IRC log of sparql on 2009-11-24

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:46:16 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #sparql
14:46:16 [RRSAgent]
logging to
14:46:18 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
14:46:18 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #sparql
14:46:20 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 77277
14:46:20 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 14 minutes
14:46:20 [LeeF]
zakim, this will be SPARQL
14:46:21 [trackbot]
Meeting: SPARQL Working Group Teleconference
14:46:21 [trackbot]
Date: 24 November 2009
14:46:22 [Zakim]
ok, LeeF; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 14 minutes
14:46:24 [LeeF]
Chair: LeeF
14:46:27 [LeeF]
Scribe: Chimezie
14:46:36 [LeeF]
14:46:42 [AxelPolleres]
AxelPolleres has joined #sparql
14:53:51 [AlexPassant]
AlexPassant has joined #sparql
14:56:24 [kasei]
kasei has joined #sparql
14:57:44 [Zakim]
SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has now started
14:57:51 [Zakim]
+ +1.310.453.aaaa
14:58:06 [kasei]
Zakim, aaaa is me
14:58:06 [Zakim]
+kasei; got it
14:58:07 [Zakim]
14:58:08 [OlivierCorby]
OlivierCorby has joined #sparql
14:58:19 [LeeF]
zakim, Lee_Feigenbaum is me
14:58:19 [Zakim]
+LeeF; got it
14:58:25 [Zakim]
14:59:04 [kasei]
hmm... ok.
14:59:22 [Zakim]
+ +49.238.aabb
14:59:24 [kasei]
was appologizing ahead of time -- was travelling all day yesterday and haven't yet caught up on SD emails.
14:59:35 [sandro]
sandro has joined #sparql
14:59:40 [Zakim]
14:59:43 [kasei]
(and will pick up phone when I need to speak next :)
14:59:57 [LukeWM]
Zakim, ??P13 is me
14:59:57 [Zakim]
+LukeWM; got it
15:00:03 [AndyS]
zakim, IPCaller is me
15:00:03 [Zakim]
+AndyS; got it
15:00:09 [Zakim]
15:00:13 [Zakim]
+ +1.312.863.aacc
15:00:14 [AlexPassant]
Zakim: ??P14 is me
15:00:17 [SteveH]
SteveH has joined #sparql
15:00:21 [bglimm]
bglimm has joined #sparql
15:00:30 [dcharbon2]
dcharbon2 has joined #sparql
15:00:42 [LeeF]
zakim, who's here?
15:00:42 [Zakim]
On the phone I see kasei, LeeF, AndyS, +49.238.aabb, LukeWM, ??P14, +1.312.863.aacc
15:00:43 [pgearon]
Zakim: aacc is me
15:00:44 [Zakim]
On IRC I see dcharbon2, bglimm, SteveH, sandro, OlivierCorby, kasei, AlexPassant, AxelPolleres, Zakim, RRSAgent, LeeF, LukeWM, AndyS, ivan, karl, trackbot, iv_an_ru, pgearon,
15:00:46 [Zakim]
... KjetilK
15:00:59 [Zakim]
+ +8686528aadd
15:01:15 [bglimm]
Zakim, + 8686528aadd is me
15:01:15 [Zakim]
I don't understand '+ 8686528aadd is me', bglimm
15:01:26 [pgearon]
Zakim, +1.312.863.aacc is me
15:01:27 [bglimm]
Zakim, 8686528aadd is me
15:01:27 [Zakim]
+pgearon; got it
15:01:31 [Zakim]
sorry, bglimm, I do not recognize a party named '8686528aadd'
15:01:35 [Zakim]
+ +1.919.543.aaee
15:02:22 [LeeF]
zakim, who's on the phone?
15:02:22 [Zakim]
On the phone I see kasei, LeeF, AndyS, +49.238.aabb, LukeWM, ??P14, pgearon, +8686528aadd, +1.919.543.aaee
15:02:36 [AlexPassant]
Zakim, ??P14 is me
15:02:36 [Zakim]
+AlexPassant; got it
15:02:42 [LeeF]
zakim, aadd is bglimm
15:02:43 [Zakim]
+bglimm; got it
15:02:57 [dcharbon2]
Zakim, +1.919.543.aaee is me
15:02:57 [Zakim]
+dcharbon2; got it
15:03:15 [LeeF]
zakim, who's on the phone?
15:03:15 [Zakim]
On the phone I see kasei, LeeF, AndyS, +49.238.aabb, LukeWM, AlexPassant, pgearon, bglimm, dcharbon2
15:03:19 [ivan]
zakim, dial ivan-voip
15:03:19 [Zakim]
ok, ivan; the call is being made
15:03:21 [Zakim]
15:03:31 [Zakim]
+ +0207735aaff
15:03:43 [SteveH]
Zakim, aaff is SteveH
15:03:43 [Zakim]
+SteveH; got it
15:03:52 [Zakim]
15:04:07 [LeeF]
zakim, who's on the phone?
15:04:07 [Zakim]
On the phone I see kasei, LeeF, AndyS, +49.238.aabb, LukeWM, AlexPassant, pgearon, bglimm, dcharbon2, Ivan, SteveH, Sandro
15:04:22 [AxelPolleres]
AxelPolleres has joined #sparql
15:04:29 [chimezie]
chimezie has joined #sparql
15:04:40 [chimezie]
Zakim, passcode?
15:04:40 [Zakim]
the conference code is 77277 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.117.370.6152), chimezie
15:04:48 [LeeF]
zakim, drop aabb
15:04:48 [Zakim]
+49.238.aabb is being disconnected
15:04:49 [Zakim]
- +49.238.aabb
15:05:13 [Zakim]
15:05:28 [LeeF]
Scribenick: chimezie
15:05:31 [chimezie]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
15:05:31 [Zakim]
On the phone I see kasei, LeeF, AndyS, LukeWM, AlexPassant, pgearon, bglimm, dcharbon2, Ivan, SteveH, Sandro, Chimezie_Ogbuji
15:05:55 [Zakim]
15:05:57 [Zakim]
+ +49.238.aagg
15:05:59 [chimezie]
LeeF:Might be a short agenda
15:06:10 [LeeF]
zakim, IPCaller is Orri
15:06:10 [Zakim]
+Orri; got it
15:06:42 [LeeF]
zakim, who's speaking?
15:06:54 [Zakim]
LeeF, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: LeeF (34%), bglimm (5%), +49.238.aagg (3%)
15:07:00 [bglimm]
Zakim, mute me
15:07:00 [Zakim]
bglimm should now be muted
15:07:17 [LeeF]
zakim, aagg is OlivierCorby
15:07:17 [Zakim]
+OlivierCorby; got it
15:07:27 [LeeF]
topic: Admin
15:07:37 [LeeF]
PROPOSED: Approve minutes at
15:07:42 [bglimm]
Do we have Orri now? Because Orri was initially the IP caller
15:08:11 [LeeF]
RESOLVED: Approve minutes at
15:08:23 [LeeF]
Next meeting: 2009-12-01 @ 15:00 UK / 10:00 EST
15:08:30 [LeeF]
Regrets: AxelPolleres
15:08:45 [sandro]
I think I'm out next week
15:08:47 [SteveH]
can only do one hour
15:08:54 [LeeF]
Regrets next week: Sandro
15:09:21 [Zakim]
15:09:35 [chimezie]
RDB2RDF asked us about data definitions, etc.
15:09:40 [Zakim]
15:09:50 [chimezie]
LeeF:RDB2RDF grouped asked a few questions Axel answered
15:10:02 [chimezie]
... conversations regarding co-location of F2F. I'm skeptical
15:10:17 [chimezie]
... go ahead with planning ours and considering opportunity if arises
15:10:27 [LeeF]
15:10:58 [chimezie]
LeeF: please indicate status ASAP
15:11:04 [chimezie]
Ori: location?
15:11:23 [bglimm]
15:11:28 [Zakim]
15:11:31 [SteveH]
15:11:35 [chimezie]
LeeF: Dual location Cambridge/MA or Galway/Oxford
15:11:50 [LukeWM]
British Isles
15:11:53 [SteveH]
british isles?
15:11:56 [bglimm]
There is, either Great Britain or United Kingdom, but I can't remember which one is what
15:12:11 [Zakim]
15:12:25 [pgearon]
Both Great Britain and United Kingdom exclude Ireland
15:12:26 [AndyS]
Not GB (Eng_Soct+Wales) - "citizen of UK and GB and NI"
15:12:37 [LeeF]
15:12:41 [chimezie]
LeeF: Ivan added wiki page for tracking comments
15:12:58 [AndyS]
Classic wikipedia:
15:13:17 [chimezie]
... hopefully as comments get in, they get added here and potenential response is setup, edited, and sent to commenter
15:13:30 [chimezie]
... tracks the thread. Please try to use it, chairs will put comments there but anyone can use
15:14:03 [kasei]
i've been meaning to write a response to Leigh's serv. desc. email. Will try to do that this week.
15:14:04 [bglimm]
Zakim, unmute me
15:14:04 [Zakim]
bglimm should no longer be muted
15:14:25 [bglimm]
Zakim, mute me
15:14:25 [Zakim]
bglimm should now be muted
15:14:26 [kasei]
the linked wikipedia page has a good venn diagram :)
15:14:27 [LeeF]
topic: service description
15:14:39 [LeeF]
15:16:23 [chimezie]
Greg: Changes were WRT rough agreement from F2F conversation. Had a dataset description property that has been replaced with a default dataset and avaialble dataset properties
15:16:28 [chimezie]
... some conversation about naming
15:16:54 [chimezie]
... a default dataset and the available universe of graphs that can be used on FROM/FROM NAMED clauses
15:17:09 [chimezie]
Greg: one thing in update is URL variance of those terms
15:17:22 [LeeF]
15:17:22 [Prateek]
Prateek has joined #sparql
15:17:44 [chimezie]
... haven't committed to CVS, wanted to discuss
15:17:47 [Zakim]
+ +1.937.775.aahh
15:17:51 [chimezie]
LeeF: Easier if editors commit changes
15:17:58 [chimezie]
.. even if under discussion
15:18:03 [Prateek]
Zakim, +1.937.775.aahh is Prateek
15:18:03 [Zakim]
+Prateek; got it
15:18:42 [chimezie]
Greg: hoping ppl who needed this would chime in and drive discussion
15:19:04 [LeeF]
commit early, commit often :)
15:19:12 [chimezie]
... this suggestion was for ppl that didn't want to list the entire dataset description.
15:19:49 [chimezie]
... we can assume the URI for a dataset description is dereferencable
15:20:16 [AndyS]
Style Q: Does the linked to document notionally replace the original? (should it contain the orginal as well?)
15:20:19 [chimezie]
LeeF:who had those usecases?
15:20:50 [chimezie]
SteveH: we do have some usecases.. 10 millions of graphs
15:21:03 [chimezie]
... would like to be able to describe them.
15:21:15 [chimezie]
... not at the graph level, but want a description of the whole dataset
15:21:57 [chimezie]
Greg: default graph gives you access to all the graphs in your deployment?
15:22:00 [chimezie]
SteveH: yes
15:22:11 [AndyS]
Will the description be large? At a SPARQL endpoint?
15:22:15 [chimezie]
Greg:service desc. points to default graph - no need to describe individual graphs
15:22:52 [AndyS]
q+ to mention a large description use case
15:23:13 [chimezie]
SteveH: if it is explicitely open world, that is fine
15:23:13 [LeeF]
ack AndyS
15:23:13 [Zakim]
AndyS, you wanted to mention a large description use case
15:23:33 [chimezie]
AndyS: one case is where you have alot of statistics that goes with description to guide federated querying
15:24:33 [AndyS]
Multiple datasets is a separate issue to me
15:24:43 [chimezie]
LeeF: comfortable having single property for these kinds of datasets desc. let them be open world - and if you don't want to include the triples in serv desc, then separate via linked data approach
15:26:05 [kasei]
(bad line here -- having a bit of trouble hearing everything that's being said)
15:26:17 [chimezie]
LeeF: at F2F what was said was: if we go to a SPARQL service, there are 2 things i want
15:26:35 [chimezie]
... what is the RDF dataset the query hits if the dataset isn't specified in request?
15:26:49 [chimezie]
... specification says: up to implementation so we might want that in serv. desc.
15:27:04 [chimezie]
... other question: what are the universe of graphs names I can use in dataset description to do useful things?
15:28:10 [chimezie]
Seems very useful to me
15:29:04 [chimezie]
for service discovery, incremental querying, etc.
15:29:36 [ivan]
15:29:40 [chimezie]
AndyS: I'm concerned with framing. I would like to see an implementation that uses REGEX expressions (POWDER?)
15:29:49 [AndyS]
c.f voiD
15:30:11 [chimezie]
LeeF: we are being agnostic about things like that
15:30:28 [chimezie]
Ori: problem is that we have sites with millions of distinct graphs
15:30:31 [LeeF]
ack ivan
15:30:34 [LeeF]
15:30:36 [ivan]
15:30:41 [AndyS]
Framing I'm concerned with is "multiple datasets" rather than limiting FROM/FROM NAMED.
15:30:44 [chimezie]
Ivan: don't we have a usecase (POWDER)?
15:31:13 [chimezie]
Ivan: we can define families of resources and RDF statements valid for them, seems relevant to this conversation - POWDER handles REGEX matching of groups of URIs, for instance
15:31:52 [LeeF]
AndyS, would you be happy with renaming availableDataset as something else? availableGraphs or something like that?
15:32:05 [chimezie]
... for example we have SW logos/buttons, etc. I can describe them and prescribe a license to them in one go
15:32:07 [kasei]
ivan: is this something you think we should use directly, or continue to be agnostic about it so that someone could use powder or voiD or somethign else entirely?
15:32:11 [kasei]
15:32:14 [chimezie]
.. this is the direction we are going (in some cases)
15:33:00 [AndyS]
LeeF, yes (on the spot answer) The F2F descussion lead me down the wrong path and the email trail didn't contradict that interpretation.
15:33:11 [LeeF]
AndyS, ok, thanks
15:33:21 [LeeF]
(i didn't understand your concern until now)
15:33:31 [kasei]
i'll try to take a look at the primer.
15:33:39 [chimezie]
Ivan: uses XML format
15:34:46 [LeeF]
15:35:00 [chimezie]
Greg: this should not be contentious
15:35:42 [chimezie]
... also, is the use of available datasets should imply those are the only URIs usable in a dataset clause or is it just a mechanism to say you have descriptions from a subset
15:35:51 [chimezie]
LeeF: I don't think we can mandate one way or another
15:36:42 [chimezie]
... I think we should take an open world approach
15:36:52 [chimezie]
Greg: aren't there implementations that make CWA assumptions?
15:37:35 [chimezie]
LeeF: seems useful in general (RDF) to say a set of triples follow a CWA
15:38:40 [chimezie]
Sandro: I don't understand the semantics. there are graphs from a local cluster and names from other places
15:38:47 [chimezie]
... we can have a regex in either case
15:38:59 [chimezie]
... allowed graphs / cached graphs
15:39:22 [chimezie]
... Quad store that fetches anything in an intranet to cache
15:40:37 [chimezie]
Greg: allowed graphs is better than allowed datasets, what we are taking about are available graph descriptions
15:41:01 [chimezie]
Ori: can we say a quad store will fetch a resource if it doesn't cache it?
15:41:20 [chimezie]
Greg: discussed IRI for indicating service will dereference URLs it hasn't loaded
15:41:30 [chimezie]
Sandro: use allowed graphs for this
15:41:57 [AndyS]
q+ to ask about status of describing the dataset structure.
15:42:10 [LeeF]
ack AndyS
15:42:10 [Zakim]
AndyS, you wanted to ask about status of describing the dataset structure.
15:42:24 [AndyS]
15:42:33 [chimezie]
Andy: describing the datasets themselves...
15:42:57 [chimezie]
... there is a hope to transfer what the SPARQL WG is doing into their spec, and vice versa
15:44:14 [chimezie]
AndyS: take to email
15:45:03 [chimezie]
LeeF: time to reach agreement
15:45:21 [LeeF]
topic: abbreviated delete
15:46:35 [kjetil]
kjetil has joined #sparql
15:46:44 [chimezie]
LeeF: let us wait until next week to discuss graphs datastores, etc.
15:47:03 [chimezie]
... including conversation about USE / INCLUDING, etc.. (multiple update statements)
15:47:22 [Zakim]
15:47:29 [KjetilK]
Zakim, ??P1 is me
15:47:29 [Zakim]
+KjetilK; got it
15:47:54 [KjetilK]
Zakim, mute me
15:47:54 [Zakim]
KjetilK should now be muted
15:47:58 [chimezie]
pgearon: Where do we put the graph we are removing (inside the template or in the DELETE)?
15:48:06 [SteveH]
I'm only in favour of this abbreviate with GRAPH in templates, otherwise it's very confusing
15:48:25 [SteveH]
15:48:42 [LeeF]
why not DELETE FROM <g> WHERE { ?s ?p ?o } ?
15:49:14 [SteveH]
hos is it not confusing? what does it mean?
15:49:23 [LeeF]
DELETE { GRAPH <g> { ?s ?p ?o } }
15:49:27 [LeeF]
DELETE WHERE { GRAPH <g> { ?s ?p ?o } }
15:49:31 [SteveH]
^ yup
15:49:42 [chimezie]
remove the matched triples from the graph identified with <g>
15:49:55 [LeeF]
DELETE { GRAPH <g> { ?s ?p ?o } } WHERE { GRAPH <g> { ?s ?p ?o } }
15:50:08 [AndyS]
DELETE FROM ?g WHERE { ?s ?p ?o } ? (var for FROM)
15:50:14 [chimezie]
inclear the graph
15:50:20 [chimezie]
15:51:03 [SteveH]
+1 to abbr
15:51:04 [chimezie]
LeeF: do we want an abbreviation
15:51:06 [AndyS]
+1 to abbrev mechanism
15:51:07 [KjetilK]
+1 for abbreviation mechanism
15:51:07 [pgearon]
15:51:09 [pgearon]
15:51:13 [pgearon]
15:51:14 [KjetilK]
+100, actually :-)
15:51:14 [bglimm]
15:51:35 [pgearon]
I'd like to see an abbreviation mechanism, but keep it simple
15:51:51 [chimezie]
maybe we have that discussion first
15:52:22 [KjetilK]
15:53:08 [chimezie]
pgearon: I feel we need to nail down issues first
15:54:08 [LeeF]
ack KjetilK
15:54:10 [chimezie]
LeeF: maybe we should not do it by commitee, but have editors lead
15:55:00 [chimezie]
KjetilK: lead template identical to WHERE pattern - this is basic usecase, make sure we don't duplicate syntax
15:55:22 [pgearon]
KjetilK, this basic removal of duplication is what I've put into the document
15:55:45 [SteveH]
strawpoll on FROM and GRAPH?
15:55:46 [pgearon]
So far I've avoided issues of FILTER, etc, that have been discussed
15:55:55 [Zakim]
15:56:20 [AndyS]
Maybe having a (more) formal model of update would help.
15:56:39 [pgearon]
SteveH, I take it you're saying that you don't want to see: DELETE WHERE { GRAPH <g> { ?s ?p ?o } }
15:56:42 [SteveH]
+1 to AndyS
15:56:46 [chimezie]
SteveH: hoped it was clear enough for straw pol
15:56:51 [pgearon]
oops, I mean, that's what you DO want to see
15:57:01 [SteveH]
pgearon, yes, DO want to see that :)
15:57:09 [pgearon]
and not DELETE FROM <g> WHERE { ?s ?p ?o }
15:57:17 [SteveH]
I want to see DELETE $a WHERE $s == DELETE WHERE $a
15:57:28 [SteveH]
and I think that's only possible with GRAPH syntax
15:58:02 [KjetilK]
Zakim, mute me
15:58:02 [Zakim]
KjetilK should now be muted
15:58:04 [SteveH]
15:58:21 [chimezie]
LeeF: david will take over for Simon as coeditor on protocol document
15:58:30 [chimezie]
David: not setup yet fully
15:59:42 [Zakim]
15:59:43 [Zakim]
15:59:44 [Zakim]
15:59:44 [Zakim]
15:59:46 [Zakim]
15:59:47 [Zakim]
15:59:48 [Zakim]
15:59:49 [Zakim]
15:59:52 [Zakim]
15:59:52 [Zakim]
15:59:56 [Zakim]
15:59:59 [Zakim]
16:00:05 [Zakim]
16:06:26 [ivan]
ivan has joined #sparql
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ivan has left #sparql
16:06:59 [Zakim]
16:22:09 [OlivierCorby]
OlivierCorby has left #sparql
16:35:01 [Zakim]
disconnecting the lone participant, LukeWM, in SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM
16:35:04 [Zakim]
SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has ended
16:35:05 [Zakim]
Attendees were +1.310.453.aaaa, kasei, LeeF, +49.238.aabb, LukeWM, AndyS, +8686528aadd, pgearon, AlexPassant, bglimm, dcharbon2, Ivan, +0207735aaff, SteveH, Sandro,
16:35:07 [Zakim]
... Chimezie_Ogbuji, +49.238.aagg, Orri, OlivierCorby, Prateek, KjetilK
18:04:04 [Zakim]
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