15:55:02 RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y 15:55:02 logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/12/03-html-a11y-irc 15:55:04 RRSAgent, make logs world 15:55:04 Zakim has joined #html-a11y 15:55:06 Zakim, this will be 2119 15:55:07 Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference 15:55:07 Date: 03 December 2009 15:55:07 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes 15:56:13 WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM has now started 15:56:20 +Gregory_Rosmaita 15:56:24 Scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita 15:56:28 ScribeNick: oedipus 15:56:32 regrets: chaals,Laura_Carlson,Joshue_O_Connor,Stephane_Deschamps,Kelly_Ford,Gez_Lemon,Aurélien_Levy,Sylvia_Pfeiffer,Cynthia_Shelly,Maciej_Stachowiak, 15:56:39 + +1.650.862.aaaa 15:57:05 Stevef has joined #html-a11y 15:57:08 + +1.512.206.aabb 15:57:09 zakim, aaaa is John_Foliot 15:57:09 +John_Foliot; got it 15:57:19 AllanJ has joined #html-a11y 15:57:47 +Cooper 15:57:49 +??P1 15:58:26 zakim, ??P1 is me 15:58:26 +Stevef; got it 15:58:35 +dsinger 15:58:57 standing regrets for 1600h UTC thursdays: Laura_Carlson, Gez_Lemon, Sylvia_Pfeiffer 15:59:07 + +49.693.650.5.aacc 15:59:13 janina has joined #html-a11y 15:59:15 zakim, aabb is really AllanJ 15:59:15 +AllanJ; got it 15:59:19 Laura has joined #html-a11y 15:59:27 dsinger_ has joined #html-a11y 15:59:33 Ben has joined #html-a11y 15:59:38 zakim, mute me 15:59:38 sorry, dsinger_, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you 15:59:40 zakim, +49 is Martin_Kliehm 15:59:40 +Martin_Kliehm; got it 15:59:41 zakim, this will be a11y 15:59:41 ok, janina; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM scheduled to start in 1 minute 15:59:42 zakim, aacc is me 15:59:44 sorry, kliehm, I do not recognize a party named 'aacc' 15:59:57 zakim, who is on the phone? 15:59:58 I notice WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM has restarted 15:59:59 zakim, call janina 16:00:01 On the phone I see Gregory_Rosmaita, John_Foliot, AllanJ, Stevef, Cooper, dsinger, Martin_Kliehm 16:00:04 MRanon has joined #html-a11y 16:00:04 ok, janina; the call is being made 16:00:05 zakim, Martin is kliehm 16:00:13 +Janina 16:00:16 +kliehm; got it 16:00:28 + +1.408.307.aadd 16:00:43 + +1.617.300.aaee - is perhaps WGBH? 16:00:52 JF has joined #html-a11y 16:00:59 +??P22 16:01:00 zakim, aaee is Geoff_Freed 16:01:09 408 is eric_carlson 16:01:12 zakim, +1.408 is Eric_Carlson 16:01:26 sorry, oedipus, I do not recognize a party named 'aaee' 16:01:27 +Eric_Carlson; got it 16:01:28 zakim, ??P22 is Henny_Swan 16:01:40 Zakim, mute dsinger_ 16:01:43 +Henny_Swan; got it 16:01:52 + +1.207.388.aaff 16:01:52 zakim, +1.617.300.aaee is Geoff_Freed 16:01:59 Zakim, call Mike-Mobile 16:02:03 sorry, dsinger_, I do not know which phone connection belongs to dsinger_ 16:02:15 sorry, oedipus, I do not recognize a party named '+1.617.300.aaee' 16:02:27 ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made 16:02:28 zakim, who is on the phone? 16:02:29 +Mike 16:02:31 +??P28 16:02:56 On the phone I see Gregory_Rosmaita, John_Foliot, AllanJ, Stevef, Cooper, dsinger, kliehm, Janina, Eric_Carlson, WGBH?, Henny_Swan, +1.207.388.aaff, ??P28, Mike (muted) 16:02:56 zakim, pointer? 16:03:17 zakim, WGBH? is Geoff_Freed 16:03:22 Zakim, drop Mike 16:03:26 Zakim, mute dsinger 16:03:36 I don't understand your question, oedipus. 16:03:40 +Geoff_Freed; got it 16:03:42 -Mike 16:03:43 sorry, MikeSmith, I do not see a party named 'Mike' 16:03:49 dsinger should now be muted 16:03:53 Joshue has joined #html-a11y 16:03:53 zakim, ??P28 is Ben_Caldwell 16:04:02 +Ben_Caldwell; got it 16:04:05 +Matt 16:04:06 zakim, +1.207 is probably Marco_Ranon 16:04:09 Zakim, call Mike-Mobile 16:04:12 +Marco_Ranon?; got it 16:04:15 ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made 16:04:17 +Mike 16:04:19 zakim, I am Ben_Caldwell 16:04:22 ok, Ben, I now associate you with Ben_Caldwell 16:04:32 zakim, Matt is Matt_May 16:04:32 +Matt_May; got it 16:04:34 + +1.217.840.aagg 16:04:35 Zakim, Mike is me 16:04:35 +MikeSmith; got it 16:04:41 - +1.217.840.aagg 16:04:59 +??P38 16:05:08 the church of the subgenius 16:05:10 zakim, ??P38 is Joshue 16:05:10 +Joshue; got it 16:05:26 + +1.217.840.aahh 16:05:28 - +1.217.840.aahh 16:06:55 zakim, mute me 16:06:57 Joshue should now be muted 16:07:06 JS: cofacillitator from PFWG, MikeSmith facillitator from HTML WG, Michael Cooper staff contact for TF 16:07:20 JS: goal: sense of what we should be working on through january and in what order 16:07:23 Meeting: HTML-A11Y telecon 16:07:23 Chair: Janina_Sajka 16:07:23 agenda: this 16:07:23 agenda+ identify scribe 16:07:23 agenda+ Participation Expectations Discussion--Good Standing Draft 16:07:23 zakim, Marco is temp 16:07:23 agenda+ TF Subgroups (Canvas; Video; ...) Procedures Discussion 16:07:25 agenda+ Existing Issues Prioritization--What? Who? When? 16:07:28 agenda+ next and future meetings--December Deliverables 16:07:29 zakim, Ben is Marco_Ranon 16:07:29 +temp; got it 16:07:29 agenda+ New Business 16:07:31 agenda+ be done 16:07:35 zakim, temp is Ben_Caldwell 16:07:37 +Marco_Ranon; got it 16:07:44 +Ben_Caldwell; got it 16:07:44 i/JS: goal/topic: Getting Acquainted 16:07:51 JS: janina sajka 16:07:58 zakim, WGBH has Geoff_Freed 16:07:58 sorry, MichaelC, I do not recognize a party named 'WGBH' 16:08:02 +Rich 16:08:18 JS: please state name before speaking during first few meetings 16:08:21 jongunderson has joined #html-a11y 16:08:35 richardschwerdtfe has joined #html-a11y 16:08:43 I was disconnected from the bridge twice 16:08:46 JS: there are a number of people who cannot join call 16:08:51 standing regrets for 1600h UTC thursdays: Laura_Carlson, Gez_Lemon, Sylvia_Pfeiffer 16:08:52 mhakkinen has joined #html-a11y 16:09:21 JS: wasn't time that worked for everybody - will take stock of meeting attendance weekly 16:09:43 JS: if need to adjust meeting date/time, can do, but will try thursdays at 1600h UTC 16:10:02 topic: Participation & Expectations 16:10:13 JS: will introduce topics and open for discussion 16:10:28 JS: should expect that co-facillitators will rotate as far as chairing 16:10:34 chair: Janina_Sajka 16:10:45 + +1.217.840.aaii 16:10:48 +[IPcaller] 16:10:54 JS: primarly drawn from PF and HTML WGs but are own group 16:11:11 zakim, +1.217 is Jon_Gunderson 16:11:11 +Jon_Gunderson; got it 16:11:14 s/primarly drawn/participants primarily drawn/ 16:11:32 JS: establishing TF identity - not PF nor HTML, but HTML A11y Task Force 16:11:32 zakim, IPCaller is Markku_Hakkinen 16:11:32 +Markku_Hakkinen; got it 16:11:53 JS: co-facillitators and staff contact have had discussion - want to lay out what is expected of participants 16:12:02 JS: expect those here to be ACTIVE participants 16:12:23 JS: here to participate in decisions and discussions that will lead to HTML specs that adequately support a11y -- raison d'etre 16:12:36 JS: participate in telecons as able, through email, through wiki 16:12:47 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/ 16:13:13 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/ 16:13:25 JS: policy for TF re: good standing - based on participation 16:13:37 JS: co-facilliltators working on draft of good standing 16:13:52 JS: point is not to be bureaucratic, but efficient 16:13:58 JS: solutions-oriented work 16:14:18 regrets+ Wendy_Chisholm 16:14:43 JS: asked to create task force from PF - HTML WG agreed and offered to co-facillitate 16:15:09 dsinger__ has joined #html-a11y 16:15:13 JS: point: expedite accessibility issues, concerns, bugs, etc. 16:15:50 JS: brief statement about expectations on how TF members will conduct themselves; we are all professionals, so please conduct self with professionalism 16:16:04 JS: keep discussions and debates on the issues and specific technologies 16:16:20 JS: avoid personalities and focus on solutions and concrete suggestions 16:16:33 MS (MikeSmith) 16:16:43 MS: good summation 16:17:02 JS: quick thumbnail of good standing process 16:17:24 JS: will finish draft and send to html-a11y list for review and consensus at next thursday's meeting 16:17:29 MC (Michael Cooper) 16:17:49 MC: using W3C "good standing" process as closely to letter of W3C process as possible 16:18:05 MC: good standing = participation in some form at least once every 2 weeks 16:18:12 MC: number of channels TF uses 16:18:15 dsinger_ has changed the topic to: HTML accessibility 16:18:27 MC: email list, wiki, 16:18:37 MC: if not at telecon, reading/reviewing minutes 16:18:57 MC: important to keep all hands busy since fortunate enough to have such a large response 16:19:35 MC: if people aren't able to be active, will be marked as "not in good standing" -- effect: 1 marked as not in good standing, cannot make objection to decisions if not in good standing 16:19:53 MC: only participants in good standing can make decisions 16:20:09 MC: important to be in good standing in order to have voice in TF 16:20:31 MC: if conflicts arise, let the co-facillitators and staff contact know 16:20:52 MC: to restore good standing, all one need do is participate in TF fora 16:20:55 JS: questions? 16:21:13 JS: will conduct ourselves as the professionals we are 16:21:36 JS: TF evolving its own procedures; one aspect how to reach decisions 16:21:47 JS: can start with W3C consensus policies 16:22:11 JS: when not unanimous on specific approach, need to figure out how to reach decision of group in such cases; not simple majority voting, but what? 16:22:26 JS: think we can take time to figure out as TF members become more familiar with one another 16:22:49 JS: can develop own decision-making processes -- keep in mind, that it is an evolving process 16:23:05 HTML A11y Task Force Home Page: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Main_Page 16:23:08 HTML A11y Task Force Work Statement: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/html-task-force.html 16:23:45 JS: will make decisions in teleconferences as PFWG does; will NOT make major decisions -- those will be covered by email solicitations (24-48 hour "heartburn" check) 16:24:17 s/major decisions.../major decisions at teleconferences. 16:24:32 s/major decisions/major decisions at teleconferences. 16:25:34 JS: if participant has needs special needs (interpreters for deaf, for example) will make every attempt to support participation (interpreters, etc.) -- will be working on decisioning process, this telecon is part of that 16:25:51 JS: goal: to hear from all interested/affected parties 16:26:20 rrsagent, make minutes 16:26:20 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/12/03-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus 16:26:54 MS: important that TF members know how decision making policy vis a vis telecon recording resolutions and decisions 16:26:59 JS: questions? comments? 16:27:05 [none logged] 16:27:16 topic: TF Subgroups (Canvas; Video; ...) Procedures Discussion 16:27:41 JS: adopting a sub-group that pre-exists A11y TF -- canvas sub-team led by RichS of IBM 16:27:58 JS: also adopting another group which is in process of organizing, which is sub-team dealing with media issues 16:28:08 JS: accessibility for multimedia on HTML5 16:28:20 JS: JohnF and DaveS did great presentation during TPAC 16:28:39 JS: expectations for sub-groups: you are on your own - can have own teleons (as canvas does) 16:28:55 JS: might be useful for media subgroup to have own list and teleconferences 16:29:09 JS: canvas already having own telecons 16:29:19 We organized an informal meeting prior to Tpac, no presentation at Tpac 16:29:24 JS: might need to invite experts for particular discussions 16:29:44 s/during TPAC/in advance of TPAC 2009 16:30:14 JS: tracker - can add "products" pegged to topics 16:30:49 JS: for W3C process -- on wiki, have a minimal work statement for each sub-teacm for wiki -- this is what this sub-group is about and this is what its goals and timeline and work plan is 16:30:54 RS (RichS) 16:31:19 RS: most a11y people will be tied up until monday (publication of new ARIA draft) 16:31:38 JS: would like to get subgroup descriptions, etc on wiki by end of year 16:32:02 SF (Steve Faulkner) 16:32:13 SF: when decide about formation of sub-groups in addition to canvas and multimedia 16:32:36 Does Steve have an idea for another Sub Group? 16:32:42 JS: as prioritize issues, should shake out into a work plan -- may decide during review of issues to spawn supgroup if necessary 16:32:46 zakim, unmute me 16:32:46 Joshue should no longer be muted 16:32:48 +q 16:33:02 q? 16:33:18 JOC (Joshue O Connor) 16:33:39 JOC: if any groups that want me for any issue, please do because i have some open time right now 16:33:44 lol 16:33:48 rrsagent, make minutes 16:33:48 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/12/03-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus 16:33:52 zakim, mute me 16:33:52 Joshue should now be muted 16:33:57 TOPIC: Existing Issues Prioritization -- What? Who? When? 16:34:20 JS: facillitators and staff contact thought that ARIA-mapping may be one area 16:34:24 JS: what to do with @alt 16:34:28 JS: @summary 16:34:42 JS: brainstorm roadmap of what to attack when 16:35:28 GJR: need to ascertain what from HTML5 has been implemented 16:35:58 GJR: One means of prioritising is that we need to know what parts of HTML are being implemented etc so we can anticipate any issues. 16:36:00 +1 GJR 16:36:11 GJR: Our work should be mapped to HTML in the wild 16:36:12 regrets- Joshue_O_Connor 16:36:20 present+ Joshue_O_Connor 16:36:41 JS: used keywords in HTML5 bugzilla to identify accessiblity related issues - keyword: a11y 16:37:15 http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?product=HTML+WG&keywords=a11ytf 16:37:45 q+ to say that there are other implementations to consider other than just browsers 16:37:57 -q 16:38:02 ack MikeSmith 16:38:02 MikeSmith, you wanted to say that there are other implementations to consider other than just browsers 16:38:03 q? 16:38:57 MS: agree with GJR's point about addressing issues vis a vis implementation of features in order to prioritize discussions for this group; not just browsers that are important -- conformance checkers - no conformance checker other than validator.nu 16:39:16 q? 16:39:36 MS: one reason why we should try to make ARIA mappings a priority because waiting on validator.nu to get resolution on this so can change schema to align with consensus opinion on integration/mapping 16:40:16 MS: sooner we can get that done and forward to HTML WG for resolution as to what should appear in spec, can then get implementations that conform to consensus, feed info to validator.nu and then be able to use to check ARIA markup 16:40:30 MS: 2 bug reports this week about ARIA checking at validator.nu 16:40:39 MS: shows interest in ARIA and ARIA support 16:40:49 GJR: plus 1 16:40:52 q? 16:41:24 MC: validators driven by schemata of various sorts -- preparing some on PF side -- may be orthagonal to core mission of A11y TF 16:41:39 MC: will have schemata available soon for validators -- issues beyond conformance checkers, MS? 16:41:51 q+ 16:41:59 MS: need to have an agreement upon what the exact integration of ARIA into HTML5 should be 16:42:24 MS: don't have agreement yet, becuase not completed discussion -- need documentation and verbiage that we agree upon 16:42:33 MS: what have now is hixie's take on what is appropriate 16:42:48 MS: what is at vallidator.nu is hixie's and some is based on HenriS' work 16:42:58 Q+ 16:43:02 MS: would be good to have it standardized and agreed-upon 16:43:24 MS: need official "line" on ARIA integration - need more sense of urgency to get ARIA mapping finallized 16:43:32 ack Stevef 16:44:13 q+ to distinguish ARIA integration from ARIA mapping 16:44:17 SF: agree with MS' assessment -- been working on this with Cynthia Shelly; need input from other people; how lax or strict should it be? haven't yet come up with formula for determining laxity or strictness 16:44:26 ud 16:44:34 SF: need to have some dedicated individuals to work on ARIA mappping 16:44:34 ack d 16:44:43 DS (Dave Singer) 16:45:21 DS: what is on topic for this group and what is not on topic for this group -- clarify impact on HTML5 spec; textual changes, material that will impact other W3C specifications 16:45:37 zakim, mute dsinger 16:45:37 dsinger should now be muted 16:45:39 ack MichaelC 16:45:39 MichaelC, you wanted to distinguish ARIA integration from ARIA mapping 16:45:54 MC: ARIA-integration - building ARIA into HTML5 spec 16:46:19 MC: ARIA-mapping - how ARIA features map to accessibility APIs and how HTML5 handles those APIs 16:46:33 MC: want to distinguish issues to avoid overlap and misunderstanding 16:46:53 SF: think we are talking about the same thing 16:47:07 SF: MS and i are talking about the same thing -- ARIA-mapping 16:47:13 q? 16:48:08 JS: should we resume at this point next thursday (10 december 2009) 16:48:19 JS: any objection to ARIA-integration? 16:48:30 RS: other issues being addressed, make this priority 16:48:44 SF: there has been a change proposal submitted by me on @alt 16:49:01 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2009Dec/0023.html 16:49:11 SF: parts need work 16:49:40 SF: would like to have others to work on change proposal within and without A11y TF 16:50:08 JS: good procedural question: is it necessary to send to both public-html and public-html-a11y 16:50:55 JS: procedure is issues kicked our way, TF comes up with proposals, which are then submitted to HTML WG, which then through its processes decides if acceptable, also pass on to PFWG to ensure recommendations meet a11y needs under PFWG's purview 16:51:12 q+ to say that mapping doesn't end with ARIA 16:51:16 JS: don't deliver final wording - recommendations that -- if worded well -- can be adopted wholesale 16:51:19 zakim, unmute me 16:51:19 kliehm should no longer be muted 16:51:34 MK: mapping doesn't end with ARIA 16:51:36 I suggest that we ask ht 16:51:54 MK: new HTML5 elements not mapped to any a11y APIs -- need investigatino 16:52:22 SF: being looked at by the User Agent Accessibility Guidelines WG 16:52:44 s/User Agent Accessibility Guidelines WG/AAPI task force 16:52:48 HTML wg to send non-consensus a11y questions to us and that we not cross post until we are done 16:53:13 JS: not the only joint task force 16:53:27 JS: AAPI been mostly PF participation so far 16:53:57 JS: start with ARIA, finalize alt proposal 16:54:02 TOPIC: Upcomming Meetings 16:54:03 next 2 months of thursdays at 1600h UTC - upcomming dates: 10 december 2009, 17 december 2009, 24 december 2009, 31 december 2009, 7 january 2010, 14 january 2010, 21 january 2010, 28 january 2010, 4 february 2010 16:54:59 JS: canvas and aapi already working, can help facillitate organization for media accessibility -- may be separate telecon -- participation in any subgroup equals participation in the TF 16:55:34 JS: propose we skip last 2 thursdays of december 16:55:37 -Joshue 16:55:39 [NO OBJECTION] 16:56:12 7 january 2010, 14 january 2010, 21 january 2010, 28 january 2010, 4 february 2010 16:56:15 7 january 2010, 14 january 2010, 21 january 2010, 28 january 2010, 4 february 2010 16:56:19 7 january 2010, 14 january 2010, 21 january 2010, 28 january 2010, 4 february 2010 16:56:20 sounds good to me 16:56:37 dsinger_ has joined #html-a11y 16:56:39 q? 16:56:49 q- 16:57:16 RESOLVED: A11y TF will meet on 10 december 2009 (ARIA), 17 december 2009 (@alt) resume on 7 january 2010 16:57:21 -Jon_Gunderson 16:57:23 rrsagent, make minutes 16:57:23 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/12/03-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus 16:57:32 -Matt_May 16:57:33 -Geoff_Freed 16:57:34 -kliehm 16:57:35 -AllanJ 16:57:35 -Henny_Swan 16:57:36 -Marco_Ranon 16:57:36 -Rich 16:57:36 eric_carlson has left #html-a11y 16:57:38 gfreed has left #html-a11y 16:57:38 -Markku_Hakkinen 16:57:41 -dsinger 16:57:42 -Eric_Carlson 16:57:42 -Ben_Caldwell 16:57:45 -Stevef 16:57:50 AllanJ has left #html-a11y 16:57:50 -Gregory_Rosmaita 16:57:53 -MikeSmith 16:57:54 -Janina 16:57:56 -John_Foliot 16:58:04 zakim, drop cooper 16:58:04 Cooper is being disconnected 16:58:05 WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM has ended 16:58:06 Henny has left #html-a11y 16:58:06 Attendees were Gregory_Rosmaita, +1.650.862.aaaa, +1.512.206.aabb, John_Foliot, Cooper, Stevef, dsinger, +49.693.650.5.aacc, AllanJ, Martin_Kliehm, Janina, kliehm, +1.408.307.aadd, 16:58:10 zakim, please part 16:58:10 Zakim has left #html-a11y 16:58:11 ... +1.617.300.aaee, Eric_Carlson, Henny_Swan, +1.207.388.aaff, Geoff_Freed, Ben_Caldwell, Marco_Ranon?, Matt_May, +1.217.840.aagg, MikeSmith, Joshue, +1.217.840.aahh, Marco_Ranon, 16:58:13 ... Rich, +1.217.840.aaii, Jon_Gunderson, Markku_Hakkinen 16:58:16 rrsagent, make minutes 16:58:16 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/12/03-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus 16:59:07 janina has left #html-a11y 17:00:34 present+ Jon_Gunderson 17:00:58 present+ RichS,Markku_Hakkinen 17:01:03 rrsagent, make minutes 17:01:03 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/12/03-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus 17:01:44 Stevef has left #html-a11y 17:03:23 present+ Geoff_Freed 17:03:30 rrsagent, make minutes 17:03:30 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/12/03-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus 17:04:05 present- +1.617.300.aaee 17:04:12 rrsagent, make minutes 17:04:12 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/12/03-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus 17:04:48 present- kliehm 17:05:01 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/12/03-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus 17:11:46 i/GJR: One means of prioritising/ScribeNick: Joshue 17:11:53 i/JS: used keywords/ScribeNick: oedipus 17:12:53 kliehm has joined #html-a11y 17:13:50 Ben has left #html-a11y 17:14:01 rrsagent, make minutes 17:14:01 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/12/03-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus 17:14:36 rrsagent, please part 17:14:36 I see no action items