15:54:49 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rif
15:54:49 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/11/24-rif-irc
15:55:28 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rif
15:56:20 <ChrisW> zakim, this will be rif
15:56:20 <Zakim> ok, ChrisW; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
15:56:25 <ChrisW> Chair: Chris Welty
15:56:37 <ChrisW> Meeting: RIF Telecon 24-Nov-09
15:57:51 <ChrisW> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Nov/0009.html
15:58:04 <mdean> mdean has joined #rif
15:58:05 <ChrisW> ChrisW has changed the topic to: 24 Nov RIF Telecon Agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Nov/0009.html
15:58:37 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make minutes
15:58:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/24-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
15:58:45 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
15:58:52 <Zakim> +Mike_Dean
15:58:58 <Harold> Harold has joined #rif
15:59:33 <Zakim> +??P5
15:59:36 <Zakim> +Sandro
15:59:59 <ChrisW> zakim, ??p5 is me
16:00:00 <Zakim> +ChrisW; got it
16:00:47 <Zakim> +[NRCC]
16:01:08 <josb> josb has joined #rif
16:01:11 <Zakim> + +39.047.101.aaaa
16:01:12 <Harold> zakim, [NRCC] is me
16:01:13 <Zakim> +Harold; got it
16:01:20 <StellaMitchell> StellaMitchell has joined #rif
16:01:59 <LeoraMorgenstern> LeoraMorgenstern has joined #rif
16:02:00 <Zakim> + +1.606.784.aabb
16:02:14 <StellaMitchell> zakim, aabb is me
16:02:14 <Zakim> +StellaMitchell; got it
16:02:37 <ChrisW> Scribe: StellaMitchell
16:02:46 <hak> hak has joined #rif
16:03:11 <Zakim> +Hassan_Ait-Kaci
16:03:31 <Zakim> +Leora_Morgenstern
16:03:47 <ChrisW> last meeting minutes: http://www.w3.org/2009/10/27-rif-minutes.html
16:03:56 <ChrisW> PROPOSED: accept last meeting minutes
16:04:03 <ChrisW> RESOLVED: accept last meeting minutes
16:04:14 <LeoraMorgenstern> I just sent out the minutes of the november 10 meeting.
16:04:40 <ChrisW> TOPIC: Liason
16:04:59 <csma> csma has joined #rif
16:05:26 <StellaMitchell> cw: Sandro is the SPARQL team contact
16:05:34 <Zakim> +??P2
16:05:53 <csma> zakim, ??P2 is me
16:05:53 <Zakim> +csma; got it
16:06:03 <csma> zakim, mute me
16:06:03 <Zakim> csma should now be muted
16:06:05 <StellaMitchell> sandro: SPARQL is specifying how to use inference with SPARQL, but they are considering OWL-type inference
16:06:17 <csma> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:06:17 <Zakim> On the phone I see Mike_Dean, ChrisW, Sandro, Harold, josb (muted), StellaMitchell, hak (muted), Leora_Morgenstern, csma (muted)
16:06:37 <josb> Sandro, could you paste a link to the draft?
16:06:54 <MichaelKifer> MichaelKifer has joined #rif
16:07:35 <josb> yes!
16:07:52 <csma> zakim, unmute me
16:07:52 <Zakim> csma should no longer be muted
16:07:55 <Zakim> + +1.631.833.aacc
16:08:10 <MichaelKifer> zakim, aacc is me
16:08:10 <Zakim> +MichaelKifer; got it
16:08:29 <csma> zakim, mute me
16:08:29 <Zakim> csma should now be muted
16:08:40 <Gary> Gary has joined #rif
16:09:13 <StellaMitchell> cw: if people in this WG want RIF-style inference in SPARQL, they will need to get involved
16:09:25 <Zakim> + +1.503.533.aadd
16:09:29 <StellaMitchell> mk:  I'll take a look at SPARQL
16:09:46 <ChrisW> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Extension_Request_2009b
16:09:47 <StellaMitchell> cw: We requested to extend the working group
16:10:05 <Gary> zakim, aadd is me
16:10:05 <Zakim> +Gary; got it
16:10:40 <StellaMitchell> ...extending WG to March to reach recommendation status
16:11:09 <Leora> Leora has joined #rif
16:11:26 <StellaMitchell> ...goal is to get out of CR by middle of January
16:12:00 <StellaMitchell> ....after out of CR and vote to go to PR, the group won't have much work to do
16:12:23 <ChrisW> PROPOSED: Request WG extension as specified at http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Extension_Request_2009b
16:12:36 <csma> zakim, unmute me
16:12:36 <Zakim> csma should no longer be muted
16:12:41 <csma> q
16:12:47 <csma> q+
16:13:30 <csma> q-
16:13:37 <csma> zakim, unmute me
16:13:37 <Zakim> csma was not muted, csma
16:13:42 <csma> zakim, mute me
16:13:42 <Zakim> csma should now be muted
16:13:46 <Harold> "... the CR Exit Criteria do not appear to be met" might sound a bit too weak.
16:13:53 <DaveReynolds> DaveReynolds has joined #rif
16:14:01 <Leora> It's also ungrammatical
16:14:58 <csma> +1
16:15:03 <StellaMitchell> +1
16:15:04 <Gary> +1
16:15:04 <sandro> sandro has joined #rif
16:15:05 <hak> +1
16:15:05 <Leora> +1
16:15:06 <mdean> +1
16:15:08 <sandro> +1
16:15:10 <MichaelKifer> +1
16:15:11 <ChrisW> +1
16:15:11 <Harold> +1
16:15:13 <josb> +1
16:15:23 <Leora> (I find it amusing that Chris sounds kind of like God in films)
16:15:46 <ChrisW> RESOLVED: Request WG extension as specified at http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Extension_Request_2009b
16:15:50 <csma> God with the flu, actually
16:16:12 <ChrisW> TOPIC: Action Review
16:16:22 <Zakim> +??P11
16:16:24 <sandro> RRSAgent, pointer?
16:16:24 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2009/11/24-rif-irc#T16-16-24
16:16:49 <sandro> rrsagent, make logs public
16:16:50 <csma> continued, I think
16:17:02 <csma> zakim, unmute me
16:17:02 <Zakim> csma should no longer be muted
16:17:27 <ChrisW> close action-947
16:17:27 <trackbot> ACTION-947 Send email to implementors asking for test results. closed
16:17:54 <StellaMitchell> close action-946
16:17:54 <trackbot> ACTION-946 Put syntax of imports on next agenda closed
16:18:00 <StellaMitchell> close action-944
16:18:00 <trackbot> ACTION-944 Summarize issue of imports argument and propose a solution closed
16:18:20 <StellaMitchell> close action-942
16:18:20 <trackbot> ACTION-942 Draft reponse to TK3 (Thomas Krekeler) closed
16:19:47 <csma> @stella, you are right, I forgot about it (I had champagne just before the meeting, hips!)
16:20:32 <csma> close action-948
16:20:32 <trackbot> ACTION-948 Modify retract case. closed
16:20:44 <csma> zakim, mute me
16:20:44 <Zakim> csma should now be muted
16:23:32 <StellaMitchell> StellaMitchell has joined #rif
16:23:37 <StellaMitchell> close action-941
16:23:37 <trackbot> ACTION-941 Draft reply to EM3 (David Mott: question on FLD) closed
16:23:42 <StellaMitchell> close action-943
16:23:42 <trackbot> ACTION-943 Send email to Jos regarding Ian Horrock's public comments on discussion of OWL closed
16:23:50 <csma> will do
16:24:01 <ChrisW> action: csma to send response DM3
16:24:01 <trackbot> Created ACTION-949 - Send response DM3 [on Christian de Sainte Marie - due 2009-12-01].
16:24:27 <csma> continued
16:25:11 <StellaMitchell> close action-937
16:25:12 <trackbot> ACTION-937 Draft reply to public comment CD2 closed
16:25:20 <ChrisW> action: csma to send response cd2
16:25:20 <trackbot> Created ACTION-950 - Send response cd2 [on Christian de Sainte Marie - due 2009-12-01].
16:25:46 <csma> 935, 932 are continued
16:26:07 <csma> zakim, unmute me
16:26:07 <Zakim> csma should no longer be muted
16:26:26 <csma> zakim, mute me
16:26:26 <Zakim> csma should now be muted
16:27:31 <StellaMitchell> close action-930
16:27:31 <trackbot> ACTION-930 Look at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-comments/2009Sep/0009.html closed
16:28:20 <josb> zakim, unmute me
16:28:20 <Zakim> josb should no longer be muted
16:28:51 <StellaMitchell> jos: working on proofs for action 831
16:29:03 <hak> continued ... eventually I'll get enough time to get back into it and catch up with all the changes
16:29:19 <hak> :-)
16:29:30 <sandro> action-152?
16:29:30 <trackbot> ACTION-152 -- Paul Vincent to propose test cases for UC1 -- due 2008-01-15 -- OPEN
16:29:30 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/track/actions/152
16:29:54 <csma> zakim, unmute me
16:29:54 <Zakim> csma should no longer be muted
16:31:36 <ChrisW> TOPIC: Public Comments
16:32:22 <DaveReynolds> q+
16:33:21 <StellaMitchell> dave:  I responded to some public comments directly, and just want to make sure this is recorded properly
16:33:23 <csma> Ok, I did not see it
16:33:47 <StellaMitchell> cw: anything else on public comments?
16:33:54 <ChrisW> TOPIC: XML Syntax of import
16:34:20 <ChrisW> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Nov/0056.html
16:35:01 <StellaMitchell> cw: harold sent the email above discussing the xml syntax for imports
16:35:13 <StellaMitchell> ...any discussion about this?
16:35:14 <csma> zakim, unmute me
16:35:14 <Zakim> csma was not muted, csma
16:36:54 <StellaMitchell> csma: I don't prefer one syntax over the other, but I am concerned about undoing a resolution that we made at a F2F
16:37:53 <StellaMitchell> cw: we already agreed to revisit the syntax, and we did agree to have a striped xml syntax in general
16:38:28 <StellaMitchell> cw: Gary, Sandro, what are your thoughts on this syntax?
16:39:05 <StellaMitchell> Gary:  the proposal is ok with me
16:39:22 <StellaMitchell> Sandro: Harold, can we discuss for a minute?
16:39:33 <ChrisW> zakim, mute sandro
16:39:33 <Zakim> Sandro should now be muted
16:41:00 <StellaMitchell> csma:  the point here is whether we overturn a resolution
16:41:16 <StellaMitchell> harold: I think the resolution was misunderstood by me and others at the time it was made
16:42:03 <csma> <Import>
16:42:08 <csma>   <location>
16:42:12 <csma>    uri
16:42:17 <csma>   </location
16:42:20 <csma> </Import>
16:42:28 <csma> <Import>
16:42:34 <csma>   <location>
16:42:38 <StellaMitchell> csma: current syntax is above
16:42:49 <csma>     <Const type="xs:anyURI">
16:42:53 <csma>      uri
16:42:58 <csma>      </Const>
16:43:04 <csma>     </location>
16:43:09 <csma> </Import>
16:43:37 <sandro> zakim, unmute me
16:43:37 <Zakim> Sandro should no longer be muted
16:43:37 <ChrisW> ack sandro
16:43:53 <StellaMitchell> csma:  syntax according to resolution is not striped, harold's proposal is striped
16:44:26 <StellaMitchell> sandro: I understood the resolution at the time we made it, because we thought it was too verbose to maintain striping in this case
16:44:31 <StellaMitchell> ...I could go other way
16:45:06 <StellaMitchell> ...but if we go to the striped form, I have 2 concerns 1) link instead of const 2) anyURI instead of rif:iri
16:45:13 <StellaMitchell> s/other/either/
16:46:10 <StellaMitchell> harold: location and profiles cannot be domain elements that's why they are not rif:ifi. they were originally rif:iri and that's why we changed them
16:47:22 <StellaMitchell> cw:  link is a new tag proposed to contain profile and location
16:47:37 <AdrianP> AdrianP has joined #rif
16:47:55 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/TR/owl2-syntax/#Imports
16:48:06 <StellaMitchell> cw: did owl2 make a change from how owl1 handled imports?
16:48:27 <StellaMitchell> sandro: above is the owl2 import text
16:48:38 <MichaelKifer> I like the LINK proposal
16:48:45 <StellaMitchell> cw: so it's metadata on the ontology, not part of the domain
16:48:49 <Zakim> +??P12
16:49:01 <AdrianP> Zakim, ??P12 is me
16:49:01 <Zakim> +AdrianP; got it
16:49:27 <StellaMitchell> sandro: since it's a directive, I think it's ok to use const and it won't be part of the domain
16:50:12 <StellaMitchell> cw: we didn't contextualize const
16:50:26 <AdrianP> Zakim, mute me
16:50:26 <Zakim> AdrianP should now be muted
16:51:13 <StellaMitchell> sandro:  link instead of const means implementers need to write more code, also worried about distinguishing the iris from rif:ifis
16:52:16 <Harold> Currently the BLD XSD says:
16:52:17 <Harold>   <xs:element name="location">
16:52:17 <Harold>     <xs:complexType>
16:52:17 <Harold>       <xs:sequence>
16:52:17 <Harold>         <xs:element name="Const" type="ANYURICONST.type"/>   <!-- type="&xs;anyURI" -->
16:52:17 <Harold>       </xs:sequence>
16:52:18 <Harold>     </xs:complexType>
16:52:21 <Harold>   </xs:element>
16:52:46 <StellaMitchell> sandro:  my 1st choice: pre-resolution, 2nd: resolution, 3rd current proposal
16:52:57 <csma> zakim, unmute me
16:52:57 <Zakim> csma was not muted, csma
16:53:51 <StellaMitchell> cw: so Sandro will consider this more and we'll try to resolve in the next telecon
16:53:52 <ChrisW> TOPIC: Implementations
16:54:27 <sandro> er, no, my 1st choice is Portland (resolution),  2nd choice (Const/rif:iri), 3rd choice (Link/anyURI)
16:56:29 <ChrisW> action: mdean to get implementation report for SIL
16:56:29 <trackbot> Created ACTION-951 - Get implementation report for SIL [on Mike Dean - due 2009-12-01].
16:56:46 <MichaelKifer> I also sent a message about an implementation of FLD.
16:57:18 <StellaMitchell> csma: I asked Ontoprise for more information about their implementation, but I didn't get a reply yet
16:58:35 <StellaMitchell> cw: also we got a message about fuxi, but it wasn't a complete implemenation report
16:59:00 <ChrisW> action: sandro to follow up with chime on fuxi implementation report
16:59:00 <trackbot> Created ACTION-952 - Follow up with chime on fuxi implementation report [on Sandro Hawke - due 2009-12-01].
17:00:25 <MichaelKifer> q+
17:01:11 <ChrisW> ack mi
17:03:28 <ChrisW> action: harold to contact josderoo about implementation report and test case submission for eye
17:03:28 <trackbot> Created ACTION-953 - Contact josderoo about implementation report and test case submission for eye [on Harold Boley - due 2009-12-01].
17:04:16 <StellaMitchell> cw: bld and core are ok for exit criteria
17:05:18 <StellaMitchell> ...and we have a detailed implementation report from RIFle that says it's PRD
17:05:49 <StellaMitchell> cw:  csma, do you implement all of DTB?
17:05:54 <csma> q+
17:05:56 <StellaMitchell> csma: no, need to list them
17:06:44 <StellaMitchell> csma: Gary pointed out a bug with conflict resolution strategy
17:07:08 <StellaMitchell> ...it's a bug, so shoudn't require another last call, but I need to discuss more with Gary
17:07:54 <ChrisW> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Implementations
17:08:17 <ChrisW> action: gary to submit implementation report
17:08:17 <trackbot> Created ACTION-954 - Submit implementation report [on Gary Hallmark - due 2009-12-01].
17:08:50 <csma> I _think_ it is a bug, but other may disagree, and think that the modification is a change of design :-(
17:09:09 <StellaMitchell> cw: we're on track for FLD implementations also
17:09:38 <StellaMitchell> cw: so we're at risk for 1) DTB (2 implemenations for every data type) and 2) SWC
17:10:05 <josb> sure, OWL 2 RL is OWL
17:10:19 <StellaMitchell> cw: fuxi says it supports owl2-rl, Sando can you get some clarification about that?
17:10:42 <StellaMitchell> ...does he also support RDF
17:12:05 <StellaMitchell> sandro: about the 2 risks above (DTB, SWC), I would like to see people's test case results
17:12:21 <StellaMitchell> cw: csma, will you ask ontroprise about RDF/OWL?
17:12:24 <StellaMitchell> csma: yes
17:12:33 <StellaMitchell> mike: and SILK has some support for OWL
17:12:45 <StellaMitchell> cw: ok, so SWC is looking ok
17:13:21 <josb> Ontoprise's KAON2 in principle already supports OWL with DL-safe rules, but I don't know whether they plan to build a RIF interface for it
17:13:31 <csma> \me, do you mean "before JRules will support OWL"?
17:13:45 <csma> zakim, mute me
17:13:45 <Zakim> csma should now be muted
17:13:50 <StellaMitchell> cw: so we should contact each implementation to catalog what DTB datatypes they support - best to ask what they don't support
17:15:28 <StellaMitchell> cw: we don't actually require test results. So, ask implementions if they have test results and if they don't what datatypes they do not support
17:16:06 <csma> Zakim, unmute me
17:16:06 <Zakim> csma should no longer be muted
17:18:41 <ChrisW> action: josb to contact Adrian Marte at STI2 about test cases and DTB support
17:18:41 <trackbot> Created ACTION-955 - Contact Adrian Marte at STI2 about test cases and DTB support [on Jos de Bruijn - due 2009-12-01].
17:19:15 <StellaMitchell> cw: I think we're at risk for DTB
17:19:20 <Zakim> -ChrisW
17:19:25 <ChrisW> hmmm
17:20:17 <Zakim> +ChrisW
17:20:40 <Gary> I have done the numeric builtins and the list builtins, expect to complete dates and strings soon...
17:20:50 <ChrisW> TOPIC: test cases
17:21:28 <ChrisW> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Builtins_Numeric
17:22:37 <ChrisW> action: stella to move hexbinary TC with base64binary
17:22:37 <trackbot> Created ACTION-956 - Move hexbinary TC with base64binary [on Stella Mitchell - due 2009-12-01].
17:23:08 <Gary> +1 for builtins numeric minus the hexBinary
17:23:16 <ChrisW> PROPOSED: accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Builtins_Numeric with hexbinary removed
17:23:26 <josb> +1
17:23:28 <StellaMitchell> +1
17:23:28 <ChrisW> +1
17:23:31 <AdrianP> +1
17:23:32 <mdean> +1
17:23:32 <Harold> +1
17:23:35 <csma> +1
17:23:36 <hak> +1
17:23:36 <MichaelKifer> +1
17:23:37 <ChrisW> RESOLVED: accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Builtins_Numeric with hexbinary removed
17:23:46 <csma> zakim, who is on the phone?
17:23:46 <Zakim> On the phone I see Mike_Dean, Sandro, Harold, josb, StellaMitchell, hak (muted), Leora_Morgenstern, csma, MichaelKifer, Gary, DaveReynolds, AdrianP (muted), ChrisW
17:23:57 <csma> zakim, mute me
17:23:57 <Zakim> csma should now be muted
17:24:01 <ChrisW> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Builtins_List
17:24:13 <Gary> +1 for bultins list
17:24:21 <hak> +1
17:24:35 <StellaMitchell> +1
17:24:46 <josb> +1
17:25:03 <sandro> +1
17:25:09 <ChrisW> PROPOSED: accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Builtins_List
17:25:11 <DaveReynolds> +1
17:25:14 <ChrisW> +1
17:25:19 <Harold> +1
17:25:20 <josb> +1
17:25:21 <ChrisW> RESOLVED: accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Builtins_List
17:25:21 <MichaelKifer> +1
17:25:21 <AdrianP> +1
17:25:45 <ChrisW> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Builtin_literal-not-identical
17:26:41 <csma> zakim, unmute me
17:26:41 <Zakim> csma should no longer be muted
17:27:47 <csma> zakim, mute me
17:27:47 <Zakim> csma should now be muted
17:28:40 <ChrisW> PROPOSED: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Builtin_literal-not-identical
17:28:43 <josb> +1
17:28:44 <sandro> +1
17:28:44 <hak> +1
17:28:46 <ChrisW> +1
17:28:47 <Harold> +1
17:28:48 <MichaelKifer> +1
17:28:51 <DaveReynolds> +1
17:28:57 <ChrisW> RESOLVED: accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Builtin_literal-not-identical
17:28:57 <Gary> +1
17:29:16 <Gary> Gary has joined #rif
17:30:44 <AdrianP> +1
17:30:51 <Zakim> -AdrianP
17:31:14 <hak> +1 to adjourn
17:31:21 <Zakim> -Harold
17:31:22 <Zakim> -hak
17:31:24 <Zakim> -Gary
17:31:27 <Zakim> -Leora_Morgenstern
17:31:29 <Zakim> -MichaelKifer
17:31:29 <Zakim> -DaveReynolds
17:31:31 <csma> zakim, unmute me
17:31:31 <Zakim> csma should no longer be muted
17:31:33 <Zakim> -Mike_Dean
17:31:34 <Zakim> -josb
17:31:35 <MichaelKifer> MichaelKifer has left #rif
17:31:39 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make logs public
17:31:43 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make minutes
17:31:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/24-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
17:32:08 <ChrisW> zakim, list attendees
17:32:08 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Mike_Dean, Sandro, ChrisW, +39.047.101.aaaa, Harold, josb, +1.606.784.aabb, StellaMitchell, Leora_Morgenstern, hak, csma, +1.631.833.aacc,
17:32:12 <Zakim> ... MichaelKifer, +1.503.533.aadd, Gary, DaveReynolds, AdrianP
17:32:15 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make minutes
17:32:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/24-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
17:33:03 <sandro> I can see them.
17:33:15 <Zakim> -StellaMitchell
17:34:54 <Zakim> -ChrisW
17:34:59 <Zakim> -Sandro
17:35:02 <Zakim> -csma
17:35:04 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
17:35:05 <Zakim> Attendees were Mike_Dean, Sandro, ChrisW, +39.047.101.aaaa, Harold, josb, +1.606.784.aabb, StellaMitchell, Leora_Morgenstern, hak, csma, +1.631.833.aacc, MichaelKifer,
17:35:07 <Zakim> ... +1.503.533.aadd, Gary, DaveReynolds, AdrianP
19:59:19 <Zakim> Zakim has left #rif
21:32:54 <AxelPolleres> AxelPolleres has joined #rif