IRC log of rif on 2009-11-24

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:54:49 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #rif
15:54:49 [RRSAgent]
logging to
15:55:28 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #rif
15:56:20 [ChrisW]
zakim, this will be rif
15:56:20 [Zakim]
ok, ChrisW; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
15:56:25 [ChrisW]
Chair: Chris Welty
15:56:37 [ChrisW]
Meeting: RIF Telecon 24-Nov-09
15:57:51 [ChrisW]
15:58:04 [mdean]
mdean has joined #rif
15:58:05 [ChrisW]
ChrisW has changed the topic to: 24 Nov RIF Telecon Agenda
15:58:37 [ChrisW]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:58:37 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ChrisW
15:58:45 [Zakim]
SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
15:58:52 [Zakim]
15:58:58 [Harold]
Harold has joined #rif
15:59:33 [Zakim]
15:59:36 [Zakim]
15:59:59 [ChrisW]
zakim, ??p5 is me
16:00:00 [Zakim]
+ChrisW; got it
16:00:47 [Zakim]
16:01:08 [josb]
josb has joined #rif
16:01:11 [Zakim]
+ +39.047.101.aaaa
16:01:12 [Harold]
zakim, [NRCC] is me
16:01:13 [Zakim]
+Harold; got it
16:01:20 [StellaMitchell]
StellaMitchell has joined #rif
16:01:59 [LeoraMorgenstern]
LeoraMorgenstern has joined #rif
16:02:00 [Zakim]
+ +1.606.784.aabb
16:02:14 [StellaMitchell]
zakim, aabb is me
16:02:14 [Zakim]
+StellaMitchell; got it
16:02:37 [ChrisW]
Scribe: StellaMitchell
16:02:46 [hak]
hak has joined #rif
16:03:11 [Zakim]
16:03:31 [Zakim]
16:03:47 [ChrisW]
last meeting minutes:
16:03:56 [ChrisW]
PROPOSED: accept last meeting minutes
16:04:03 [ChrisW]
RESOLVED: accept last meeting minutes
16:04:14 [LeoraMorgenstern]
I just sent out the minutes of the november 10 meeting.
16:04:40 [ChrisW]
TOPIC: Liason
16:04:59 [csma]
csma has joined #rif
16:05:26 [StellaMitchell]
cw: Sandro is the SPARQL team contact
16:05:34 [Zakim]
16:05:53 [csma]
zakim, ??P2 is me
16:05:53 [Zakim]
+csma; got it
16:06:03 [csma]
zakim, mute me
16:06:03 [Zakim]
csma should now be muted
16:06:05 [StellaMitchell]
sandro: SPARQL is specifying how to use inference with SPARQL, but they are considering OWL-type inference
16:06:17 [csma]
zakim, who is on the phone?
16:06:17 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Mike_Dean, ChrisW, Sandro, Harold, josb (muted), StellaMitchell, hak (muted), Leora_Morgenstern, csma (muted)
16:06:37 [josb]
Sandro, could you paste a link to the draft?
16:06:54 [MichaelKifer]
MichaelKifer has joined #rif
16:07:35 [josb]
16:07:52 [csma]
zakim, unmute me
16:07:52 [Zakim]
csma should no longer be muted
16:07:55 [Zakim]
+ +1.631.833.aacc
16:08:10 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, aacc is me
16:08:10 [Zakim]
+MichaelKifer; got it
16:08:29 [csma]
zakim, mute me
16:08:29 [Zakim]
csma should now be muted
16:08:40 [Gary]
Gary has joined #rif
16:09:13 [StellaMitchell]
cw: if people in this WG want RIF-style inference in SPARQL, they will need to get involved
16:09:25 [Zakim]
+ +1.503.533.aadd
16:09:29 [StellaMitchell]
mk: I'll take a look at SPARQL
16:09:46 [ChrisW]
16:09:47 [StellaMitchell]
cw: We requested to extend the working group
16:10:05 [Gary]
zakim, aadd is me
16:10:05 [Zakim]
+Gary; got it
16:10:40 [StellaMitchell]
...extending WG to March to reach recommendation status
16:11:09 [Leora]
Leora has joined #rif
16:11:26 [StellaMitchell]
...goal is to get out of CR by middle of January
16:12:00 [StellaMitchell]
....after out of CR and vote to go to PR, the group won't have much work to do
16:12:23 [ChrisW]
PROPOSED: Request WG extension as specified at
16:12:36 [csma]
zakim, unmute me
16:12:36 [Zakim]
csma should no longer be muted
16:12:41 [csma]
16:12:47 [csma]
16:13:30 [csma]
16:13:37 [csma]
zakim, unmute me
16:13:37 [Zakim]
csma was not muted, csma
16:13:42 [csma]
zakim, mute me
16:13:42 [Zakim]
csma should now be muted
16:13:46 [Harold]
"... the CR Exit Criteria do not appear to be met" might sound a bit too weak.
16:13:53 [DaveReynolds]
DaveReynolds has joined #rif
16:14:01 [Leora]
It's also ungrammatical
16:14:58 [csma]
16:15:03 [StellaMitchell]
16:15:04 [Gary]
16:15:04 [sandro]
sandro has joined #rif
16:15:05 [hak]
16:15:05 [Leora]
16:15:06 [mdean]
16:15:08 [sandro]
16:15:10 [MichaelKifer]
16:15:11 [ChrisW]
16:15:11 [Harold]
16:15:13 [josb]
16:15:23 [Leora]
(I find it amusing that Chris sounds kind of like God in films)
16:15:46 [ChrisW]
RESOLVED: Request WG extension as specified at
16:15:50 [csma]
God with the flu, actually
16:16:12 [ChrisW]
TOPIC: Action Review
16:16:22 [Zakim]
16:16:24 [sandro]
RRSAgent, pointer?
16:16:24 [RRSAgent]
16:16:49 [sandro]
rrsagent, make logs public
16:16:50 [csma]
continued, I think
16:17:02 [csma]
zakim, unmute me
16:17:02 [Zakim]
csma should no longer be muted
16:17:27 [ChrisW]
close action-947
16:17:27 [trackbot]
ACTION-947 Send email to implementors asking for test results. closed
16:17:54 [StellaMitchell]
close action-946
16:17:54 [trackbot]
ACTION-946 Put syntax of imports on next agenda closed
16:18:00 [StellaMitchell]
close action-944
16:18:00 [trackbot]
ACTION-944 Summarize issue of imports argument and propose a solution closed
16:18:20 [StellaMitchell]
close action-942
16:18:20 [trackbot]
ACTION-942 Draft reponse to TK3 (Thomas Krekeler) closed
16:19:47 [csma]
@stella, you are right, I forgot about it (I had champagne just before the meeting, hips!)
16:20:32 [csma]
close action-948
16:20:32 [trackbot]
ACTION-948 Modify retract case. closed
16:20:44 [csma]
zakim, mute me
16:20:44 [Zakim]
csma should now be muted
16:23:32 [StellaMitchell]
StellaMitchell has joined #rif
16:23:37 [StellaMitchell]
close action-941
16:23:37 [trackbot]
ACTION-941 Draft reply to EM3 (David Mott: question on FLD) closed
16:23:42 [StellaMitchell]
close action-943
16:23:42 [trackbot]
ACTION-943 Send email to Jos regarding Ian Horrock's public comments on discussion of OWL closed
16:23:50 [csma]
will do
16:24:01 [ChrisW]
action: csma to send response DM3
16:24:01 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-949 - Send response DM3 [on Christian de Sainte Marie - due 2009-12-01].
16:24:27 [csma]
16:25:11 [StellaMitchell]
close action-937
16:25:12 [trackbot]
ACTION-937 Draft reply to public comment CD2 closed
16:25:20 [ChrisW]
action: csma to send response cd2
16:25:20 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-950 - Send response cd2 [on Christian de Sainte Marie - due 2009-12-01].
16:25:46 [csma]
935, 932 are continued
16:26:07 [csma]
zakim, unmute me
16:26:07 [Zakim]
csma should no longer be muted
16:26:26 [csma]
zakim, mute me
16:26:26 [Zakim]
csma should now be muted
16:27:31 [StellaMitchell]
close action-930
16:27:31 [trackbot]
ACTION-930 Look at closed
16:28:20 [josb]
zakim, unmute me
16:28:20 [Zakim]
josb should no longer be muted
16:28:51 [StellaMitchell]
jos: working on proofs for action 831
16:29:03 [hak]
continued ... eventually I'll get enough time to get back into it and catch up with all the changes
16:29:19 [hak]
16:29:30 [sandro]
16:29:30 [trackbot]
ACTION-152 -- Paul Vincent to propose test cases for UC1 -- due 2008-01-15 -- OPEN
16:29:30 [trackbot]
16:29:54 [csma]
zakim, unmute me
16:29:54 [Zakim]
csma should no longer be muted
16:31:36 [ChrisW]
TOPIC: Public Comments
16:32:22 [DaveReynolds]
16:33:21 [StellaMitchell]
dave: I responded to some public comments directly, and just want to make sure this is recorded properly
16:33:23 [csma]
Ok, I did not see it
16:33:47 [StellaMitchell]
cw: anything else on public comments?
16:33:54 [ChrisW]
TOPIC: XML Syntax of import
16:34:20 [ChrisW]
16:35:01 [StellaMitchell]
cw: harold sent the email above discussing the xml syntax for imports
16:35:13 [StellaMitchell]
...any discussion about this?
16:35:14 [csma]
zakim, unmute me
16:35:14 [Zakim]
csma was not muted, csma
16:36:54 [StellaMitchell]
csma: I don't prefer one syntax over the other, but I am concerned about undoing a resolution that we made at a F2F
16:37:53 [StellaMitchell]
cw: we already agreed to revisit the syntax, and we did agree to have a striped xml syntax in general
16:38:28 [StellaMitchell]
cw: Gary, Sandro, what are your thoughts on this syntax?
16:39:05 [StellaMitchell]
Gary: the proposal is ok with me
16:39:22 [StellaMitchell]
Sandro: Harold, can we discuss for a minute?
16:39:33 [ChrisW]
zakim, mute sandro
16:39:33 [Zakim]
Sandro should now be muted
16:41:00 [StellaMitchell]
csma: the point here is whether we overturn a resolution
16:41:16 [StellaMitchell]
harold: I think the resolution was misunderstood by me and others at the time it was made
16:42:03 [csma]
16:42:08 [csma]
16:42:12 [csma]
16:42:17 [csma]
16:42:20 [csma]
16:42:28 [csma]
16:42:34 [csma]
16:42:38 [StellaMitchell]
csma: current syntax is above
16:42:49 [csma]
<Const type="xs:anyURI">
16:42:53 [csma]
16:42:58 [csma]
16:43:04 [csma]
16:43:09 [csma]
16:43:37 [sandro]
zakim, unmute me
16:43:37 [Zakim]
Sandro should no longer be muted
16:43:37 [ChrisW]
ack sandro
16:43:53 [StellaMitchell]
csma: syntax according to resolution is not striped, harold's proposal is striped
16:44:26 [StellaMitchell]
sandro: I understood the resolution at the time we made it, because we thought it was too verbose to maintain striping in this case
16:44:31 [StellaMitchell]
...I could go other way
16:45:06 [StellaMitchell]
...but if we go to the striped form, I have 2 concerns 1) link instead of const 2) anyURI instead of rif:iri
16:45:13 [StellaMitchell]
16:46:10 [StellaMitchell]
harold: location and profiles cannot be domain elements that's why they are not rif:ifi. they were originally rif:iri and that's why we changed them
16:47:22 [StellaMitchell]
cw: link is a new tag proposed to contain profile and location
16:47:37 [AdrianP]
AdrianP has joined #rif
16:47:55 [sandro]
16:48:06 [StellaMitchell]
cw: did owl2 make a change from how owl1 handled imports?
16:48:27 [StellaMitchell]
sandro: above is the owl2 import text
16:48:38 [MichaelKifer]
I like the LINK proposal
16:48:45 [StellaMitchell]
cw: so it's metadata on the ontology, not part of the domain
16:48:49 [Zakim]
16:49:01 [AdrianP]
Zakim, ??P12 is me
16:49:01 [Zakim]
+AdrianP; got it
16:49:27 [StellaMitchell]
sandro: since it's a directive, I think it's ok to use const and it won't be part of the domain
16:50:12 [StellaMitchell]
cw: we didn't contextualize const
16:50:26 [AdrianP]
Zakim, mute me
16:50:26 [Zakim]
AdrianP should now be muted
16:51:13 [StellaMitchell]
sandro: link instead of const means implementers need to write more code, also worried about distinguishing the iris from rif:ifis
16:52:16 [Harold]
Currently the BLD XSD says:
16:52:17 [Harold]
<xs:element name="location">
16:52:17 [Harold]
16:52:17 [Harold]
16:52:17 [Harold]
<xs:element name="Const" type="ANYURICONST.type"/> <!-- type="&xs;anyURI" -->
16:52:17 [Harold]
16:52:18 [Harold]
16:52:21 [Harold]
16:52:46 [StellaMitchell]
sandro: my 1st choice: pre-resolution, 2nd: resolution, 3rd current proposal
16:52:57 [csma]
zakim, unmute me
16:52:57 [Zakim]
csma was not muted, csma
16:53:51 [StellaMitchell]
cw: so Sandro will consider this more and we'll try to resolve in the next telecon
16:53:52 [ChrisW]
TOPIC: Implementations
16:54:27 [sandro]
er, no, my 1st choice is Portland (resolution), 2nd choice (Const/rif:iri), 3rd choice (Link/anyURI)
16:56:29 [ChrisW]
action: mdean to get implementation report for SIL
16:56:29 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-951 - Get implementation report for SIL [on Mike Dean - due 2009-12-01].
16:56:46 [MichaelKifer]
I also sent a message about an implementation of FLD.
16:57:18 [StellaMitchell]
csma: I asked Ontoprise for more information about their implementation, but I didn't get a reply yet
16:58:35 [StellaMitchell]
cw: also we got a message about fuxi, but it wasn't a complete implemenation report
16:59:00 [ChrisW]
action: sandro to follow up with chime on fuxi implementation report
16:59:00 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-952 - Follow up with chime on fuxi implementation report [on Sandro Hawke - due 2009-12-01].
17:00:25 [MichaelKifer]
17:01:11 [ChrisW]
ack mi
17:03:28 [ChrisW]
action: harold to contact josderoo about implementation report and test case submission for eye
17:03:28 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-953 - Contact josderoo about implementation report and test case submission for eye [on Harold Boley - due 2009-12-01].
17:04:16 [StellaMitchell]
cw: bld and core are ok for exit criteria
17:05:18 [StellaMitchell]
...and we have a detailed implementation report from RIFle that says it's PRD
17:05:49 [StellaMitchell]
cw: csma, do you implement all of DTB?
17:05:54 [csma]
17:05:56 [StellaMitchell]
csma: no, need to list them
17:06:44 [StellaMitchell]
csma: Gary pointed out a bug with conflict resolution strategy
17:07:08 [StellaMitchell]'s a bug, so shoudn't require another last call, but I need to discuss more with Gary
17:07:54 [ChrisW]
17:08:17 [ChrisW]
action: gary to submit implementation report
17:08:17 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-954 - Submit implementation report [on Gary Hallmark - due 2009-12-01].
17:08:50 [csma]
I _think_ it is a bug, but other may disagree, and think that the modification is a change of design :-(
17:09:09 [StellaMitchell]
cw: we're on track for FLD implementations also
17:09:38 [StellaMitchell]
cw: so we're at risk for 1) DTB (2 implemenations for every data type) and 2) SWC
17:10:05 [josb]
sure, OWL 2 RL is OWL
17:10:19 [StellaMitchell]
cw: fuxi says it supports owl2-rl, Sando can you get some clarification about that?
17:10:42 [StellaMitchell]
...does he also support RDF
17:12:05 [StellaMitchell]
sandro: about the 2 risks above (DTB, SWC), I would like to see people's test case results
17:12:21 [StellaMitchell]
cw: csma, will you ask ontroprise about RDF/OWL?
17:12:24 [StellaMitchell]
csma: yes
17:12:33 [StellaMitchell]
mike: and SILK has some support for OWL
17:12:45 [StellaMitchell]
cw: ok, so SWC is looking ok
17:13:21 [josb]
Ontoprise's KAON2 in principle already supports OWL with DL-safe rules, but I don't know whether they plan to build a RIF interface for it
17:13:31 [csma]
\me, do you mean "before JRules will support OWL"?
17:13:45 [csma]
zakim, mute me
17:13:45 [Zakim]
csma should now be muted
17:13:50 [StellaMitchell]
cw: so we should contact each implementation to catalog what DTB datatypes they support - best to ask what they don't support
17:15:28 [StellaMitchell]
cw: we don't actually require test results. So, ask implementions if they have test results and if they don't what datatypes they do not support
17:16:06 [csma]
Zakim, unmute me
17:16:06 [Zakim]
csma should no longer be muted
17:18:41 [ChrisW]
action: josb to contact Adrian Marte at STI2 about test cases and DTB support
17:18:41 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-955 - Contact Adrian Marte at STI2 about test cases and DTB support [on Jos de Bruijn - due 2009-12-01].
17:19:15 [StellaMitchell]
cw: I think we're at risk for DTB
17:19:20 [Zakim]
17:19:25 [ChrisW]
17:20:17 [Zakim]
17:20:40 [Gary]
I have done the numeric builtins and the list builtins, expect to complete dates and strings soon...
17:20:50 [ChrisW]
TOPIC: test cases
17:21:28 [ChrisW]
17:22:37 [ChrisW]
action: stella to move hexbinary TC with base64binary
17:22:37 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-956 - Move hexbinary TC with base64binary [on Stella Mitchell - due 2009-12-01].
17:23:08 [Gary]
+1 for builtins numeric minus the hexBinary
17:23:16 [ChrisW]
PROPOSED: accept with hexbinary removed
17:23:26 [josb]
17:23:28 [StellaMitchell]
17:23:28 [ChrisW]
17:23:31 [AdrianP]
17:23:32 [mdean]
17:23:32 [Harold]
17:23:35 [csma]
17:23:36 [hak]
17:23:36 [MichaelKifer]
17:23:37 [ChrisW]
RESOLVED: accept with hexbinary removed
17:23:46 [csma]
zakim, who is on the phone?
17:23:46 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Mike_Dean, Sandro, Harold, josb, StellaMitchell, hak (muted), Leora_Morgenstern, csma, MichaelKifer, Gary, DaveReynolds, AdrianP (muted), ChrisW
17:23:57 [csma]
zakim, mute me
17:23:57 [Zakim]
csma should now be muted
17:24:01 [ChrisW]
17:24:13 [Gary]
+1 for bultins list
17:24:21 [hak]
17:24:35 [StellaMitchell]
17:24:46 [josb]
17:25:03 [sandro]
17:25:09 [ChrisW]
PROPOSED: accept
17:25:11 [DaveReynolds]
17:25:14 [ChrisW]
17:25:19 [Harold]
17:25:20 [josb]
17:25:21 [ChrisW]
RESOLVED: accept
17:25:21 [MichaelKifer]
17:25:21 [AdrianP]
17:25:45 [ChrisW]
17:26:41 [csma]
zakim, unmute me
17:26:41 [Zakim]
csma should no longer be muted
17:27:47 [csma]
zakim, mute me
17:27:47 [Zakim]
csma should now be muted
17:28:40 [ChrisW]
17:28:43 [josb]
17:28:44 [sandro]
17:28:44 [hak]
17:28:46 [ChrisW]
17:28:47 [Harold]
17:28:48 [MichaelKifer]
17:28:51 [DaveReynolds]
17:28:57 [ChrisW]
RESOLVED: accept
17:28:57 [Gary]
17:29:16 [Gary]
Gary has joined #rif
17:30:44 [AdrianP]
17:30:51 [Zakim]
17:31:14 [hak]
+1 to adjourn
17:31:21 [Zakim]
17:31:22 [Zakim]
17:31:24 [Zakim]
17:31:27 [Zakim]
17:31:29 [Zakim]
17:31:29 [Zakim]
17:31:31 [csma]
zakim, unmute me
17:31:31 [Zakim]
csma should no longer be muted
17:31:33 [Zakim]
17:31:34 [Zakim]
17:31:35 [MichaelKifer]
MichaelKifer has left #rif
17:31:39 [ChrisW]
rrsagent, make logs public
17:31:43 [ChrisW]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:31:43 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ChrisW
17:32:08 [ChrisW]
zakim, list attendees
17:32:08 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Mike_Dean, Sandro, ChrisW, +39.047.101.aaaa, Harold, josb, +1.606.784.aabb, StellaMitchell, Leora_Morgenstern, hak, csma, +1.631.833.aacc,
17:32:12 [Zakim]
... MichaelKifer, +1.503.533.aadd, Gary, DaveReynolds, AdrianP
17:32:15 [ChrisW]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:32:15 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ChrisW
17:33:03 [sandro]
I can see them.
17:33:15 [Zakim]
17:34:54 [Zakim]
17:34:59 [Zakim]
17:35:02 [Zakim]
17:35:04 [Zakim]
SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
17:35:05 [Zakim]
Attendees were Mike_Dean, Sandro, ChrisW, +39.047.101.aaaa, Harold, josb, +1.606.784.aabb, StellaMitchell, Leora_Morgenstern, hak, csma, +1.631.833.aacc, MichaelKifer,
17:35:07 [Zakim]
... +1.503.533.aadd, Gary, DaveReynolds, AdrianP
19:59:19 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #rif
21:32:54 [AxelPolleres]
AxelPolleres has joined #rif