13:56:46 RRSAgent has joined #egov 13:56:46 logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/11/25-egov-irc 13:56:55 trackbot, start telcon 13:56:58 RRSAgent, make logs public 13:57:00 Zakim, this will be EGOV 13:57:00 ok, trackbot, I see T&S_EGOV()9:00AM already started 13:57:01 Meeting: eGovernment Interest Group Teleconference 13:57:01 Date: 25 November 2009 13:58:14 + +0789422aabb 13:58:58 - +0789422aabb 13:59:37 + +0789422aacc 14:00:10 - +0789422aacc 14:00:20 +Karen 14:00:36 + +49.178.404.aadd 14:00:42 +??P8 14:00:54 + +1.703.362.aaee 14:00:56 + +1.509.464.aaff 14:01:10 + +0789422aagg 14:01:45 Rachel has joined #egov 14:02:40 + +1.303.748.aahh 14:02:50 Josema is chairing call today 14:03:04 Brian in Denver 14:03:14 (Just replied to Thomas's last email in regards to his points on Item 6.) 14:03:29 HughB in UK 14:03:47 Hugh Glaser = hg in UK 14:04:07 sandro has joined #egov 14:04:08 HughB in Brisbane, not online atm, but monitoring 14:04:13 (Australia) 14:04:14 RRSAgent, pointer? 14:04:14 See http://www.w3.org/2009/11/25-egov-irc#T14-04-14 14:04:25 tb = Thomas Bandholtz (Germany) 14:04:28 Newbie on these things so be gentle if I mess up :-) 14:04:33 I'm trying to get on the phone but cannot so far, I have to go to another room and try, I'll be back in a minute or two 14:04:36 is kevin around 14:04:37 ? 14:04:44 +Sandro 14:04:51 Again, I am IRC only tonight 14:04:55 Yes, Kevin is on the call, Josema 14:06:04 q? 14:06:11 so... phone system is broken here, international calls not working, technical staff working on it :-((( 14:06:25 so, if kevin or sandro can chair for now, agenda is already loaded 14:06:27 agenda? 14:06:48 I have to chase a guy or two for a couple minutes and see if I can get this fixed 14:06:57 sandro has changed the topic to: agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-egov-ig/2009Nov/0043 14:06:59 I'm so sorry... checked the line this morning! 14:07:01 scribe: sandro 14:07:02 Josema, Kevin is going to get it started 14:07:10 thanks so much! 14:07:25 topic: Agenda adjustments and next meetings 14:07:25 Sandro: Next meeting is 9 December 14:07:35 ...question of whether to have a meeting on 23 December 14:07:37 next meetings: 9 Dec 2009, 23 Dec 2009?? 14:07:48 kevin: Shall we meet 23 December? 14:07:56 zakim, who is on the call? 14:07:56 On the phone I see +1.202.731.aaaa, Karen, +49.178.404.aadd, ??P8, +1.703.362.aaee, +1.509.464.aaff, +0789422aagg (muted), +1.303.748.aahh (muted), Sandro 14:08:23 No mtg on 12/23 14:08:30 pass 14:08:33 ok 14:09:07 Kevin: Okay, no mtg 12/23 14:09:44 NEXT MEETINGS: 09 December, 06 January, 20 January. 14:09:56 Kevin: Agenda adjustments? 14:10:15 cory: I'd like to about what we're doing 14:10:21 kevin: Sure, at the end. 14:10:40 Cory Casenave, OMG would like to provide update 14:10:42 sam_deskin: I'm here from openjurist.org 14:11:00 kevin: scribe for next meeting? 14:11:47 Sandro: We should probably revive the scribe list! 14:12:02 NEXT SCRIBE: Kevin 14:12:10 topic: Introducing the Projects Page 14:12:35 Sandro: Various discussion about what activities the eGov Interest Group should do 14:12:42 ...Some consensus about the menu of projects 14:12:52 http://www.w3.org/2007/eGov/IG/wiki/Projects 14:12:53 sam, I have to apologize, I forgot to add openjurist to the agenda, sorry 14:12:56 ...but not clear about which ones have people willing to sign up for actions 14:13:14 ...I tried to use a "formalism" 14:13:18 ...to describe each project 14:13:28 ...who are people involved, target audience, what is problem they are having. 14:13:38 ...what does it look like if problem is solved, 14:13:45 ...description, status 14:13:55 ...I did some answering on a few, but not much 14:14:04 ...put names and short description 14:14:17 ...If people will look at page over next week, and fill in the details about those questions 14:14:27 ...Once filled in, we'll take to the mailing list 14:14:32 ...and start asking people to sign up and vote 14:14:38 ...maybe we would do a Web-based poll 14:14:43 ...See which ones have critical mass 14:14:49 ...and go ahead and start working on them 14:14:54 Kevin: We have Group Charter for next eyar 14:15:01 ...and an actvity plan 14:15:09 ...fairly broad activities and structure 14:15:16 ...but we want to get more measurable and focused 14:15:34 ...hope to get from our 150 people to get behind these different areas 14:15:40 ...I talked about this on a call about a month ago 14:15:46 ...Reviewing these five or six areas 14:15:52 ...Sandro has incorporated this into these points 14:16:05 ...We wanted to get the group feedback and to help structure 14:16:18 ...and decide how to reach our objectives 14:16:30 ...We can talk now, or ping me or Sandro with your opinions 14:16:38 ...That wiki page allows for group editing 14:16:45 Sandro: Yes, please edit this page directly 14:16:52 ...if you think you have an answer or refinement 14:16:58 ...Email me if you have trouble using the wiki 14:17:03 ...at sandro@w3.org 14:17:16 Kevin: Any initial comments about the wiki page? 14:17:32 ...We are also looking for leads for those areas 14:17:43 ...If you want to take lead and work with a task group, please let us know 14:17:49 List of all wiki accounts: http://www.w3.org/2007/eGov/IG/wiki/index.php?title=Special:Listusers&limit=500 14:18:37 Cory: I am in a car, so reading off the list would be helpful 14:18:43 ...just the title of the projects 14:19:01 Sandro: So, first one is "Government Linked Data, Techniques and Technologies" 14:20:36 I believe I put my hand up for Best Practice last Call, however I'm happy to also do general Web stuff for the group, given that's my day-to-day anyway 14:20:44 Brian: How do we express interest? 14:20:52 Kevin: Send an email to one of chairs or Sandro 14:20:59 Sandro: email to: 14:21:02 email to team-egov-chairs@w3.org 14:21:12 - +1.703.362.aaee 14:21:14 Sandro: Or put it on the wiki 14:21:40 + +1.703.362.aaii 14:22:00 kevin: The first year, we tried three task groups, but the mission was very broad 14:22:01 Kevin: We started with three task groups first of year, but we were too broad 14:22:30 I note that in this round there is little in Education and Outreach? 14:22:55 kevin: We're listening to those in govt who are asking us for things, eg archiving, gov 1.0 issues 14:23:59 Sandro: Chris asks about Education and Outreach piece 14:24:18 Just in the sense that the current TF items are OD focused. 14:24:25 Kevin: re E&O, GLD and E&O are the main areas of our charter, but E&O is not necessary a project in itself 14:24:50 kevin: There the editoral task force, and the comm team. 14:25:19 kevin: Each group has an Editorial and Comms angle, they are each doing some E&O 14:25:43 Cory: What are the landing pages for this? 14:25:52 cory: What is the Landing Page for Linked Open Data in Government. 14:26:27 kevin: We're working on next generation website for eGov. We're not there yet. 14:27:04 kevin: I took an action item to review the work done so far, and see how to restructure the wiki, so we can begin with that. 14:27:09 for example, I see Web Tech and some of GLD Strategy as part of E&O area 14:27:50 kevin: We had ambitious goals to get that done before the Gov2.0 summit, but due to various other changes in staffing and other people's projects, that didn't happen, but I think now we're back on track to have this happen before the holidays. 14:28:19 Sandro: Does anyone have anything else to say about the Projects Page? 14:28:25 ...Then we'll move onto the Web site discussion 14:28:50 Brian: After more people look at it, we can pick it up 9 Dec. 14:28:50 chair: kevin 14:29:12 topic: Web Site 14:29:16 +1 to Brian 14:29:35 Cory: I would like a persistent journal for LOD in Gov't 14:29:47 ...external links and landing page to collect overviews, white papers, success stories 14:30:28 Can we collaborate work with LOD Project in this? Joint web space? 14:30:34 kevin: Yes, we're very open to folks helping with the content. 14:31:15 Interesting question ChrisBeer. Maybe easiest to have some of them join the IG. 14:31:39 Topic: What's going on / coming up 14:31:55 subtopic: Gov 2.0 Expo 14:32:01 subtopic: FOSE 2010 14:32:03 original plan was to have some LOD people joining this group, have a specific TF working on LGD 14:32:11 panel like at gov 2.0 summit 14:32:17 kevin: I'll be leading up interop 14:32:26 kevin: Daniel and John will be on it, too. 14:32:39 Collaboration is good - already many places to put things - LOD, OK, ... 14:32:42 kevin: I was happy to have that panel approved. 14:33:18 yup, kudos and thx Karen, era for he 14:33:22 karen: I'm invited to be on the program committee for Gov 2.0 Expo, so I'll have more on that soon. 14:33:37 s/era for he/Vera for all the help and support 14:34:03 @Jose - if no one else is already a LoD member, I can join list and post a recruitment blurb? 14:34:16 +??P9 14:34:18 kevin: I'd like to refocus back on international issues; we've talked mostly about US and UK recently. We have other countries represented in IG, and I'd like their voices expressed at the Expo 14:34:48 kevin: Let's get some proposals to get that word out. 14:34:49 http://www.eswc2010.org end of may in greece, submit abstracts till 15, Dec 14:35:09 Sandro: There are a few other agenda items, like W3C's TPAC 14:35:09 subtopic: TPAC 2009 14:35:33 mib_yml9i4 has joined #egov 14:35:41 kevin: Alas, I got the flu and couldn't travel, so the eGov panel at TPAC was cancelled 14:35:54 karen: 1-1 followup with individuals 14:35:59 I have some good e-gov contacts here in Aust - I can certainly pass the word along 14:36:06 @ChrisBeer certainly, although I believe we have a few around already (Leigh Dodds and Jim Hendler come to mind) 14:36:21 @jose nps 14:36:32 karen: Definitely interest, but not clear for some folks how to plug in, so focus on projects is good. 14:37:20 Kevin: I'm working on a byline piece for NextGov, to clarify my controversial statements about PDF 14:38:13 kevin: Alan Morison from PWC is doing a piece on DataWeb as OS, . . . find him on twitter or msg me. 14:38:40 subtopic: ISWC 14:38:41 Sandro: Int'l Semantic Web Conference (ISWC) 14:38:52 ...I met Daniel and Cory there 14:38:59 ...we talked for a while, along with some others 14:39:04 ...nothing formally related to eGov 14:39:07 + +1.410.992.aajj 14:39:19 ...ISWC was near Washington, DC, so convenient location 14:39:28 Cory: I did a presentation on linked open data architecture 14:39:42 ...I think there was one other eGov focused presentation, but not a specific track 14:39:44 (Also George, and Brand) 14:39:55 joec has joined #egov 14:39:57 ...we are interested in more outreach here 14:40:14 ...and action items to further the LOD for Open Gov't initiatives going on now 14:40:32 ...George Thomas, myself, Brand Niemann involved, a few others 14:41:12 q+ 14:41:15 Hugh: the NYT announcement at ISWC of them doing LD version of their structure -- that's probably pretty important. 14:41:25 hugh: good when talking to Gov folks. 14:41:38 ack Karen 14:41:55 We just had a e-Gov mashup conference and competition here in Aust. under the auspices of Gov 2.0 Taskforce. Very successful, saw a lot interagency/private/ngo contact. Mashup competition certainly got people excited. 14:42:38 karen: The Guardian is also doing a big LD project. So we may want to look at publishing side more. Media Properties are active here. 14:42:54 Hugh: NYT is already doing the LD landgrab 14:43:27 http://mashupaustralia.org/ - prehaps we could do similar as outreach? 14:43:34 Cory: I also thought that was a great announcement. Maybe we can do a use case / success story. 14:43:46 Sandro: Any upcoming events 14:43:50 subtopic: Open Knowledge Foundation event [13 Nov 2009, London] 14:43:58 ...Does anyone know? 14:44:04 Hugh: 14:44:15 http://blog.okfn.org/2009/11/20/after-the-open-data-and-semantic-web-workshop/ 14:44:35 (I was not in attendance) 14:44:48 Hugh: Linked Data meets Open Knowledge. Highly interactive, quite good. The Open Knowledge enjoyed the linked data side. Good bridging. 14:45:18 Hugh: Some pushback from eGov and OpenKnowledge giving a little pushback on RDF. About 40 people from various places. Good discussion. 14:45:33 q+ 14:45:41 ack ChrisBeer 14:46:01 Managing the Australian Governments IT Requirements - 8 Dec 2009 14:46:01 anne has joined #egov 14:46:02 http://www.finance.gov.au/e-government/better-practice-and-collaboration/events/2009/managing_the_australian_governments_it_requirements.html 14:46:30 will report back, includes addresses from Aust. Gov 2.0 taskforce and others 14:46:58 subtopic: Jurix Conference 14:47:10 sandro: anyone? 14:47:32 subtopic: PdF Europe 2009 14:48:12 http://www.conftool.net/jurix09/sessions.php 14:48:31 brian: Jurix is a european conference about legal matters; I don't know more than their website 14:48:46 I spoke at PdF Europe 2009, gave a "weird" talk, a tale about transparency 14:48:46 http://blog.josema.net/2009/11/21/releasing-peoples-data/ 14:49:05 brian: specifically judicial branch 14:49:31 conference was interesting with several strategy talks and discussions 14:49:56 several projects from activists was also presented, many well known such as http://www.farmsubsidy.org 14:50:02 Topic: Discussion: Government Linked Data, Techniques and Technologies 14:50:22 networking was the best part, lots of discussion between gov people, NGOs, etc. 14:51:30 sandro: (reads agenda) 14:52:43 sam: How much is this about open jurist? 14:52:56 sandro: It's here for general discussion 14:53:20 sam: Shall I give Open Jurist as a discussion point? 14:54:12 sam: Open Jurist is website with about 650,000 supreme court, appelate court, and district court cases, from the 1700s to current -- open data, freely available 14:54:26 sam: What we're going that's a bit different is 14:54:49 ... We've gone through with Calais, and identified 14m semantic terms: people's name, places, occupations, etc. 14:54:57 ... many different categories 14:55:13 ... we plan on using these semantic points to let people access the data in new and different ways 14:55:26 ... the cases are currently linked to each as they refer to each other 14:55:32 s/from activists was/from activists were 14:55:42 +??P15 14:55:48 ... our next phase is to put US Code up on the web, and link to that 14:55:57 ... so we'll have both code law and case law 14:56:06 ... then we want to bring in the semantic web 14:56:19 ... i'm an attorney, not a semantic web expert 14:56:26 ... we'd like to do it right and do it well 14:56:40 ... so we're looking for how to do that, to make it most useful to people 14:57:21 kevin: Maybe talk to Joe Carmel. He's taken US Code data (rosetta stone) and done something interesting 14:57:43 joe: Let's talk off line about that. joe.carmel@comcast.net 14:58:03 kevin: Joe is an incredible resource 14:58:11 zakim, code? 14:58:11 the conference code is 3468 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), josema 14:58:15 sam: We've "semanticised" these cases 14:58:40 sam: We hope to be able to link things together in ways they haven't been linked before. Names, dates, .... 14:58:55 sam: So we can order and connect all the cases that are about John Hamilton 14:59:06 + +03498429aakk 14:59:15 sam: We've got a long way to go 14:59:24 zakim, aakk is me 14:59:24 +josema; got it 15:00:11 Sandro: I haven't used Calais 15:00:18 ...I believe they have a set of identifiers they use 15:00:26 ...not sure if they let you use your own 15:02:49 Sandro: It seems Sam is focused on the user experience 15:03:00 ...not the underlying technology of how RDF is available 15:03:39 sam: we got it from resource.org 15:03:54 person: not from law revision council? 15:05:09 sam: people have done this linking between cases, and cases-and-code, but we're not sure folks have done it for free before 15:05:27 sam: and we're trying to make it available in new and different ways 15:05:52 s/person/joe 15:06:49 sam: Our goal is to make the data useful in ways that are not available now. EG: show me all the cases from the 1960s that mention ACLU and that are about securing the release of inmates in overcrowded prisons and that the ACLU won, and tell me which states the ACLU won. 15:07:03 sam: And then How do those cases affect crime in those states vs other states 15:07:11 (WOW, I like that use case!) 15:07:35 Sandro: That sounds like a great thing to do 15:07:45 Brian: Sam, any future plans to include the underlying briefs? 15:07:52 ...Recent ABA decisions 15:07:59 ...have a connection through US Supreme Court 15:08:09 ...so that briefs, amicus briefs, are available in PDF 15:08:14 ...so at least info is available 15:08:18 ...any plans to go deeper? 15:08:25 ...would help public, not just lawyers 15:08:33 ...how judicial system works even more seems helpful 15:08:41 ...seems you are also going to look at connecting up with 15:08:50 ...taking deeper and more information seems a useful resource 15:08:54 q? 15:08:58 Sam: I am completely open to other sources 15:09:04 ...and pulling more things in, linking to more things 15:09:13 ...I was not aware of the amicus briefs that the ABA has 15:09:17 ...I will search on Google 15:09:23 Brian: I'll give you my email 15:09:46 brian: briangryth@gmail.com 15:09:47 ...Very interesting project; I'm an attorney as well, but no technical experience 15:10:00 Sam: Finding the data is a big hurdle 15:10:01 This is perfect case study. How do we give someone like Sam the best technology advice? 15:10:04 ...I don't know where the data is 15:10:08 so he can talk data types and identifiers. 15:10:15 ...I just found out that Google has managed to get every state's case law 15:10:23 ...We go back to 1700's for the Federal Gov't 15:10:29 ...We have been looking for this stuff forever 15:10:33 ...We're not Google 15:10:37 ...If it's out there, it's out there 15:10:46 Brian: I think they use Google Scholar; go to advance search 15:10:54 Sam: It's in the data, but not sure where they got it from 15:11:04 Brian: There are projects in Colorado on getting historical information 15:11:05 s/It's in/I've seen/ 15:11:10 ...Some of law schools doing that 15:11:28 Sam: Cases we have from 1700's and 1800's are PDFs online 15:11:32 ...readable online 15:11:43 ...the OCR of them 15:11:45 ...are crap 15:12:00 ...So actually being able to search and find what you are looking for is a shot in the dark 15:12:09 ...I don't know too many other people are putting this stuff up there 15:12:13 ...We are trying our best 15:12:18 ...dealing with what we have got 15:12:24 ...OYEZ.com or .og 15:12:35 ...has information like audio recordings of Supreme Court cases 15:12:38 ...from inside the court 15:12:42 http://www.oyez.org/ 15:12:46 ...We have toyed with linking to that as well 15:12:58 ...we are on the beginning of uphill climb on a large mountain 15:13:04 Brian: It is .org 15:13:27 Sam: First priority is to make available to the public 15:13:30 ...so they know it's out there 15:13:36 ...then make available to other uses 15:13:44 ...any thoughts there? 15:13:49 sam: using drupal 15:13:51 ...We are running system on DRUPAL 15:14:14 Sandro: Someone id themselves? 15:14:19 zakim, aagg is Hugh 15:14:19 +Hugh; got it 15:14:26 ack hugh 15:14:28 ack 15:14:31 ack aagg 15:14:35 +1 fabulous use case 15:14:41 ack +0789422aagg 15:15:09 hugh: This is a great use case. The first thing you need is give IRIs to the things you want to identify 15:15:11 mib_ymI9i4 is Owen Ambur 15:15:41 sam: So each term has a web page people can go to? 15:15:56 hugh: Probably, but in our world there's RDF behind each page 15:16:40 sam: the RDF from calais doubled our database after just going through 10% 15:17:01 hugh: technical questions about how to represent the RDF 15:17:36 hugh: What you now have is a whole bunch of RDF; some technical issues there. You've done a lot of the hard work, extracting the RDF. Now the question is how you publish it, making it available. 15:17:50 hugh: There are two overlapping ways to make it available 15:18:54 sam: we have a huge list of medical conditions extracted, for instance 15:19:08 hugh: The kind of complex query you're talking about is where SPARQL would come in 15:19:24 hugh: SPARQL enables systems to make those sorts of queries. 15:19:44 hugh: So you might give a nice page to users, but then how to do you do it? Use SPARQL. 15:19:57 q? 15:20:52 Sandro: There is this issue in RDF 15:21:03 ...you have all these diseases, like skin cancer 15:21:13 ...and a Web page on your site about skin cancer, and that page will have a URL 15:21:24 ...but also internally there has to be a differnt URI that IDs skin cancer 15:21:30 ...to join to other data about skin cancer 15:21:35 ...that needs to be different 15:21:41 ...every concept has two URLs 15:21:48 ...one internal knowledge representations 15:21:56 ...and the other the user interface about the thing 15:22:02 ...This is what you come across working with RDF 15:22:08 ...it does get tricky some times 15:22:11 ...ways to make them usable 15:22:28 Sam: the one internal knowledge based page, is like an XML page? 15:22:41 Sandro: That internal is identifier, not necessarily a page 15:22:49 ...you could present a page of data or present SPARQL 15:22:57 ? who is speaking? 15:23:07 Sandro: Like a data base key, an ID number 15:23:18 Joe: When you want to refer to skin cancer, you refer to that ID 15:23:25 ...all the skin cancers have that common iD 15:23:31 ...so you can still refer to that ID 15:23:38 Sandro: You can use same ID as Wikipedia 15:23:45 http://www.w3.org/TR/cooluris/ 15:23:45 ...or say the two are same as and connects the data 15:23:57 ...Is there a place on Wikipedia? 15:24:02 dbpedia.org 15:24:04 Sandro: dBpedia 15:24:21 ...If you play with dbpedia, you will see the URLs and those that parallel them 15:24:26 Joe: The same? 15:24:33 http://dbpedia.org/resource/Skin_cancer 15:24:33 Sandro: No, generating their own IDs 15:24:39 Jose: So a separate URi 15:24:48 ...just point to Wikipedia as one of the resources 15:24:51 Sandro: Exactly 15:24:57 ...Hugh just pasted the URI 15:25:07 Sandro: Log will be availble and I will email 15:25:08 q+ 15:25:16 ack Karen 15:25:44 I love this discussion since it really reflects what is happening out there and the role this group can play in helping people 15:25:52 karen: This has been a fascinating discussion, both technically, and the legal stuff. I'm interesting in comm side. 15:26:13 Sandro: Mostly we use the mailing list 15:26:23 sam: I sent an e-mail about this on Nov 5. 15:26:34 sam: "open jurist" e-mail 15:26:55 - +1.509.464.aaff 15:27:04 joe: One of our goals is to prepare a product that help gov't prepare their data for folks like open jurist 15:27:09 +1 15:27:10 +1 Joe carmel and kevin 15:27:13 sam's openjurist intro message: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-egov-ig/2009Nov/0008 15:27:35 +1 15:28:16 sam: It seems like if you have deep enough pockets (eg Google) the data is out there! Maybe they got the case books and scanned them. That's way beyond our financial capacity. 15:29:03 brian: You often have to pay to look up the information, from a secondary source that's republishing. 15:29:25 this scanning part reminds me somewhat of LoC's Chronicling America but no idea if they are planning on doing any LOD 15:29:44 joe: The gov't isn't providing the data in a good format, so folks have to use these 3rd party secondary sources. 15:29:57 When Sandro and I attended O'Reilly Gov 2.0 Summit, Carl Malamud was very keen on getting law data public 15:30:11 (Carl was a keynote speaker) 15:30:19 He is against paying for so much public legal data 15:30:36 kevin: Sam, why don't you re-send your e-mail. 15:30:48 kevin: Good, energizing discussion. :-) 15:31:03 kevin: Please review the Project page and help us keep things moving forward 15:31:16 kevin: Lots of gov't contacting us, US Gov't meetings 15:31:24 thanks so much, kevin, sandro, karen for taking care of chairing and scribing; apologies again 15:31:28