19:41:44 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #ssn
19:41:44 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/12/02-ssn-irc
19:41:55 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #ssn
19:42:03 <Holger> zakim, this will be INC_SSN 
19:42:03 <Zakim> ok, Holger; I see INC_SSN()3:00PM scheduled to start in 18 minutes
19:42:20 <Holger> Meeting: SSN XG 2-December-2009
19:42:26 <Holger> Chair: Holger
19:42:32 <Holger> Regrets: Kerry, Krzysztof, Manfred, Payam, Oscar
19:42:46 <Holger> agenda+ Roll call
19:42:53 <Holger> agenda+ Use cases
19:43:12 <Holger> agenda+ Ontology
19:43:21 <Holger> agenda+ AOB
19:46:50 <Danh_DERI> Danh_DERI has joined #ssn
19:52:42 <Zakim> INC_SSN()3:00PM has now started
19:52:49 <Zakim> + +36.2.32.aaaa
19:53:18 <Holger> zakim, +36.2.32.aaaa is me
19:53:18 <Zakim> +Holger; got it
19:53:28 <Holger> zakim, who's on the phone?
19:53:28 <Zakim> On the phone I see Holger
19:55:47 <Zakim> +??P1
19:59:25 <Zakim> +??P2
20:00:19 <Arthur> Arthur has joined #ssn
20:00:28 <Luis> Luis has joined #ssn
20:00:37 <rgarcia> rgarcia has joined #ssn
20:00:56 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
20:01:16 <Zakim> +??P8
20:01:24 <krp> krp has joined #ssn
20:01:37 <Zakim> +??P9
20:01:48 <Arthur> zakim, ??P8 is me
20:01:48 <Zakim> +Arthur; got it
20:01:56 <rgarcia> zakim, ??P9 is me
20:01:56 <Zakim> +rgarcia; got it
20:02:12 <laurent_oz> laurent_oz has joined #ssn
20:02:14 <Zakim> + +0797376aabb
20:02:35 <krp> zakim, +0797376aabb is me
20:02:35 <Zakim> +krp; got it
20:04:31 <Holger> zakim, who's on the phone?
20:04:31 <Zakim> On the phone I see Holger, ??P1, ??P2, [IPcaller], Arthur, rgarcia, krp
20:06:50 <Holger> agenda?
20:09:41 <Holger> ScribeNick: laurent_oz
20:10:11 <Holger> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/ssn/wiki/Use_Case_Device
20:10:45 <laurent_oz> Used MMI Use case number 10
20:11:43 <michael> michael has joined #ssn
20:11:48 <laurent_oz> Holger has added other sub-uses cases 
20:12:33 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
20:12:55 <michael> zakim, [IPcaller.a] is me
20:12:55 <Zakim> +michael; got it
20:14:41 <laurent_oz> Laurent wants more details to complete the use case and build examples 
20:14:46 <Holger> zakim, who's making noise?
20:14:50 <laurent_oz> e.g. the info about the sensor
20:14:58 <Zakim> Holger, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ??P1 (14%), [IPcaller] (18%)
20:17:19 <laurent_oz> Laurent will use the same template
20:17:52 <laurent_oz> Need at the top page to record the connections between the use cases.
20:18:47 <laurent_oz> No progress on the data discovery use cases
20:19:52 <laurent_oz> Kevin : issue with working the use case is touching domain ontologies 
20:20:38 <laurent_oz> Kevin see two motivations for use cases
20:20:43 <laurent_oz> Motivation for the work 
20:20:51 <laurent_oz> Validation of the ontologies 
20:20:52 <Danh_DERI> +q
20:21:10 <laurent_oz> Laurent 2nd one is important 
20:21:47 <Holger> ack Danh_DERI
20:21:56 <laurent_oz> Kevin issue do the complete validation ican be difficult
20:22:30 <laurent_oz> Danh How can we validate the ontology (general question)
20:22:59 <laurent_oz> Holger The ontology covers the information which an application need
20:23:44 <laurent_oz> Danh Do we have participants which will build an application based on the ontology = an "implemntation" partner like in other W3C groups?
20:25:25 <laurent_oz> Holger as an XG we may not do the full cycle It is not in the list of deliverables
20:26:11 <laurent_oz> Laurent It would be good to define a period where we receive feedback
20:26:29 <laurent_oz> Holger Time is an issue 
20:27:20 <laurent_oz> Kevin Agree that time is the issue Validation may not be complete 
20:27:58 <laurent_oz> Laurent Other W3C groups find it difficult to do validation of their ontologies
20:28:53 <laurent_oz> Michael has sent a new version of the ontology following discussion at the f2f meeting
20:29:50 <Danh_DERI> +q
20:30:17 <krp> +q
20:30:20 <laurent_oz> Raul's question/comment how much will we cover the observation ontology?
20:30:33 <krp> How many concepts are missing?
20:30:37 <Holger> ack Danh_DERI
20:31:03 <laurent_oz> Raul wants to add a couple of properties on the observation side
20:31:19 <laurent_oz> Danh ask what metadata is used for 
20:31:42 <laurent_oz> Raul it's an observation metadata
20:31:42 <Holger> zakim, who's on the phone?
20:31:42 <Zakim> On the phone I see Holger, ??P1, ??P2, [IPcaller], Arthur, rgarcia, krp, michael
20:32:19 <laurent_oz> Danh This part is confusing 
20:33:21 <laurent_oz> Raul This is a place where people can insert more information 
20:33:22 <krp> Yeah, I'd agree, a metadata class is disconcerting
20:34:25 <laurent_oz> Danh There are other way to extend it
20:35:09 <laurent_oz> The Metadata part has been proposed by Raul (last message in the mailing list)
20:35:44 <Holger> ack krp
20:35:49 <laurent_oz> Kevin This is a transposition of O&M into the ontology Question what is missing 
20:35:55 <laurent_oz> Raul Time and Quality
20:36:55 <laurent_oz> Luis Often two different times for an observation: sampling and result
20:37:12 <Danh_DERI> +q
20:37:22 <Holger> ack Danh_DERI
20:37:22 <laurent_oz> Observation has a time Result is only a value now but may also have a time
20:39:41 <laurent_oz> Danh Location information is "outside" or "inside" ?
20:40:14 <Danh_DERI> +q
20:40:14 <laurent_oz> Holger W have the placeholder for it as an external ontology 
20:40:44 <Holger> ack Danh_DERI
20:41:09 <michael> we just didn
20:41:25 <laurent_oz> Danh We have not defined a range for the result time (precise the datatype of the class) 
20:41:40 <michael> we just didn't discuss it at the face-to-face.  The ontology was just meant to show what we discussed at the f2f.
20:41:41 <laurent_oz> (datatype or class)
20:42:42 <Luis> +q
20:43:42 <laurent_oz> Arthur in the Sensor Michael sent us, Sensor and Device  - how they relate to each other
20:44:11 <laurent_oz> f2f discussion : Sensor = the abstract description and Device the physical thing 
20:44:35 <laurent_oz> That was Michael's interpretation
20:44:41 <Holger> ack Luis
20:45:32 <krp> Did we manage to get hold of the wallchart photos from the f2f?
20:45:53 <krp> (he says, regretting he didn't have a camera on him that day)
20:46:31 <rgarcia> +q
20:46:35 <laurent_oz> Luis SensorMl has a hierarchy - We have to precise this hierarchy for  System, Process, Sensor Device 
20:46:38 <Arthur> +q
20:46:50 <laurent_oz> Luis Currently we don't track these comments
20:46:54 <Holger> ack rgarcia
20:46:56 <michael> I jotted down the picture on the minutes from the wall chart
20:47:16 <laurent_oz> rgarcia: need to document the ontology further on these points
20:47:46 <laurent_oz> Arthur WebProtege can we use the versioning? 
20:48:02 <Holger> ack Arthur
20:48:03 <laurent_oz> Holger We have not managed to set it up
20:48:53 <krp> Shame... the photos of the various options would be handy to refresh my brain ;)
20:49:08 <laurent_oz> Action: Arthur to check possibility to install Protege
20:49:32 <michael> I thought someone did take pictures
20:49:49 <laurent_oz> You can put them of flickr too and create a group
20:50:32 <laurent_oz> Holger need to track the ones done by Manfred and Amit
20:50:33 <Danh_DERI> +q
20:51:56 <rgarcia> WebProtege also helps to track changes and discussions
20:52:10 <Holger> ack Danh_DERI
20:52:25 <laurent_oz> Holger sums up what was discussed at f2f o common ontology tools (webprotege)
20:53:06 <laurent_oz> Luis describes how the mmi repository record the changes every time you upload the ontology 
20:53:54 <laurent_oz> Danh's colleague Richard can help/propose alternatives 
20:55:37 <michael> Isn't there a w3c tracker?
20:55:46 <laurent_oz> Luis wants to know how we synchronise the editing of the ontology - we need a process - can use a wiki page in support of it
20:56:03 <laurent_oz> W3C has an issue tracker 
20:56:54 <Arthur> http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/
20:57:16 <laurent_oz> Discussion two sides: tasks and changes at the ontology level
20:58:08 <laurent_oz> Current processs: Michael as the main custodian Feedback on the ontology through the meeting
20:58:44 <laurent_oz> Intent: Ontology editable by all and a visible tracking thread of changes 
20:59:33 <laurent_oz> Luis example: 1) submit a change 2) discuss in the meeting 3) make the change 
20:59:51 <laurent_oz> +1
20:59:56 <krp> +1
20:59:56 <Danh_DERI> +1
20:59:57 <rgarcia> +1
20:59:58 <Holger> +1
21:00:17 <laurent_oz> Holger do we agree on this new approach (answers are above) 
21:00:54 <laurent_oz> Action : Holger to contact W3C to have a tracker
21:02:10 <Zakim> -krp
21:02:13 <Zakim> -rgarcia
21:02:19 <laurent_oz> Laurent Will add stuff on Semantioc Markup page - Topic to be handled at next meeting 
21:02:26 <Zakim> -Arthur
21:02:27 <Zakim> -michael
21:02:38 <Arthur> Arthur has left #ssn
21:02:42 <Holger> zakim, bye 
21:02:42 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were Holger, [IPcaller], Arthur, rgarcia, krp, michael
21:02:42 <Zakim> Zakim has left #ssn
21:02:52 <Holger> rrsagent, make log public 
21:03:02 <Holger> rrsagent, draft minutes
21:03:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/12/02-ssn-minutes.html Holger
21:03:23 <Holger> rrsagent, bye 
21:03:23 <RRSAgent> I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/12/02-ssn-actions.rdf :
21:03:23 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Arthur to check possibility to install Protege [1]
21:03:23 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/12/02-ssn-irc#T20-49-08
21:03:23 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Holger to contact W3C to have a tracker [2]
21:03:23 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/12/02-ssn-irc#T21-00-54