IRC log of ua on 2009-12-03

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:29:25 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #ua
17:29:25 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/12/03-ua-irc
17:29:27 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
17:29:27 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #ua
17:29:29 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
17:29:29 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 31 minutes
17:29:30 [trackbot]
Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
17:29:30 [trackbot]
Date: 03 December 2009
17:29:49 [AllanJ]
Chair: Jim_allan
17:30:06 [AllanJ]
regrets: Kelly_ford
17:40:39 [AllanJ]
agenda+ discuss survey results - http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20091201/results
17:42:09 [AllanJ]
agenda+ Guideline 4.2 Provide access to event handlers http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2009OctDec/0079.html
17:42:42 [AllanJ]
agenda+ 4.2.2 implementation discussion http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2009OctDec/0080.html
17:43:14 [AllanJ]
agenda+ 4.4.1 and 4.4.2 implementation discussion http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2009OctDec/0081.html
17:43:44 [AllanJ]
Agenda+ getting to Last Call (brainstorming)
17:53:10 [Henny]
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17:57:17 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
17:57:18 [jeanne]
jeanne has joined #ua
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+AllanJ
17:57:28 [Greg]
Greg has joined #ua
17:58:03 [jeanne]
zakim, code?
17:58:03 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), jeanne
17:58:13 [Zakim]
+Jeanne
17:58:30 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
17:59:20 [AllanJ]
zakim, IPcaller is really mhakkinen
17:59:20 [Zakim]
+mhakkinen; got it
17:59:31 [Zakim]
+??P5
18:00:02 [Henny]
Henny has joined #ua
18:00:26 [Jan]
Jan has joined #ua
18:01:01 [Zakim]
+ +1.425.895.aaaa
18:01:26 [AllanJ]
zakim, aaaa is really Greg
18:01:26 [Zakim]
+Greg; got it
18:01:26 [Jan]
zakim, code?
18:01:27 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Jan
18:02:20 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
18:02:35 [AllanJ]
zakim, IPcaller Jan
18:02:35 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'IPcaller Jan', AllanJ
18:02:39 [Jan]
zakim, [IPcaller] is really Jan
18:02:39 [Zakim]
+Jan; got it
18:04:04 [AllanJ]
zakim, agenda?
18:04:04 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
18:04:05 [Zakim]
1. discuss survey results - http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20091201/results [from AllanJ]
18:04:08 [Zakim]
2. Guideline 4.2 Provide access to event handlers http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2009OctDec/0079.html [from AllanJ]
18:04:12 [Zakim]
3. 4.2.2 implementation discussion http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2009OctDec/0080.html [from AllanJ]
18:04:15 [Zakim]
4. 4.4.1 and 4.4.2 implementation discussion http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2009OctDec/0081.html [from AllanJ]
18:04:17 [Zakim]
5. getting to Last Call (brainstorming) [from AllanJ]
18:04:32 [KimPatch]
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18:04:52 [Henny]
Topic: 5. getting to Last Call (brainstorming)
18:05:17 [Zakim]
+ +1.617.325.aabb
18:05:34 [AllanJ]
zakim, aabb is really Kim
18:05:34 [Zakim]
+Kim; got it
18:05:43 [Henny]
JA: Bim Egan from RNIB has joined the working group. Not sure if on the calls or just by email
18:05:47 [sharper]
sharper has joined #ua
18:05:58 [sharper]
zakim, code?
18:05:58 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), sharper
18:06:47 [Henny]
JA: James Craig from Apple has also joined the group but has a competing con-call. He is working on VoiceOver and PF WAI-ARIA.
18:07:31 [Henny]
Topic: 5. getting to Last Call (brainstorming)
18:07:55 [Henny]
JS: Close to being done.
18:08:36 [Henny]
JS: UAAG 1 didn't make a splash so Judy and I have been stragizing on making UAAG 2 make a splash.
18:08:44 [Zakim]
+??P10
18:09:05 [sharper]
zakim, ??P10 is sharper
18:09:05 [Zakim]
+sharper; got it
18:14:01 [AllanJ]
send info to Jeanne jeanne@w3.org
18:21:07 [AllanJ]
Kim: could create a video about UA accessibility to promote UAAG20
18:21:08 [Henny]
KP: We could do a video to support UAAG.
18:21:26 [Henny]
HS: I can caption it.
18:21:46 [Henny]
KP: Covers what web standards has brought you and what it can bring you.
18:22:26 [Henny]
JA: Let's discuss in another meeting and decide an outline. Jeanne do we need to do this officially via W3C and an approval process?
18:22:43 [Henny]
JS: It should be ok but Judy will want to approve it.
18:23:02 [Henny]
JS: Minimum you have to do a transcript.
18:23:30 [AllanJ]
action: Jim to make agenda item for creating UAAG video
18:23:30 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-250 - Make agenda item for creating UAAG video [on Jim Allan - due 2009-12-10].
18:23:56 [Henny]
Topic: 1. discuss survey results - http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20091201/results
18:24:25 [Henny]
JA: Proposal 4.9.6 Change Rate of Time-based Media.
18:24:46 [Henny]
JA: Changed to 4.9.6 Playback Rate Adjustment for Multimedia Content.
18:25:15 [Henny]
JA: One change was to remove recorded or pre-recorded from bullets as it is covered in the main body of the SC.
18:26:41 [Henny]
Mark: Change the title...
18:26:42 [jeanne]
s/UAAG 1 didn't make a splash so Judy and I have been stragizing on making UAAG 2 make a splash. / Judy and I have been strategizing ways to improve the visibility of UAAG 2.0 and insure we have implementers
18:27:26 [Henny]
Greg: Clarify the change to the bullet. "Full range" change to "required range".
18:28:20 [Henny]
JA: Mark will deal with Jan's comments and title change.
18:28:26 [AllanJ]
Action: Mark to include greg, jan comments and title change for 4.9.6
18:28:26 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - Mark
18:28:36 [AllanJ]
Action: MH to include greg, jan comments and title change for 4.9.6
18:28:36 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-251 - Include greg, jan comments and title change for 4.9.6 [on Markku Hakkinen - due 2009-12-10].
18:29:16 [Henny]
JA: 4.9.C Visual Multimedia Scaling
18:29:52 [Henny]
JA: Been outstanding a year, about being able to scale the content region separate from the full screen.
18:30:27 [Henny]
JA: 4 accepts, 3 more discussion. All 3 related. Jan said need to be clearer about viewport.
18:30:57 [Henny]
JA: Let's look at clarifying "viewport", "limits of display", "current screen".
18:31:28 [Henny]
JA: Most video have full screen but can't interact with the page.
18:32:24 [Henny]
JA: On iPhone / Mobile make video 200% and it goes bigger than the screen. So need to phrase the language around limits of the browser window.
18:33:07 [Henny]
MH: Maybe it's easier to work backwards and instead of write the SC write the examples.
18:33:21 [Henny]
JA: OK, I can do that.
18:33:29 [Henny]
KP: Good idea.
18:34:06 [AllanJ]
action: JA to write intent and examples 4.9.c
18:34:06 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-252 - Write intent and examples 4.9.c [on Jim Allan - due 2009-12-10].
18:34:45 [Henny]
JA: The other clause was "includes but not limited to flash, canvas, video, css overflow"
18:35:40 [Henny]
JA: Those types of objects would have a sizing handle, like you could with frames and change the size. Be useful for Flash, canvas, video.
18:35:50 [Henny]
JA: Also CSS overflow
18:36:32 [Henny]
JA: Should be possible in the browser to grab the object, allow the browser to create a sizing handle.
18:37:19 [Henny]
MH: Two lists. One of things to resize and the second a way for the UA to handle how something resizes.
18:37:55 [Henny]
JA: Perhaps we need another SC that specifically addresses allow me to resize a thing?
18:38:38 [Henny]
MH: Other SC cover resize such as text. When a UA deals with anything being resized there are techniques to handle that without removing ability of user to perform tasks.
18:39:22 [Henny]
MH: We could make sure that text, multimedia is resizble then refer to techniques - without losing access to information or functionality.
18:41:10 [Henny]
JA: Another point is doing them all versus doing one specifically. In Firefox when I scale everything scales and I think what Mark and I thought was the page is ok but we want to scale the canvas or video.
18:41:39 [Henny]
MH: Multimedia should not be treated any differently from a graphic.
18:42:13 [Henny]
MH: Don't get hung up on the handles.
18:42:51 [Henny]
MH: There are extensions for Firefox that allow you to do this but requiring it at Level A may be too much. Level AA would be better.
18:45:24 [Henny]
HS: Nice idea, but would have to ask how possible this is to implement internally.
18:46:16 [Jan]
brb
18:46:48 [Greg]
The Zoom Image add-on for Firefox allows the user to individually scale any image or all images. It's quite useful. You can find it at https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/139.
18:47:05 [Henny]
JA: Greg, you're saying we need a generic SC that covers resizing X, Y Z and build the information round that.
18:47:19 [AllanJ]
scribe: henny
18:47:39 [Henny]
Greg: Either that or a template that references a set of requirements / techniques for the UA to handle resizing.
18:48:55 [Greg]
The key is that, for some things, the user should be able to resize them without losing access to information or functionality. (E.g. the user can still get to content that would now be outside the viewport, etc.)
18:48:58 [AllanJ]
action: Jim to rewrite 4.9.c to incorporate resizing specific items without loosing access to information or functionality.
18:48:58 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-253 - Rewrite 4.9.c to incorporate resizing specific items without loosing access to information or functionality. [on Jim Allan - due 2009-12-10].
18:49:42 [Henny]
Topic: 2. Guideline 4.2 Provide access to event handlers http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2009OctDec/0079.html
18:50:15 [Henny]
JA: This is for techniques or implementation ideas but as Greg rewrote them we will review them.
18:54:04 [Henny]
Greg: There is a conflict between "all" in tow points. All were structured differently which made it difficult to understand. I took one structured and restructured them all the same. I also thought I'd reduce total words and clauses. I also proposed taking stock phrases and replaced it with something new, to make it easier to read.
18:54:32 [Henny]
Greg: It was inconsistent in using the phrase input device handlers...
18:55:09 [Henny]
Greg: Is it now clearer?
18:55:13 [Henny]
Jan: I like it.
18:55:24 [Henny]
JA: Much clearer.
18:56:00 [Henny]
JA: 4.2.3 doesn't have a level at all. Any issues or comments with Greg's rewording?
18:56:05 [Henny]
KP: It's good.
18:56:52 [Henny]
JA: Greg put a Level A on 4.2.3. Is that different from before?
18:57:01 [Henny]
Jan: Ned to check UAAG 1.
18:57:15 [Henny]
Greg: My copy had a Level A, 23rd July copy.
18:57:24 [Henny]
JA: Ok, so wasn't updated.
18:57:47 [Henny]
Greg: Is there any user agent that does that?
18:58:27 [Henny]
JA: If Jaws is running then you can do this. Kim do you know as a keyboard user without Jaws running.
18:58:56 [Henny]
JA: Can you with speech only move the cursor to activate the handler to activate a mouse over?
18:59:04 [Henny]
Kim: You often can't.
18:59:26 [Jan]
In UAAG 1.0: 1.2 Activate event handlers (P1)
18:59:59 [Henny]
JA: This fails as you can't get a tooltip from the keyboard.
19:00:33 [Henny]
JA: Trying to make access and activation available from the keyboard.
19:01:03 [Henny]
Jan: I dropped into IRC "In UAAG 1.0: 1.2 Activate event handlers (P1)"
19:01:14 [Zakim]
-Jan
19:01:40 [Henny]
Kim: Irony of tooltips is that people that need to use keyboard shortcuts can't use the help via keyboard.
19:02:22 [Henny]
Greg: Sometimes tooltips are done at system level and sometimes by JavaScript.
19:02:49 [Henny]
Greg: Fact that tooltips are done by system doesn't invalidate stuff.
19:03:39 [Henny]
JA: Let's use Greg's wording.
19:04:15 [Henny]
Greg: I don't think you mean the user has to go via the UI to activate an event handler.
19:04:50 [Henny]
JA: If something gets focused it shouldn't tell me there is a tooltip but pop up the tooltip.
19:05:22 [Greg]
What I meant was that for common things like tooltips, the user should not have to go through UI to select and activate an event handler; this should only be a fallback workaround for dealing with badly written content.
19:05:32 [Henny]
KP: Definitely need full control. Sometimes Enter does more than one thing...
19:06:30 [Henny]
JA: Greg's wording captures the thought, need to flesh it out with implementation and examples.
19:06:52 [Henny]
JA: This is critical and has been for a long time.
19:07:24 [Henny]
JA: This is a repair function to if the author only wrote a mouse handler.
19:08:46 [Greg]
I'm wondering about relative priorities of the two activation SCs. If there are multiple event handlers dealing with click on a specific element, a user using a real mouse can't choose which to activate. It seems the most useful, and therefore highest priority SC would be "activate all" that gives the user the same functionality as the average user.
19:11:07 [Henny]
Greg: Can't base guidelines on what JavaScript does as we are technology neutral.
19:11:46 [Henny]
Greg: we can imagine a situation where a user tabs and there is a click or a double click....
19:12:30 [Henny]
Greg: User doesn't need to choose...
19:12:56 [Henny]
JA: The keyboard user should have the same functionality as the mouse user not more.
19:13:02 [Henny]
Greg: Right.
19:13:23 [Henny]
Greg: You could offer the keyboard user more but this is not Level A.
19:13:39 [Henny]
KP: Important to map things exactly as it can really confuse people.
19:14:40 [Henny]
Greg: Another approach is not to have the UA enumerate the handlers but to provide a mechanism to activate...
19:16:04 [Henny]
JA: The UA simulates the mouse click by the keyboard but has to know someone is asking for a mouse click.
19:16:34 [Henny]
JA: We will add Greg's new language to the editors draft. I can work with you Greg.
19:16:46 [AllanJ]
action: Jeanne to add new wording for 4.2, see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2009OctDec/0079.html
19:16:46 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-254 - Add new wording for 4.2, see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2009OctDec/0079.html [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2009-12-10].
19:18:06 [Zakim]
-Jeanne
19:18:12 [Zakim]
-mhakkinen
19:18:57 [AllanJ]
action: Jim to work with Greg (and ping James Craig) to develop implementation stuff for 4.2
19:18:57 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-255 - Work with Greg (and ping James Craig) to develop implementation stuff for 4.2 [on Jim Allan - due 2009-12-10].
19:21:03 [Henny]
Greg: Be good to talk to other representatives of technologies such as Flash.
19:21:23 [Henny]
JA: Topic: 3. 4.2.2 implementation discussion http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2009OctDec/0080.html
19:23:01 [Henny]
SH: We looked at the mouse over idea and made changes to 4.2.1. Greg had changes from 4.2.2.
19:23:16 [Henny]
Greg: I though a different lead in would help.
19:23:37 [Henny]
SH: That may work. If we change that we need to change 4.2.1 as well.
19:24:10 [AllanJ]
Although it should not do so, some Web content is designed to work only with certain input devices, such as a mouse, and make functionality available only through event handlers for those devices. Some users interacting with a web browser may be doing so by voice,
19:24:11 [AllanJ]
keyboard, mouse or another input technology or a combination of any
19:24:14 [AllanJ]
of these. No matter how the user is controlling the user agent, he or
19:24:15 [AllanJ]
she must be able to activate any of the event handlers regardless of
19:24:16 [AllanJ]
the interaction technology being used.
19:24:29 [Henny]
SH: We just need to make them consistent.
19:24:57 [Henny]
Greg: Maybe we should postpone the discussion.
19:25:27 [Henny]
Greg: If we change from event handlers to something else we need to revisit this.
19:26:03 [Henny]
JA: This is a way to back into it. Look at the intent then phrase how we do our SC. It's a good start.
19:26:19 [Henny]
JA: Anyone got any objections to the intent text?
19:26:28 [Henny]
All: All looks good.
19:27:19 [AllanJ]
action: jeanne to add
19:27:19 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-256 - Add [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2009-12-10].
19:27:21 [AllanJ]
Intent of Success Criterion 4.2.2
19:27:22 [AllanJ]
>Although it should not do so, some Web content is designed to work only with certain input devices, such as a mouse, and make functionality available only through event handlers for those devices. Some users interacting with a web browser may be doing so by voice,
19:27:24 [AllanJ]
keyboard, mouse or another input technology or a combination of any
19:27:25 [AllanJ]
of these. No matter how the user is controlling the user agent, he or
19:27:27 [AllanJ]
she must be able to activate any of the event handlers regardless of
19:27:29 [AllanJ]
the interaction technology being used.
19:27:30 [AllanJ]
Examples of Success Criterion 4.2.2:
19:27:32 [AllanJ]
A user who cannot use a mouse needs to activate a flyout menu that
19:27:34 [AllanJ]
normally appears OnMouseOver. The user should be able to navigate to
19:27:35 [AllanJ]
a link and activate it using keyboard shortcuts.
19:27:36 [AllanJ]
Related Resources for Success Criterion 4.2.2:
19:27:38 [AllanJ]
N/A
19:27:39 [AllanJ]
to the implementation draft
19:29:56 [Greg]
This version:
19:29:58 [Greg]
http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-UAAG20-20090723/
19:29:59 [Greg]
Latest version:
19:30:01 [Greg]
http://www.w3.org/TR/UAAG20/
19:30:11 [AllanJ]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2009/ED-UAAG20-20091105/
19:31:05 [Zakim]
-Kim
19:31:06 [Zakim]
-??P5
19:31:06 [Zakim]
-sharper
19:31:14 [Zakim]
-Greg
19:31:18 [Zakim]
-AllanJ
19:31:20 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended
19:31:21 [Zakim]
Attendees were AllanJ, Jeanne, mhakkinen, +1.425.895.aaaa, Greg, Jan, +1.617.325.aabb, Kim, sharper
19:31:48 [Henny]
Henny has left #ua
19:34:02 [sharper]
sharper has left #ua
19:35:30 [AllanJ]
action: jeanne to add the following to the implementation draft -- Intent of Success Criterion 4.2.2 -- Although it should not do so, some Web content is designed to work only with certain input devices, such as a mouse, and make functionality available only through event handlers for those devices. Some users interacting with a web browser may be doing so by voice, keyboard, mouse or...
19:35:30 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-257 - Add the following to the implementation draft -- Intent of Success Criterion 4.2.2 -- Although it should not do so, some Web content is designed to work only with certain input devices, such as a mouse, and make functionality available only through event handlers for those devices. Some users interacting with a web browser may be doing so by voice, keyboard, mouse or... [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2009-12-10].
19:35:32 [AllanJ]
...another input technology or a combination of any of these. No matter how the user is controlling the user agent, he or she must be able to activate any of the event handlers regardless of the interaction technology being used. --- Examples of Success Criterion 4.2.2: A user who cannot use a mouse needs to activate a flyout menu thatnormally appears OnMouseOver. The user should be able...
19:35:33 [AllanJ]
...to navigate to a link and activate it using keyboard shortcuts.
19:36:08 [AllanJ]
CLOSE ACTION-256
19:36:08 [trackbot]
ACTION-256 Add closed
19:36:09 [mhakkinen]
mhakkinen has left #ua
19:36:57 [AllanJ]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:36:57 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/12/03-ua-minutes.html AllanJ
19:37:06 [AllanJ]
rrsagent, let logs public
19:37:06 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'let logs public', AllanJ. Try /msg RRSAgent help
19:37:15 [AllanJ]
rrsagent, set logs public
19:37:37 [AllanJ]
zakim, please part
19:37:37 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #ua
19:38:22 [AllanJ]
rrsagent, draft minutes
19:38:22 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/12/03-ua-minutes.html AllanJ
19:38:56 [AllanJ]
rrsagent, please part
19:38:56 [RRSAgent]
I see 9 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/12/03-ua-actions.rdf :
19:38:56 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Jim to make agenda item for creating UAAG video [1]
19:38:56 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/12/03-ua-irc#T18-23-30
19:38:56 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Mark to include greg, jan comments and title change for 4.9.6 [2]
19:38:56 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/12/03-ua-irc#T18-28-26
19:38:56 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: MH to include greg, jan comments and title change for 4.9.6 [3]
19:38:56 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/12/03-ua-irc#T18-28-36
19:38:56 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JA to write intent and examples 4.9.c [4]
19:38:56 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/12/03-ua-irc#T18-34-06
19:38:56 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Jim to rewrite 4.9.c to incorporate resizing specific items without loosing access to information or functionality. [5]
19:38:56 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/12/03-ua-irc#T18-48-58
19:38:56 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Jeanne to add new wording for 4.2, see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2009OctDec/0079.html [6]
19:38:56 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/12/03-ua-irc#T19-16-46
19:38:56 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Jim to work with Greg (and ping James Craig) to develop implementation stuff for 4.2 [7]
19:38:56 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/12/03-ua-irc#T19-18-57
19:38:56 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jeanne to add [8]
19:38:56 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/12/03-ua-irc#T19-27-19
19:38:56 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jeanne to add the following to the implementation draft -- Intent of Success Criterion 4.2.2 -- Although it should not do so, some Web content is designed to work only with certain input devices, such as a mouse, and make functionality available only through event handlers for those devices. Some users interacting with a web browser may be doing so by voice, keyboard, mouse or... [9]
19:38:56 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/12/03-ua-irc#T19-35-30