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19:00:32 <shepazu> trackbot, start telcon
19:00:35 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
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19:00:37 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be DOM3
19:00:37 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see IA_WebApps(DOM3)2:00PM scheduled to start now
19:00:38 <trackbot> Meeting: Web Applications Working Group Teleconference
19:00:38 <trackbot> Date: 02 December 2009
19:00:42 <Zakim> IA_WebApps(DOM3)2:00PM has now started
19:00:43 <Zakim> +Shepazu
19:01:55 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
19:02:10 <smaug> Zakim, [IPcaller] is me
19:02:10 <Zakim> +smaug; got it
19:04:07 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
19:05:10 <Travis> Travis has joined #webapps
19:06:54 <Travis> scribe: Travis
19:06:59 <Travis> scribeNick: Travis
19:07:10 <Travis> shepazu: Agenda?
19:07:23 <shepazu> agenda+ DOMActivate
19:07:44 <shepazu> agenda+ event constructors
19:08:05 <shepazu> agenda+ keystate and mutation replacement 
19:10:55 <Travis> Topic: DOMActivate
19:15:10 <Travis> Reviewing DOMActivate scenarios...
19:15:43 <Travis> shepazu: Next step to pass this idea along to the P&F (Protocols and Formats WG)
19:16:14 <Travis> Action: shepazu Send email to PFWG regarding potentially deprecating DOMActivate
19:16:14 <trackbot> Created ACTION-461 - Send email to PFWG regarding potentially deprecating DOMActivate [on Doug Schepers - due 2009-12-09].
19:18:02 <Travis> Topic: Travis' strawman proposals
19:18:17 <Travis> shepazu: Looked over Key State.
19:18:24 <Travis> ... (not much to it)
19:19:28 <Travis> ... one detail; keyValues are not quite the same as keyboard state.
19:20:09 <Travis> ... example. Control+C is pressed. Would is say that Control Key + C is pressed, or Control Key + COPY is pressed?
19:24:40 <Travis> Travis: Let's table this for a bit.
19:25:37 <Travis> ... Also, asked some folks here at MS what they thought of Ctrl+C vs. Ctrl+Copy... all preferred Ctrl+Copy as it would be easiser for web devs (more work for the browser implementor).
19:26:04 <Travis> shepazu: I sent a short mail to the list about the selector-based mutation events...
19:27:03 <Travis> ... watchSelector - selector element callback returns a single element... might want to also return a list (say a doc frag is inserted).
19:27:23 <Travis> ... Could consolidate the sync/async nature of the APIs into a flag. 
19:27:57 <Travis> ... Rollup the sync/async concept under the "timeout/delay" property so that 0 means sync...
19:28:57 <Travis> ... PFWG group was asking about something like this... we would like to get some examples of scenarios that might use this.
19:32:14 <Travis> Any thoughts on the DOMCharacterDataModified deficiency?
19:32:49 <Travis> smaug: This is the most widely used event.
19:32:59 <Travis> shepazu: A couple of thoughts:
19:33:17 <Travis> ... could use XPath (as indicated in the proposal)
19:33:35 <Travis> ... could add text selectors into the selectors engine.
19:33:46 <Travis> ... many use cases for this.
19:34:04 <Travis> ... no idea what the performance cost (hit) is...
19:34:18 <Travis> smaug: I'm not sure.
19:34:34 <Travis> ... also not sure if this proposal is easier to implement (more performant)
19:36:01 <Travis> ... Problem I see is when something is modified in the DOM, need to check to see if it now matches...
19:42:12 <Travis> ... Wonder how this compares to Jonas' proposal.
19:44:14 <Travis> Travis: Jonas has many more APIs... there's a link that describes them in the proposal...
19:44:28 <Travis> shepazu: Thinking of making these into "spec" form to get more attention.
19:45:18 <Travis> ... Have a strictor requirements section w/ explanation of why mutation events are bad and this is better
19:46:39 <Travis> ... Could put the proposals together in the same doc as competing proposals to get feedback.
19:48:31 <Travis> Action: Travis to gather the requirements from his head or from the list (or from customers :-) and roll them into a formal spec (with Doug's Help).
19:48:31 <trackbot> Created ACTION-462 - Gather the requirements from his head or from the list (or from customers :-) and roll them into a formal spec (with Doug's Help). [on Travis Leithead - due 2009-12-09].
19:49:30 <Travis> Topic: event constructors
19:50:07 <Travis> e.g., newEvent(oldEvent); ??
19:50:40 <shepazu> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2009OctDec/0136.html
19:52:59 <Travis> foo.dispatchEvent(new MouseEvent('click', ...))
19:55:09 <Travis> This could safely be added later without disrupting things...
19:55:21 <Travis> shepazu: Let's move it to DOM L4 events then... agreed?
19:55:23 <Travis> Yep.
19:55:26 <Travis> smaug: Yes.
19:56:22 <Travis> shepazu: Do we want to spec the generic event initalizer for DOM L3 Events?
19:56:50 <Travis> ... You pass it the event interface.
19:57:26 <Travis> shepazu: Let me do this offline (I'll send it to the list).
19:57:35 <Travis> Sounds great.
19:58:06 <Travis> agenda+ vender-specific event names?
19:58:23 <Travis> Topic: Vender-specific event names
19:59:25 <Travis> shepazu: I took that ou.
19:59:29 <Travis> s/ou/out
20:01:08 <Travis> smaug: Does the current spec say anything about extra events, e.g., MozPixelScroll
20:01:23 <Travis> ... something like that ;)
20:01:47 <smaug> ok, it is MozMousePixelScroll
20:02:02 <smaug> there is also things like MozAfterPaint
20:03:23 <Travis> For IE9, we're thinking about the syntax: "-ms-eventname"
20:03:39 <Travis> (It follows CSS extension syntax)
20:03:50 <Travis> I'm open to changing this if anyone feels strongly about it...
20:04:08 <smaug> on-ms-event
20:04:35 <Travis> smaug: has problem with element.onfoo = function() { // ... };
20:05:06 <Travis> ... would lead to script error: element.on-ms-foo = function() { // ... };
20:06:10 <Travis> ... also, with CSS properties, you use the camel-case version.
20:06:39 <Travis> msMyEvnet
20:07:02 <Travis> MsMyEvent??
20:07:22 <Travis> shepazu: Doesn't really matter. 
20:08:28 <Travis> ... I will reference the vender specific prefixing from either CSS or HTML5.
20:10:05 <Travis> Topic: spec conventions
20:10:07 <shepazu> http://www.w3.org/People/Schepers/spec-conventions.html
20:11:57 <Travis> ... I will switch over to this convention unless anyone objects?
20:12:04 <Travis> No objections
20:13:08 <Travis> shepazu: Would love feedback from implementors as well.
20:14:26 <Travis> Topic: review langauge input feedback from Microsoft
20:18:02 <arve> arve has joined #webapps
20:18:56 <Travis> The WAC team (online versions of Word/Excel/etc.) responded to our feedback from the last telecon
20:19:47 <Travis> ... They liked having a language property on the CompositionEvent
20:21:20 <Travis> ... They were willing to compromise on not having the keyboard property for all input events... but they'd like to have a static method to query the keyboard language.
20:21:40 <Travis> ... I will send a mail summarizing the scenarios and pain-points to the lis.
20:21:45 <Travis> s/lis/list/
20:21:58 <Travis> shepazu: OK.
20:22:15 <Travis> ... I should have a new draft tomorrow or shortly thereafter...
20:26:12 <Travis> ... May not be the best idea to propose a last call before the holidays...
20:28:20 <Travis> ... Next telecon will be Jan. 6, 2010.
20:31:08 <Travis> ... If you want/need any more changes, please send them to the list.
20:31:13 <Travis> See you next year!!
20:31:53 <Zakim> -smaug
20:31:55 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
20:32:02 <Zakim> -Shepazu
20:32:03 <Zakim> IA_WebApps(DOM3)2:00PM has ended
20:32:04 <Zakim> Attendees were Shepazu, smaug, [Microsoft]
20:34:06 <shepazu> trackbot, end telcon
20:34:06 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
20:34:06 <Zakim> sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
20:34:07 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
20:34:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/12/02-webapps-minutes.html trackbot
20:34:08 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
20:34:08 <RRSAgent> I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/12/02-webapps-actions.rdf :
20:34:08 <RRSAgent> ACTION: shepazu Send email to PFWG regarding potentially deprecating DOMActivate [1]
20:34:08 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/12/02-webapps-irc#T19-16-14
20:34:08 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Travis to gather the requirements from his head or from the list (or from customers :-) and roll them into a formal spec (with Doug's Help). [2]
20:34:08 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/12/02-webapps-irc#T19-48-31