IRC log of html-wg on 2009-12-03

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:58:51 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #html-wg
16:58:51 [RRSAgent]
logging to
16:58:53 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
16:58:53 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #html-wg
16:58:55 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be HTML
16:58:55 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot, I see HTML_WG()12:00PM already started
16:58:56 [trackbot]
Meeting: HTML Weekly Teleconference
16:58:56 [trackbot]
Date: 03 December 2009
16:59:03 [dsinger_]
zakim, mute dsinger
16:59:03 [Zakim]
dsinger should now be muted
16:59:12 [Zakim]
16:59:20 [cardona507]
zakim, mute cardona507
16:59:20 [Zakim]
sorry, cardona507, I do not know which phone connection belongs to cardona507
16:59:26 [janina]
janina has joined #html-wg
16:59:36 [Zakim]
- +1.831.454.aaaa
16:59:48 [dsinger_]
zakim, who is here?
16:59:48 [Zakim]
On the phone I see dsinger (muted), Rich, Gregory_Rosmaita
16:59:50 [rubys1]
rubys1 has joined #html-wg
16:59:50 [Zakim]
On IRC I see janina, Zakim, RRSAgent, richardschwerdtfe, dsinger_, Stevef, MichaelC, cardona507, myakura, mjs, Laura, LeifHS, oedipus, aroben, miketaylr, kliehm, MikeSmith, gavin,
16:59:53 [janina]
zakim, call janina
16:59:54 [Zakim]
... tlr, tH, JoePeck, ROBOd, trackbot, Julian, karl, dsinger, krijnh, shepazu, anne, Yudai, gavin_, hsivonen, Dashiva, jmb, inimino, syp, pimpbot, hober, jgraham, matt, Hixie,
16:59:56 [Zakim]
... gsnedders, Philip, CIA-1, ed_work, xover
16:59:57 [Zakim]
ok, janina; the call is being made
16:59:57 [Zakim]
17:00:01 [Zakim]
17:00:39 [weinig]
weinig has joined #html-wg
17:00:40 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, call Mike-Mobile
17:00:40 [Zakim]
ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
17:00:41 [Zakim]
17:00:48 [Zakim]
17:00:52 [Zakim]
+ +1.831.454.aabb
17:01:10 [cardona507]
zakim, +1.831.454.aabb is me
17:01:10 [Zakim]
+cardona507; got it
17:01:11 [Stevef]
zakim, [IPcaller] is me
17:01:11 [Zakim]
+Stevef; got it
17:01:12 [Zakim]
+ +1.617.324.aacc
17:01:14 [Zakim]
17:01:17 [cardona507]
zakim, mute me
17:01:17 [Zakim]
cardona507 should now be muted
17:01:22 [MichaelC]
zakim, aacc is Michael_Cooper
17:01:22 [Zakim]
+Michael_Cooper; got it
17:02:22 [Zakim]
+ +49.251.280.aadd
17:02:53 [Julian]
Zakim, +49.251.280.aadd is me
17:02:53 [Zakim]
+Julian; got it
17:03:10 [Zakim]
17:03:17 [Zakim]
17:04:17 [Zakim]
+ +1.415.595.aaee
17:04:21 [Zakim]
17:04:31 [mjs]
Zakim, +1.415.595.aaee is me
17:04:31 [Zakim]
+mjs; got it
17:04:39 [Zakim]
+ +1.715.718.aaff
17:05:12 [mjs]
ny volunteers to scribe?
17:05:36 [Zakim]
- +1.715.718.aaff
17:05:37 [rubys1]
zakim, pick a script
17:05:38 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'pick a script', rubys1
17:05:43 [mjs]
Zakim, choose victim
17:05:43 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'choose victim', mjs
17:05:46 [rubys1]
zakim, pick a scribe
17:05:46 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Michael_Cooper
17:05:49 [oedipus]
zakim, victim?
17:05:49 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, oedipus.
17:06:18 [MichaelC]
scribe: MichaelC
17:06:38 [rubys1]
trackbot, start meeting
17:06:40 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
17:06:42 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be HTML
17:06:42 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot, I see HTML_WG()12:00PM already started
17:06:43 [trackbot]
Meeting: HTML Weekly Teleconference
17:06:43 [trackbot]
Date: 03 December 2009
17:06:44 [li]
li has joined #html-wg
17:07:14 [dsinger_]
zakim, unmute dsinger
17:07:14 [Zakim]
dsinger should no longer be muted
17:07:18 [MichaelC]
17:07:19 [pimpbot]
Title: {agenda} HTML WG telcon 2009-12-3: issues, action items, calls for consensus/proposals, task force reports from Maciej Stachowiak on 2009-12-02 ( from October to December 2009) (at
17:07:44 [MichaelC]
chair: Maciej_Stachowiak
17:07:59 [dsinger_]
zakim, mute dsinger
17:07:59 [Zakim]
dsinger should now be muted
17:07:59 [mjs]
trackbot: close ACTION-130
17:08:00 [trackbot]
ACTION-130 Review status of video codec positions closed
17:08:11 [MichaelC]
topic: Review of due and overdue action items
17:08:13 [Zakim]
+ +1.715.718.aagg
17:08:33 [MichaelC]
ACTION-130 done
17:09:25 [Laura]
img Element Change Proposal
17:09:27 [Laura]
17:09:27 [MichaelC]
ACTION-131: Change proposal sent
17:09:27 [trackbot]
ACTION-131 Draft ALT spec notes added
17:09:28 [pimpbot]
Title: HTML/ChangeProposals/ImgElement20091203 - ESW Wiki (at
17:09:29 [pimpbot]
Title: change proposal:modification to section the img element from Steven Faulkner on 2009-12-03 ( from December 2009) (at
17:09:33 [li]
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17:10:02 [MichaelC]
sf: <summarizes>
17:10:10 [mjs]
trackbot: close ACTION-131
17:10:10 [trackbot]
ACTION-131 Draft ALT spec closed
17:10:11 [MichaelC]
ms: can close action now that proposal posted
17:10:43 [gavin]
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17:10:56 [MichaelC]
ACTION-138 still ongoing
17:11:07 [Zakim]
17:11:11 [MichaelC]
sf: Discussed matrix in A11Y TF just before this call
17:11:21 [Laura]
Zakim, aagg is me
17:11:22 [Zakim]
+Laura; got it
17:11:33 [Zakim]
17:11:38 [MichaelC]
actively working on in TF
17:11:49 [MichaelC]
ms: timeline to completion?
17:11:58 [MichaelC]
sf: Today was first discussion in TF, not sure of timeline
17:12:14 [MichaelC]
perhaps 1 month? should coordinate with A11Y TF facilitators
17:12:16 [oedipus]
17:12:17 [pimpbot]
Title: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference -- 03 Dec 2009 (at
17:12:50 [MichaelC]
MikeS: Planning to discuss over next week in A11Y TF
17:12:51 [kliehm]
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17:13:04 [MichaelC]
could give an update next week, though it probably won't be complete then
17:13:23 [MichaelC]
Maciej: this has bumped week to week for months, would prefer to have a single deadline
17:13:47 [MichaelC]
Gregory: Task force just starting...
17:14:18 [MichaelC]
Janina: Early-mid January is earliest feasible time
17:14:34 [MichaelC]
MikeS: January 14 2010
17:15:03 [MichaelC]
SteveF: much work already done, some ready for review now
17:15:40 [MichaelC]
Maciej: helpful to post what you have as soon as possible
17:15:50 [MichaelC]
know some issues in play that good to discuss
17:16:06 [MichaelC]
updating due date of action
17:16:44 [MichaelC]
ACTION-158 not complete yet
17:17:04 [MichaelC]
SteveF: action from TPAC, haven't gotten to yet
17:17:31 [MichaelC]
need extra time to work on some things, and also want to bring to A11Y TF
17:17:41 [Zakim]
17:17:56 [MichaelC]
Maciej: deadline?
17:18:06 [MichaelC]
SteveF: 31 December 2010
17:18:07 [masinter]
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17:18:23 [MichaelC]
topic: Review of submitted change proposals
17:18:42 [oedipus]
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17:19:13 [mhakkinen]
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17:19:22 [richardschwerdtfe]
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17:19:33 [cardona507]
i have a question
17:19:38 [MichaelC]
==ISSUE-4 (html-versioning)==
17:19:41 [cardona507]
I am on mute so I will type
17:20:01 [cardona507]
i am kind of unlclear - is <!doctype html> stll ok?
17:20:09 [masinter]
17:20:15 [masinter]
and recommended in most situations
17:20:19 [cardona507]
thanks larry
17:20:23 [Zakim]
17:20:31 [dsinger]
zakim, [apple] has dsinger
17:20:31 [Zakim]
+dsinger; got it
17:20:36 [MichaelC]
Maciej: change proposal makes versioning optional but not mandatory, so yes to above question
17:20:37 [Zakim]
17:20:55 [MichaelC]
==ISSUE-30 (longdesc)==
17:21:19 [MichaelC]
Maciej: Charles submitted a change proposal a while back
17:21:30 [MichaelC]
makes longdesc nonconforming but optional
17:21:38 [MichaelC]
==ISSUE-32 (table-summary)==
17:21:51 [MichaelC]
Maciej: Cynthia posted a proposal with a number of changes
17:22:00 [MichaelC]
chairs have given structural feedback, expect revision soon
17:22:18 [MichaelC]
==ISSUE-56 (urls-webarch)==
17:22:44 [MichaelC]
Maciej: Proposal to change normative references
17:22:50 [MichaelC]
some discussion has taken place
17:23:40 [MichaelC]
speaker1: Suggest people join IRI mailing list to help resolve some of the issues
17:23:49 [MichaelC]
==ISSUE-76 (Microdata/RDFa)==
17:23:53 [masinter]
17:24:22 [MichaelC]
Maciej: Proposal was to publish separate draft
17:24:33 [MichaelC]
now there's a propsal to retain within HTML
17:24:39 [MichaelC]
there's been discussion on the mailing list
17:24:41 [oedipus]
my phone is dying - will rejoin soon
17:24:45 [Zakim]
17:24:47 [Julian]
17:25:09 [MichaelC]
speaker2: Was proposal to move to separate draft, or just remove altogether?
17:25:30 [MichaelC]
Maciej: Proposal was to move to external document but not remove altogether
17:25:37 [MichaelC]
==ISSUE-83 (dt-dd-semantics)==
17:26:07 [MichaelC]
Maciej: Proposal to not use dt/dd for <figure>
17:26:17 [MichaelC]
proposed a new element in place
17:26:23 [MichaelC]
chairs have sent structural feedback
17:26:40 [mjs]
17:26:41 [pimpbot]
Title: Change Proposal Status (at
17:27:15 [MichaelC]
Maciej: above link shows status is change proposals in play
17:27:24 [MichaelC]
probably won't go through individually each week
17:27:32 [MichaelC]
just new ones going forward
17:27:46 [Julian]
17:27:47 [MichaelC]
speaker3: What are next steps?
17:28:05 [Julian]
17:28:27 [MichaelC]
Maciej: chairs to review level of consensus and strength of arguments
17:28:45 [MichaelC]
help decide which ones to advance
17:29:01 [MichaelC]
Julian: What is a change proposal that proposes not doing anything?
17:29:27 [MichaelC]
Maciej: Originated with ones in response to editor action on a bug entry
17:30:01 [MichaelC]
Julian: Would there be counter-proposals for each proposal?
17:30:18 [MichaelC]
Maciej: We might expect this
17:30:30 [Julian]
s/Julian/Larry/ (in the last two lines)
17:30:49 [MichaelC]
Larry: Is this part of the documented decision process
17:30:58 [MichaelC]
s/Julian: Would/Larry: Would/
17:31:07 [MichaelC]
s/Julian: What/Larry: What/
17:31:27 [Zakim]
17:31:35 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, call Mike-Mobile
17:31:35 [Zakim]
ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
17:31:37 [Zakim]
17:31:46 [MichaelC]
Maciej: <scribe missed>, but let's take questions offline
17:32:10 [MichaelC]
topic: Review of Chair calls for consensus / proposals
17:32:25 [MichaelC]
==ISSUE-7 (video-codecs)==
17:32:44 [MichaelC]
If we don't receive change proposal by today (3 Dec) will close issue without prejudice
17:33:17 [MichaelC]
speaker4: There was a proposal to move video element to a separate document
17:33:28 [MichaelC]
Maciej: haven't yet received a formal change proposal on that
17:33:38 [MichaelC]
people can submit if they want, by end of today
17:33:42 [Laura]
Change Proposal Template:
17:33:43 [pimpbot]
Title: HTML/ChangeProposalTemplate - ESW Wiki (at
17:34:12 [MichaelC]
speaker4: thought that would be a way to resolve the codec issue on a different schedule from the rest of HTML
17:34:32 [MichaelC]
==ISSUE-63 (origin-req-scope)==
17:34:51 [MichaelC]
Maciej: due today 3 Dec, will close without prejudice if no change proposal received
17:35:02 [MichaelC]
==ISSUE-76 (Microdata/RDFa) counter-proposals==
17:35:13 [MichaelC]
maciej: received one counter-proposal yesterday
17:35:28 [MichaelC]
17:35:39 [MichaelC]
Maciej: Need change proposals by 17 Dec
17:35:55 [MichaelC]
17:35:57 [MichaelC]
Maciej: Need change proposals by 17 Dec
17:36:05 [MichaelC]
==ISSUE-27 (rel-ownership)==
17:36:10 [MichaelC]
Maciej: Need change proposals by 17 Dec
17:36:17 [frankolivier]
frankolivier has joined #html-wg
17:36:18 [MichaelC]
Paul Cotton has volunteered to submit one
17:36:30 [MichaelC]
==ISSUE-87 (attr-normalization)==
17:36:34 [MichaelC]
Maciej: Need change proposals by 17 Dec
17:36:44 [MichaelC]
==ISSUE-88 (content-language-multiple)==
17:37:04 [MichaelC]
Maciej: Leif Halvard Silli has volunteered to submit a proposal by 17 Jan 2010
17:37:15 [MichaelC]
that's more than a month but the holidays intervene
17:37:33 [MichaelC]
If you care about the issues above, please take action by the deadlines
17:37:46 [MichaelC]
speaker4: Clarify closed without prejudice?
17:38:03 [Julian]
s/speaker4: Clarify/Larry: Clarify/
17:38:05 [MichaelC]
Maciej: Will close in Tracker, and won't consider the issue a blocker for advancement to LC
17:38:25 [MichaelC]
if a proposal later comes in, it can be considered
17:39:02 [MichaelC]
we need a clear proposal and rationale
17:39:10 [MichaelC]
chairs will not try to dig up old discussions
17:39:16 [MichaelC]
topic: New issues this week
17:39:21 [MichaelC]
Maciej: none we know of
17:39:30 [MichaelC]
topic: Status of task forces
17:39:49 [MichaelC]
==HTML Accessibility Task Force==
17:40:03 [MichaelC]
Janina: First teleconference was today
17:40:08 [MichaelC]
started out mostly procedural
17:40:16 [MichaelC]
then started scoping issues to review first
17:40:25 [MichaelC]
taking ARIA integration / mapping issues first
17:40:35 [MichaelC]
(relates to Steve's action discussed earlier)
17:40:45 [MichaelC]
taking 24 and 31 Dec 2009 meetings off
17:40:51 [MichaelC]
mailing list is active on a few issues
17:40:57 [MichaelC]
video sub-group is forming
17:41:22 [MichaelC]
issues and possible solutions were covered in a pre-meeting before TPAC
17:41:37 [Stevef]
17:41:39 [MichaelC]
==Testing Task Force==
17:41:53 [MichaelC]
Chris: Mailing list active
17:42:00 [MichaelC]
starting a teleconference slot
17:42:16 [MichaelC]
q+ to ask about timezone and date of meeting?
17:42:35 [MichaelC]
planning to come back in early Jan with some preliminary activity
17:42:41 [MichaelC]
meeting is 8am next week
17:43:05 [MichaelC]
<scribe missed timezone and day of week>
17:43:08 [MichaelC]
17:43:13 [masinter]
regrets next week -- during TAG meeting
17:43:19 [MichaelC]
topic: Scribe for next week
17:43:27 [MichaelC]
<the usual resounding silence>
17:43:42 [MichaelC]
topic: Other business
17:43:51 [Stevef]
17:43:52 [pimpbot]
Title: ISSUE-80 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at
17:44:08 [MichaelC]
Steve: how do we hold issues open that are being actively open?
17:44:29 [MichaelC]
Maciej: when a change proposal comes in, move issue and associated issues to open status
17:44:39 [krisk]
HTML Testing Task Force Conf Call ->
17:44:41 [pimpbot]
Title: RE: Testing Task Force Conf Call from Kris Krueger on 2009-12-03 ( from December 2009) (at
17:44:51 [MichaelC]
17:45:10 [Zakim]
17:45:11 [Zakim]
17:45:11 [Zakim]
17:45:12 [Laura]
17:45:12 [Zakim]
17:45:12 [Zakim]
17:45:13 [Zakim]
17:45:13 [Zakim]
17:45:16 [Zakim]
17:45:20 [Zakim]
17:45:23 [Zakim]
17:45:28 [Zakim]
17:45:32 [Zakim]
17:45:34 [Zakim]
17:45:35 [Zakim]
17:45:37 [Zakim]
17:45:47 [Zakim]
17:45:49 [Zakim]
HTML_WG()12:00PM has ended
17:45:51 [Zakim]
Attendees were +1.831.454.aaaa, dsinger, Rich, Gregory_Rosmaita, Janina, Sam, Mike, cardona507, Stevef, +1.617.324.aacc, kliehm, Michael_Cooper, Julian, [Microsoft], Matt_May, mjs,
17:45:53 [Zakim]
... +1.715.718.aaff, +1.715.718.aagg, li, Laura, Masinter
17:46:06 [MichaelC]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:46:06 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate MichaelC
18:07:55 [MikeSmith]
18:07:56 [pimpbot]
Title: Main Page - HTML WG Wiki (at
18:08:21 [mjs]
MikeSmith: woot!
18:08:44 [mjs]
MikeSmith: do you know if MediaWiki supports templates like we had on the ESW wiki?
18:08:56 [MikeSmith]
yeah, it does
18:09:00 [MikeSmith]
though I not sure how to do it
18:10:01 [MikeSmith]
btw, I *think* the edit perms are automatically tied by LDAP to the actual W3C database
18:10:15 [MikeSmith]
such that only members of the HTML WG can edit pages there
18:11:54 [hober]
"W3C Accounts" means the login we use for pages on behind http auth?
18:12:08 [MikeSmith]
hober: yep
18:12:23 [MikeSmith]
same username and password
18:12:27 [MikeSmith]
I believe
18:12:35 [MikeSmith]
hober: btw, great posting
18:12:38 [MikeSmith]
on your blog
18:12:42 [MikeSmith]
the most recent one
18:12:50 [hober]
hmmm. going to doesn't work.
18:12:51 [hober]
oh, thanks.
18:13:06 [hober]
it was languishing in my drafts folder for a long time, mostly-done
18:14:27 [MikeSmith]
I don't know if you saw, but I added your blog to the Planet HTML5 aggregation a while back
18:14:45 [MikeSmith]
yeah, I don't know why doesn't work
18:15:16 [MikeSmith]
but I think I can just add a redirect myself to make it redirect to the main page
18:15:59 [plh]
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18:25:52 [MikeSmith]
18:25:53 [pimpbot]
Title: Main Page - HTML5 JP IG (at
18:25:57 [MikeSmith]
for JPIG5
18:26:15 [MikeSmith]
that one is currently editable by anybody with a W3C account
18:26:33 [Dashiva]
JPIG seems like a name asking for puns
18:26:47 [MikeSmith]
yeah, that's why I like it
18:26:57 [MikeSmith]
we need a pig character as a mascot
18:27:08 [Dashiva]
And it should be a .jpg
18:27:25 [MikeSmith]
true that too
18:27:50 [MikeSmith]
we can make a pig the circled 5 symbol
18:28:02 [MikeSmith]
*pig with the
18:28:10 [Dashiva]
Like a branding mark
18:28:26 [MikeSmith]
yeah, branded pig
18:28:40 [hober]
MikeSmith: speaking of planet html5, I could provide you a feed of just my posts tagged html5 if you'd like
18:28:42 [MikeSmith]
smoking a peace pipe
18:29:58 [MikeSmith]
hober: that would be good, though maybe not worth the trouble if you've not set it up already. Because I have a filter that just causes any posts that don't have the string HTML5 or "HTML 5" in them to just be ignored
18:30:41 [hober]
ahh. ok then
18:31:28 [myakura]
MikeSmith: goody! thanks a lot!
18:33:07 [MikeSmith]
18:33:13 [myakura]
18:33:31 [MikeSmith]
I've not tried adding content in Japanese to any of our MediaWiki instances
18:33:43 [MikeSmith]
but I assume there should be no problems
18:35:26 [MikeSmith]
myakura: btw, thanks seriously a lot for doing the interpreter stuff today
18:35:36 [MikeSmith]
I hope it didn't put you on the spot
18:35:48 [MikeSmith]
but you rock mightily at thinking on your feett
18:35:50 [MikeSmith]
18:35:54 [drunknbass_work]
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18:36:26 [plh]
does the jpig5 folks need an irc channel btw?
18:36:43 [MikeSmith]
plh: we did not decide on one yet
18:37:32 [plh]
btw, selectors api is an other draft for your list I think
18:37:34 [MikeSmith]
myakura: sorry about dropping "full duplex" without a heads-up.. but I don't think most people have any idea what it means in English anyway
18:37:42 [plh]
the webapps are trying to move it to CR
18:37:43 [myakura]
MikeSmith: my pleasure. to me it was quite interesting talk.
18:37:44 [MikeSmith]
plh: yeah, good point
18:38:09 [MikeSmith]
myakura: I think I should just say "fully bidirectional network communication"
18:38:13 [MikeSmith]
or something
18:38:14 [MikeSmith]
18:38:32 [MikeSmith]
plh: understood
18:39:01 [MikeSmith]
so it would be a good time to get the JPIG a heads-up about it too
18:39:09 [MikeSmith]
and see what feedback we might collect
18:39:40 [MikeSmith]
myakura: maybe a message about Selectors API to the list?
18:40:28 [plh]
or wait until the cr is published?
18:40:38 [drunknbass_work]
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18:40:42 [MikeSmith]
or we could do that, yeah
18:40:46 [plh]
current draft is one year old.
18:41:01 [MikeSmith]
holy mackerel
18:41:09 [MikeSmith]
didn't realize it'd be that long
18:41:41 [myakura]
"W3C Working Draft 14 November 2008" wow.
18:42:03 [MikeSmith]
blast from the past
18:42:36 [plh]
you need to remove the dust before starting reading it :)
18:43:34 [plh]
though the new version won't have significant changes in it
18:43:51 [plh]
only 2 editorial updates in fact
18:45:20 [MikeSmith]
so it is in a state of near-perfection
18:45:39 [plh]
18:45:48 [MikeSmith]
OK, now redirects properly as well
18:45:49 [pimpbot]
Title: Main Page - HTML WG Wiki (at
18:46:15 [myakura]
think I did the translation (a year ago), so jpig5 folks could read it in detail.
18:46:35 [MikeSmith]
that would be good
18:52:25 [pimpbot]
planet: Take Five with HTML5: Device Orientation & Geolocation on the Nokia N900 <11> 4** How to add mime-type for <video> element on Firefox ? <11>
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weinig has joined #html-wg
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