on David Rogers - due 2009-12-16].
16:01:01 <darobin> ack richt 
16:02:23 <dom> (I think Richard should bring his ideas to the list — we're unlikely to be able to digest a detailed proposal on the phone :)
16:02:30 <tlr> +1 to dom
16:02:39 <ilkka> richt: in priority-wise: file writing > sand boxing > directory management
16:03:02 <richt> Ilkka, that is my proposal. Thanks. That is a better way of looking at how to proceed.
16:03:07 <Zakim> -Laura_Arribas
16:03:09 <Zakim> -Dom
16:03:10 <Zakim> -drogersuk
16:03:10 <Zakim> -maxf
16:03:11 <Zakim> -AnssiK
16:03:11 <Zakim> -marcin
16:03:12 <Zakim> -Thomas
16:03:12 <Zakim> -wonsuk
16:03:13 <ilkka> meeting adjourned
16:03:13 <Zakim> -Ingmar_Kliche
16:03:18 <Zakim> -richt
16:03:18 <darobin> thanks ilkka 
16:03:19 <Zakim> -claes
16:03:20 <fjh> rrsagent, generate minutes
16:03:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/12/09-dap-minutes.html fjh
16:03:21 <jmorris> jmorris has left #dap
16:03:21 <wonsuk> wonsuk has left #dap
16:03:21 <AnssiK> AnssiK has left #dap
16:03:22 <Zakim> -Dzung_Tran
16:03:32 <Zakim> -fjh
16:03:38 <Zakim> -John_Morris
16:03:41 <Zakim> -nwidell
16:03:42 <marengo> marengo has left #dap
16:03:51 <Zakim> -ilkka
16:04:35 <arve> as a note - the filewriter proposal is, given bondi's inheritance from the opera spec, also in conflict with Opera's spec
16:05:19 <ilkka> fjh: ok, hopefully they are understandable, I'm not so used to write english text fast :)
16:08:20 <darobin> arve: is that an issue for Opera?
16:09:35 <Zakim> -darobin
16:09:36 <Zakim> UW_DAP()10:00AM has ended
16:09:37 <Zakim> Attendees were +358.504.86aaaa, AnssiK, fjh, darobin, ilkka, +49.208.4.aabb, marcin, maxf, Laura_Arribas, +1.503.521.aacc, Dom, Thomas, +46.1.08.01.aadd, Dzung_Tran, claes,
16:09:39 <Zakim> ... +04610715aaee, nwidell, richt, Ingmar_Kliche, +1.202.637.aagg, John_Morris, wonsuk, drogersuk
16:10:00 <fjh2> fjh2 has left #dap
16:13:05 <marcin> arve, what do you mean by conflict?
16:14:47 <darobin> there is no conflict, there's just a way that works in browsers and another that doesn't :)
16:16:12 <maxf> We should try out google wave for scribing
16:17:20 <dom> RRSAgent, bye
16:17:20 <RRSAgent> I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/12/09-dap-actions.rdf :
16:17:20 <RRSAgent> ACTION: frederick to draft a response TAG issue on privacy and policy  [1]
16:17:20 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/12/09-dap-irc#T15-16-11
16:17:20 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Robin to send an email to list summarising the options for <input> or not in Capture [2]
16:17:20 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/12/09-dap-irc#T15-22-30
16:17:20 <RRSAgent> ACTION: David to send OMTP position on the file API organization [3]
16:17:20 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/12/09-dap-irc#T16-00-55