15:35:49 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdfa
15:35:49 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/12/03-rdfa-irc
15:35:53 <manu> zakim, this will be rdfa
15:35:53 <Zakim> ok, manu; I see SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM scheduled to start in 25 minutes
15:36:11 <manu> scribenick: manu
15:36:23 <manu> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Dec/0026.html
15:36:35 <manu> Previous: http://www.w3.org/2009/11/19-rdfa-minutes.html
15:36:50 <manu> Present: Manu_Sporny
15:36:58 <manu> Chair: Manu_Sporny
15:37:10 <manu> rrsagent, make logs public
15:37:21 <manu> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:37:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/12/03-rdfa-minutes.html manu
15:38:16 <manu> Meeting: RDFa in XHTML Task Force
15:53:17 <markbirbeck> markbirbeck has joined #rdfa
15:57:23 <manu> Present+ Mark Birbeck
15:57:30 <manu> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:57:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/12/03-rdfa-minutes.html manu
15:58:05 <manu> s/Mark Birbeck/Mark_Birbeck/
15:58:07 <manu> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:58:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/12/03-rdfa-minutes.html manu
15:59:04 <Zakim> SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has now started
15:59:10 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:59:25 <manu> zakim, I am +[IPcaller]
15:59:25 <Zakim> sorry, manu, I do not see a party named '+[IPcaller]'
15:59:29 <manu> zakim, I am +IPcaller
15:59:29 <Zakim> sorry, manu, I do not see a party named '+IPcaller'
15:59:33 <manu> zakim, I am IPcaller
15:59:33 <Zakim> ok, manu, I now associate you with [IPcaller]
15:59:38 <Steven> Steven has joined #rdfa
16:00:04 <ShaneM> ShaneM has joined #rdfa
16:00:32 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
16:00:41 <Zakim> +McCarron
16:00:47 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
16:00:49 <Zakim> +Ivan
16:01:15 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
16:01:29 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
16:01:34 <Zakim> +Steven
16:01:36 <markbirbeck> zakim, code?
16:02:02 <Zakim> the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck
16:02:44 <manu> Present+ Shane_McCarron
16:02:51 <manu> Present+ Ivan_Herman
16:03:32 <Zakim> +??P36
16:03:34 <markbirbeck> zakim, i am ?
16:03:42 <manu> Topic: Action Items
16:03:51 <Zakim> +markbirbeck; got it
16:03:53 <manu> ACTION: Manu to ask somebody to draft errata text, clarifying that prefixes cannot be '_' character [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/11/12-rdfa-minutes.html#action10]
16:03:55 <manu> -- done
16:04:20 <manu> ACTION: Mark to author URIs in @about, @rel, @rev, @typeof and @datatype spec text [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/11/12-rdfa-minutes.html#action09]
16:04:24 <manu> -- done
16:04:40 <manu> Mark: Yes, that's done... finding link now.
16:05:12 <manu> ACTION: Someone let Ivan know what Open Document Format reference to use in the charter [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/11/19-rdfa-minutes.html#action08]
16:05:16 <manu> -- done
16:05:25 <manu> ACTION: Manu to aggressively push review of test cases via mailing list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/29-rdfa-minutes.html#action08]
16:05:29 <manu> -- continues
16:05:53 <markbirbeck> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Nov/0081.html
16:06:01 <manu> ACTION: Manu to try and find other interested parties in RDFa WG. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/22-rdfa-minutes.html#action08]
16:06:09 <manu> -- continues
16:07:42 <manu> Topic: RDFa WG charter status
16:08:20 <manu> Manu: How is the process going?
16:08:30 <manu> Ivan: Formally, charter is under review
16:08:36 <manu> Ivan: Waiting to hear back on comments.
16:08:59 <manu> Ivan: It is based on those reviews that the RDFa WG is formed or not
16:09:08 <manu> Ivan: I think things are going well
16:09:34 <manu> Ivan: Want to get official vote request by the end of next week... but it's up to the reviewers to get back to us.
16:10:22 <manu> Ivan: The charter starts the group on Feb 1st
16:10:28 <manu> Manu: Should we meet in Jan?
16:10:54 <manu> Ivan: No reason why we shouldn't meet informally.
16:11:03 <manu> Shane: Actually, XHTML2 continues until we close the work we're doing.
16:11:12 <manu> Ivan: So, we can meet formally in January.
16:11:41 <manu> Topic: @vocab discussion
16:12:20 <manu> Manu: What are thoughts on moving forward on this?
16:12:30 <manu> Manu: Do we want to ask for proposals now?
16:12:58 <manu> Mark: Interesting that Toby and Ivan are implementing this stuff straight away.
16:13:23 <manu> Mark: Toby implemented a way of not requiring a colon
16:14:14 <manu> Mark: That's good, but also comes with downside of solidifying ideas that we may not be the direction we want to go.
16:15:01 <manu> Mark: The whole @profile issue is still there.
16:15:11 <manu> Mark: Maybe we can do content negotiation? 
16:15:38 <manu> Mark: Maybe the thing at the end of the URI could be anything? like have an RDFa document or JSON?
16:15:57 <manu> Mark: We may want to see if we're happy with the general idea of prefix-less CURIE
16:16:06 <ivan> q+
16:16:23 <manu> Mark: Then I think the second step is how to give somebody a list of how to define these tokens externally.
16:16:27 <manu> ack ivan
16:16:44 <manu> Ivan: So, just to clarify - next/prev/stylesheet would all be considered "tokens"
16:17:19 <manu> Ivan: So, what we are trying to find is how to define those reserved words.
16:18:50 <manu> Ivan: XHTML is the only one that has these reserved words, SVG doesn't?
16:18:54 <manu> Manu: Not sure that's true
16:19:08 <manu> Steven: Yes, not clear in the SVG Tiny 1.2 spec.
16:19:41 <ivan> q+
16:20:04 <manu> Manu: We might want to just do some spec text, then?
16:20:30 <ivan> q-
16:20:47 <manu> Mark: Might be good to discuss some other points first?
16:21:15 <ivan> q+
16:21:53 <Steven> zakim, mute me
16:21:53 <Zakim> Steven should now be muted
16:22:21 <manu> Mark: So, we got to a certain point with the discussion with Ben - whether you regard a reserved word as a relative URI or a token
16:23:15 <manu> Mark: Both will work, if there is no token defined - it's a relative URI, if a token is defined, we use that.
16:24:39 <Steven> I think the fact that we have relative URIs and keywords in the same position makes it harder to find a solution
16:26:17 <manu> Mark: With this recent change to allow URIs everywhere, we've got a few more options.
16:26:25 <manu> Manu: I'm concerned about intermediate formats.
16:27:34 <manu> Manu: What happens when you have vocab="http://example.org/terms" property="foo" and you can't resolve "http://example.org/terms" ?
16:29:12 <manu> Mark: Well, you generate a triple with "http://example.org/terms#foo" and perhaps resolve that in the future.
16:30:38 <manu> Mark: Well, Ben mentioned that "foo" would be placed in the default namespace... which we didn't really want.
16:30:46 <manu> Ivan: my problem is a bit more fundamental than that.
16:30:59 <manu> Ivan: I'm not fully convinced that we need to go down that route...
16:31:18 <manu> Ivan: none of these solutions seem to be simple (for an implementer) - still not convinced that we need to do that.
16:31:50 <ShaneM> zakim, mccarron is ShaneM
16:31:50 <Zakim> +ShaneM; got it
16:31:58 <markbirbeck> q+
16:32:02 <manu> Ivan: When we go to other dialects of SVG - I don't see what the problem we're trying to solve for those other languages are...
16:32:02 <ivan> q-
16:32:09 <manu> ack shaneM
16:32:27 <manu> ack markbirbeck
16:32:46 <manu> Mark: The problem is about trying to get Microformats-style simplicity for markup.
16:32:53 <manu> Manu: Yes
16:33:14 <manu> Mark: It could potentially give RDFa the ability to do everything good that Microformats does in a way that is rigorous.
16:33:38 <manu> Mark: The good things about Microformats is that it's easy to understand. Quick to get something up and going.
16:34:11 <manu> Mark: The second thing that is related is that you get people like Google that have one uber-vocabulary.
16:34:26 <Steven> q=
16:34:31 <Steven> Q+
16:34:34 <ivan> q+
16:34:53 <manu> Mark: It's the ability to just stick a @profile at the top of the document rather than 12 namespaces, is useful for authors.
16:34:58 <manu> ack Steven
16:35:11 <manu> Steven: i am definitely a big fan of simplicity of authoring.
16:35:38 <manu> q+ a vocal minority don't like prefixes
16:36:17 <manu> Steven: There are good proposals for automatic namespaces by Liam et. al
16:36:20 <manu> ack ivan
16:37:07 <manu> Ivan: I agree with Steven on the point that @tokens become less important when we have a mechanism for defining prefixes/tokens.
16:37:28 <markbirbeck> q+
16:37:29 <manu> Ivan: If we have that, then I think we can forget about this @token issue, except for the XHTML tokens, which are included.
16:37:31 <manu> q+
16:37:39 <manu> zakim, IPcaller is manu
16:37:39 <Zakim> +manu; got it
16:37:48 <manu> ack markbirbeck
16:37:50 <ShaneM> q+ to speak for being able to define new reserver words
16:38:23 <manu> Mark: If there is a URI mapping defined, then using it in an attribute that can take a CURIE, even without a colon, is sufficient.
16:38:57 <manu> Ivan: if we have a token/keyword without a colon, what do we do with it.
16:38:59 <manu> q-
16:39:05 <manu> ack IPcaller
16:39:10 <manu> ack [IPcaller]
16:39:20 <markbirbeck> @xmlns:dc="http://xyz"
16:39:21 <manu> Mark: So, let me give an example...
16:39:27 <markbirbeck> dc:creator
16:39:32 <markbirbeck> dc:
16:39:51 <markbirbeck> @xmlns:creator="http://xyz#creator"
16:39:53 <manu> q+
16:39:55 <markbirbeck> creator:
16:40:28 <markbirbeck> property="creator"
16:41:31 <manu> Mark: We can still argue that you don't need @tokens or you do - but this is a very tiny change.
16:41:57 <manu> Ivan: So, I could create a ton of xmlns:xyz for all DC terms.
16:42:18 <manu> Ivan: This make sense only if there is a way to specify those xmlns elsewhere.
16:42:24 <markbirbeck> <html
16:42:25 <markbirbeck> xmlns:Agent="http://purl.org/dc/terms/Agent"
16:42:25 <markbirbeck> xmlns:Person="http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/Person"
16:42:26 <markbirbeck> xmlns:title="http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/title"
16:42:26 <markbirbeck> xmlns:fn="http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/name"
16:42:26 <markbirbeck> >
16:42:28 <markbirbeck>   <div
16:42:29 <markbirbeck>   about="http://www.ivan-herman.net/me"
16:42:31 <markbirbeck>   typeof="Person Agent"
16:42:33 <markbirbeck>  >
16:42:35 <markbirbeck>     <h1>
16:42:38 <markbirbeck>       <span property="title">Dr</span>
16:42:39 <markbirbeck>       <span property="fn">Ivan Herman</span>
16:42:41 <markbirbeck>     </h1>
16:42:44 <markbirbeck>   </div>
16:42:45 <markbirbeck> </html>
16:43:12 <manu> Mark: if we go for this small change, it still doesn't matter how we get those URI mappings.
16:43:24 <manu> ack ShaneM
16:43:24 <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to speak for being able to define new reserver words
16:43:51 <manu> Shane: I don't have a problem with this @token proposal.
16:44:14 <manu> Shane: Without having an external mechanism, it's not terribly useful.
16:44:30 <manu> Shane: In todays spec, we have these things called "reserved words"
16:44:38 <manu> Shane: Those only work for @rel/@rev
16:45:01 <manu> Shane: That's fine.
16:45:24 <manu> Shane: So, we're extending these to all CURIE-aware attributes?
16:46:08 <manu> Mark: Not necessarily - we have this new mechanism for @property for resolving reserved words/CURIEs.
16:46:39 <manu> Shane: So, putting on my DAISY hat, they want to be able to define reserved words.
16:46:51 <manu> Shane: We still need to be able to have a way to change the default collection of reserved words.
16:47:04 <ivan> q+
16:47:06 <manu> ack manu
16:48:51 <markbirbeck> q+
16:49:15 <manu> Manu: We still don't have a solution for defining extended reserved words.
16:50:06 <ShaneM> aside: what if I have multiple profile references and there are collisions after taking the union of the prefix mappings?  Last takes precedence?
16:50:36 <manu> Ivan: Let's say we have a @profile - we could pull @tokens in from an external document.
16:50:39 <manu> ack markbirbeck
16:50:47 <manu> Mark: yes, agree with Ivan 
16:51:01 <ShaneM> q+ to say that I dont want to rely on these external namespace proposals.  we are too tied to namespaces already!
16:51:13 <ivan> q-
16:51:42 <manu> Mark: With this minor change, it helps us solve the other Microformats-like-markup problem.
16:52:07 <ShaneM> I want a "prefix import mechanism" not a "namespace import mechanism"
16:52:20 <manu> ack ShaneM
16:52:20 <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to say that I dont want to rely on these external namespace proposals.  we are too tied to namespaces already!
16:52:33 <manu> q+
16:52:54 <markbirbeck> q+
16:53:16 <manu> ack manu
16:57:29 <manu> Topic: "On Hold" Test Cases 142 and 154
16:58:31 <manu> ACTION: Mark to generate spec text for @token and @prefix
16:58:36 <ShaneM> I suddenly grok why @prefix is a bad name
16:59:13 <manu> ACTION: Mark to generate spec text for pulling in external vocabulary documents
16:59:26 <manu> ACTION: Manu to generate spec text for pulling in external vocabulary documents.
16:59:32 <ShaneM> @cmap="token URI"
16:59:38 <ShaneM> where cmap == curie mapping
17:00:01 <manu> http://rdfa.digitalbazaar.com/test-suite/
17:00:06 <markbirbeck> q-
17:02:35 <manu> <p xmlns:xml="http://www.w3.org/XML/1998/namespace" property="xml:test">Test</p>
17:03:16 <manu> Manu: Thoughts?
17:03:37 <manu> Shane: keep it on hold.
17:03:58 <manu> Ivan: Maybe we could disallow it in the spec?
17:04:46 <manu> Mark: It's an edge case that we don't refer to.
17:05:16 <manu> ACTION: Manu to get in touch with LibXML developers about TC 142.
17:05:36 <manu>   <span xmlns:test="http://example.org/error/" property="testŀ:test">Test</span>
17:06:27 <manu> Ivan: So I can only have ASCII characters there?
17:06:31 <manu> Shane: Yes.
17:10:10 <Zakim> -Steven
17:10:11 <Zakim> -ShaneM
17:10:13 <Zakim> -markbirbeck
17:10:15 <Zakim> -Ivan
17:10:39 <manu> Manu: Ok, so this is an invalid XHTML test, but we will be revisiting this issue for HTML4 and HTML5
17:10:50 <manu> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:10:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/12/03-rdfa-minutes.html manu
17:11:19 <Zakim> -manu
17:11:21 <Zakim> SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has ended
17:11:23 <Zakim> Attendees were Ivan, Steven, markbirbeck, ShaneM, manu
17:11:32 <ShaneM> ShaneM has left #rdfa
17:12:22 <ivan> ivan has left #rdfa
17:13:13 <manu> Present+ Steven_Pemberton
17:13:20 <manu> Regrets: Ben_Adida
17:20:56 <manu> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:20:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/12/03-rdfa-minutes.html manu
17:26:16 <manu> zakim, bye
17:26:16 <Zakim> Zakim has left #rdfa
17:26:20 <manu> rrsagent, bye
17:26:20 <RRSAgent> I see 9 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/12/03-rdfa-actions.rdf :
17:26:20 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Manu to ask somebody to draft errata text, clarifying that prefixes cannot be '_' character [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/11/12-rdfa-minutes.html#action10] [1]
17:26:20 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/12/03-rdfa-irc#T16-03-53
17:26:20 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Mark to author URIs in @about, @rel, @rev, @typeof and @datatype spec text [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/11/12-rdfa-minutes.html#action09] [2]
17:26:20 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/12/03-rdfa-irc#T16-04-20
17:26:20 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Someone let Ivan know what Open Document Format reference to use in the charter [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/11/19-rdfa-minutes.html#action08] [3]
17:26:20 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/12/03-rdfa-irc#T16-05-12
17:26:20 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Manu to aggressively push review of test cases via mailing list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/29-rdfa-minutes.html#action08] [4]
17:26:20 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/12/03-rdfa-irc#T16-05-25
17:26:20 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Manu to try and find other interested parties in RDFa WG. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/22-rdfa-minutes.html#action08] [5]
17:26:20 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/12/03-rdfa-irc#T16-06-01
17:26:20 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Mark to generate spec text for @token and @prefix [6]
17:26:20 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/12/03-rdfa-irc#T16-58-31
17:26:20 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Mark to generate spec text for pulling in external vocabulary documents [7]
17:26:20 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/12/03-rdfa-irc#T16-59-13
17:26:20 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Manu to generate spec text for pulling in external vocabulary documents. [8]
17:26:20 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/12/03-rdfa-irc#T16-59-26
17:26:20 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Manu to get in touch with LibXML developers about TC 142. [9]
17:26:20 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/12/03-rdfa-irc#T17-05-16