16:04:05 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #prov-xg
16:04:05 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/12/04-prov-xg-irc
16:04:07 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
16:04:09 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 98765
16:04:09 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see INC_PROVXG()11:00AM scheduled to start 4 minutes ago
16:04:10 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Incubator Group Teleconference
16:04:10 <trackbot> Date: 04 December 2009
16:04:21 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
16:04:21 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
16:04:37 <Paulo> Paulo has joined #prov-xg
16:04:43 <Deborah> +q - plans for calls for the rest of the month
16:04:58 <ivan> zakim, who is here?
16:04:58 <Zakim> INC_PROVXG()11:00AM has not yet started, ivan
16:04:59 <Zakim> On IRC I see Paulo, RRSAgent, Zakim, afreitas, Paolo, Luc, smiles, lkagal, Aleksey, Deborah, olaf, jcheney, pgroth, jmccuske, michaelp, YolandaG, ssahoo2, ivan, trackbot
16:05:04 <ivan> sigh...
16:05:33 <ivan> zakim, this is inc_provxg
16:05:33 <Zakim> ok, ivan; that matches INC_PROVXG()11:00AM
16:05:48 <Zakim> + +1.915.747.aahh
16:05:58 <ivan> zakim, who is here?
16:05:58 <Zakim> On the phone I see Prateek, ??P2, ??P1, +1.518.276.aaaa, +1.860.995.aabb, Jerry_Hobbs, ??P12, ??P10, +1.781.646.aacc, +49.302.093.aadd, +1.614.592.aaee, +0238059aaff, ??P24
16:06:04 <Zakim> ... (muted), ??P25, +1.609.462.aagg, Ivan, ??P28, +1.915.747.aahh
16:06:05 <Zakim> On IRC I see Paulo, RRSAgent, Zakim, afreitas, Paolo, Luc, smiles, lkagal, Aleksey, Deborah, olaf, jcheney, pgroth, jmccuske, michaelp, YolandaG, ssahoo2, ivan, trackbot
16:06:11 <YolandaG> Zakim, Jerry_Hobbs is really me
16:06:12 <pgroth> Zakim, ??P1 is pgroth
16:06:14 <Zakim> +YolandaG; got it
16:06:16 <Zakim> I already had ??P1 as ??P1, pgroth
16:06:22 <Zakim> - +1.860.995.aabb
16:06:27 <michaelp> +1.614.592.aaee is really michaelp
16:06:40 <Zakim> + +1.860.995.aaii
16:06:45 <ludaesch> ludaesch has joined #prov-xg
16:07:01 <ssahoo2> zakim, Prateek is really me
16:07:01 <Zakim> +ssahoo2; got it
16:07:11 <jmccuske> +1.860.995.aaii is really me
16:07:16 <pgroth> Zakim, ??P1 is really pgroth
16:07:16 <Zakim> +pgroth; got it
16:07:30 <Zakim> -??P10
16:07:47 <Paolo> ok no problem that's a good answer :-)
16:07:48 <jmccuske> +1.860.995.aaii is really jmccuske
16:07:52 <lkagal> yolanda: discuss use cases
16:07:58 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:08:15 <Zakim> + +1.530.554.aajj
16:08:42 <jmccuske> Zakim, +1.860.995.aaii is really jmccuske
16:08:42 <Zakim> +jmccuske; got it
16:08:47 <Aleksey> Zakim, +[IPcaller] is really me
16:08:47 <Zakim> sorry, Aleksey, I do not recognize a party named '+[IPcaller]'
16:09:08 <lkagal> yolanda: several usecases on escience, several aspects of dimensions that do not show up in usecases. People have offered to add usecases in the next few days. 
16:09:22 <olaf> olaf has joined #prov-xg
16:10:22 <lkagal> yolanda: add comments to discussion pages of wiki. Maybe have usecase editors to work with proposer to refine the usecase, make sure there is enough detail, or merge two related usecases.
16:10:54 <lkagal> yolanda: any volunteers for usecase editors ?
16:11:22 <Luc> I am not sure where we're supposed to comment? on each use case page itself?
16:11:47 <lkagal> yolanda: a glossary of terms to keep track of terms that we use
16:12:11 <lkagal> ... going through each use case. 
16:12:59 <lkagal> yolanda: 1. Simple Trustworthiness Assessment - Olaf is proposer
16:14:21 <Luc> q+
16:14:29 <smiles> q+
16:14:33 <pgroth> luc, i think, if you have comments on a use case you can do that in the discussion section of the use case
16:14:58 <Luc> q+
16:15:52 <Deborah> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/Provenance_Dimensions
16:16:51 <lkagal> Olaf: Alice publishes Bob's and Carol's data, she is not the provider of the data. So there are different trust relations that the consumer/user of the data, Eve, uses to decide whether or not to use the data. Dimensions: Attribution (Alice provides and manipulates data, Bob and Carol who provide the data), Publication (how to publish this provenance info), Use (Understanding?), Trust (application filters data based on trust).
16:17:08 <michaelp> zakim, +1.614.592.aaee is really michaelp
16:17:08 <Zakim> +michaelp; got it
16:18:41 <lkagal> Luc: the use case should be expressed without the concept of provenance. 
16:19:32 <jcheney> q+
16:20:22 <michaelp> michaelp has left #prov-xg
16:20:47 <lkagal> Luc: this usecase is good because its connected to different dimensions and is strongly related to Linked Data. There is a lot of interest in RDF community to associate triples with provenance and I wonder if this usecase is influenced by that. Should we try to express usecases without such a dependence on technology and without assuming the provenance concept ?
16:21:18 <lkagal> (Luc, I'm not sure I captured all your comments/questions, pls add anything I missed)
16:21:19 <michaelp> michaelp has joined #prov-xg
16:23:45 <lkagal> Simon: One of the purposes of usecase is to find technical challenges. It would be good to if the owners of each use case added the technical challenges for each usecase.
16:25:29 <lkagal> jcheney: I agree that provenance shouldn't assumed in the use case. Is there a difference between trust and filtering in this use case ? 
16:26:04 <lkagal> olaf: consumer makes the judgement whether to filter or not but uses information related to provenance to make that decision
16:26:06 <Paulo> q+
16:26:17 <lkagal> ack Luc
16:26:20 <lkagal> ack smiles
16:26:26 <lkagal> ack jcheney
16:27:11 <lkagal> yolanda: maybe usecase could talk about trustworthiness assessment and then talk about how it would apply to different domains - LOD, escience etc. 
16:27:44 <lkagal> olaf: Linked Data Timeliness. A dataset that changes frequently. Two publishers use this data to make and publish their own dataset. 
16:29:08 <michaelp> zakim, who is there
16:29:08 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is there', michaelp
16:29:12 <Paolo> q+
16:29:43 <michaelp> zakim, who is here
16:29:43 <Zakim> michaelp, you need to end that query with '?'
16:29:47 <michaelp> zakim, who is here?
16:29:47 <Zakim> On the phone I see ssahoo2, ??P2, pgroth, +1.518.276.aaaa, YolandaG, ??P12, +1.781.646.aacc, +49.302.093.aadd, michaelp, +0238059aaff, ??P24 (muted), ??P25, +1.609.462.aagg, Ivan,
16:29:50 <Zakim> ... ??P28, +1.915.747.aahh, jmccuske, [IPcaller], +1.530.554.aajj
16:29:51 <Zakim> On IRC I see michaelp, olaf, ludaesch, Paulo, RRSAgent, Zakim, afreitas, Paolo, smiles, lkagal, Aleksey, Deborah, jcheney, pgroth, jmccuske, YolandaG, ssahoo2, ivan, trackbot
16:30:16 <Paolo> q?
16:30:57 <lkagal> olaf: Application accesses data provided by these publishers and uses provenance such as time to decide whether to use this data. Dimensions: process, creation time, data accessed time (new one) how and when data was accessed includes when publisher accessed the data, republishing, trust (filters data based on timeliness).
16:31:40 <pgroth> olaf, why isn't this timeliness problem fall under the updates category?
16:31:52 <lkagal> Paulo: +1 Luc. The usecase does not necessarily highlight problems. 
16:32:29 <ssahoo2> +1 Paulo
16:32:52 <lkagal> Paulo, I missed that, please could you add it. 
16:33:31 <pgroth> +q
16:33:54 <lkagal> Paolo: Strong focus on LOD, maybe not required. Should generalize the usecase.
16:34:28 <lkagal> Paul: Olaf, you want to introduce another dimension of data access. Why does update not include this ? 
16:34:35 <lkagal> ack paulo
16:34:39 <lkagal> ack paolo
16:34:43 <pgroth> ack pgroth
16:35:15 <michaelp> q+
16:35:30 <lkagal> Olaf: The provider of the data may not be the creator, update is related to creation. But the provider is not creating it but accessing it for publishing. 
16:36:53 <lkagal> Yolanda: Time is only one aspect of this, there are other aspects.
16:36:56 <Paulo> understanding trust itself may be a distraction for the group to understand the role of provenance in support of trust
16:38:06 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
16:38:22 <lkagal> michaelp: usecase is about reliability assumption and not so much about timeliness. 
16:38:33 <Zakim> +??P17
16:39:14 <olaf> q+
16:39:24 <lkagal> Yolanda: We need a glossary of terms. Reliability means something different to me. Time is crucial to provenance and we need to highlight it somehow. 
16:39:33 <lkagal> ack michaelp
16:40:31 <lkagal> Olaf: I agree with Michael. Similar to the trust case, we had a model to calculate trust in this case we have a model to calculate timeliness. 
16:40:37 <lkagal> acl olaf
16:40:42 <lkagal> ack olaf
16:41:52 <lkagal> Simon: Result Differences use case. Process is imp thing. Management issue - large historic data, imperfection and debugging. 
16:43:15 <lkagal> yolanda: is there a usecase where comparing different results would matter. 
16:43:43 <lkagal> ... in a different domain
16:44:49 <pgroth> +q
16:44:54 <Paolo> :-)
16:45:39 <pgroth> ack pgroth
16:46:59 <lkagal> pgroth: Blogosphere usecase. Aggregating blogposts. Question: when you aggregate diff posts and discussions, how do you traceback to where the original data came from. 
16:47:42 <ssahoo2> q+
16:47:53 <lkagal> Yolanda: content evolution, republishes, who is responsible for publishing, is it a requirement, can someone reconstruct the provenance.
16:48:40 <lkagal> pgroth: republishing, interoperability
16:49:31 <pgroth> q+
16:50:02 <Paolo> q+
16:50:10 <lkagal> Mark: Re cross references mostly circular references. I'll post related paper. 
16:50:34 <lkagal> ... I'll add this use case
16:51:23 <pgroth> ack pgroth
16:52:33 <ivan> zakim, who is noisy?
16:52:44 <Zakim> ivan, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: YolandaG (23%), +1.781.646.aacc (27%), +1.609.462.aagg (56%)
16:54:10 <lkagal> Yolanda: timeliness is not a matter of publishing but during the use itself, how provenance is used by consumer.
16:55:01 <ssahoo2> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/Talk:Provenance_Dimensions
16:55:14 <lkagal> ssahoo: For dimensions I had suggested agents and adding temporal and spatial dimensions. 
16:55:40 <pgroth> q+
16:55:50 <ssahoo2> ack ssahoo
16:55:53 <lkagal> Paolo: Track how a community came to a scientific conclusion. Should there be another use case. 
16:55:57 <lkagal> ack Paolo
16:56:57 <ssahoo2> q+
16:57:27 <pgroth> ack pgroth
16:57:36 <lkagal> pgroth: Having a scientific aggregation use case would be good to have. Provenance of blogosphere, tweets, and scientific aggregation are related and might lead to a common/general use case.
16:58:00 <lkagal> Yolanda: volunteers for usecase editors ?
16:58:21 <ssahoo2> I will be happy to help in editing the use cases
16:58:24 <lkagal> Simon: yes
16:58:52 <lkagal> Paolo: yes
16:59:17 <jmccuske> q+
16:59:25 <ssahoo2> ack ssahoo
16:59:33 <pgroth> q+
16:59:34 <lkagal> ssahoo: will we be discussing dimensions ?
16:59:53 <lkagal> Yolanda: lets work on usecases first and then refine dimensions
17:00:16 <pgroth> can we talk about the dimensions on the email list?
17:00:18 <lkagal> Yolanda: glossary editor ?
17:00:19 <pgroth> ack pgroth
17:00:28 <Luc> Luc has joined #prov-xg
17:00:47 <Luc> yolanda: should we raise the issue of a face 2 face meeting?
17:00:52 <Luc> q+
17:01:26 <ssahoo2> Paul: we are posting comments on the dimensions in the discussion tab
17:01:28 <Zakim> -pgroth
17:01:35 <pgroth> that's true
17:01:42 <pgroth> so a good place to do it
17:02:47 <ssahoo2> we can always have complementary discussions on the mailing list
17:02:56 <Zakim> -ssahoo2
17:02:57 <Zakim> -jmccuske
17:02:57 <Zakim> - +0238059aaff
17:02:57 <ivan> zakim, drop me
17:02:58 <Zakim> Ivan is being disconnected
17:02:58 <Zakim> -Ivan
17:02:58 <Zakim> -??P28
17:02:59 <Deborah> bye
17:02:59 <Zakim> -??P24
17:02:59 <pgroth> pgroth has left #prov-xg
17:03:00 <afreitas> afreitas has left #prov-xg
17:03:00 <Zakim> -??P12
17:03:02 <Zakim> -??P25
17:03:05 <Zakim> -??P17
17:03:06 <Zakim> - +1.609.462.aagg
17:03:08 <Zakim> -YolandaG
17:03:11 <Zakim> - +1.530.554.aajj
17:03:13 <Zakim> - +49.302.093.aadd
17:03:15 <Zakim> - +1.781.646.aacc
17:03:17 <Zakim> -??P2
17:03:18 <Zakim> -michaelp
17:03:21 <Zakim> - +1.915.747.aahh
17:03:23 <Zakim> - +1.518.276.aaaa
17:03:25 <Zakim> INC_PROVXG()11:00AM has ended
17:03:27 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.518.276.aaaa, +1.860.995.aabb, +1.781.646.aacc, +49.302.093.aadd, +0238059aaff, +1.609.462.aagg, Ivan, +1.915.747.aahh, YolandaG, ssahoo2, pgroth, [IPcaller],
17:03:29 <Zakim> ... +1.530.554.aajj, jmccuske, michaelp
17:03:52 <jmccuske> jmccuske has left #prov-xg
17:04:34 <lkagal> Yolanda, should I create the minutes and put them on the wiki ? 
17:07:07 <olaf> olaf has left #prov-xg
17:09:11 <lkagal> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:09:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/12/04-prov-xg-minutes.html lkagal
17:11:14 <lkagal> zakim, bye
17:11:14 <Zakim> Zakim has left #prov-xg
17:11:24 <lkagal> rrsagent, bye
17:11:24 <RRSAgent> I see no action items