09:40:25 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #mediafrag
09:40:25 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/12/02-mediafrag-irc
09:40:27 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
09:40:27 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #mediafrag
09:40:29 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be IA_MFWG
09:40:29 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see IA_MFWG()5:00AM scheduled to start in 20 minutes
09:40:30 <trackbot> Meeting: Media Fragments Working Group Teleconference
09:40:30 <trackbot> Date: 02 December 2009
09:41:06 <raphael> Chair: Raphael
09:41:12 <raphael> Regrets: Erik, Davy, Jack
09:41:39 <raphael> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2009Dec/0003.html
09:41:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/12/02-mediafrag-minutes.html raphael
10:03:10 <raphael> zakim, code?
10:03:10 <Zakim> the conference code is 3724 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), raphael
10:03:23 <Zakim> IA_MFWG()5:00AM has now started
10:03:30 <Zakim> + +49.300.aaaa
10:03:37 <raphael> zakim, aaaa is me
10:03:37 <Zakim> +raphael; got it
10:04:21 <Zakim> + +1.617.324.aabb
10:04:27 <raphael> Present: Raphael, Silvia, Yves, Philip (irc), Michael
10:06:52 <Zakim> +??P4
10:08:05 <Zakim> + +3539149aacc
10:08:10 <mhausenblas> Zakim, aacc is me
10:08:10 <Zakim> +mhausenblas; got it
10:08:42 <silvia> zakim, mute me
10:08:42 <Zakim> Silvia should now be muted
10:09:12 <Yves> Scribe: Yves
10:09:59 <raphael> Minutes from last week: http://www.w3.org/2009/11/25-mediafrag-minutes.html
10:10:02 <raphael> +1 for accepting
10:10:19 <Yves> no objection => accepted
10:10:24 <silvia> +1
10:11:46 <Yves> Topic: Specification
10:12:19 <raphael> ACTION-112?
10:12:19 <trackbot> ACTION-112 -- Raphaël Troncy to propose a digest of Conrad and current's proposal regarding the use of existing and custom headers for the communication UA server -- due 2009-09-25 -- OPEN
10:12:19 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/112
10:12:20 <Yves> We have the one round trip version, and the two round trips versions
10:12:29 <raphael> close ACTION-112
10:12:29 <trackbot> ACTION-112 Propose a digest of Conrad and current's proposal regarding the use of existing and custom headers for the communication UA server closed
10:12:51 <Yves> Yves: what make you think that the one-round trip version can't be cached?
10:13:20 <Yves> Raphael: implementation issue only, current implementation can't without knowing the unit
10:14:03 <Yves> Yves: right, but implementation can't exist before the spec is ready :)
10:14:28 <silvia> zakim, unmute me
10:14:28 <Zakim> Silvia should no longer be muted
10:14:40 <Yves> Raphael: we can then document expectation on cient servers and proxies (wrt support/implementation)
10:15:11 <Yves> Yves: that would do it
10:15:20 <raphael> s/cient/client
10:15:53 <raphael> Silvia: there is a optimal solution and then divergent cases ... this is how section 3 is written
10:16:30 <raphael> Yves: changing the UA is not easy
10:16:47 <Yves> Silvia: changing servers and clients is easy, proxies are not easy to update
10:17:21 <Yves> Yves: By proxy you mean caches, proxies will work perfectly well
10:18:02 <silvia> I mean caching proxies indeed
10:18:29 <silvia> zakim, mute me
10:18:29 <Zakim> Silvia should now be muted
10:18:46 <foolip> request to speak (write)
10:19:36 <Zakim> -Silvia
10:19:43 <raphael> Raphael: indeed my asumption is that we have a UA conformant to the media fragment spec (parse), a server like Davy's one that support MF URI and that's it
10:19:44 <Yves> Yves: just to mention that I am not against the two round trip approach :)
10:19:57 <raphael> ... i.e. no caches have been modified
10:20:40 <Zakim> +??P4
10:20:53 <silvia> zakim, ??P4 is silvia
10:20:53 <Zakim> +silvia; got it
10:21:01 <silvia> zakim, mute me
10:21:01 <Zakim> silvia should now be muted
10:21:08 <raphael> Raphael: do you agree that the 2 round-trips approach allow to cache fragments without changing cache implementation ?
10:21:30 <Yves> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2009Dec/0008.html
10:21:42 <Yves> GET /2008/WebVideo/Fragments/media/fragf2f.mp4 HTTP/1.1
10:21:42 <Yves>   Host: www.w3.org
10:21:42 <Yves>   Accept: video/*
10:21:42 <Yves>   Fragment: time:npt=12-21
10:21:42 <raphael> Yves: time ranges are cacheable but need implementation. 2 rounds trip is a hack to allow current proxies to cache
10:21:47 <Zakim> -silvia
10:21:55 <Yves> HTTP 200 OK
10:21:55 <Yves>   Content-Length: 3571437
10:21:55 <Yves>   Content-Fragment: time:npt=12-21
10:21:55 <Yves>   Vary: Fragment
10:22:51 <Yves> we should add Content-Location: /2008/WebVideo/Fragments/media/fragf2f.mp4?t=12-21
10:23:00 <raphael> Yves: in Conrad's proposal, case 1.2.b, we need to add a Content-Location header in the response
10:23:48 <Zakim> +??P4
10:24:05 <silvia> zakim, ??P4 is silvia
10:24:05 <Zakim> +silvia; got it
10:24:08 <silvia> zakim, mute me
10:24:08 <Zakim> silvia should now be muted
10:24:29 <foolip> is there a speaker queue?
10:24:41 <raphael> yes, Philip
10:25:07 <raphael> Yves: my concern is that in the case of Conrad's proposal, if you have 2 request, the second one will flush the cache of the first one
10:25:08 <foolip> I would like to note that the NPT syntax in the HTTP headers examples are inconsistent. Would it not be best to define a normalized form? The UA would have to pick a formatting anyway unless it just copies it verbatim (in which case it doesn't actually know which offset it is requesting or if it's valid syntax).
10:26:11 <raphael> Philip, can you point us to this inconsistency ?
10:26:13 <raphael> I don't see it
10:26:38 <foolip> "time:npt 11.85-21.16/36" vs "time:npt=12-21"
10:26:55 <Yves> ah it's the range reply syntax
10:27:08 <Yves> which is starting time -end time / total time
10:27:15 <silvia> zakim, unmute me
10:27:15 <Zakim> silvia should no longer be muted
10:27:24 <Yves> you have the same asymetry in byte ranges
10:27:56 <foolip> in either case, NPT should be normalized, so that it isn't sometimes 0:00:12, sometimes 12 and sometimes 12s
10:28:04 <raphael> Philip: we follow the same pattern that the bytes range request ... with a dissimetry between request and response
10:28:15 <silvia> zakim, mute me
10:28:15 <Zakim> silvia should now be muted
10:28:22 <raphael> it is not 0:00:12
10:28:30 <raphael> where did you see this Philip ?
10:28:40 <foolip> raphael: some more zeroes?
10:28:50 <silvia> foolip: the syntax is given in http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/WD-media-fragments-spec/#naming-syntax
10:28:56 <raphael> I thought I have normallized the npt syntax
10:29:06 <silvia> foolip: if something does not conform to that syntax, it is a typo
10:29:13 <raphael> Section 5 contains indeed typos
10:29:24 <foolip> so which format is normalized?
10:29:27 <silvia> I think section 5 still needs a general work-over
10:29:35 <foolip> the ABNF allows any kind of variation
10:30:13 <foolip> not any, but many variations of the same time
10:30:46 <silvia> ah, yes, we decided to give the user the freedom to specify relatively freely, but the syntax on the wire is fixed
10:31:05 <foolip> that's good, where is it defined?
10:31:28 <silvia> not yet in the spec - needs to go into section 5
10:31:37 <foolip> ok, so we are already in agreement that this is neeed
10:31:40 <foolip> needed
10:31:41 <foolip> good
10:31:54 <silvia> yup, indeed
10:32:12 <foolip> I suggest normalizing to seconds without s, but that's just me
10:32:16 <foolip> anything is fine
10:33:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/12/02-mediafrag-minutes.html raphael
10:33:26 <foolip> as long as there can only be one possible string output for each input (makes writing conformance test suites lot easier too)
10:33:38 <silvia> yes, indeed
10:33:46 <raphael> OK, philip, I try to solve your problem ...
10:34:01 <foolip> thanks
10:34:01 <raphael> what do you would like to be changed in the spec?
10:34:14 <raphael> I'm not sure I understand it :-(
10:34:40 <raphael> 1) The Media Fragment URI syntax ? 2) The HTTP request header syntax ? 3) The HTTP response header ?
10:34:49 <foolip> it should say that when sending header X, the format MUST be Y, with Y unambiguously defined
10:34:52 <raphael> ... for example in the case of npt
10:35:03 <foolip> 2 and 3
10:35:20 <foolip> 1) is the parsing end, which we'll get to later I think
10:35:33 <silvia> zakim, unmute me
10:35:33 <Zakim> silvia should no longer be muted
10:35:42 <foolip> this should be a conformance requirement of both UAs and servers
10:35:50 <raphael> OK Philip, now I understand, indeed, we haven't specified yet the syntax for 2) and 3)
10:36:03 <raphael> The only things we have: http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/wiki/WG_Resolutions#Media_Fragment_Headers
10:36:16 <foolip> OK, then it's just a matter of time, I shall not worry any more :)
10:36:59 <raphael> +1
10:37:06 <raphael> ... or worry later
10:37:12 <Yves> Silvia, we need some ABNF there as well
10:37:52 <silvia> zakim, mute me
10:37:52 <Zakim> silvia should now be muted
10:37:58 <Yves> Yves: to summarize, lax URI syntax, strict header
10:39:09 <silvia> part of the syntax was started in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2009Sep/0099.html
10:39:22 <Yves> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-httpbis-p5-range-08
10:39:28 <silvia> but needs to go into ABNF
10:39:46 <raphael> Silvia, yes, it is even better summarized in http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/wiki/WG_Resolutions#Media_Fragment_Headers
10:40:04 <Yves> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-httpbis-p5-range-08#section-5.4.2
10:40:14 <Yves> other-ranges-specifier = other-range-unit "=" other-range-set
10:40:14 <Yves>      other-range-set = 1*CHAR
10:40:36 <Yves>    other-range-unit = token
10:40:56 <Yves> ACTION: Yves to come up with ABNF for header syntax
10:40:56 <trackbot> Created ACTION-123 - Come up with ABNF for header syntax [on Yves Lafon - due 2009-12-09].
10:41:42 <foolip> ABNF syntax without any use of " / " to that.
10:43:13 <raphael> Topic: Specific (cont.) - 2 roundtrips
10:43:30 <Yves> Yves: on the two round trip I have some reservation with the first 200 OK reply
10:43:33 <raphael> Yves: In the case of 2.1, first roundtrip response should be a 307 instead of 200
10:43:43 <Yves> may be better to have a 307 and redirect to itself with the right headers
10:43:47 <Yves> will followup by email
10:44:49 <Yves> Raphael: we need to update section 5
10:45:00 <silvia> zakim, unmute me
10:45:00 <Zakim> silvia should no longer be muted
10:45:15 <Yves> Silvia: happy to work on it
10:45:27 <raphael> Topic: Rework of the section 5
10:45:30 <raphael> See: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2009Dec/0009.html
10:46:16 <Yves> Sivia: what you summarized is in sync with what I had in mind, writing this will clarify things
10:46:33 <Yves> s/Sivia/Silvia/
10:46:57 <Yves> ...not clear that we need the Fragment: header, but don't remember what Conrad wanted it for
10:47:07 <Yves> ...but good that the email thread restarted
10:47:20 <silvia> zakim, mute me
10:47:20 <Zakim> silvia should now be muted
10:47:40 <Yves> Raphael: I proposed a restructuration plan for section 5
10:48:36 <mhausenblas> +1
10:48:40 <silvia> zakim, unmute me
10:48:40 <Zakim> silvia should no longer be muted
10:49:00 <Yves> Raphael: Silvia, do you want to work on specific sections? or all of them?
10:49:14 <Yves> Silvia: better if it is consistent
10:49:48 <Yves> ACTION: Silvia to rework section 5 according to Raphael's restructuration plan http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2009Dec/0009.html due 2009-12-15
10:49:48 <trackbot> Created ACTION-124 - Rework section 5 according to Raphael's restructuration plan http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2009Dec/0009.html due 2009-12-15 [on Silvia Pfeiffer - due 2009-12-09].
10:50:45 <silvia> zakim, unmute me
10:50:45 <Zakim> silvia was not muted, silvia
10:50:51 <silvia> zakim, mute me
10:50:51 <Zakim> silvia should now be muted
10:51:01 <foolip> where in section 5 will the processing requirements (parsing) go? part of MF resolution?
10:51:50 <Yves> depends on the author :)
10:51:51 <silvia> I think it should be section 5.5 ABNF for HTTPrequest & response headers
10:52:07 <Yves> ACTION: Michael to revisit his ednote in section 5
10:52:07 <trackbot> Created ACTION-125 - Revisit his ednote in section 5 [on Michael Hausenblas - due 2009-12-09].
10:52:23 <foolip> I agree that most parts can be given as ABNF, but not all of it
10:52:34 <foolip> I can elaborate if it's not clear why.
10:52:49 <silvia> why not?
10:53:07 <raphael> Yes please Philip, I suggest we wait for Silvia's input and then complain what is not sufficiently specified
10:53:53 <Yves> Raphael: on the test cases, lots of action. postpone?
10:53:55 <foolip> sorry, difficult to guess who's talking over IRC
10:54:00 <Yves> => postponed
10:54:04 <raphael> ACTION-119?
10:54:04 <trackbot> ACTION-119 -- Yves Lafon to request admins to set up a cvs notifications mailing list and notifications -- due 2009-10-14 -- OPEN
10:54:04 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/119
10:54:50 <Yves> Yves: oops, will work on this
10:54:56 <silvia> foolip, can you clarify your opinion on ABNF via email?
10:55:06 <foolip> silvia: to you or the list?
10:55:12 <silvia> the list
10:55:14 <foolip> will do
10:55:25 <Yves> ADJOURNED
10:55:28 <Zakim> -mhausenblas
10:55:30 <Zakim> -raphael
10:55:32 <Zakim> -Yves
10:55:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/12/02-mediafrag-minutes.html Yves
10:55:40 <Zakim> -silvia
10:55:41 <Zakim> IA_MFWG()5:00AM has ended
10:55:43 <Zakim> Attendees were +49.300.aaaa, raphael, +1.617.324.aabb, Yves, Silvia, +3539149aacc, mhausenblas
10:55:44 <Yves> tracker, end telcon
10:55:55 <raphael> Raphael: I will make sure we follow-up the current thread of dicussion so we can converge rapidly between Conrad's and current's proposal
10:56:02 <Yves> trackbot, end telcon
10:56:02 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
10:56:02 <Zakim> sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
10:56:03 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
10:56:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/12/02-mediafrag-minutes.html trackbot
10:56:04 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
10:56:04 <RRSAgent> I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/12/02-mediafrag-actions.rdf :
10:56:04 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Yves to come up with ABNF for header syntax [1]
10:56:04 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/12/02-mediafrag-irc#T10-40-56
10:56:04 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Silvia to rework section 5 according to Raphael's restructuration plan http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2009Dec/0009.html due 2009-12-15 [2]
10:56:04 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/12/02-mediafrag-irc#T10-49-48
10:56:04 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Michael to revisit his ednote in section 5 [3]
10:56:04 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/12/02-mediafrag-irc#T10-52-07