IRC log of swxg on 2009-12-02

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:59:53 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #swxg
15:59:53 [RRSAgent]
logging to
15:59:55 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
15:59:55 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #swxg
15:59:57 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 7994
15:59:57 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see INC_SWXG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 1 minute
15:59:58 [trackbot]
Meeting: Social Web Incubator Group Teleconference
15:59:58 [trackbot]
Date: 02 December 2009
16:01:47 [hhalpin]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
16:01:47 [Zakim]
INC_SWXG()11:00AM has not yet started, hhalpin
16:01:47 [tpa]
Zakim, mute me
16:01:49 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, rreck, petef, pchampin, tinkster, yoshiaki, claudio, Adam, tlr, melvster, hhalpin, tpa, MacTed, danbri, mischat, karl, jar, AlexPassant, trackbot
16:01:51 [Zakim]
sorry, tpa, I don't know what conference this is
16:01:52 [AlexPassant]
zakim where are u :-) ?
16:01:58 [tpa]
Zakim, this is SWXG
16:01:58 [hajons]
hajons has joined #swxg
16:01:58 [MacTed]
Zakim, this is 7994
16:01:59 [Zakim]
ok, tpa; that matches INC_SWXG()11:00AM
16:01:59 [yoshiaki]
7994 might be mine, yoshiaki
16:02:03 [Zakim]
MacTed, this was already INC_SWXG()11:00AM
16:02:05 [tpa]
Zakim, mute me
16:02:08 [Zakim]
ok, MacTed; that matches INC_SWXG()11:00AM
16:02:09 [MacTed]
Zakim, who's here?
16:02:11 [Zakim]
sorry, tpa, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
16:02:14 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ??P24, +39.011.228.aaaa, ??P42, ??P28, +049172247aabb, hhalpin, +1.774.811.aacc, +1.781.273.aadd
16:02:20 [Zakim]
16:02:36 [Zakim]
On IRC I see hajons, Zakim, RRSAgent, rreck, petef, pchampin, tinkster, yoshiaki, claudio, Adam, tlr, melvster, hhalpin, tpa, MacTed, danbri, mischat, karl, jar, AlexPassant,
16:02:41 [Zakim]
... trackbot
16:02:41 [claudio]
Zakim, aaaa is me
16:02:43 [Zakim]
+ +95177aaee
16:02:51 [Zakim]
+claudio; got it
16:02:55 [Zakim]
16:02:55 [MacTed]
Zakim, aadd is OpenLink_Software
16:02:55 [MacTed]
Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
16:02:55 [MacTed]
zakim, mute me
16:02:58 [Zakim]
16:02:58 [rreck]
zakim, +95177aaee is me
16:02:59 [AlexPassant]
Zakim, ??P5 is me
16:03:02 [Zakim]
+OpenLink_Software; got it
16:03:03 [hhalpin]
topic: Convene SWXG WG meeting of 2009-12-02T16:00-17:00GMT
16:03:05 [Zakim]
+MacTed; got it
16:03:05 [AlexPassant]
Zakim, +??P5 is me
16:03:07 [Zakim]
MacTed should now be muted
16:03:07 [hhalpin]
chair: hhalpin
16:03:13 [Zakim]
16:03:15 [Zakim]
+rreck; got it
16:03:16 [Zakim]
+ +7.970.94.aaff
16:03:21 [Zakim]
+AlexPassant; got it
16:03:22 [rreck]
not that i want to, but i cant scribe
16:03:23 [Zakim]
sorry, AlexPassant, I do not recognize a party named '+??P5'
16:03:29 [rreck]
zakim, mute me
16:03:29 [petef]
zakim, +??P26 is me
16:03:36 [Zakim]
16:03:42 [tpa]
Zakim, ??P28 is me
16:03:43 [MacTed]
I could easily be the worst scribe ever
16:03:43 [petef]
zakim, aaff is me
16:03:44 [Zakim]
sorry, petef, I do not recognize a party named '+??P26'
16:03:51 [Zakim]
rreck should now be muted
16:03:57 [hhalpin]
Zakim, pick a scribe
16:04:05 [Zakim]
+tpa; got it
16:04:09 [Zakim]
+petef; got it
16:04:11 [tpa]
Zakim, mute me
16:04:14 [rreck]
i thought its me
16:04:22 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose claudio
16:04:25 [rreck]
pchampin: it might be you
16:04:43 [hhalpin]
Zakim, pick a scribe
16:04:54 [Zakim]
tpa should now be muted
16:05:08 [AlexPassant]
ok i will
16:05:21 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose claudio
16:05:22 [hhalpin]
scribe: AlexPassant
16:05:29 [bblfish]
bblfish has joined #swxg
16:05:33 [hhalpin]
scribenick: AlexPassant
16:05:41 [hhalpin]
PROPOSED: to approve SWXG WG Weekly -- 25th November 2009 as a true record
16:05:46 [hhalpin]
16:05:49 [AlexPassant]
hhalpin: minutes of last week
16:05:51 [rreck]
pchampin: yeah its you
16:06:02 [hhalpin]
RESOLVED: approved SWXG WG Weekly -- 25th November 2009 as a true record
16:06:04 [AlexPassant]
... no objections
16:06:09 [hhalpin]
PROPOSED: to meet again Wed. Decemeber 9th
16:06:13 [AlexPassant]
... next week
16:06:15 [Zakim]
16:06:16 [Zakim]
+ +1.314.683.aagg
16:06:18 [hhalpin]
FOAF and FOAF+SSL and RDF for data integration over social nets...
16:06:22 [hhalpin]
DanBri, can you make next week/
16:06:26 [AlexPassant]
... FOAF and FOAF+SSL and RDF for data integration on the Social Web
16:06:33 [hhalpin]
Henry Story?
16:06:38 [bblfish]
just a sec
16:06:48 [Zakim]
16:07:05 [AlexPassant]
... will talk about FOAF Updating coordination
16:07:09 [AlexPassant]
... ideally with portable contacts
16:07:11 [rreck]
zakim, unmute me
16:07:12 [hhalpin]
topic: User Stories
16:07:16 [Zakim]
sorry, rreck, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
16:07:21 [tpa]
Zakim, unmute me
16:07:23 [Zakim]
16:07:23 [Adam]
+1 Alex
16:07:25 [hhalpin]
16:07:25 [Zakim]
tpa should no longer be muted
16:07:28 [AlexPassant]
... user stories
16:07:30 [melvster]
melvster has joined #swxg
16:07:43 [Zakim]
+ +1.207.220.aahh
16:07:44 [AlexPassant]
tpa: Progress on user stories
16:07:49 [tpa]
16:07:52 [Zakim]
+ +
16:07:54 [hhalpin]
very nice!
16:08:00 [Zakim]
16:08:01 [AlexPassant]
... changed the order of stories
16:08:05 [AlexPassant]
... structure of the document
16:08:11 [Zakim]
16:08:20 [bblfish]
which user am I?
16:08:21 [rreck]
zakim, ??P5 is me
16:08:21 [Zakim]
+rreck; got it
16:08:29 [AlexPassant]
... business model angle
16:08:30 [hhalpin]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
16:08:30 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ??P24, claudio, +049172247aabb, hhalpin, +1.774.811.aacc, MacTed (muted), ??P26, petef, tpa, +1.314.683.aagg, ??P2, rreck, +1.207.220.aahh, +,
16:08:33 [Zakim]
... rreck.a
16:08:35 [rreck]
zakim, mute me
16:08:35 [Zakim]
rreck should now be muted
16:08:37 [AlexPassant]
... corporate contect (e.g. soc net in large compagny)
16:09:21 [AlexPassant]
... featureS: linking people annotating, consuming
16:09:30 [AlexPassant]
... structured in 10 parts, from an end-user perspective
16:09:41 [bblfish]
zakim, I am +1.207.220.aahh
16:09:41 [Zakim]
+bblfish; got it
16:09:56 [AlexPassant]
Zakim, ??P26 is me
16:09:56 [Zakim]
+AlexPassant; got it
16:09:57 [AlexPassant]
16:10:32 [cperey]
cperey has joined #swxg
16:10:38 [AlexPassant]
... try to get a comprehensive view of the field
16:10:44 [hhalpin]
+1 on presence management
16:10:54 [MacTed]
*great* UseCases revision.
16:11:14 [hhalpin]
16:11:19 [Zakim]
+ +1.617.848.aajj
16:11:42 [AlexPassant]
... lots of changes in a week
16:11:47 [hhalpin]
*Very* good work.
16:11:47 [cperey]
zakim +1.617.848.aajj is me
16:12:11 [AlexPassant]
... help needed on some user stories
16:12:13 [AlexPassant]
... to get them filled
16:12:19 [AlexPassant]
... better direction for the document
16:12:24 [hhalpin]
ack ??P26
16:12:28 [AlexPassant]
16:12:37 [hhalpin]
ack hhalpin
16:12:42 [AlexPassant]
I just handed up for zakim
16:12:42 [cperey]
16:12:47 [Zakim]
16:12:49 [hhalpin]
16:12:53 [danbri]
zakim, ??P25 is danbri
16:12:53 [Zakim]
+danbri; got it
16:12:54 [hhalpin]
Are these no longer relevant?
16:12:58 [hhalpin]
Happy to kill them...
16:12:59 [AlexPassant]
hhalpin: what about actions on the weekly agenda
16:13:02 [Zakim]
16:13:03 [AlexPassant]
... are they still required ?
16:13:08 [hhalpin]
Do you want me to tell me which ones are still relevant?
16:13:16 [AlexPassant]
tpa: some of them might be still needed, some not
16:13:20 [AlexPassant]
... have to go through
16:13:34 [cperey]
you can close my action on business narrative from last week
16:13:40 [AlexPassant]
hhalpin: can drop the older ones
16:13:48 [AlexPassant]
tpa: corporate story still valid (adam)
16:13:52 [Adam]
i am
16:13:54 [Zakim]
16:13:54 [AlexPassant]
... business - done
16:13:55 [hhalpin]
ACTION: [DONE] cperey to take business narrative
16:13:55 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - [DONE]
16:13:59 [danbri]
re API/widget discussion, I met with Robin Berjon briefly last week, he's keen to come talk w/ us re DAP WG and related
16:14:04 [pchampin]
zakim, rreck.aa is me
16:14:04 [Zakim]
+pchampin; got it
16:14:06 [hhalpin]
ACTION [DONE]: cperey to take business narrative
16:14:06 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - [DONE]
16:14:13 [hhalpin]
[DONE] ACTION: cperey to take business narrative
16:14:20 [AlexPassant]
... let people listed on the old ones to decide themselves
16:14:24 [hhalpin]
[CONTINUES] ACTION: adam to take on corporate story
16:14:26 [rreck]
pchampin: thanks
16:14:29 [AlexPassant]
... some are still usable and needed
16:14:32 [MacTed]
Zakim, who's making noise?
16:14:36 [hhalpin]
[DONE] ACTION: (2 weeks) adam to write up the boeing use case for enterprise social networks
16:14:42 [Zakim]
MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: + (35%), claudio (9%), hhalpin (50%)
16:15:10 [AlexPassant]
tpa: use cases moved to section 4 (third party)
16:15:14 [AlexPassant]
... including APIs
16:15:18 [claudio]
Zakim, mute me
16:15:18 [Zakim]
claudio should now be muted
16:15:31 [AlexPassant]
... mostly tries to do a mapping
16:15:32 [cperey]
16:15:47 [hhalpin]
ack cperey
16:15:47 [AlexPassant]
... some ended up in multiple categories
16:16:08 [AlexPassant]
cperey: fill-in description for each of them
16:16:17 [AlexPassant]
... went through the all section, feedback required
16:16:22 [hhalpin]
[CONTINUES] ACTION: rreck to flesh out anonymous usecase connecting to multiple identies and null provenance (rreck)
16:16:25 [AlexPassant]
... is that a sufficient level of detail at this time ?
16:16:29 [AlexPassant]
... or is that too much ?
16:16:35 [AlexPassant]
... needs review on the first section
16:16:40 [hhalpin]
[CONTINUES] ACTION: oshani to reframe the geolocation/intent/portability (2 weeks)
16:16:43 [tpa]
16:16:45 [AlexPassant]
... as it will drive the rest of the work
16:16:55 [AlexPassant]
... sectino on business models
16:17:01 [hhalpin]
[CONTINUES] ACTION: bblfish to relabel data protection use case to be about controlled access and takedown to data "about" you (2 weeks)
16:17:03 [AlexPassant]
... is this the right place for this content ?
16:17:09 [AlexPassant]
... not sure that it needs to be there
16:17:24 [hhalpin]
q+ Business use-cases and final report
16:17:28 [hhalpin]
q+ "Business use-cases and final report"
16:17:34 [hhalpin]
16:17:36 [hhalpin]
ack tpa
16:17:37 [AlexPassant]
... out of scope ?
16:17:39 [Zakim]
16:18:00 [hhalpin]
[CONTINUES] ACTION: bblfish to merge Family and Group access usecases (2 weeks)
16:18:03 [AlexPassant]
... economic / revenue belongs to this document ?
16:18:12 [AlexPassant]
... business models seems odd where it is at the moment
16:18:19 [hhalpin]
ACTION: (2 weeks) hhalpin explain to henry and oshani doc editing process for usecases (2 weeks)
16:18:19 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - (2
16:18:28 [hhalpin]
[CONTINUES] ACTION: (2 weeks) hhalpin explain to henry and oshani doc editing process for usecases (2 weeks)
16:18:31 [Zakim]
16:18:41 [AlexPassant]
tpa: template at the top of the catalogue
16:19:05 [AlexPassant]
... need description of corporate context and developer views
16:19:14 [AlexPassant]
... tags to each story would make sense
16:19:19 [AlexPassant]
... but bery good description
16:19:20 [hhalpin]
ack hhalpin
16:19:25 [AlexPassant]
cperey: tpa can you do tags
16:19:26 [Zakim]
+ +1.412.225.aakk
16:19:31 [AlexPassant]
... to avoid heterogeneity
16:19:31 [tpa]
ACTION: tanglade to tag existing stories
16:19:32 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-114 - Tag existing stories [on Tim Anglade - due 2009-12-09].
16:19:40 [AlexPassant]
... better consistency if only one / 2 people to the tags
16:19:44 [AlexPassant]
... be consistent with the tags
16:20:03 [AlexPassant]
tpa: original doc was called reuirements and use-cases
16:20:08 [AlexPassant]
... business part is more about requirements
16:20:22 [AlexPassant]
... nice illustration of the user stories
16:20:28 [AlexPassant]
... included some way in the final report
16:20:35 [AlexPassant]
... as it matters , on a bigger extend
16:20:39 [AlexPassant]
16:20:50 [chrismessina]
chrismessina has joined #swxg
16:20:50 [AlexPassant]
... site X uses this block and that one
16:20:59 [AlexPassant]
... get a complete catalogue
16:21:01 [hhalpin]
topic: For Final Report
16:21:06 [AlexPassant]
... nice illustration
16:21:22 [AlexPassant]
hhalpin: buiness X wants to Y
16:21:36 [AlexPassant]
... what are the requirements
16:21:44 [AlexPassant]
... necessary for business but not for users
16:21:58 [AlexPassant]
... more an argumentative / narrative
16:22:00 [Zakim]
16:22:06 [rreck]
you are dropping out hhalpin
16:22:14 [rreck]
i can
16:22:19 [rreck]
maybe it was just me
16:22:33 [Zakim]
16:22:42 [hhalpin]
This definitely needs some manpower, but keeping it short and sweet is great.
16:22:49 [AlexPassant]
tpa: some are very straightforward stories
16:23:15 [hhalpin]
16:23:15 [Adam]
yeah, i will have more time coming up
16:23:22 [AlexPassant]
tpa: will work on it
16:23:27 [melvster]
ill put some time in ...
16:23:29 [AlexPassant]
... like to get most of the stories filled by next week
16:23:36 [AlexPassant]
... then can concentrate on the narrative, tagging
16:23:39 [hhalpin]
I'll give it a good review over Christmas...#
16:23:40 [AlexPassant]
... needs one or 2 people
16:23:59 [Adam]
zakim, i am aagg
16:23:59 [Zakim]
+Adam; got it
16:24:07 [hhalpin]
topic: Invited Guest Invitations
16:24:11 [bblfish]
16:24:12 [AlexPassant]
hhalpin: invited guest agenda
16:24:13 [tpa]
Zakim, mute me
16:24:13 [Zakim]
tpa should now be muted
16:24:17 [AlexPassant]
danbri: updted on the widgets
16:24:19 [Zakim]
- +1.774.811.aacc
16:24:29 [hhalpin]
[CONTINUES] ACTION: danbri to find someone from Opera to talk Widgets (2 weeks)
16:24:58 [hhalpin]
[CONTINUES] ACTION:hhalpin to try to get TimBL to either talk or write-up his use-cases
16:25:08 [hhalpin]
topic: Chris Messina on ActivityStreams
16:25:11 [AlexPassant]
hhalpin: invited speaker
16:25:11 [Zakim]
+ +1.774.811.aall
16:25:16 [chrismessina]
morning all
16:25:17 [AlexPassant]
... Chris Messina on Activity Streams
16:25:19 [mischat]
I will be able to time and effort into this tpa hhalpin
16:25:20 [danbri]
action danbri set up a *oodle thing to pick a date for widget/apis telecon
16:25:20 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-115 - Set up a *oodle thing to pick a date for widget/apis telecon [on Dan Brickley - due 2009-12-09].
16:25:30 [AlexPassant]
... forwarded links about a week ago
16:25:36 [AlexPassant]
... let Chris introduce himself
16:25:40 [AlexPassant]
... DISO, etc
16:25:47 [hhalpin]
16:25:56 [hhalpin]
16:26:08 [AlexPassant]
chrismessina: interest in social web, communities
16:26:11 [AlexPassant]
... for the last 5 yeasrs
16:26:13 [hhalpin]
16:26:16 [Zakim]
16:26:18 [AlexPassant]
... worked on firefox marketing
16:26:23 [hhalpin]
16:26:25 [AlexPassant]
... introduction to the power of social web / open source
16:26:31 [AlexPassant]
... what a community was like
16:26:35 [AlexPassant]
... started on Flock
16:26:40 [Zakim]
16:26:40 [AlexPassant]
... open source architect
16:26:41 [hhalpin]
Links to most the projects are here:
16:26:47 [hhalpin]
16:26:59 [AlexPassant]
... fundamental vision: browsers are for a web of documents, not for a web of people
16:27:06 [AlexPassant]
... make easier to enable interactions
16:27:13 [AlexPassant]
... link all the social networks that one's part of
16:27:40 [AlexPassant]
... time before google acq. youtube, etc.
16:28:00 [AlexPassant]
... browser as the natural place to list people and friends
16:28:12 [hhalpin]
a browser for myspace :)
16:28:18 [AlexPassant]
... left when the browser idea changed
16:28:23 [AlexPassant]
... microformats community
16:28:32 [AlexPassant]
... let browsers support microformats
16:28:37 [AlexPassant]
... involved in the openid community
16:28:41 [hhalpin]
+1 flocks very useful when we in W3C were looking at microformats and RDF with GRDDL...
16:28:46 [AlexPassant]
... get oauth off the ground
16:28:52 [AlexPassant]
... openid board member
16:28:55 [AlexPassant]
... 2 years temr
16:28:58 [AlexPassant]
16:29:05 [AlexPassant]
... involvement in the activity streams project
16:29:14 [danbri]
16:29:23 [AlexPassant]
... DISO project
16:29:44 [AlexPassant]
... ... opensocial was not open nor social
16:29:52 [AlexPassant]
... needded for open social network
16:30:03 [AlexPassant]
... DISO came a framework for such Open SocNet
16:30:20 [AlexPassant]
... will hopefully provide interoperrability building blocks for the social web
16:30:30 [Zakim]
16:30:36 [hhalpin]
ActivityStream Generator for Opera:
16:30:37 [AlexPassant]
... activitystreams started when seeing all streams, feeds, etc. on the web
16:30:45 [AlexPassant]
... RSS and Atom as the data input to build the streams
16:30:49 [Zakim]
16:30:56 [AlexPassant]
... rich stream / how to understand it
16:31:09 [AlexPassant]
... need more experssive formats than RSS / Atom
16:31:18 [AlexPassant]
... researched what kind of activities / verbs were used
16:31:23 [AlexPassant]
... extension to the Atom format
16:31:33 [AlexPassant]
... transfor AtomXML to a JSON representation to be used in opensocial
16:31:47 [AlexPassant]
... next opensocial version - much richers
16:31:53 [danbri]
-> eg
16:31:55 [AlexPassant]
... aggregating, filtering, merging, ...
16:31:59 [AlexPassant]
... activities from several sources
16:32:34 [AlexPassant]
... move opensocial activity streams
16:32:40 [AlexPassant]
... verb URIs, JSON representation
16:32:49 [AlexPassant]
... compatibility between different initiatives
16:32:53 [AlexPassant]
... myspace is using it
16:33:16 [danbri]
q+ to ask re atom/json design
16:33:25 [hhalpin]
ack danbri
16:33:25 [Zakim]
danbri, you wanted to ask re atom/json design
16:33:28 [chrismessina]
16:33:37 [AlexPassant]
danbri: issues coming up to have a JSON design
16:33:44 [AlexPassant]
... noticed similar things on portablecontacts
16:33:51 [AlexPassant]
... merging practices ?
16:33:56 [AlexPassant]
... particular JSON / XML expressions
16:34:27 [AlexPassant]
chrismessina: not a dev. but understands (UI and design background)
16:34:40 [Zakim]
16:34:41 [AlexPassant]
... yet, biggest issue is to get the XML schema to JSON
16:34:44 [bblfish]
16:34:45 [hhalpin]
JSON issues with namespaces...
16:34:48 [AlexPassant]
... does not deal with namespaces properly
16:34:56 [Zakim]
16:35:02 [hhalpin]
This is a very interesting blog post:
16:35:02 [hhalpin]
16:35:05 [hhalpin]
Death of the URL
16:35:21 [AlexPassant]
... specifying expressive JSON activity stream API in opensocial
16:35:22 [tlr]
tlr has joined #swxg
16:35:27 [oshani]
oshani has joined #swxg
16:35:28 [AlexPassant]
... not worrying to much on extensions
16:35:34 [bblfish]
that's the main problem with JSON:
16:35:45 [AlexPassant]
... issues also heard from the PortableContact people
16:35:55 [AlexPassant]
... some efforts needed
16:36:13 [AlexPassant]
... 2 important things
16:36:17 [bblfish]
what is needed is a JSON rdf format
16:36:17 [hhalpin]
in RDF scene, there's still (hopefully) work done mapping RDF over to JSON is some standardized way...
16:36:23 [AlexPassant]
... straughtforward way of expressing the activity mode
16:36:30 [AlexPassant]
... + schema for expressing these things
16:36:44 [AlexPassant]
... use the same URI to identify the different verbs
16:36:56 [hhalpin]
verb proliferation....
16:37:09 [rreck]
sounds like you could use a verb taxonomy
16:37:11 [hhalpin]
Sounds like the owl:sameAs problem...
16:37:12 [AlexPassant] also related to the topic
16:37:27 [rreck]
i would look at wordnet, and at Levin's verb book
16:37:34 [danbri]
I liked
16:37:34 [AlexPassant]
... use the same terminology (challenge) but gives opportunity
16:37:36 [danbri]
"As long as proper research and documentation is done, anyone can implement whatever verbs they want to; that's why they're URIs! "
16:37:44 [rreck]
Levin's verb categories are in the public
16:37:56 [rreck]
has he heard of Levin's verbs?
16:37:58 [AlexPassant]
rreck: any reference for that ?
16:38:04 [rreck]
yes one second
16:38:07 [AlexPassant]
hhalpin: high adoption
16:38:15 [hhalpin]
subject-verb-object model
16:38:17 [AlexPassant]
... and rapid one
16:38:22 [hhalpin]
to me, very similar to RDF.
16:38:31 [hhalpin]
yet because's Atom.
16:38:33 [rreck]
Levin verb index ->
16:38:47 [Zakim]
16:38:48 [AlexPassant]
... make think of RDF modeling (in terms of subjct-verb-object
16:38:52 [rreck]
they are linked to the table of contents which "someone" needs to type in
16:38:56 [AlexPassant]
... any relationship between activity streams and RDF ?
16:38:58 [hhalpin]
16:39:01 [AlexPassant]
... activity schema
16:39:02 [DKA]
DKA has joined #swxg
16:39:06 [AlexPassant]
thanks rreck
16:39:06 [Zakim]
16:39:08 [rreck]
i have typed that TOC in
16:39:14 [DKA]
zakim, who is here?
16:39:14 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ??P24, claudio (muted), +049172247aabb, hhalpin, MacTed (muted), AlexPassant, petef, tpa (muted), Adam, ??P2, bblfish, +, rreck.a,
16:39:17 [danbri]
schema ->
16:39:18 [Zakim]
... +1.617.848.aajj, danbri, +1.412.225.aakk, +1.774.811.aall, pchampin
16:39:19 [Zakim]
On IRC I see DKA, tlr, chrismessina, cperey, melvster, bblfish, hajons, Zakim, RRSAgent, rreck, petef, pchampin, tinkster, yoshiaki, claudio, Adam, hhalpin, tpa, MacTed, danbri,
16:39:21 [AlexPassant]
... how do we keep track when adding more verbs
16:39:22 [Zakim]
... mischat, karl, jar, AlexPassant, trackbot
16:39:22 [chrismessina]
16:39:25 [DKA]
zakim, aabb is Anita
16:39:25 [Zakim]
+Anita; got it
16:39:31 [rreck]
16:39:36 [FabGandon]
FabGandon has joined #swxg
16:39:40 [DKA]
16:39:40 [rreck]
zakim, unmute me
16:39:42 [Zakim]
rreck.a was not muted, rreck
16:39:42 [bblfish]
16:39:57 [AlexPassant]
chrismessina: bridge efforts between different groups
16:39:59 [hhalpin]
I admit I was surprised to see the adoption was so rapid, given the data model seems very similar to RDF.
16:40:02 [AlexPassant]
... different names to describe things
16:40:09 [hhalpin]
Which has had historical issues with rapid adoption :)
16:40:34 [AlexPassant]
... more likely to go and implement their own version
16:40:43 [bblfish]
on Atom and RDF, there is the Atom OWL ontology:
16:40:58 [AlexPassant]
... looked at the patterns
16:41:03 [AlexPassant]
... extracted best practices
16:41:08 [bblfish]
so it should be easy to add activity streams to the transform
16:41:13 [AlexPassant]
... turneed into a solution that everyone can adopt with minimal effort
16:41:30 [hhalpin]
everyone was already using Atom feeds...
16:41:43 [hhalpin]
Hmm...looks like a GRDDL for ActivityStreams could be in order.
16:41:46 [AlexPassant]
... friendfeed. facebook parse the feeds in a very specific way
16:42:06 [AlexPassant]
... location service sharing
16:42:46 [AlexPassant]
... goal was to look at what feeds publisher are doing
16:42:51 [AlexPassant]
... what the actor / object are
16:42:54 [Zakim]
16:42:57 [AlexPassant]
... challenge: what the verb is
16:43:03 [AlexPassant]
... update the feeds in a non-introsive way
16:43:10 [AlexPassant]
... 10/15 minutes to get a feed
16:43:16 [AlexPassant]
... if already publishing atom
16:43:25 [AlexPassant]
... alignement is as lightweight as possible
16:43:36 [AlexPassant]
... more pragmatic that data purist
16:43:45 [danbri]
q+ to ask re TV viewing feed examples (xbmc/boxee etc)
16:43:46 [Zakim]
16:43:55 [tlr]
tlr has joined #swxg
16:44:16 [AlexPassant]
... anyone that adapt the format is able to showcase the feed better than any competitor
16:44:23 [AlexPassant]
... market place with a desire to solve that problem
16:44:31 [AlexPassant]
... e.g. myspace wants to get activities from different sources
16:44:37 [AlexPassant]
... plaxo, etc. all duplicating the work
16:44:43 [AlexPassant]
... opportunity for standardization
16:44:48 [AlexPassant]
... same as with openid
16:45:04 [AlexPassant]
... relationship to the RDF triples
16:45:12 [AlexPassant]
... in general the triple approach is very compelling
16:45:22 [AlexPassant]
... you can convert in any format once you have the data
16:45:30 [AlexPassant]
... start with something easy
16:45:39 [AlexPassant]
... facebook and myspace and youtube onboard
16:45:48 [AlexPassant]
.. look at what can be done with the data in novel ways
16:45:53 [danbri]
16:45:57 [AlexPassant]
hhalpin: close fit regarding data formats
16:46:06 [AlexPassant]
... interesting would be to look at activity streams mappins
16:46:13 [hhalpin]
ack rreck
16:46:22 [hhalpin]
16:46:24 [rreck]
you cant hear me
16:46:30 [hhalpin]
Zakim, unmute rreck
16:46:30 [Zakim]
rreck.a was not muted, hhalpin
16:46:35 [rreck]
ok you cant hear me
16:46:39 [hhalpin]
ack bblfish
16:46:41 [rreck]
16:46:43 [pchampin]
we can hear you
16:46:49 [danbri]
(re rdf, some colleagues in the notube project did do an rdf mapping, and compare/contrast w/ rdf version of activity/event schemas)
16:47:01 [AlexPassant]
bblfish: transform Atom into RDF
16:47:06 [AlexPassant]
... worked on the atom syntax spec
16:47:13 [AlexPassant]
... spend tome time to create an ontology for taht
16:47:21 [AlexPassant]
16:47:31 [AlexPassant]
... one key element that may have slow doen the RDF adoption inthat realm
16:47:37 [Zakim]
16:47:37 [cperey]
zakim, +1.617.848.aajj is cperey
16:47:38 [AlexPassant]
... apart the tools not being there
16:47:38 [Zakim]
+cperey; got it
16:47:55 [AlexPassant]
... triples and metadata about the content itself
16:48:00 [Zakim]
16:48:02 [AlexPassant]
... need to distinguish what the content is about
16:48:05 [AlexPassant]
... merge from different sources
16:48:19 [hhalpin]
So there's some issues with regards lack of context/named graphs in rdf here.
16:48:38 [AlexPassant]
whos speaking ?
16:48:54 [chrismessina]
"a financial interest in verbs" ?
16:49:05 [hhalpin]
yes, the man does have financial interest in verbs :)
16:49:05 [AlexPassant]
rreck: where to find verbs
16:49:07 [chrismessina]
16:49:09 [danbri]
ah, i heard financial too
16:49:11 [danbri]
16:49:13 [AlexPassant]
... categorisation of verbs, broken into categories
16:49:18 [AlexPassant]
... similar syntactially, etc.
16:49:22 [hhalpin]
I mean, you know, people do get paid for computational linguistics.
16:49:29 [MacTed]
SIOC helps handle this distinction -- between "document description" (i.e., file metadata) and "content description" (i.e., named entities used in text *within* the file)
16:49:31 [AlexPassant]
... wordnet is one of them
16:49:34 [MacTed]
Container is the key element
16:49:41 [Zakim]
16:49:57 [Zakim]
16:49:58 [AlexPassant]
... will contact offline
16:50:03 [chrismessina]
16:50:05 [AlexPassant]
chrismessina: posted a link to the activity streams process
16:50:20 [bblfish]
so just to summarize what I was saying above: the content of an atom format is something that has to end up being mapped to a Graph. So before SPARQL was out and named graphs were well accepted in the semweb community, it was a bit diffiuclt to express this in RDF.
16:50:27 [AlexPassant]
... important thing: about interoperability
16:50:31 [AlexPassant]
... communication between one and other
16:50:36 [danbri]
non-thinking entities --- companies or computers?
16:51:25 [AlexPassant]
... want to avoid people inventing new verbs again and again
16:51:35 [AlexPassant]
... wht types of activities are needed from a publisher point of view
16:51:38 [AlexPassant]
... to communicate
16:51:46 [hhalpin]
So, maybe one way to say it, the verbs we are interested are "domain-specific" to the social web.
16:51:50 [AlexPassant]
... interested in getting a core set of verbs to begin with
16:52:07 [AlexPassant]
... as anytime a new verb is added. lots of people are required to use them
16:52:12 [AlexPassant]
.. URIs for new verbs
16:52:17 [AlexPassant]
... registries of verbs
16:52:22 [AlexPassant]
... synonyms can be done later on
16:52:35 [AlexPassant]
... very obvisou verbs of the social web
16:52:39 [AlexPassant]
... as standards as possible
16:52:43 [AlexPassant]
... and then grows from there
16:52:51 [hhalpin]
ack danbri
16:52:51 [Zakim]
danbri, you wanted to ask re TV viewing feed examples (xbmc/boxee etc)
16:52:53 [AlexPassant]
.. starting with 40 verbs (approx.)
16:52:59 [chrismessina]
16:53:01 [AlexPassant]
... the one seen used on the web
16:53:15 [hhalpin]
16:53:22 [hhalpin]
Ack, chrismessina beat me :)
16:53:23 [rreck]
zakim, mute me
16:53:23 [Zakim]
rreck.a should now be muted
16:53:31 [chrismessina]
;) sorry!
16:53:34 [hhalpin]
16:53:45 [Zakim]
16:54:03 [Zakim]
16:54:14 [petef]
danbri have you seen
16:54:34 [chrismessina]
16:54:42 [AlexPassant]
chrismessina: verb-mapping
16:54:50 [AlexPassant]
... took a lok at the verbs visible on a site
16:54:57 [AlexPassant]
... evaluated the existing formats
16:55:11 [AlexPassant]
... then take the verbs and the way they describe the activities
16:55:13 [petef]
Test Tube Telly is a good use case for Activity Streams and TV.
16:55:15 [AlexPassant]
... a few classes of activities
16:55:20 [AlexPassant]
... and mapped them with the existing
16:55:31 [AlexPassant]
... boxy (?)
16:55:35 [AlexPassant]
... few unknown verbs
16:55:56 [hajons]
16:55:57 [AlexPassant]
... work with the community to see how you implement it is ok
16:55:59 [AlexPassant]
... then implements
16:56:07 [AlexPassant]
s/boxy (?)/
16:56:24 [AnitaD]
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16:56:25 [chrismessina]
16:56:30 [rreck]
does anyone else think SKOS when they read verb mapping?
16:56:30 [AlexPassant]
... create ver, document, implement, get feedback
16:56:44 [hhalpin]
Yes, SKOS could be useful here,
16:56:46 [Zakim]
16:56:50 [Adam]
Adam has joined #swxg
16:56:50 [pchampin]
16:56:51 [AlexPassant]
danbri: disambiguation ?
16:57:12 [bblfish]
ok, got to go to another conf call.
16:57:19 [rreck]
i would love to show a interoperable approach for verb mapping using skos
16:57:34 [bblfish]
but it would be useful to have the vocabulary of activity streams published as RDF linked data
16:57:35 [AlexPassant]
-1 for skos for verbs (while the SKOS properties are useful)
16:57:38 [rreck]
which of course would mean lots of this information is available out of the box
16:58:03 [bblfish]
and have that mapped in such as a way that it can fit in with AtomOWL transform...
16:58:10 [danbri]
examples of what comes out of boxee:
16:58:17 [AlexPassant]
chrismessina: some can use microformats, wikipedia page, etc.
16:58:20 [Zakim]
16:58:39 [AlexPassant]
... author, title and body content
16:58:47 [AlexPassant]
... then enclosure, but pretty weak
16:58:53 [AlexPassant]
.. adding the actor of the port
16:58:55 [danbri]
16:58:57 [AlexPassant]
16:59:08 [AlexPassant]
... adding some microformats in the content to parse the object and iunderstand what it is
16:59:13 [pchampin]
q+ to ask a very basic question about cliqset
16:59:23 [AlexPassant]
... great problem to address then
16:59:27 [AlexPassant]
... but need to get the issue first
17:00:06 [hhalpin]
ack pchampin
17:00:15 [Zakim]
pchampin, you wanted to ask a very basic question about cliqset
17:00:38 [AlexPassant]
pchampin: cliqset: generate activity streams from different sources
17:00:48 [tpa]
q+ to ask about consumption & potential uses of ActivityStreams
17:00:48 [AlexPassant]
... to what extent do you get the correct verb from these sources ?
17:01:16 [AlexPassant]
.. feed reformating or getting information from the site using API ?
17:01:17 [chrismessina]
17:02:04 [pchampin]
it *is* great :)
17:02:17 [AlexPassant]
chrismessina: consume the feed from the provider
17:02:25 [AlexPassant]
... hope that richer amount of information will come from the sources
17:02:31 [AlexPassant]
... more precise verbs that show up in the feed
17:02:36 [AlexPassant]
.. or richer object definition
17:02:43 [AlexPassant]
... define tthe target of an activity
17:02:55 [AlexPassant]
... e.g. adding flickr to a set in flickr
17:03:01 [AlexPassant]
... tracking a photo album, etc.
17:03:07 [AlexPassant]
... as opposed to follow each individual picture
17:03:31 [pchampin]
17:03:32 [rreck]
in my experience shame doesnt work
17:03:57 [chrismessina]
17:04:07 [AlexPassant]
... would like to get buddypress adopt activiystreams
17:04:21 [AlexPassant]
... open source PHP activity streams parser would be great
17:04:27 [AlexPassant]
... convincing people to adopt it
17:04:30 [hhalpin]
ack hhalpin
17:04:32 [chrismessina]
17:04:48 [danbri]
chrismessina, you're saying there's no good opensrc php consumer, yet?
17:05:01 [chrismessina]
there is not
17:05:02 [AlexPassant]
... underlying code / libraries should accelerate the adoption
17:05:24 [danbri]
ok, maybe i know a funded project that might help there ... ( ... do you have a requirements spec?
17:06:07 [hhalpin]
17:06:10 [hhalpin]
Sounds british :)
17:06:15 [chrismessina]
17:06:20 [hhalpin]
Will note that...
17:06:42 [AlexPassant]
chrismessina: other examples of formats for activities
17:06:42 [chrismessina]
17:06:44 [AlexPassant]
... social desktop
17:06:46 [AlexPassant]
... linkedin
17:06:57 [hhalpin]
Well, just looking for other tech in the same space, but it's clear activitystreams seems to have the momentum...
17:06:59 [AlexPassant]
... none of them is moving forward interoperable standards
17:07:09 [danbri]
also some discussion around xmpp community for activity streams over xmpp ---
17:07:24 [AlexPassant]
.. shoudl be interoperable, shoud be open
17:07:41 [AlexPassant]
... role of W3C: valuable to provide spotlight on this work
17:08:01 [AlexPassant]
... thinking about the role W3C plays in incubating things
17:08:08 [AlexPassant]
... boards member of the OpenWeb fundation
17:08:23 [AlexPassant]
... as it was hard to understand how W3C coudl bootstrap such grassroots projects
17:08:29 [AlexPassant]
.. take about 1.5 years / 2 years
17:08:37 [AlexPassant]
... but becoming a defacto standard
17:08:48 [AlexPassant]
.... while working independantly from a standard body
17:09:29 [hhalpin]
I think it's a great amount of success...
17:09:32 [AlexPassant]
... like to see other similar efforts succeed as well
17:09:37 [AlexPassant]
... based on the work theyre doing
17:09:39 [DKA]
17:09:57 [danbri]
(+1 to all that)
17:09:58 [AlexPassant]
... interested in how this kind of work can be supported
17:10:17 [AlexPassant]
hhalpin: would like to outline some kind of plan
17:10:27 [AlexPassant]
... should W3C provide infrastructure
17:10:32 [AlexPassant]
.. what are the pros and cons
17:10:36 [AlexPassant]
... IP policies, etc.
17:10:47 [danbri]
q+ to mention w3c process is in-scope
17:11:18 [AlexPassant]
... transition period, time for suggestions
17:11:35 [AlexPassant]
... looking for suggestions
17:11:36 [chrismessina]
linkedin's verbs:
17:11:41 [hhalpin]
ack DKA
17:12:22 [AlexPassant]
DKA: how W3C can help such efforts
17:12:39 [hhalpin]
brainstorming about how to open up W3C and get relationships with all other foundations and standards bodies would be useful.
17:12:45 [AlexPassant]
... W3C key goal is to let the web open
17:12:52 [hhalpin]
and what resources the W3C has to offer the wider community
17:12:54 [danbri]
(mentioned )
17:13:02 [AlexPassant]
... XG process started few years ago
17:13:03 [hhalpin]
it's just kinda unclear what the wider community wants.
17:13:09 [AlexPassant]
... time for starting working on such topics
17:13:16 [AlexPassant]
... lots of XG now
17:13:17 [hhalpin]
wider = everyone working to keep the web open
17:13:36 [cperey]
17:14:08 [AlexPassant]
... question shoud be how can W3C facilitate such effots
17:14:11 [AlexPassant]
17:14:47 [AlexPassant]
chrismessina: DISO and activity projects done on spare time
17:14:56 [AlexPassant]
... did them as believe in Open Web
17:15:06 [AlexPassant]
... find things to build better and richer solutions
17:15:56 [AlexPassant]
... compagnies that have IP who decided that they come together to advance the set of things
17:16:05 [AlexPassant]
... avoid to much fragmentation of a market
17:16:36 [AlexPassant]
.. Web is a more fluid place, subject to changes
17:16:51 [AlexPassant]
... very essential to come up with patterns that are easy to adopt / use
17:16:56 [AlexPassant]
... to drive interoperable standards
17:17:01 [danbri]
17:17:08 [DKA]
17:17:22 [tpa]
17:17:53 [danbri]
it's more a w3c observation
17:18:30 [AlexPassant]
... bring new protocols but make sure to ensure the openess
17:18:40 [AlexPassant]
... standards bodies created solutions for large compagnies
17:18:58 [hhalpin]
Good point re ramp for smaller projects
17:19:13 [hhalpin]
ack danbri
17:19:13 [Zakim]
danbri, you wanted to mention w3c process is in-scope
17:19:52 [hhalpin]
we need some sort of relationship re smaller bodies.
17:20:04 [hhalpin]
and now the massive amount of creativity which is in the grassroots
17:20:14 [hhalpin]
(and then relationships with larger bodies like IETF)
17:20:57 [rreck]
you broke up a little danbri
17:21:00 [cperey]
getting late, guys
17:21:19 [cperey]
we need to (cut the song short and) close this meeting!
17:21:26 [danbri]
basically W3C can be what we make of it, ...
17:21:32 [hhalpin]
we'll close after question from tpa
17:21:36 [AlexPassant]
chrismessina: openess in an networked world
17:21:37 [hhalpin]
but feel free to exist..
17:21:44 [hhalpin]
free to exit.
17:21:53 [Zakim]
17:22:22 [AlexPassant]
... W3C becomes an engie for interoperability of open technologies
17:23:13 [danbri]
one of the issues re w3c membership model, is that it becomes hard to structure w3c so pressure is put on its members to play well w/ standards...
17:23:20 [DKA]
17:23:22 [hhalpin]
ack tpa
17:23:25 [hhalpin]
17:23:25 [danbri]
(because they're supplying $)
17:24:13 [AlexPassant]
tpa: efforts like openid and oauth where supported by people working on the Web
17:24:17 [AlexPassant]
... much more idealist process
17:24:29 [AlexPassant]
... W3C has not doing that so far
17:24:35 [AlexPassant]
... q on activity streams
17:24:46 [AlexPassant]
... lots of discussion on publishing and having people on boards
17:24:50 [danbri]
(re individuals vs employers, ... often people do have relevant employers, but it's the individual who is the driver, and the employer situation is often damage control, ie. making sure they behave well re patents)
17:24:51 [AlexPassant]
... but cannot find lot of applications
17:25:09 [AlexPassant]
chrismessina: challenging in terms of adoption
17:25:21 [AlexPassant]
... motivate the consumer
17:25:29 [AlexPassant]
... then producers
17:25:35 [AlexPassant]
... chicken and egg problem
17:25:44 [hhalpin]
I imagine Chrome will take it up...
17:25:48 [AlexPassant]
.. windows live support
17:26:05 [AlexPassant]
... if you create a widget, it produces a stream
17:26:10 [AlexPassant]
... friends are able to subscribe
17:26:17 [AlexPassant]
... P2P process to the browsers
17:26:27 [AlexPassant]
... larger publishers (youtube, NYT)
17:26:35 [AlexPassant]
... more a timing issue
17:26:43 [AlexPassant]
... once spec will be out, hope to see rapid adoption
17:27:17 [AlexPassant]
... twitter introduced an important verb: to follow
17:27:30 [AlexPassant]
... can follow people whatever client is used
17:28:58 [hhalpin]
we dont' have any clear answers quite yet
17:29:04 [hhalpin]
Chris Messina Prime
17:29:39 [rreck]
thanks Chris
17:29:42 [chrismessina]
thanks all!
17:29:43 [hajons]
17:29:44 [tpa]
thanks :)
17:29:46 [DKA]
+1 thanks Chris!
17:29:47 [AlexPassant]
17:30:01 [Adam]
we will be adding it to our existing activity streams
17:30:05 [Adam]
inside Boeing
17:30:07 [Zakim]
- +
17:30:16 [hhalpin]
Meeting Adjourned.
17:30:18 [rreck]
bye all
17:30:19 [Zakim]
17:30:21 [Zakim]
- +1.412.225.aakk
17:30:21 [Zakim]
- +1.774.811.aall
17:30:22 [Zakim]
17:30:22 [Zakim]
17:30:23 [Zakim]
17:30:23 [Zakim]
17:30:24 [Zakim]
17:30:26 [pchampin]
17:30:27 [Zakim]
17:30:30 [Zakim]
17:30:31 [melvster]
17:30:31 [Zakim]
17:30:37 [Zakim]
17:30:43 [tpa]
AlexPassant:, hhalpin there were some typos / misunderstanding in the writeup of my last comment
17:30:44 [Zakim]
17:30:48 [melvster]
melvster has left #swxg
17:30:55 [tpa]
How should I propose edits to that :)
17:31:15 [hhalpin]
tpa, just rewrite the comment here
17:31:20 [hhalpin]
and i'll fix it when I clean up the meeting.
17:32:08 [tpa]
tpa: efforts like openid and oauth where supported by people working on the Web but not necessarily in the right field so they tend to participate as individuals. W3C should probably have a clear policy of allowing individuals to join to attract the same kind of crowd and efforts
17:32:12 [hhalpin]
17:32:26 [hhalpin]
we should have a telecon on W3C process and W3C role once we have some straman proposals.
17:32:26 [tpa]
tpa: also, have a more iterative process, like those groups, which historically the W3C has not been good at.
17:32:45 [tpa]
hhalpin: yes, that'd be great
17:32:56 [hhalpin]
17:33:02 [tpa]
I think there are some clear point to report back on
17:33:13 [tpa]
but we're so in the middle of them, we don't necessarily see them
17:33:18 [hhalpin]
trackbot, end meeting
17:33:18 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
17:33:18 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been +39.011.228.aaaa, +049172247aabb, hhalpin, +1.774.811.aacc, +1.781.273.aadd, claudio, MacTed, +7.970.94.aaff, rreck, AlexPassant, tpa,
17:33:19 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
17:33:19 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate trackbot
17:33:20 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
17:33:20 [RRSAgent]
I see 3 open action items saved in :
17:33:20 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: [DONE] cperey to take business narrative [1]
17:33:20 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
17:33:20 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: (2 weeks) hhalpin explain to henry and oshani doc editing process for usecases (2 weeks) [2]
17:33:20 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
17:33:20 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: tanglade to tag existing stories [3]
17:33:20 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
17:33:21 [tpa]
there's stuff we've heard at every call
17:33:22 [Zakim]
... petef, +1.314.683.aagg, +1.207.220.aahh, +, bblfish, danbri, pchampin, +1.412.225.aakk, Adam, +1.774.811.aall, Anita, cperey
17:33:32 [tpa]
and don't notice anymore